Lose Lose situations in business/life (customer is wrong scenarios) (1 Viewer)

[Dentist]

I've been dealing with a few real lose-lose scenarios in my practice over the last few months. A few of those scenarios involve situations with actual dental work where I'm put in a situation whereby it's almost impossible for me to deliver success.. a couple other of those scenarios involve situations where the customer is undeniably wrong (yes, i'm aware the customer is always right... until they aren't, no?).

I don't really want to get into my specific situations (although I may). But I'd like to hear from those of you in business or life how you've dealt with other lose-lose or customer is wrong issues so that I can learn something.

With my particular business I rely pretty heavily on not only word of mouth but online reviews to generate business.. so I've been especially conscious of late of trying to over-please people to the point where I have to take the WAY the worst of it in some scenarios so that I don't get that angry person who blasts you on yelp/google/yahoo because it takes so much effort to get 10 glowing reviews of your practice and then 1 nasty person can ruin your momentum.

Anyway... if I can learn anything from any of you I'll appreciate it

 

[matuski]

I always approach it based on what I have to gain or lose. You didn't share much detail about the scenarios in question.

How much do you stand to lose by telling them to go away?

Can you tell them to go away without upsetting them? Is there another dentist with more experience with their specific issue that you could dump (refer) them to?

 

[TheIronSheik]

"The customer is always right" was a great practice until the customer learned of it. And now, with the internet, you're pretty much in a lose lose situation all the time. Even if you do the right thing, it could still backfire.

 

[kardplayer]

I like the "you should see this specialist" approach... I do credit/debit card processing, and if there is a customer that I feel can be served better by someone else because of their specific need, I encourage them to go there. I feel like they will be more likely to send people my way if they feel like I've given them my expert opinion and didn't try to oversell them. Not sure if that applies in your specific situations.

If you've already performed services and now they are balking at paying or claiming you did something wrong, I would probably lean towards overcompensating/overfixing and then making sure I document everything with them (including them signing off before you do anything) for any future work you are doing on them.

As a side note, Progressive has been doing the "someone else can service you better" for at least 10-15 years - long before Flo, they were shopping prices for customers and referring ones to other companies when they felt the risk was too high...

 

[Abraham]

Used to be in the same boat. Now I am a big proponent of "firing" customers that don't align with your business. Details would be helpful, but in case you don't want to share I'll make up a scenario.

"Zam, you fixed this crown but it still feels rough."

"Ok, I'll sand it down with this nail file."

"THANKS!"

<<Two weeks pass>>

"You know, Doc. I think it's still rough. YOU NEED TO SAND IT AGAIN."

Unhappy customer <> Nothing Dentist can do.

Here is where I introduce the patient to a colleague in a gracious manner.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I deal with it alot in the law. Clients that have crap cases that won't settle when I actually get them what I think is a home run. Cases that I know I am going to lose that the client just doens't get. And then of course the expectations that are so unrealistic that it is actually a clinical problem.

I have the ability to fire clients if we don't see eye to eye and have trouble communicating and have had to do it once or twice. But most of the times, unfortunately, I have to practice defensive law and just document the crap out of the file and outline almost daily in writing the problems with their case and my expectations so that if it comes to them trying to sue me there is a wall of paper protecting me.

 

[E-Z Glider]

I realize dealing with individuals is a different animal, but in the B2B world, you can follow the 80/20 rule. 80% of your profits come from 20% of your clients and 80% of your problems also come from 20% of your clients and in most cases, those 20% aren't the same. Id never suggest "firing" a client, but we will raise prices for PITA clients until they either leave or it becomes worth our while to deal with the headaches.

 

[Dentist]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

 

[Dentist]

Scenario 2:

Mr. Average patient comes to their 2:00 appointment (for a problem which is going to be time consuming to fix and is not caused by any work you have done) at 10:00 am. Your diligent long term staff members swear the appointment was at 2:00 PM because why else would they jam another person on top of your very busy case with Mrs. Wonderful who is getting a ton of really nice work done in a long session. But Mr. Average is here at 10, and although he's normally fairly reasonable, today he is hot and INSISTS his appointment is at 10:00.

After gently apologizing for any confusion they may have caused, they ask if i would be alright if mr. average came back at 2:00pm the doctor is mid-procedure at this time.

Mr. average says if he can't be seen right now he's out of here... the staff interrupts me and asks if there is anyway we can see mr. average right now.

Your choices:

interrupt mrs. wonderful's procedure to take care of mr. average and throw your entire day behind and potentially cause mrs. wonderful to have a less than wonderful experience in promptness and cater to mr. average

tell mr. average we are sorry but we just can't see him right now and basically he quits the practice and we are at risk of him scathing us on the web.

Your play

 

[matuski]

Stand your ground.

Producing the documents should be enough to show the patient how this has to happen. Otherwise fire the patient.

Last advice, don't be condescending.

 

[HellToupee]

Isn't this chump change in grand scheme of things? I'd suggest to the patient they pay your cost for the new crown & move forward. If they balk i'd eat the cost & be careful dealing with this jackass going forward

 

[matuski]

If you can't see Mr. Average and give him the proper attention... adios Mr. Average.

Your only other choice seems to be risking pissing off Mrs. Wonderful and Mr. Average by giving neither the appropriate time and attention.

 

[Dentist]

Isn't this chump change in grand scheme of things? I'd suggest to the patient they pay your cost for the new crown & move forward. If they balk i'd eat the cost & be careful dealing with this jackass going forward

yeah, it is chump change in the grand scheme of things. I'm a million dollar a year business and we're talking about a loss of about $500 in revenue between my time, the repeated efforts of my staff, the materials, and the lab bills.

And that's not a bad way to look at it. And I've done it this way in the past and then told my people never to call the guy again and if he does call that we are "really busy" and it may take months to get in... But I always felt like I wimped out BIG time and that i just shouldn't get played like that.

 

[Dentist]

Last advice, don't be condescending.

good advice.. and tough for me because although I am pretty cool most of the time... when I start getting pissed off big time I can hit a breaking point where my professionalism slides.

 

[Dentist]

If you can't see Mr. Average and give him the proper attention... adios Mr. Average.

Your only other choice seems to be risking pissing off Mrs. Wonderful and Mr. Average by giving neither the appropriate time and attention.

I did this, and Mr. Average left and left me a fairly scathing review about how I wouldn't help him in his time of need... probably costing me thousands of dollars in the long term for lost online referrals.... which is more than I generated by seeing Mrs. Wonderful.

 

[Miscellaneous]

Understanding that it's a lose-lose, and that poor yelp reviews are tough... Most people respect a professional response to a scathing review on yelp. If your practice has ten excellent reviews, one guy who's angry, and your response:

"Mr. Smith, you were informed that the crown would only be successful if you came to your procedure within two months, and you ignored our calls, emails, and cards for over a year. We're very sorry the crown no longer fit, but we can always cast a new one."

Your prospective customers should get that.

 

[arrow1]

In scenario #2, I wouldn't jeopardize Mrs. Wonderful because of Mr. Average. I would tell him there is no way you can see him until 2:00.

 

[-fish-]

Scenario 2:

Mr. Average patient comes to their 2:00 appointment (for a problem which is going to be time consuming to fix and is not caused by any work you have done) at 10:00 am. Your diligent long term staff members swear the appointment was at 2:00 PM because why else would they jam another person on top of your very busy case with Mrs. Wonderful who is getting a ton of really nice work done in a long session. But Mr. Average is here at 10, and although he's normally fairly reasonable, today he is hot and INSISTS his appointment is at 10:00.

After gently apologizing for any confusion they may have caused, they ask if i would be alright if mr. average came back at 2:00pm the doctor is mid-procedure at this time.

Mr. average says if he can't be seen right now he's out of here... the staff interrupts me and asks if there is anyway we can see mr. average right now.

Your choices:

interrupt mrs. wonderful's procedure to take care of mr. average and throw your entire day behind and potentially cause mrs. wonderful to have a less than wonderful experience in promptness and cater to mr. average

tell mr. average we are sorry but we just can't see him right now and basically he quits the practice and we are at risk of him scathing us on the web.

Your play

put Mr. Average in the exam room, and then leave him there for four hours. you know, normal dentist stuff.

 

[BroadwayG]

Scenario 1) Refund 25% and hand him the crown.

Scenario 2) Have Mr. Average take a seat, and have someone check in on him and 'prep' him until your are done with Mrs. Wonderful

 

[Bourbon Cowboy]

If you can't see Mr. Average and give him the proper attention... adios Mr. Average.

Your only other choice seems to be risking pissing off Mrs. Wonderful and Mr. Average by giving neither the appropriate time and attention.

This.

 

[Abraham]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

 

[chet]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Easy. You eat it and explain what you did. Client feels special and you're out a nominal amount far less than your profit on the entire transaction.

At least give a hard example.

eta: It happens so infrequently that you should use it as an opportunity to build good will.

 

[TheIronSheik]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Hand him the crown and tell him to take it to another dentist.

 

[Abraham]

Scenario 2:

Mr. Average patient comes to their 2:00 appointment (for a problem which is going to be time consuming to fix and is not caused by any work you have done) at 10:00 am. Your diligent long term staff members swear the appointment was at 2:00 PM because why else would they jam another person on top of your very busy case with Mrs. Wonderful who is getting a ton of really nice work done in a long session. But Mr. Average is here at 10, and although he's normally fairly reasonable, today he is hot and INSISTS his appointment is at 10:00.

After gently apologizing for any confusion they may have caused, they ask if i would be alright if mr. average came back at 2:00pm the doctor is mid-procedure at this time.

Mr. average says if he can't be seen right now he's out of here... the staff interrupts me and asks if there is anyway we can see mr. average right now.

Your choices:

interrupt mrs. wonderful's procedure to take care of mr. average and throw your entire day behind and potentially cause mrs. wonderful to have a less than wonderful experience in promptness and cater to mr. average

tell mr. average we are sorry but we just can't see him right now and basically he quits the practice and we are at risk of him scathing us on the web.

Your play

Let him walk. Appointment is at 2, not 10. He'll be back.

 

[kardplayer]

Here's what I would do.

Before getting in the scenarios, one of the critical rules of thumb for business today is that you should be commenting on EVERY internet comment made about you - good and bad. By thanking the good, you encourage more good and it also makes you seem less defensive when you defend yourself against the bad. The comments don't need to be major, even something as simple as "I'm glad I was able to help you fix that issue, it is easy to be a good dentist to such a great patient" will work.

Scenario 1: I give the person the crown they paid for - in their hand. I'd show them why it won't work (I assume the mouth changes over time) and try to find an analogy that even laymen can understand (maybe beach/sand, square peg/round hole, something like that). If they aren't satisfied, welcome them to find a dentist who can make that crown work in their mouth, and offer to speak to that dentist to share any info they may need. Because they knew they were ignoring you, you have some "moral high ground" here in case it gets to be an internet war. You can offer to do/tell them you'll do the refitting "for free" to help them feel like you are in there with them. Something about how you can't charge for it, but you won't be able to take another patient at that time, etc. (Pile some sugar on there as needed, so they feel like you feel for them, but hands are tied.)

Scenario 2 is tougher, but I think you have to take your employees' side here, but apologize profusely and say that you don't have the person on your schedule - note that I wouldn't make this a financial decision - if Mrs. Wonderful was there at 10 for a 2pm appt and Mr. Average was in the chair I wouldn't bump him for her either. This is where that positive feedback you give will make you look better if he starts bashing you online.

 

[chet]

Scenario 2:

Mr. Average patient comes to their 2:00 appointment (for a problem which is going to be time consuming to fix and is not caused by any work you have done) at 10:00 am. Your diligent long term staff members swear the appointment was at 2:00 PM because why else would they jam another person on top of your very busy case with Mrs. Wonderful who is getting a ton of really nice work done in a long session. But Mr. Average is here at 10, and although he's normally fairly reasonable, today he is hot and INSISTS his appointment is at 10:00.

After gently apologizing for any confusion they may have caused, they ask if i would be alright if mr. average came back at 2:00pm the doctor is mid-procedure at this time.

Mr. average says if he can't be seen right now he's out of here... the staff interrupts me and asks if there is anyway we can see mr. average right now.

Your choices:

interrupt mrs. wonderful's procedure to take care of mr. average and throw your entire day behind and potentially cause mrs. wonderful to have a less than wonderful experience in promptness and cater to mr. average

tell mr. average we are sorry but we just can't see him right now and basically he quits the practice and we are at risk of him scathing us on the web.

Your play

This one depends on who you think made the mistake.

 

[Miscellaneous]

Scenario 2: not knowing how your team actually handled it, the correct response after he gets agitated and insists that the appointment was at 10 is to agree with him.

"Sir, obviously we've miscommunicated at some point, and have a procedure currently ongoing with the dentist. We're very sorry, but the dentist cannot stop his procedure at this point to see you. What can we do to resolve this situation for you?"

At that point, he knows that there's no way he's getting seen at 10, but anything else is at his disposal. Again, with this response, a professional response to his yelp screaming looks completely rational.

 

[Gianni Verscotchie]

You should punch his teeth out.

Cathartic for you and he will need extensive dental work.

Win Win

 

[Sand]

Yours are pretty straightforward. The first guy you will never make happy - no matter what compromise you offer. The second I would let him have his 10 o'clock but not see him until you were done with your good client.

Ok, so for the other side of the table. After just having a checkup with x-rays (and one the year before), I had a large cavity basically cave in and have to get treated (first one in 25 years). This cavity was missed on at least 2 x-rays over time as it encompassed 1/4 of my molar and is pretty close to the nerve. So it had been growing for a while. Dentist says nothing about missing this and fills it (and charges accordingly, which is fine, since it would have had to be filled anyway). It is pretty close to the nerve and is very temperature sensitive, which likely means a root canal and whatever else after that. If caught early, like it should have, there is no way I would need the root canal. All of which I am obviously expected to pay for, since said dentist is ignoring that she missed this. Your play.

 

[Dentist]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Easy. You eat it and explain what you did. Client feels special and you're out a nominal amount far less than your profit on the entire transaction.

At least give a hard example.

eta: It happens so infrequently that you should use it as an opportunity to build good will.

It ate 100% of my profit on the transaction. It's a $850 crown and after I pay to get the crown made twice $170X2 = $340 and the materials and time to make it twice = $500ish.. I'm zero'd out.

However, this is exactly what I did, but I never saw the patient again, nor did he leave me any positive reviews for my good will.

I've often been told in dental business seminars that if you're most likely going to lose the patient, don't lose the money in addition to said patient... but those seminars were before the additional risk of poor internet reviews on your business revenue.

 

[Schlzm]

You should punch his teeth out.

Cathartic for you and he will need extensive dental work.

Win Win

Also throw a teenage relative some cash to write an awesome online review every few days under a random new alias.

Schlzm

 

[Dentist]

Yours are pretty straightforward. The first guy you will never make happy - no matter what compromise you offer. The second I would let him have his 10 o'clock but not see him until you were done with your good client.

Ok, so for the other side of the table. After just having a checkup with x-rays (and one the year before), I had a large cavity basically cave in and have to get treated (first one in 25 years). This cavity was missed on at least 2 x-rays over time as it encompassed 1/4 of my molar and is pretty close to the nerve. So it had been growing for a while. Dentist says nothing about missing this and fills it (and charges accordingly, which is fine, since it would have had to be filled anyway). It is pretty close to the nerve and is very temperature sensitive, which likely means a root canal and whatever else after that. If caught early, like it should have, there is no way I would need the root canal. All of which I am obviously expected to pay for, since said dentist is ignoring that she missed this. Your play.

Great scenario because it just happened to me with a patient.

I went half-sies on the deal and didn't charge them for the root canal/buildup and post but did charge for the crown.

Patient was more than satisfied.. I made a little money on it, kept that patient's good will, but still felt bad about missing the problem.

 

[igbomb]

Understanding that it's a lose-lose, and that poor yelp reviews are tough... Most people respect a professional response to a scathing review on yelp. If your practice has ten excellent reviews, one guy who's angry, and your response:

"Mr. Smith, you were informed that the crown would only be successful if you came to your procedure within two months, and you ignored our calls, emails, and cards for over a year. We're very sorry the crown no longer fit, but we can always cast a new one."

Your prospective customers should get that.

I completely agree with this.

If I go on Yelp, I expect to see the most polarized customers providing responses to businesses. And I'll take the time to read the owner's response as well to the complainers.

But don't be a ####. Just last week I was looking for a granite contractor and someone had left him a negative review that hadn't even done business with them, just gone through the quote process and wasn't happy with his prices.

The owner responded, but he used words like selfish, immature, ignorant. The review itself I had taken with a grain of salt, but his response completely ruled him out as a contractor for me.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Here's what I would do.

Before getting in the scenarios, one of the critical rules of thumb for business today is that you should be commenting on EVERY internet comment made about you - good and bad. By thanking the good, you encourage more good and it also makes you seem less defensive when you defend yourself against the bad. The comments don't need to be major, even something as simple as "I'm glad I was able to help you fix that issue, it is easy to be a good dentist to such a great patient" will work.

Scenario 1: I give the person the crown they paid for - in their hand. I'd show them why it won't work (I assume the mouth changes over time) and try to find an analogy that even laymen can understand (maybe beach/sand, square peg/round hole, something like that). If they aren't satisfied, welcome them to find a dentist who can make that crown work in their mouth, and offer to speak to that dentist to share any info they may need. Because they knew they were ignoring you, you have some "moral high ground" here in case it gets to be an internet war. You can offer to do/tell them you'll do the refitting "for free" to help them feel like you are in there with them. Something about how you can't charge for it, but you won't be able to take another patient at that time, etc. (Pile some sugar on there as needed, so they feel like you feel for them, but hands are tied.)

Scenario 2 is tougher, but I think you have to take your employees' side here, but apologize profusely and say that you don't have the person on your schedule - note that I wouldn't make this a financial decision - if Mrs. Wonderful was there at 10 for a 2pm appt and Mr. Average was in the chair I wouldn't bump him for her either. This is where that positive feedback you give will make you look better if he starts bashing you online.

This all seems reasonable to me. I hate the idea of taking a loss when the customer is clearly in the wrong. I guess in the first case it could be worth it to take the loss and no longer accept him as a client, but I think you did the right thing in the second case. You can't screw over another innocent patient to help out a moron that can't keep his times straight. It's one thing to sacrifice your time and money for a client, it's an entirely different animal when you negatively impact another customer due to another moronic customer.

 

[datonn]

I had a client who expected the sun, moon, and stars...wanting to pay for a marble-sized meteor (and always 30-60 days past-due). After 2-3 years of being frustrated, having to call him 5-6 times to get him to put his checks in the mail, etc., I finally told him: "I'll make you a deal. I'll forget about the $500 you owe me on that last (over-due) invoice, if you promise to never call me for any more work, ever again." Granted, $500 is a lot of dinners out with the family, or a nice deposit toward a ticket to somewhere warm in the Winter! But for the hours of my life he would waste, and for the virtual "ulcer" he would cause me in the stress/frustration dept., I looked at it as a good investment in my mental health.

He never called me again. Haven't spoken to him in 6-7 years now? And my professional and personal life is much better for it as a result.

 

[Doug B]

I did this, and Mr. Average left and left me a fairly scathing review about how I wouldn't help him in his time of need... probably costing me thousands of dollars in the long term for lost online referrals.... which is more than I generated by seeing Mrs. Wonderful.

How well established are the supporting facts here? Is the bolded a rock-solid, easy-to-prove assumption?

Maybe I'm the one out of the loop, but I'd be astonished if more than one in 20 patients either visit or don't visit a given dentist primarily due to online reviews.

Word-of-mouth, sure. Treated a family member or friend in the past, sure. Dunno, maybe I don't grok how online reviews really influence things in 2014. I check them sometimes for things like restaurants or consumer products, but no one ever seems to have a clean slate of reviews.

 

[Mad Cow]

Health care is very tricky with this. It feels like I am in these situations monthly. The going back and forth, the stress, etc. just isn't worth the toll it takes on me. I try to help my patients and it is hard when they are either incredibly picky, whatever. SO I have gotten to the point where I just give them what they want as best I can and point to the door. It keeps me happier, which is worth the minor $$.

 

[Dentist]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

Wait, I'm not sure where i made the mistake here. 50-60% of the time those crowns will either shockingly fit, or I can force them to fit well enough.

Are you saying the mistake i made was attempting to try it in rather than just telling him he's out of luck to begin with?

 

[James Daulton]

I had a client who expected the sun, moon, and stars...wanting to pay for a marble-sized meteor (and always 30-60 days past-due). After 2-3 years of being frustrated, having to call him 5-6 times to get him to put his checks in the mail, etc., I finally told him: "I'll make you a deal. I'll forget about the $500 you owe me on that last (over-due) invoice, if you promise to never call me for any more work, ever again." Granted, $500 is a lot of dinners out with the family, or a nice deposit toward a ticket to somewhere warm in the Winter! But for the hours of my life he would waste, and for the virtual "ulcer" he would cause me in the stress/frustration dept., I looked at it as a good investment in my mental health.

He never called me again. Haven't spoken to him in 6-7 years now? And my professional and personal life is much better for it as a result.

And don't forget that sex and disc golf are free!

 

[Dentist]

I did this, and Mr. Average left and left me a fairly scathing review about how I wouldn't help him in his time of need... probably costing me thousands of dollars in the long term for lost online referrals.... which is more than I generated by seeing Mrs. Wonderful.

How well established are the supporting facts here? Is the bolded a rock-solid, easy-to-prove assumption?

Maybe I'm the one out of the loop, but I'd be astonished if more than one in 20 patients either visit or don't visit a given dentist primarily due to online reviews.

Word-of-mouth, sure. Treated a family member or friend in the past, sure. Dunno, maybe I don't grok how online reviews really influence things in 2014. I check them sometimes for things like restaurants or consumer products, but no one ever seems to have a clean slate of reviews.

I don't participate in many insurance programs as I'm trying to be more of an elite provider of higher end services...

I agree that an insurance driven practice doesn't rise or fall much based on reviews.

But a more elective driven practice like mine does. Of the new patients I get to my practice, upwards of 40% of them site the reason for visiting my office over an office across the street was due to "online reviews"

And if i was a restaurant or hotel that had 100's of reviews, I wouldn't give a crap about a bad one.. the best and nicest hotels I've ever stayed in have a couple people here and there that 1 starred them.. i ignore those.

But I have just a couple dozen reviews, so 1-3 bad ones stand out a LOT more and people react to those.

 

[datonn]

I had a client who expected the sun, moon, and stars...wanting to pay for a marble-sized meteor (and always 30-60 days past-due). After 2-3 years of being frustrated, having to call him 5-6 times to get him to put his checks in the mail, etc., I finally told him: "I'll make you a deal. I'll forget about the $500 you owe me on that last (over-due) invoice, if you promise to never call me for any more work, ever again." Granted, $500 is a lot of dinners out with the family, or a nice deposit toward a ticket to somewhere warm in the Winter! But for the hours of my life he would waste, and for the virtual "ulcer" he would cause me in the stress/frustration dept., I looked at it as a good investment in my mental health.

He never called me again. Haven't spoken to him in 6-7 years now? And my professional and personal life is much better for it as a result.

And don't forget that sex and disc golf are free!

In the history of the human race, when has sex *EVER* been free?!

 

[igbomb]

I did this, and Mr. Average left and left me a fairly scathing review about how I wouldn't help him in his time of need... probably costing me thousands of dollars in the long term for lost online referrals.... which is more than I generated by seeing Mrs. Wonderful.

How well established are the supporting facts here? Is the bolded a rock-solid, easy-to-prove assumption?

Maybe I'm the one out of the loop, but I'd be astonished if more than one in 20 patients either visit or don't visit a given dentist primarily due to online reviews.

Word-of-mouth, sure. Treated a family member or friend in the past, sure. Dunno, maybe I don't grok how online reviews really influence things in 2014. I check them sometimes for things like restaurants or consumer products, but no one ever seems to have a clean slate of reviews.

I don't participate in many insurance programs as I'm trying to be more of an elite provider of higher end services...

I agree that an insurance driven practice doesn't rise or fall much based on reviews.

But a more elective driven practice like mine does. Of the new patients I get to my practice, upwards of 40% of them site the reason for visiting my office over an office across the street was due to "online reviews"

And if i was a restaurant or hotel that had 100's of reviews, I wouldn't give a crap about a bad one.. the best and nicest hotels I've ever stayed in have a couple people here and there that 1 starred them.. i ignore those.

But I have just a couple dozen reviews, so 1-3 bad ones stand out a LOT more and people react to those.

You should post a link to your business' Yelp page. Then the collective FFA can leave you some reviews that are sure to drive your business to places it's never been (in the ground).

 

[Schlzm]

I did this, and Mr. Average left and left me a fairly scathing review about how I wouldn't help him in his time of need... probably costing me thousands of dollars in the long term for lost online referrals.... which is more than I generated by seeing Mrs. Wonderful.

How well established are the supporting facts here? Is the bolded a rock-solid, easy-to-prove assumption?

Maybe I'm the one out of the loop, but I'd be astonished if more than one in 20 patients either visit or don't visit a given dentist primarily due to online reviews.

Word-of-mouth, sure. Treated a family member or friend in the past, sure. Dunno, maybe I don't grok how online reviews really influence things in 2014. I check them sometimes for things like restaurants or consumer products, but no one ever seems to have a clean slate of reviews.

I don't participate in many insurance programs as I'm trying to be more of an elite provider of higher end services...

I agree that an insurance driven practice doesn't rise or fall much based on reviews.

But a more elective driven practice like mine does. Of the new patients I get to my practice, upwards of 40% of them site the reason for visiting my office over an office across the street was due to "online reviews"

And if i was a restaurant or hotel that had 100's of reviews, I wouldn't give a crap about a bad one.. the best and nicest hotels I've ever stayed in have a couple people here and there that 1 starred them.. i ignore those.

But I have just a couple dozen reviews, so 1-3 bad ones stand out a LOT more and people react to those.

This isn't that difficult man. Screw the irrational jerk customer and pad your reviews online. You can very easily drown out the noise with natural looking positive padding. It's 2014, use the tuberwebs to your advantage, don't let them hold you hostage!Schlzm

 

[Dentist]

Health care is very tricky with this. It feels like I am in these situations monthly. The going back and forth, the stress, etc. just isn't worth the toll it takes on me. I try to help my patients and it is hard when they are either incredibly picky, whatever. SO I have gotten to the point where I just give them what they want as best I can and point to the door. It keeps me happier, which is worth the minor $$.

i've got a scenario to write here where my lose-lose was giving the patient exactly what they asked for even after a very detailed "caveat emptor" speech and then when it failed as I predicted, crap ensued... that one was from my younger days though.

 

[chet]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Easy. You eat it and explain what you did. Client feels special and you're out a nominal amount far less than your profit on the entire transaction.

At least give a hard example.

eta: It happens so infrequently that you should use it as an opportunity to build good will.

It ate 100% of my profit on the transaction. It's a $850 crown and after I pay to get the crown made twice $170X2 = $340 and the materials and time to make it twice = $500ish.. I'm zero'd out.

However, this is exactly what I did, but I never saw the patient again, nor did he leave me any positive reviews for my good will.

I've often been told in dental business seminars that if you're most likely going to lose the patient, don't lose the money in addition to said patient... but those seminars were before the additional risk of poor internet reviews on your business revenue.

How much is a negative yelp review worth?

You need to get to a situation where negative reviews don't matter and will be understood to be outliers by prospective clients.

My tire store

Yelp brings them about 1 new client/day according to the owner.

 

[17seconds]

Haven't read all of the thread but you are going to change policies to plug these holes in the future right?

Like have them sign something saying they are liable for changes if they keep a temp crown longer than 60 days.

 

[Mad Cow]

Health care is very tricky with this. It feels like I am in these situations monthly. The going back and forth, the stress, etc. just isn't worth the toll it takes on me. I try to help my patients and it is hard when they are either incredibly picky, whatever. SO I have gotten to the point where I just give them what they want as best I can and point to the door. It keeps me happier, which is worth the minor $$.

i've got a scenario to write here where my lose-lose was giving the patient exactly what they asked for even after a very detailed "caveat emptor" speech and then when it failed as I predicted, crap ensued... that one was from my younger days though.

I hear ya. The question is, how much is the stress and anxiety over an untruthful online review posted 10X over worth to you? Drops in the bucket financially, but gallons to your psyche.

 

[Dentist]

Haven't read all of the thread but you are going to change policies to plug these holes in the future right?

Like have them sign something saying they are liable for changes if they keep a temp crown longer than 60 days.

Where does the signing end... while I understand your position, this turns off the good responsible patients.. people don't like signing things like that that make them feel like a #####.

Given that this happens 2X a year tops, I'm probably not going to change much policy... frankly even if you have them sign stuff it still doesn't eliminate the way they feel.. or they will state they didn't understand it, or tl;dr.

I can't prevent every scenario.... but it's nice to hear from non-dentists how they would trouble shoot it because every dentist i talk to generally drives a hard line

 

[avoiding injuries]

Post your business name and let the FFA shower you with positive reviews. PM if you have to.

 

[McGarnicle]

In my job I have to generate reports to show project volumes and our on-time performance. When we're late I have to specify a reason. My philosophy is to blame the customer whenever possible. It makes our numbers look good, which makes the VP look good, so then hopefully he gets a promotion because he's a huge ####### and everyone hates him, and then I get a nice raise and bonus.