the moops
Footballguy
Here's a clue. Look at OBP, SLG, defense, instead of those foolish counting stats.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
LOL at BoSox..... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
- Start date
TLEF316
Footballguy
o i see now. I didnt realize that drawing walks and hitting doubles with nobody on base made you a 14 million dollar a year player. Drew is a good player, but 14 mil a year for him is absurd. If you are making 14 mil a year, you need to be driving in 100 runs and puting up allstar caliber numbers. (especially from a freaking corner outfield spot) Add in the fact that he is fragile phsyically and soft mentally, and this has disaster written all over it.
Last edited by a moderator:
the moops
Footballguy
I love this soft mentally schtick. Does he cry when he has a bad game or something? Are you just mad because he doesn't smash his helmet, or crack a water cooler with his bat when he strikesout?You do realize that there is more to baseball than hitting homeruns and getting RBI? I bet you think that Carlos Lee is worth his contract.Getting on base, no matter how you do it (yes, that includes walks) is the single most important thing in baseball. Drew is very good at that. No, he won't hit 35 homeruns. Will he drive in 100+ runs? Who knows. But batting behind Ortiz and Manny will help with those counting stats that you love so much.You also seem to ignore that he may be the best defensive rigth fielder in baseball.You hate JD Drew. Good for you.
MrBlonde
Footballguy
The thing about the being "worth" 14 million or not is really not an issue in a salary cap free system for certain teams. Unfortunately market value is stating that Drew is worth this much.
I for one was ecstatic and disturbed with his deal. I'm a huge Dodger fan and saw his $11M salary ridiculous and was happy to see it go away. No doubt he has a potent bat but his salary IMO will be better spent elswhere. We signed Schmidt and Wolf to great deals and if Drew was the casualty that was needed for this, so be it. I'm disturbed because... he actually did manage to get a significantly better deal than his already great deal.
Now if you want to talk about "not worth" their salary lets talk about Gil Meche.... And like the previous poster mentioned about Carlos Lee, if i were a Cubs fan i wouldn't be all that happy. He's looking to be pushing 300 pounds and now that he's hit his jackpot...
I for one was ecstatic and disturbed with his deal. I'm a huge Dodger fan and saw his $11M salary ridiculous and was happy to see it go away. No doubt he has a potent bat but his salary IMO will be better spent elswhere. We signed Schmidt and Wolf to great deals and if Drew was the casualty that was needed for this, so be it. I'm disturbed because... he actually did manage to get a significantly better deal than his already great deal.
Now if you want to talk about "not worth" their salary lets talk about Gil Meche.... And like the previous poster mentioned about Carlos Lee, if i were a Cubs fan i wouldn't be all that happy. He's looking to be pushing 300 pounds and now that he's hit his jackpot...
Is JD Drew worth the money. I think so lets look at some comparisions.
Career Active OBP leaders (30 or under)
1. Pujols
2. Berkman
3.Drew
4. Vlad
5. ARod
Career Active OPS leaders (30 or under)
1. Pujols
2. Berkman
3. Vlad
4. Arod
5. Ortiz
6. Drew
7. Dunn
Range Factor in RF 1.99 vs league Average of 1.77
Finished 6th in MVP voting in 2004
The Dodger fans that are happy to see him go and are thrilled with Ned Coletti, take a look over at the Giants to see where your ballclub is headed in about 5-7 years No farm system and a team that occupy last place for the next several years if/when Barry goes away. The next few years may be ok because he will trade all the prospects Depodesta landed for "gritty" veterans to keep the Dodgers in the playoff hunt while the local LA news media sings his praises for bringing in a "clubhouse" guy. If I were a Dodger fan I wouldn't be too excited about things right now.
Career Active OBP leaders (30 or under)
1. Pujols
2. Berkman
3.Drew
4. Vlad
5. ARod
Career Active OPS leaders (30 or under)
1. Pujols
2. Berkman
3. Vlad
4. Arod
5. Ortiz
6. Drew
7. Dunn
Range Factor in RF 1.99 vs league Average of 1.77
Finished 6th in MVP voting in 2004
The Dodger fans that are happy to see him go and are thrilled with Ned Coletti, take a look over at the Giants to see where your ballclub is headed in about 5-7 years No farm system and a team that occupy last place for the next several years if/when Barry goes away. The next few years may be ok because he will trade all the prospects Depodesta landed for "gritty" veterans to keep the Dodgers in the playoff hunt while the local LA news media sings his praises for bringing in a "clubhouse" guy. If I were a Dodger fan I wouldn't be too excited about things right now.
Last edited by a moderator:
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
You've got it all wrong. If the RedSox made this move than this guy has to be one of the best players ever and the move is one of the greatest and most shrill moves of all time. When the RedSox decide to spend 14 million on a player what they are really doing is fooling a 25 million per year player into taking a lesser contract. The RedSox cannot be taken advantage of and every move they make is gold.
Borat
Footballguy
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!"David Ortiz is the father of every kid in that town!"
"One time I was with David Ortiz in the back of a pickup truck, along with a live deer. David Ortiz goes up to the deer and says, 'I'm David Ortiz! SAY IT!' Then he manipulates the deer's lips in such a way as to make it say, 'David Ortiz' ... It wasn't exactly like it, but it was pretty good for a deer!'"
"David Ortiz's poop is used as currency in Argentina."
"David Ortiz sweats Gatorade"
"David Ortiz once breast-fed a flamingo back to health."
"David Ortiz hated Mexicans! And he was half Mexican! .......And he hated irony!"
"I once saw him scissor kick Angela Landsbury."
"David Ortiz sheds his skin once a year."
"David Ortiz did 3 tours in 'Nam...... I was in Corpus Christi on business a month ago. I had this eight foot tall Asian waiter, which made me curious. I asked him his name. Sure enough it's Ho Tran Ortiz!"
"I once saw David Ortiz eat a whole live chicken."
"David Ortiz was a two ton man-mountain who could palm a medicine ball!"
"Did I ever tell you about the time David Ortiz took me out to go get a drink with him? We go off looking for a bar and we can't find one. Finally Ortiz takes me to a vacant lot and says, 'Here we are.' We sat there for a year and a half and sure enough someone constructs a bar around us. The day they opened we ordered a shot, drank it, and then burned the place to the ground. Ortiz yelled over the roar of the flames, 'Always leave things the way you found em!'"
"David Ortiz had a four day heart attack...a day for each chamber. At the autopsy, they said his heart looked like a basketball filled with riccotta cheese."
"David Ortiz once punched a hole in a cow just to see who was coming up the road."
"David Ortiz taught me how to make love to a woman, and how to scold a child."
"David Ortiz drank a full glass of liquid LSD with his eggs. Then he slept for 8 months straight. When he woke he rubbed his eyes and said, 'All in all, I prefer gin.'"
"They say Gene Roddenbery got the idea for Star Trek from listening to David Ortiz talk in his sleep."
"He date raped David Bowie."
"He once inhaled a seagull."
"David Ortiz killed Wolfman Jack with a trident."
"David Ortiz uses the Shroud of Turin as a golf towel."
"David Ortiz once ate the Bible while water skiing."
"David Ortiz drives an ice cream truck covered in human skulls."
"David Ortiz has dandruff the size of mice!"
"David Ortiz jogged with a fridge on his back!"
"David Ortiz is a 10 foot monster who slept with all our wives! And punched us all in the face! And we loved him for it!"
"Did I ever tell you about the time David Ortiz went hunting? David Ortiz decides he's going to hunt down all four of the Banana Splits. He stalks and kills every one of them with a machette. They all begged for their lives...except Fleagle."
"We once had a bachelor party for David Ortiz. He ate the entire cake before we could tell him there was a stripper in it."
"David Ortiz's family crest is a picture of a baracudda eating Neil Armstrong."
"David Ortiz ranked 18th in the AP College Football Pool."
"Did I ever tell you about the time David Ortiz was in a production of, 'The King & I?' On opening night, David Ortiz chloroforms the entire cast and slowly eats them in front of the audience for two hours. The production got pretty good reviews."
"David Ortiz breastfeeds John Madden."
"David Ortiz named the group Sha-Na-Na. They did NOT want to be called that."
"If you drop a phonograph needle on David Ortiz's nipple, it plays the Beach Boys' 'Pet Sounds.'"
"They use David Ortiz's foreskin as a tarp when it rains at Yankee stadium."
"David Ortiz wears a live rattlesnake as a condom."
"Did I ever tell you about the time he taught his son how to drive? He did it by entering him in the Indy 500. The kid wrecked and died. David Ortiz said it would've happened sometime."
"David Ortiz's semen can form into a liquid human - like the guy from 'Terminator 2'"
You can insult the Auld Country, Boston baked beans and Samuel Adams...but do not tarnish the rep of David Ortiz!
Last edited by a moderator:
bostonfred
Footballguy
I think Ortiz plays hard. I think the Red Sox will end up signing Drew. I think the Boston media will give Drew a harder time than he deserves. I think ThisGuy is busy enjoying himself tweaking Red Sox fans because he doesn't have anything to talk about with his own team. I think the Yankees are still going to buy the biggest player of the year; it just won't happen until the trade deadline, and I think that's by design. I don't really know what Darth Cheney thought was funny about his previous post.
TLEF316
Footballguy
i dont hate JD Drew at all. Ive never met the guy. He's never been on a team a like, nor one that i hate. Ive never had him on a fantasy team. He never did my sister. I just dont think he is worth 14 million dollars a year. Im sorry, but he just isnt. There is a reason that almost all of the analysts agree with me. The guy just isnt a big time player. He does some things well. He draws walks, he plays a good outfield, he has solid extra base power. BUT, he also has several major flaws. He doesnt have home run power, he has a MAJOR injury history. If JD drew were a speedy # 2 hitter(preferably a center fielder) who made the kind of money that comparable players make, id have no problem. But the fact is, he is expected to hit 5th behind manny and ortiz, and he's a corner outfielder. He's a nice player, but hitting behind those two, he's gonna be expected to serve as protection and drive in runs when they get walked. Can he do that.... in the pressure packed atmosphere of Boston? I honestly dont know. But if i were a Red Sox fans, i wouldnt get my hopes up. To me, 14 million dollars is too much to spend on a 5th hitter who's up there looking to take walks. They needed a run producer at that spot (behind manny and ortiz) Unless they plan to hit him 2nd, its not a great move.Folks that think like you are the same people that say that Derek Jeter is a bad infielder. That #### really cracks me up. As far as Carlos Lee goes, yes, his contract may come out looking bad as well. He might baloon up over 300 lbs and start to suck. I wont dispute that.
Last edited by a moderator:
the moops
Footballguy
Derek Jeter is a bad infielder. He is a fantastic baseball player...but he is one of the worst defensive shortstops. It's OK to admit that you know. Every player has flaws...even Jeter.
TLEF316
Footballguy
why? because range factor says so? I can make up stats too. that doesnt mean they are right. Jeter is no omar vizquel or ozzie smith, but he is far from a poor infielder. I threw that comment out there as a test. I wanted to see if there was any way you could be persuaded on this topic. Now i know you cant for one of two reasons....A) You are a massive sox fan/ yankee hater. b) you will blindly follow stats like range factor because the baseball geeks say they are correctI definetly believe that things like on base percentage are important, but they are not the golden standard that determines who is a good baseball player. Sometimes you watch someone on the field over a long period of time and can just tell. Derek Jeter's fielding is a good example of this. He has flaws. He makes errors, he doesnt make as many plays going to his left as he should. But he is a very, very good short stop. Im done on this subject, because i know no amount of talking about JD drew's massive injury history, lack of power for a 5 hitter or lack of runs scored and RBI is gonna convince you. If you are happy to have him on your team, good for you. Just dont come on here #####ing in july when drew is hitting .285 and taking walks after ortiz doubles with 2 outs.
the moops
Footballguy
A few posts up you praise "analysts' because they agree with you in thinking that Drew is a bad signing.
Then you casually dismiss those same "analysts" when they disagree with you perception about Jeter's defense. Just because you have watched him does in no way strengthen your claim. In fact, it probably tarnishes your opinion because you are a fan of his.
You can't have it both ways. The Yankees are my second favorite team, behind the Sox. I like many moves that both teams have made this offseason. I don't dislike much right now.
Everyone knows that Drew was injury prone. He has been "healthy" 2 of the last 3 years. The one unhealthy year he got hit by a pitch. But you know all this.
Take a look at Drew's stats with RISP before you make blanket statements about him coming up short with Ortiz on 2nd. But it doesn't matter anyway, because Manny will be hitting between them...he'll knock in Ortiz then get thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double.
Then you casually dismiss those same "analysts" when they disagree with you perception about Jeter's defense. Just because you have watched him does in no way strengthen your claim. In fact, it probably tarnishes your opinion because you are a fan of his.
You can't have it both ways. The Yankees are my second favorite team, behind the Sox. I like many moves that both teams have made this offseason. I don't dislike much right now.
Everyone knows that Drew was injury prone. He has been "healthy" 2 of the last 3 years. The one unhealthy year he got hit by a pitch. But you know all this.
Take a look at Drew's stats with RISP before you make blanket statements about him coming up short with Ortiz on 2nd. But it doesn't matter anyway, because Manny will be hitting between them...he'll knock in Ortiz then get thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double.
TLEF316
Footballguy
the analysts that dont like the drew signing are guys that have watched baseball being played for decades. Those that think jeter is an awful defender are guys with Ivy league degrees that havent played a sport other than crew since tee ball. I know there are many that disagree, but ill take the former. Im not saying Jeter is an elite defender. He doesnt make enough plays going left to justify that claim. But those that say he is an awful defender are morons. An awful defender is someone like Chuck Knoblauch or BJ upton. Jeter is, at absolute worst, an average defensive player, and even thats a stretch.For what its worth, i like alot of what the sox have done this winter. The Dice K signing was massive, and signing the other japanese pitcher to help his transition was good as well. If they get anything out of Josh Beckett this year, they will be an elite team again. I've never been a huge julio lugo fan, but you cant disptute his solid numbers over the past few years. Every team makes bad moves. The sox have made a few massive stinkers in the past few years. I just cant stand how sox fans support every move like Theo epstein and his crew are some kind of baseball royalty.
the moops
Footballguy
I'll let this go after this...but Jeter may be average in the grand scheme of things, but looking at his peers at SS...you won't find many that are down to his level.That's the one thing that really bothers me about Jeter. He is the one that should have moved to 3B. ARod is/was a much better SS than him.I have disliked many Sox moves, and some of those that I disliked, I was way wrong on. I didn't like the Schilling move, nor the Varitek signing. Clement was the best available pitcher, I didnt have much problem with that. Renteria played almost exactly how he played the previous year in St Louis. I think they should have kept him for another year. I wasn't too excited about the Crisp deal. Their bullpen still sucks and I have no confidence in Theo in putting one together. Thw whole Mirabelli thing last year was ridiculous...etcHow many days till pitchers and catchers report?
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
JD Drew might be a good argument against sabermetrics, we will soon find out.
I don't like the fact that sabermetrics guys drool over this guy when there is so much other baggage that is being ignored.
14 million a year just because you like these numbers is a questionable decision. If this guy cannot handle Boston, I am going to be pissed.
I don't like the fact that sabermetrics guys drool over this guy when there is so much other baggage that is being ignored.
14 million a year just because you like these numbers is a questionable decision. If this guy cannot handle Boston, I am going to be pissed.
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
Every year we here the same lines from the Sox faithful..... This guy is great, the Sox can do no wrong, this guys numbers are great, Epstein is a god, Ortiz is a god...yada yada yada...... I think its cute that you guys are so excited about Drew. I think its cute all the man love Ortiz gets. I think its cute that the Sox faithful had to justify the Japanese ball players contract. I think its cute that VORP and SNUH and TINK numbers are used to justify Sox signings. In the end though...its still a slightly above average team.EDITED TO ADD: I also think its cute that if the Yanks made the exact same signings.... all we would here from the Soxoholics is that Drew is injury prone, Lugo has limited range, the Japanese pitcher hasn't faced anyone and that they overpaid on all their FA signings..
Last edited by a moderator:
TLEF316
Footballguy
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Are you ####### drunk? Everyone hates the Drew signing and Theo has been catching a lot of #### for his terrible season last year.Trash on BoSox fans if you want - there's probably a lot of things to say, but you can't just make #### up.
Borat
Footballguy
If Darth Cheney ever had any credibility, he just threw it away with that post.
HarryManback
Hot Pead
:( Everyone does love Ortiz, what's not to love?Theo is taking a lot of ####, and I know plenty of people, (myself included) who have doubts about Matsuko performing under the media pressure and against MLB talent.I hate the Drew signing, it's a joke that he's getting that much money, he barely deserves half of that.
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
Don't hate the player boys....hate your team.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
Why did you quote me here? I don't think you responded to a single thing I said.Darth Cheney said:
I don't disagree with this at all.
SteelCurtain
Footballguy
Darth Cheney said:
Perhaps you should read some of the threads around here.......you are completely wrong. Sox fans are very critical of the Drew signing.Theo is on the hot seat after last year's disaster. Ortiz is considered the man. Of course, you probably think he is just average. Most people (Sox and non-Sox fans) think the Matzusaka contract was a bargain for the Red Sox.
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
From what I can tell, these numbers make GMs fall in love with certain players. The Sox are in love with Drew's numbers. You can tell me they didn't ignore other factors and I will tell you that there is no way they overpay this guy without those numbers. Those numbers definately trumped any other factor and the jury is out if they are right.I love how these sabermetrics guys always think they are getting one over on everybody else. How did Jeremy Brown turn out?Bottom line this game is won with pitching not hitting and a BIG part of the reason why Billy Beane has been so succesful is that he has had some really nice pitchers.JeffyKeane said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
I don't think David Ortiz is average at all..... I just don't think he has reached Bill Brasky status yet.....Darth Cheney said:Perhaps you should read some of the threads around here.......you are completely wrong. Sox fans are very critical of the Drew signing.Theo is on the hot seat after last year's disaster. Ortiz is considered the man. Of course, you probably think he is just average. Most people (Sox and non-Sox fans) think the Matzusaka contract was a bargain for the Red Sox.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Carlos Lee is an impact player and a game changer, something Drew hasn't been since college. The soft mentality schtick comes from those who've coached and played with him. If he was as good as you suggest, why were the socks bidding against themselves in a year when Soriano and Lee have gotten two of the biggest money contracts ever?
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Don't forget the Daihatsu Suzuki or whatever signing would be RUINING BASEBALL if the Yankees had bid 50 mil just to negotiate with him.Darth Cheney said:
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
oh dearJeffyKeane said:
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Daddy, let me break it down like so:ManRam: starting the sunset gallop, lots of injuries adding upPapi: Will that heart hold out?Drew: Basket caseLugo: Nice player, should thriveCrisp/Pena: They'll catch the ball but are not even close to being impact players. Varitek: See ManRamYouk: N-word please!Lowell: Good luck duplicatin that season DaddyThe only way they'll be tied in with history is if Fenway is renamed Jurassic Park, Daddy.
the moops
Footballguy
Carlos Lee hits more homeruns. If you call that being a game changer and impact player than I guess you are right.I don't even know what you mean in the 2nd paragraph. Drew was far cheaper than both Soriano and Lee. The Sox were in no way bidding against themselves.You like homeruns and RBI and team guys. Good for you. I'll take OBP, defense and loners. Thanks
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Butt you have no problem with "Big Papi"? :X
Borat
Footballguy
I'm not a fan of either, but Papi is better than ManRam, IMO.
PahtyTom
Footballguy
Manny showed no signs of slowing down last year. I doubt Ortiz's heart was as big a deal as one would believe, since he came back to finish the year when they were already out of postseason contention. Drew may be a basket case, but he can hit, and he's never been surrounded with a lineup even close to this. A 20% uptick in his offensive numbers shouldn't be much of a reach. Crisp/Pena are both solid offensive weapons for what they bring to the table, and Pena's upside as a power threat could really make this lineup special if he turns the corner. Varitek is a guy I would agree on, as he appears to be slowing big time. Youk gets on base, and in this lineup THAT is the main ingredient for success. Lowell is solid, and has had more good years than that one very bad year with the Marlins. I would take that year as exception, not the rule. They broke records a few years ago with a great lineup, but this one is better on almost all levels. Like it or not, it's the truth. Theo knows how to build a lineup when they let him.
Borat
Footballguy
I think the Cardinals teams he was a part of had pretty good lineups. Maybe not quite as good as what the Sox look to have in '07, but I don't think you could say those Cardinals lineups were "not even close" when you're talking about being surrounded by guys like Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, and Renteria.
I should hope so. He has the 2nd highest payroll in baseball to work with.
Jefferson the Caregiver
Rebel Without A Pause
Totally disagree. Pitching is more important than hitting.That's not to say a team with no offense is going to win. But in a playoff series, I want a good rotation and a decent hitting team to compliment it.How did the Yankees fare with one of the best hitting lineups of all time this year? Also, please find my post where I said you can NEVER win with hitting. I don't think I ever came close to saying that. So ridicule yourself.JeffyKeane said:
Last edited by a moderator:
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
This is correct.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Am I crazy or did Manny just basically mail in the last 2 months with some sort of nagging injuries? Shoulder, legs, did we ever get the straight story? Ortiz, it's a question mark that will hang for the next year or so at least. Why would his numbers go up suddenly, learning a new league and facing more off-speed pitches? He was playing in the glorified AAAA league in the NL, where Sox castoffs like Arroyo can be All-Stars. Crisp is a .280 hitter with a touch of pop and bit more speed, and Pena has so much ability, you dropped 70 million on a basket case. Youk, .280 and 13 homers out of your first baseman? Servicable to be sure, but a cornerstone of a record setter? Lowell, I'll give him to you if you like, I'll put him down for 25hr/95 RBI in a best case scenario.You don't need to break records to be good, but there is a fine line between realism and optimism daddy!
the moops
Footballguy
Love to hate, don't ya?Manny missed the month of September. Not 2 months. And I'll say it. I don't care if he was hurt or not. The team was out of it. In the 5 game series against NY in late August, he was the only one to show up.Manny had 20 plate appearances. He was on base in 17 of those. He had 7 RBI.But whatever.And of all the Sox players to give props to, you choose Mike freakin Lowell? He had a very mediocre year last year. Yea, he hit 20 homeruns. And yes, he played good defense. But man, you ar ready to give him 25 HR and 95 RBI? He has only exceeded both of those twice in his career.And can you stop citing batting average as something that tells whether a guy had a good year or bad year?
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Was he not coming out of games for most of August? Its your team, you watch him more, but I know he was pulled out of a couple Yank games early. I'm not hating, he's a 35 year old player. I think we've seen the best of him. And it's not like I choose to give or withhold props, but I see a lot more problems than your rosy glassed view.
the moops
Footballguy
He is a 35 year old player who out up an OPS+ of 168 last year. Which is the 4th highest of his hall of fame career. His decline is non-existent.
Last year, in the AL he was.
2nd in OPS
4th in SLG
1st in OBP
7th in runs created (even though he had 100 fewer plate appearances than those ahead of him).
The man is a hitting machine. He is a butcher in left field. A terrible base runner. And he acts really strangely at times. However, he is as good a hitter today as he was 5 years ago.
Last year, in the AL he was.
2nd in OPS
4th in SLG
1st in OBP
7th in runs created (even though he had 100 fewer plate appearances than those ahead of him).
The man is a hitting machine. He is a butcher in left field. A terrible base runner. And he acts really strangely at times. However, he is as good a hitter today as he was 5 years ago.
