Lose Lose situations in business/life (customer is wrong scenarios) (1 Viewer)

[NCCommish]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

Wait, I'm not sure where i made the mistake here. 50-60% of the time those crowns will either shockingly fit, or I can force them to fit well enough.

Are you saying the mistake i made was attempting to try it in rather than just telling him he's out of luck to begin with?

Once you tried to put it in you were done you gave them the idea it might work. Never do that if you aren't sure it will.. You should have told them from jump it wouldn't fit due to the time elapsed and that it would all have to be redone as they were told in the letters they tossed.

 

[-fish-]

Datonn>can you tell me more about selling meteors? Where do you get them? Do you sell on eBay or some other way? Is this your primary business?

 

[Johnny Rock]

Pm me.

"Lucky me! Of course I get a terrible tooth pain while on vacation which turned out to be a small fracture widening over time, which caused extreme sensitivity to cold. My BIL recommended Dentist as he had used him for years. He was able to squeeze me in the same day and fitted me with a temporary crown. Dentist was in communication with my local dentist which was cool. When the permanent crown came in he overnighted it to my dentist and it fit perfectly. Awesome service. Saved my vacation.

P.S. Guy was super cool. Even gave me a few tips for living beneath my means and setting myself up for retirement. Plus he likes Fantasy Football! Who knew?! And his staff is hot."

 

[Dentist]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

Wait, I'm not sure where i made the mistake here. 50-60% of the time those crowns will either shockingly fit, or I can force them to fit well enough.

Are you saying the mistake i made was attempting to try it in rather than just telling him he's out of luck to begin with?

Once you tried to put it in you were done you gave them the idea it might work. Never do that if you aren't sure it will.. You should have told them from jump it wouldn't fit due to the time elapsed and that it would all have to be redone as they were told in the letters they tossed.

Hmm... i'm trying to figure out how it would work in this scenario.... so you would tell him the entire procedure had to redone and he was responsible for the full cost of doing it as if it had never been done?

This becomes a real problem when there are 3rd party payors, which there are the majority of the time.

 

[Quint]

we had a lose/lose come up a couple of weeks ago:

Place: small tasting room in Sonoma

Time: late afternoon, about an hour before closing

Scenario: group of four come in to taste wine. one of their group goes to the bathroom, and can't figure out how to open up the [pocket/sliding] door they just entered to get out. banging & kicking on said door ensues, with one of the tasting room staff having to leave his guests to walk back to the bathroom and direct the individual how to open the door. when the staff member returns to the bar, he ascertains that the group of four have been overserved and declines to pour wine. the group grumbles a bit, and leaves.

Outcome: we get a one-star review on Yelp, with "their" version of the events at the tasting room that day. even though the reviewer takes great pains to mention how she is a "local" and has stopped in "7 - 9 times this year" and "buys multiple bottles each trip" we cannot find a record of her anywhere in our system.

Lose/Lose Options: on the one hand, the staff member could have done the irresponsible thing and poured wine for guests he determined were showing obvious signs of intoxication, putting himself and the company at risk for criminal/civil litigation and liability if they had subsequently caused an accident, slipped and fallen getting into their hotel, or a dozen other things drunk people do. on the other, he decided to (IMO) do the correct thing and then we get punished on Yelp and have to decide whether or not to play he-said/she-said on the interwebz to defend the decision.

your play?

 

[chet]

we had a lose/lose come up a couple of weeks ago:

Place: small tasting room in Sonoma

Time: late afternoon, about an hour before closing

Scenario: group of four come in to taste wine. one of their group goes to the bathroom, and can't figure out how to open up the [pocket/sliding] door they just entered to get out. banging & kicking on said door ensues, with one of the tasting room staff having to leave his guests to walk back to the bathroom and direct the individual how to open the door. when the staff member returns to the bar, he ascertains that the group of four have been overserved and declines to pour wine. the group grumbles a bit, and leaves.

Outcome: we get a one-star review on Yelp, with "their" version of the events at the tasting room that day. even though the reviewer takes great pains to mention how she is a "local" and has stopped in "7 - 9 times this year" and "buys multiple bottles each trip" we cannot find a record of her anywhere in our system.

Lose/Lose Options: on the one hand, the staff member could have done the irresponsible thing and poured wine for guests he determined were showing obvious signs of intoxication, putting himself and the company at risk for criminal/civil litigation and liability if they had subsequently caused an accident, slipped and fallen getting into their hotel, or a dozen other things drunk people do. on the other, he decided to (IMO) do the correct thing and then we get punished on Yelp and have to decide whether or not to play he-said/she-said on the interwebz to defend the decision.

your play?

I rarely use Yelp other than to check on prospective businesses; it is possible to respond? Were they truthful in their review?

 

[tjnc09]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Easy. You eat it and explain what you did. Client feels special and you're out a nominal amount far less than your profit on the entire transaction.

At least give a hard example.

eta: It happens so infrequently that you should use it as an opportunity to build good will.

It ate 100% of my profit on the transaction. It's a $850 crown and after I pay to get the crown made twice $170X2 = $340 and the materials and time to make it twice = $500ish.. I'm zero'd out.

However, this is exactly what I did, but I never saw the patient again, nor did he leave me any positive reviews for my good will.

I've often been told in dental business seminars that if you're most likely going to lose the patient, don't lose the money in addition to said patient... but those seminars were before the additional risk of poor internet reviews on your business revenue.

Why exactly would you want a "good" review from this customer? If your story is true, he is clearly in the wrong. So, you make everything right by losing money. Do you really want this guy referring customers to you and writing good reviews about how you gave him free stuff? There is a 100% chance you lost money. The chance he leaves any kind of feedback - good or bad - is less than 100%. Make him pay or politely excuse him as a client. Like the other person said, if he writes a bad review, professionally write a response. Any normal human knows that you can't please everyone - but how you respond to criticism speaks louder than a bad review.

 

[Mad Cow]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

Wait, I'm not sure where i made the mistake here. 50-60% of the time those crowns will either shockingly fit, or I can force them to fit well enough.

Are you saying the mistake i made was attempting to try it in rather than just telling him he's out of luck to begin with?

Once you tried to put it in you were done you gave them the idea it might work. Never do that if you aren't sure it will.. You should have told them from jump it wouldn't fit due to the time elapsed and that it would all have to be redone as they were told in the letters they tossed.

Hmm... i'm trying to figure out how it would work in this scenario.... so you would tell him the entire procedure had to redone and he was responsible for the full cost of doing it as if it had never been done?

This becomes a real problem when there are 3rd party payors, which there are the majority of the time.

Exactly. Then you have the patient calling the insurance company, claiming fraud, not getting what was paid for, etc. It is a headache because they can make you uncomfortable even if you are 100% in the right.

 

[Dentist]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Easy. You eat it and explain what you did. Client feels special and you're out a nominal amount far less than your profit on the entire transaction.

At least give a hard example.

eta: It happens so infrequently that you should use it as an opportunity to build good will.

It ate 100% of my profit on the transaction. It's a $850 crown and after I pay to get the crown made twice $170X2 = $340 and the materials and time to make it twice = $500ish.. I'm zero'd out.

However, this is exactly what I did, but I never saw the patient again, nor did he leave me any positive reviews for my good will.

I've often been told in dental business seminars that if you're most likely going to lose the patient, don't lose the money in addition to said patient... but those seminars were before the additional risk of poor internet reviews on your business revenue.

Why exactly would you want a "good" review from this customer? If your story is true, he is clearly in the wrong. So, you make everything right by losing money. Do you really want this guy referring customers to you and writing good reviews about how you gave him free stuff? There is a 100% chance you lost money. The chance he leaves any kind of feedback - good or bad - is less than 100%. Make him pay or politely excuse him as a client. Like the other person said, if he writes a bad review, professionally write a response. Any normal human knows that you can't please everyone - but how you respond to criticism speaks louder than a bad review.

I don't want a good review, just to avoid a bad one.

You know though I appreciate the reply.

Everything I'd read on social media was that responding actually wasn't the best play... in addition most of my reviews actually aren't on yelp, they are on google and you can't respond there.

Fortunately i'm pretty good at what i do and how i handle people so my ratio is like 33 good reviews to 2 bad.

 

[Quint]

we had a lose/lose come up a couple of weeks ago:

Place: small tasting room in Sonoma

Time: late afternoon, about an hour before closing

Scenario: group of four come in to taste wine. one of their group goes to the bathroom, and can't figure out how to open up the [pocket/sliding] door they just entered to get out. banging & kicking on said door ensues, with one of the tasting room staff having to leave his guests to walk back to the bathroom and direct the individual how to open the door. when the staff member returns to the bar, he ascertains that the group of four have been overserved and declines to pour wine. the group grumbles a bit, and leaves.

Outcome: we get a one-star review on Yelp, with "their" version of the events at the tasting room that day. even though the reviewer takes great pains to mention how she is a "local" and has stopped in "7 - 9 times this year" and "buys multiple bottles each trip" we cannot find a record of her anywhere in our system.

Lose/Lose Options: on the one hand, the staff member could have done the irresponsible thing and poured wine for guests he determined were showing obvious signs of intoxication, putting himself and the company at risk for criminal/civil litigation and liability if they had subsequently caused an accident, slipped and fallen getting into their hotel, or a dozen other things drunk people do. on the other, he decided to (IMO) do the correct thing and then we get punished on Yelp and have to decide whether or not to play he-said/she-said on the interwebz to defend the decision.

your play?

I rarely use Yelp other than to check on prospective businesses; it is possible to respond? Were they truthful in their review?

yes, we can respond, but it's going to come down to us saying, in effect, "You were drunk and that's why we didn't serve you" against their assertion that we gave them poor customer service by asking them to leave.

as far as the "truthfulness"? i think their version of the events fits in with how they perceived what happened accurately enough, through wine-stained goggles. while trying to be as objective as possible in customer-related complaints, i've got to side with the staff member and his decision: his sober view of what happened trumps the other.

 

[Joe Summer]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

Wait, I'm not sure where i made the mistake here. 50-60% of the time those crowns will either shockingly fit, or I can force them to fit well enough.

Are you saying the mistake i made was attempting to try it in rather than just telling him he's out of luck to begin with?

Your mistake is thinking that a 50% failure rate is acceptable.

 

[NCCommish]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

Wait, I'm not sure where i made the mistake here. 50-60% of the time those crowns will either shockingly fit, or I can force them to fit well enough.

Are you saying the mistake i made was attempting to try it in rather than just telling him he's out of luck to begin with?

Once you tried to put it in you were done you gave them the idea it might work. Never do that if you aren't sure it will.. You should have told them from jump it wouldn't fit due to the time elapsed and that it would all have to be redone as they were told in the letters they tossed.

Hmm... i'm trying to figure out how it would work in this scenario.... so you would tell him the entire procedure had to redone and he was responsible for the full cost of doing it as if it had never been done?

This becomes a real problem when there are 3rd party payors, which there are the majority of the time.

The fact that it doesn't fit isn't on me. It's on him. I screw up that's on me I eat it and hopefully know better next time. But I am not planning on doing work for free because you couldn't be bothered to act in a timely manner. Especially when I have a trail of paperwork to prove it. And I'm not a dentist but don't insurance companies employ dentists and shouldn't they know you have to come back within a certain amount of time for it to fit? And doesn't it set you up for liability if you knowingly put an ill fitting crown into someone's mouth? Leading to possible injury?

Again not a dentist and I don't have to deal with insurers so maybe I am totally off base here.

 

[chet]

we had a lose/lose come up a couple of weeks ago:

Place: small tasting room in Sonoma

Time: late afternoon, about an hour before closing

Scenario: group of four come in to taste wine. one of their group goes to the bathroom, and can't figure out how to open up the [pocket/sliding] door they just entered to get out. banging & kicking on said door ensues, with one of the tasting room staff having to leave his guests to walk back to the bathroom and direct the individual how to open the door. when the staff member returns to the bar, he ascertains that the group of four have been overserved and declines to pour wine. the group grumbles a bit, and leaves.

Outcome: we get a one-star review on Yelp, with "their" version of the events at the tasting room that day. even though the reviewer takes great pains to mention how she is a "local" and has stopped in "7 - 9 times this year" and "buys multiple bottles each trip" we cannot find a record of her anywhere in our system.

Lose/Lose Options: on the one hand, the staff member could have done the irresponsible thing and poured wine for guests he determined were showing obvious signs of intoxication, putting himself and the company at risk for criminal/civil litigation and liability if they had subsequently caused an accident, slipped and fallen getting into their hotel, or a dozen other things drunk people do. on the other, he decided to (IMO) do the correct thing and then we get punished on Yelp and have to decide whether or not to play he-said/she-said on the interwebz to defend the decision.

your play?

I rarely use Yelp other than to check on prospective businesses; it is possible to respond? Were they truthful in their review?

yes, we can respond, but it's going to come down to us saying, in effect, "You were drunk and that's why we didn't serve you" against their assertion that we gave them poor customer service by asking them to leave.

as far as the "truthfulness"? i think their version of the events fits in with how they perceived what happened accurately enough, through wine-stained goggles. while trying to be as objective as possible in customer-related complaints, i've got to side with the staff member and his decision: his sober view of what happened trumps the other.

Response:

Unfortunately, we're not allowed to serve people who've already had too much. When you had to be rescued from the bathroom, we realized it wouldn't be responsible to give you more wine. I understand your party was disappointed by this decision and hope that we can pour you a glass next time.

 

[Dentist]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

Wait, I'm not sure where i made the mistake here. 50-60% of the time those crowns will either shockingly fit, or I can force them to fit well enough.

Are you saying the mistake i made was attempting to try it in rather than just telling him he's out of luck to begin with?

Your mistake is thinking that a 50% failure rate is acceptable.

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Mistake in bold. This one is on you, live and learn.

Wait, I'm not sure where i made the mistake here. 50-60% of the time those crowns will either shockingly fit, or I can force them to fit well enough.

Are you saying the mistake i made was attempting to try it in rather than just telling him he's out of luck to begin with?

Your mistake is thinking that a 50% failure rate is acceptable.

i didn't fail, the person failed. my crowns fit correctly the first time 96% of the time when the person comes back in a timely manner.

 

[Quint]

we had a lose/lose come up a couple of weeks ago:

Place: small tasting room in Sonoma

Time: late afternoon, about an hour before closing

Scenario: group of four come in to taste wine. one of their group goes to the bathroom, and can't figure out how to open up the [pocket/sliding] door they just entered to get out. banging & kicking on said door ensues, with one of the tasting room staff having to leave his guests to walk back to the bathroom and direct the individual how to open the door. when the staff member returns to the bar, he ascertains that the group of four have been overserved and declines to pour wine. the group grumbles a bit, and leaves.

Outcome: we get a one-star review on Yelp, with "their" version of the events at the tasting room that day. even though the reviewer takes great pains to mention how she is a "local" and has stopped in "7 - 9 times this year" and "buys multiple bottles each trip" we cannot find a record of her anywhere in our system.

Lose/Lose Options: on the one hand, the staff member could have done the irresponsible thing and poured wine for guests he determined were showing obvious signs of intoxication, putting himself and the company at risk for criminal/civil litigation and liability if they had subsequently caused an accident, slipped and fallen getting into their hotel, or a dozen other things drunk people do. on the other, he decided to (IMO) do the correct thing and then we get punished on Yelp and have to decide whether or not to play he-said/she-said on the interwebz to defend the decision.

your play?

I rarely use Yelp other than to check on prospective businesses; it is possible to respond? Were they truthful in their review?

yes, we can respond, but it's going to come down to us saying, in effect, "You were drunk and that's why we didn't serve you" against their assertion that we gave them poor customer service by asking them to leave.

as far as the "truthfulness"? i think their version of the events fits in with how they perceived what happened accurately enough, through wine-stained goggles. while trying to be as objective as possible in customer-related complaints, i've got to side with the staff member and his decision: his sober view of what happened trumps the other.

Response:

Unfortunately, we're not allowed to serve people who've already had too much. When you had to be rescued from the bathroom, we realized it wouldn't be responsible to give you more wine. I understand your party was disappointed by this decision and hope that we can pour you a glass next time.

that's a good response. unfortunately, the reviewer's contention via her comments on Yelp is that they were not intoxicated and that her friend who got stuck in the bathroom made an "honest mistake". hence, we revert back to he-said/she-said dialogue. that just never seems to end well.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

I use Yelp to check out businesses, but rarely will impact whether I end up using/going to or not.

I don't think there's anything that could prevent the same person (using different emails/accounts) from posting infinite amount of positive/negative reviews.

I personally like when owner/manager responds. I think it's good that they review (whether they choose to respond or not).

 

[TwinTurbo]

Charge the problem customers more or refer them away. Use the extra money to pay a third party service to leave you positive reviews. As many as 30% of online reviews are fake in case you didn't know.

 

[Dentist]

Charge the problem customers more or refer them away. Use the extra money to pay a third party service to leave you positive reviews. As many as 30% of online reviews are fake in case you didn't know.

that's true amongst large entities

But every single review I have I can trace to an actual patient because with 95% of them I've asked the satisfied customer to leave me a review if they wouldn't mind.

 

[chet]

My review for Dentist:

I was traveling through St Louis when I got a sharp tooth pain that needed immediate attention. I called Dentist's office and was pleasantly surprised when his receptionist offered me a 10am appointment. "I will bump the guy to 2pm and he won't know the difference. He's tough to deal with and I hope it pisses him off."

Dentist couldn't have been more professional. He diagnosed a bad crown and lo and behold, he had one from another client that never picked it up. "Don't worry it'll fit especially after I numb you up a little." Highly recommend.

 

[Dentist]

Scenario 3:

My very pregnant wife said that I spent too much money on her birthday and she wants me to promise not to get her anything for valentine's day other than a card and a date night (dinner/movie) which I booked.

This sounds like an Admiral Ackbar "trap" if I get something and she really meant it, then I get busted for busting the family budget.... if I get nothing then I got my pregnant wife nothing for Valentine's Day...

this sounds like a lose-lose also... and I'll get negative reviews on husbands.com

What's the hawk play?

 

[Zow]

I deal with it alot in the law. Clients that have crap cases that won't settle when I actually get them what I think is a home run. Cases that I know I am going to lose that the client just doens't get. And then of course the expectations that are so unrealistic that it is actually a clinical problem.

I have the ability to fire clients if we don't see eye to eye and have trouble communicating and have had to do it once or twice. But most of the times, unfortunately, I have to practice defensive law and just document the crap out of the file and outline almost daily in writing the problems with their case and my expectations so that if it comes to them trying to sue me there is a wall of paper protecting me.

I'd echo basically the same thing. In my two main areas of practice, criminal defense and family law, customer dissatisfaction is a commonplace. There are rare exceptions (frankly, these come from the most hardened criminals who actually know the system/sentencing schemes and can be realistic), but generally it's rare to find a defendant or divorcee who doesn't think he or she was screwed to an extent. This comes from a combination of emotional overload (denial of action, fear of punishment, relationship baggage) with a significant misunderstanding of the legal system due to its complexity and false impressions received from lay friends or the media. Like Yankee has said, I've got several cases where I've absolutely killed it and the client still isn't happy. There's just nothing really to do to get through to those people. As for the others, the best you can do is simply document (but that doesn't necessarily help with reputation in the community).

Accordingly, about the only thing I think one can do (other than just simply turning down business) is temper expectations. To do that I've learned two things:

1. Try to kill any horribly unrealistic expectations before you even take a dollar. When I first meet with a potential client one of my first questions to them is to ask them how they'd like to see the case play out. Generally, most people are going to have an unlikely optimistic hope, but I have found that those with completely unrealistic expectations will show their true colors. To counter that, I nicely but directly explain that their desired outcome just simply isn't likely for x, y, and z reasons. If they do still hire me, I keep that straightforwardness going throughout the entire case. I find this is very effective at having the inevitably unhappy client not blame me when we get the bad result. Ideally then, this client won't have the incentive to bad mouth me.

2. Genuine communication and care. I think this sort of thing may be more innate for some of us, but one of the main reasons I get referred a lot and don't have too many upset clients is that I communicate as best and often as possible and, in the rare cases where I may not care, still carry myself in a way which suggests I do. For my criminal clients especially, just me giving a #### in their outcome and talking to them like they are an equal human being satisfies the majority of my clients and keeps my reputation in the community up.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Scenario 3:

My very pregnant wife said that I spent too much money on her birthday and she wants me to promise not to get her anything for valentine's day other than a card and a date night (dinner/movie) which I booked.

This sounds like an Admiral Ackbar "trap" if I get something and she really meant it, then I get busted for busting the family budget.... if I get nothing then I got my pregnant wife nothing for Valentine's Day...

this sounds like a lose-lose also... and I'll get negative reviews on husbands.com

What's the hawk play?

Start hiding money?

 

[Zow]

Scenario 3:

My very pregnant wife said that I spent too much money on her birthday and she wants me to promise not to get her anything for valentine's day other than a card and a date night (dinner/movie) which I booked.

This sounds like an Admiral Ackbar "trap" if I get something and she really meant it, then I get busted for busting the family budget.... if I get nothing then I got my pregnant wife nothing for Valentine's Day...

this sounds like a lose-lose also... and I'll get negative reviews on husbands.com

What's the hawk play?

Send her flowers to her at home with a card saying "I couldn't resist." Not much more expensive yet goes the extra mile.

This one isn't rocket science.

 

[Mad Cow]

Scenario 3:

My very pregnant wife said that I spent too much money on her birthday and she wants me to promise not to get her anything for valentine's day other than a card and a date night (dinner/movie) which I booked.

This sounds like an Admiral Ackbar "trap" if I get something and she really meant it, then I get busted for busting the family budget.... if I get nothing then I got my pregnant wife nothing for Valentine's Day...

this sounds like a lose-lose also... and I'll get negative reviews on husbands.com

What's the hawk play?

novalentinesgiftforpregnantwives.com

 

[Christo]

I deal with it alot in the law. Clients that have crap cases that won't settle when I actually get them what I think is a home run. Cases that I know I am going to lose that the client just doens't get. And then of course the expectations that are so unrealistic that it is actually a clinical problem.

I have the ability to fire clients if we don't see eye to eye and have trouble communicating and have had to do it once or twice. But most of the times, unfortunately, I have to practice defensive law and just document the crap out of the file and outline almost daily in writing the problems with their case and my expectations so that if it comes to them trying to sue me there is a wall of paper protecting me.

My favorite are the divorces. They always walk in saying it's going to be unconstested but it never turns out that way. They ask how much a divorce "usually" costs. My answer is always, it "usually" costs more than you want it to and the amount you will end up paying is in direct relation to how much you want to fight over stuff that in the end, is meaningless.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I deal with it alot in the law. Clients that have crap cases that won't settle when I actually get them what I think is a home run. Cases that I know I am going to lose that the client just doens't get. And then of course the expectations that are so unrealistic that it is actually a clinical problem.

I have the ability to fire clients if we don't see eye to eye and have trouble communicating and have had to do it once or twice. But most of the times, unfortunately, I have to practice defensive law and just document the crap out of the file and outline almost daily in writing the problems with their case and my expectations so that if it comes to them trying to sue me there is a wall of paper protecting me.

My favorite are the divorces. They always walk in saying it's going to be unconstested but it never turns out that way. They ask how much a divorce "usually" costs. My answer is always, it "usually" costs more than you want it to and the amount you will end up paying is in direct relation to how much you want to fight over stuff that in the end, is meaningless.

My speech is almost identical.

 

[NCCommish]

Scenario 3:

My very pregnant wife said that I spent too much money on her birthday and she wants me to promise not to get her anything for valentine's day other than a card and a date night (dinner/movie) which I booked.

This sounds like an Admiral Ackbar "trap" if I get something and she really meant it, then I get busted for busting the family budget.... if I get nothing then I got my pregnant wife nothing for Valentine's Day...

this sounds like a lose-lose also... and I'll get negative reviews on husbands.com

What's the hawk play?

You have to get something, just be sure it was on sale.

 

[Zow]

I deal with it alot in the law. Clients that have crap cases that won't settle when I actually get them what I think is a home run. Cases that I know I am going to lose that the client just doens't get. And then of course the expectations that are so unrealistic that it is actually a clinical problem.

I have the ability to fire clients if we don't see eye to eye and have trouble communicating and have had to do it once or twice. But most of the times, unfortunately, I have to practice defensive law and just document the crap out of the file and outline almost daily in writing the problems with their case and my expectations so that if it comes to them trying to sue me there is a wall of paper protecting me.

My favorite are the divorces. They always walk in saying it's going to be unconstested but it never turns out that way. They ask how much a divorce "usually" costs. My answer is always, it "usually" costs more than you want it to and the amount you will end up paying is in direct relation to how much you want to fight over stuff that in the end, is meaningless.

My speech is almost identical.

Flat fee(™)

 

[TwinTurbo]

Scenario 3:

My very pregnant wife said that I spent too much money on her birthday and she wants me to promise not to get her anything for valentine's day other than a card and a date night (dinner/movie) which I booked.

This sounds like an Admiral Ackbar "trap" if I get something and she really meant it, then I get busted for busting the family budget.... if I get nothing then I got my pregnant wife nothing for Valentine's Day...

this sounds like a lose-lose also... and I'll get negative reviews on husbands.com

What's the hawk play?

The hawk play is to overspend on her for Valentine's Day too.

 

[Christo]

I deal with it alot in the law. Clients that have crap cases that won't settle when I actually get them what I think is a home run. Cases that I know I am going to lose that the client just doens't get. And then of course the expectations that are so unrealistic that it is actually a clinical problem.

I have the ability to fire clients if we don't see eye to eye and have trouble communicating and have had to do it once or twice. But most of the times, unfortunately, I have to practice defensive law and just document the crap out of the file and outline almost daily in writing the problems with their case and my expectations so that if it comes to them trying to sue me there is a wall of paper protecting me.

My favorite are the divorces. They always walk in saying it's going to be unconstested but it never turns out that way. They ask how much a divorce "usually" costs. My answer is always, it "usually" costs more than you want it to and the amount you will end up paying is in direct relation to how much you want to fight over stuff that in the end, is meaningless.

My speech is almost identical.

Flat fee(™)

Only if there are no kids, no real estate and both are willing to waive support from the get-go.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I deal with it alot in the law. Clients that have crap cases that won't settle when I actually get them what I think is a home run. Cases that I know I am going to lose that the client just doens't get. And then of course the expectations that are so unrealistic that it is actually a clinical problem.

I have the ability to fire clients if we don't see eye to eye and have trouble communicating and have had to do it once or twice. But most of the times, unfortunately, I have to practice defensive law and just document the crap out of the file and outline almost daily in writing the problems with their case and my expectations so that if it comes to them trying to sue me there is a wall of paper protecting me.

My favorite are the divorces. They always walk in saying it's going to be unconstested but it never turns out that way. They ask how much a divorce "usually" costs. My answer is always, it "usually" costs more than you want it to and the amount you will end up paying is in direct relation to how much you want to fight over stuff that in the end, is meaningless.

My speech is almost identical.

Flat fee(™)

Never gonna happen. The fact that I have to do real estate at a flat fee annoys me to no end.

 

[GroveDiesel]

we had a lose/lose come up a couple of weeks ago:

Place: small tasting room in Sonoma

Time: late afternoon, about an hour before closing

Scenario: group of four come in to taste wine. one of their group goes to the bathroom, and can't figure out how to open up the [pocket/sliding] door they just entered to get out. banging & kicking on said door ensues, with one of the tasting room staff having to leave his guests to walk back to the bathroom and direct the individual how to open the door. when the staff member returns to the bar, he ascertains that the group of four have been overserved and declines to pour wine. the group grumbles a bit, and leaves.

Outcome: we get a one-star review on Yelp, with "their" version of the events at the tasting room that day. even though the reviewer takes great pains to mention how she is a "local" and has stopped in "7 - 9 times this year" and "buys multiple bottles each trip" we cannot find a record of her anywhere in our system.

Lose/Lose Options: on the one hand, the staff member could have done the irresponsible thing and poured wine for guests he determined were showing obvious signs of intoxication, putting himself and the company at risk for criminal/civil litigation and liability if they had subsequently caused an accident, slipped and fallen getting into their hotel, or a dozen other things drunk people do. on the other, he decided to (IMO) do the correct thing and then we get punished on Yelp and have to decide whether or not to play he-said/she-said on the interwebz to defend the decision.

your play?

I rarely use Yelp other than to check on prospective businesses; it is possible to respond? Were they truthful in their review?

yes, we can respond, but it's going to come down to us saying, in effect, "You were drunk and that's why we didn't serve you" against their assertion that we gave them poor customer service by asking them to leave.

as far as the "truthfulness"? i think their version of the events fits in with how they perceived what happened accurately enough, through wine-stained goggles. while trying to be as objective as possible in customer-related complaints, i've got to side with the staff member and his decision: his sober view of what happened trumps the other.

Response:

Unfortunately, we're not allowed to serve people who've already had too much. When you had to be rescued from the bathroom, we realized it wouldn't be responsible to give you more wine. I understand your party was disappointed by this decision and hope that we can pour you a glass next time.

that's a good response. unfortunately, the reviewer's contention via her comments on Yelp is that they were not intoxicated and that her friend who got stuck in the bathroom made an "honest mistake". hence, we revert back to he-said/she-said dialogue. that just never seems to end well.

Honestly, without actually seeing the review, it sounds like there's still enough there where if I were reading without knowing either party, I'd probably assume that they were in fact a bunch of drunks and that you were right to cut them off.

Anyone that would refuse to go to a place because that place is concerned enough to cut them off, even if they're being overly conservative, is probably not the kind of customer you ultimately want anyway.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Dentist - it really sounds to me like you need an office manager. This person can be the "A hole" to these people if need be, "look your crown was here for X amount of months...you will need to pay again or we can't help you" "sir we will be happy to reschedule your appointment at 2pm if that will not work for you please tell us when would be a good time? The dentist cannot stop his procedure on another patient at this time".

Hell go as far as saying, "would you want the dentist to leave in the middle of your procedure to see another patient?"

 

[Gr00vus]

I wouldn't sweat a bad review or two. When looking at online reviews, I get very skeptical of things that have all 5 stars when they have more than a trivial number of reviews - things just don't work like that, and it makes me think the reviews are fake. As long as you're 4 stars or better (or whatever the equivalent is in your ranking system) you're good.

You can usually tell if there are a few bad reviews mixed in with a preponderance of good ones that it's probably the reviewer's deal more than the reviewee's.

For valentine's day - can you get away with a box of See's candy or something?

 

[[icon]]

Not directly related but also in dental field....

We have docs send us cases for restorations that are WELL outside our acceptable guidelines. We ask for 10mm of restorative space and can do most cases with 8mm without too much issue. We have idiots calling us with 4-5mm cases. A few times in the past there have been instances where we'd mod the #### out of the bar and warn them it would break but they said fine... and demanded it. Turns out it broke and they were pissed. Duh.

Moral: Now we just turn those cases away. Not worth the headache.

 

[[icon]]

I wouldn't sweat a bad review or two. When looking at online reviews, I get very skeptical of things that have all 5 stars when they have more than a trivial number of reviews - things just don't work like that, and it makes me think the reviews are fake. As long as you're 4 stars or better (or whatever the equivalent is in your ranking system) you're good.

You can usually tell if there are a few bad reviews mixed in with a preponderance of good ones that it's probably the reviewer's deal more than the reviewee's.

For valentine's day - can you get away with a box of See's candy or something?

Yep. I use online reviews a LOT and I always expect there to be about 5-10% "pissed off #######" reviews for anyone. You know that guy who had a full meal that was "just okay" then gives a 1 star review because he had to "wait 15 minutes for his check" likely more like 2-3 mins in reality.

Most intelligent people know enough to discount those reviews.

Now if it's an ongoing occurrence of an actual real issue reflected in several reviews that seem otherwise reasonable.... then I start to get worried and look elsewhere.

 

[The Big Guy]

My version has been telling the customer no when they ask for something ridiculous, but then adding in that what I can do is this. This gives them the feeling that you are trying to work with them and help them while at the same time not giving away the store.

 

[Dentist]

Dentist - it really sounds to me like you need an office manager. This person can be the "A hole" to these people if need be, "look your crown was here for X amount of months...you will need to pay again or we can't help you" "sir we will be happy to reschedule your appointment at 2pm if that will not work for you please tell us when would be a good time? The dentist cannot stop his procedure on another patient at this time".

Hell go as far as saying, "would you want the dentist to leave in the middle of your procedure to see another patient?"

i have a good office manager, she's been with us ( i work with my dad) over 30 years. But she doesn't have one ounce of ##### in her, which is great for business except when dealing with other a-holes.

As far as the final statement... people that are hot and bothered never respond to logic... especially women... so that doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[Dentist]

Not directly related but also in dental field....

We have docs send us cases for restorations that are WELL outside our acceptable guidelines. We ask for 10mm of restorative space and can do most cases with 8mm without too much issue. We have idiots calling us with 4-5mm cases. A few times in the past there have been instances where we'd mod the #### out of the bar and warn them it would break but they said fine... and demanded it. Turns out it broke and they were pissed. Duh.

Moral: Now we just turn those cases away. Not worth the headache.

Sometimes dentists are no different than their patients.

There are recommended guidelines for materials... minimums that the materials need to succeed... and people ask for things that are impossible and complain when they fail.

Little difference between that and patients that ask for something that simply can't be delivered with success and then complain when it fails.

That's one of the biggest no-wins. I pitch a plan to someone... they can't afford it so they ask it to be broken down into smaller segments or piece-mealed somehow... But I know that if I try to do that, that then i'm relying on that person following through with the rest of the case in a reasonable time frame... and then when they don't follow through they put too much stress on the part of the case that's finished.. and it fails... and then it's my fault.

But so few people are willing to do things in an ideal fashion (or even near ideal) that you begin to start caving to what the patient wants because you have to generate some revenue somehow sometimes.... and the compounding errors begin.

So so many failures i see from lack of follow through or a plan that caved to people trying to reduce the cost of things.

I do or see so many root canals done every year where the person was told to get the crown done within X months and they don't do it because the tooth doesn't hurt anymore and then it breaks down and gets extracted... it's almost laughable how much waste there is.

 

[mon]

With my particular business I rely pretty heavily on not only word of mouth but online reviews to generate business.. so I've been especially conscious of late of trying to over-please people to the point where I have to take the WAY the worst of it in some scenarios so that I don't get that angry person who blasts you on yelp/google/yahoo because it takes so much effort to get 10 glowing reviews of your practice and then 1 nasty person can ruin your momentum.

It seems you just want to please people so you'll get good reviews. Maybe you're even thinking the better reviews you get, the more money you'll make. Don't worry about the reviews or the money. Just please people because you want to make them happy. Otherwise, you'll just get pissed and stressed.

 

[pack100]

Scenario 2:

Mr. Average patient comes to their 2:00 appointment (for a problem which is going to be time consuming to fix and is not caused by any work you have done) at 10:00 am. Your diligent long term staff members swear the appointment was at 2:00 PM because why else would they jam another person on top of your very busy case with Mrs. Wonderful who is getting a ton of really nice work done in a long session. But Mr. Average is here at 10, and although he's normally fairly reasonable, today he is hot and INSISTS his appointment is at 10:00.

After gently apologizing for any confusion they may have caused, they ask if i would be alright if mr. average came back at 2:00pm the doctor is mid-procedure at this time.

Mr. average says if he can't be seen right now he's out of here... the staff interrupts me and asks if there is anyway we can see mr. average right now.

Your choices:

interrupt mrs. wonderful's procedure to take care of mr. average and throw your entire day behind and potentially cause mrs. wonderful to have a less than wonderful experience in promptness and cater to mr. average

tell mr. average we are sorry but we just can't see him right now and basically he quits the practice and we are at risk of him scathing us on the web.

Your play

Let him walk. Appointment is at 2, not 10. He'll be back.

I would have been pissed too.... Are we sure there was not an error in the appointment? It is always a possibility. Give the customer the benefit of the doubt. Make me wait a bit but for sure squeeze me in. "Sir sorry for the error, take a seat and we will squeeze you in as soon a we can." Plus i get irrational, grumpy if my tooth is hurting.

The other person can go blow. 14 months is a bunch of crap. Nice job on that temporary! You did your due diligence.

 

[mr roboto]

I don't know about the rest of you, but if the yelp reviews are 4/1 good to bad, that's good enough for me. A four or five star review counts as a positive review in my opinion. Therefore, if you have 33 positive reviews to 2 negative, you could have 6 more negative reviews and it wouldn't impact my decision at all.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

OK. here's a scenario:

Patient comes in for crown appointment. In my office it's a 2 appointment process. I prepare the tooth for the crown, take an impression, make them a great temporary crown and then appoint them 2-2.5 weeks later to receive their crown. They are told that crowns fit the best when placed as soon as possible after we receive them in both written and verbal instructions.

In this particular scenario, the insurance and patient both paid for their parts in full between visit 1 and visit 2.

Day for visit 2 rolls around and the patient doesn't show. This happens, we contact them to reappoint... do not return call, do not return call, send letter to them.. no response,.. we're a few months out now... send letter stating that their crown is back and stating if we do not get it placed in the mouth soon it is likely the crown the lab made will not fit and that any remake expenses will be their responsibility... no response... 15 documented attempts to contact them.

We figured at that point the person wasn't ever coming back, had died or moved (i have about 4-5 fully paid for crowns sitting on my shelf from 12 years of practice.. and about another 4-5 unpaid or partially paid for crowns)

Anyway.. then 14 months later they show up and say that their temporary is now off and they would like to get their permanent crown... person had received our calls and letters and just ignored them because "they loved their temporary".

So then I attempt to try the crown in, and it REALLY doesn't fit.... so I inform the patient this crown no longer fits, the teeth shifted, etc. We will need to take a new impression, re-send to the lab and have the crown re-made.. it was not the dental lab's fault it didn't fit, so i fully expect to have to pay another $150-200 to have it remade and fully intend to pass that cost onto the patient.. as it is I'm STILL losing because now i have to do more work and have a 3rd appointment (I should really get to charge for my time in this scenario, but I don't).

And this is of course where the impasse occurs.. the guy has already paid for the crown.. he feels entitled to said crown.... And no amount of gentle explanation or logic gets him to think he should have to pay any of the additional lab bill.

So.. hence my lose-lose... i can eat the $150-200 and additional hour or so of my time and another $60-100 of materials... or I can stand my ground on it and risk getting blasted on the internet...

Your play

Wish him well and find a new dentist. I would not have even entertained the call. You were kind just to try.

 

[Dentist]

With my particular business I rely pretty heavily on not only word of mouth but online reviews to generate business.. so I've been especially conscious of late of trying to over-please people to the point where I have to take the WAY the worst of it in some scenarios so that I don't get that angry person who blasts you on yelp/google/yahoo because it takes so much effort to get 10 glowing reviews of your practice and then 1 nasty person can ruin your momentum.

It seems you just want to please people so you'll get good reviews. Maybe you're even thinking the better reviews you get, the more money you'll make. Don't worry about the reviews or the money. Just please people because you want to make them happy. Otherwise, you'll just get pissed and stressed.

Well I think you are mostly spot on. I do think that the more and better reviews I'll get the more money I will make (because that's basically what's happened for me over the last 5 years) and so I admit that is always in the back of my head.

But I will also tell you that moreso than the money, at the end of the day I just really like to please people because I dislike confrontation and issues I'd rather not deal with. I'm more motivated with not being bothered/hassled than I am with generating revenue.

So these people in some of these scenarios are not only costing me money and creating stress for me that I shouldn't have had to deal with.. but now with today's marketing I have to worry about what they may say about my business on the interwebs.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Scenario 3:

My very pregnant wife said that I spent too much money on her birthday and she wants me to promise not to get her anything for valentine's day other than a card and a date night (dinner/movie) which I booked.

This sounds like an Admiral Ackbar "trap" if I get something and she really meant it, then I get busted for busting the family budget.... if I get nothing then I got my pregnant wife nothing for Valentine's Day...

this sounds like a lose-lose also... and I'll get negative reviews on husbands.com

What's the hawk play?

I smooth call.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I'm wrong even when I'm right... The clients I deal with wont write reviews, they'll just stop sending us money and ship it elsewhere. I know this, my company knows this, & our clients know this. We just get stuck eating #### - unfortunately that seems to be the norm in my line of work and a lot of others too.

 

[Henry Ford]

we had a lose/lose come up a couple of weeks ago:

Place: small tasting room in Sonoma

Time: late afternoon, about an hour before closing

Scenario: group of four come in to taste wine. one of their group goes to the bathroom, and can't figure out how to open up the [pocket/sliding] door they just entered to get out. banging & kicking on said door ensues, with one of the tasting room staff having to leave his guests to walk back to the bathroom and direct the individual how to open the door. when the staff member returns to the bar, he ascertains that the group of four have been overserved and declines to pour wine. the group grumbles a bit, and leaves.

Outcome: we get a one-star review on Yelp, with "their" version of the events at the tasting room that day. even though the reviewer takes great pains to mention how she is a "local" and has stopped in "7 - 9 times this year" and "buys multiple bottles each trip" we cannot find a record of her anywhere in our system.

Lose/Lose Options: on the one hand, the staff member could have done the irresponsible thing and poured wine for guests he determined were showing obvious signs of intoxication, putting himself and the company at risk for criminal/civil litigation and liability if they had subsequently caused an accident, slipped and fallen getting into their hotel, or a dozen other things drunk people do. on the other, he decided to (IMO) do the correct thing and then we get punished on Yelp and have to decide whether or not to play he-said/she-said on the interwebz to defend the decision.

your play?

I rarely use Yelp other than to check on prospective businesses; it is possible to respond? Were they truthful in their review?

yes, we can respond, but it's going to come down to us saying, in effect, "You were drunk and that's why we didn't serve you" against their assertion that we gave them poor customer service by asking them to leave.

as far as the "truthfulness"? i think their version of the events fits in with how they perceived what happened accurately enough, through wine-stained goggles. while trying to be as objective as possible in customer-related complaints, i've got to side with the staff member and his decision: his sober view of what happened trumps the other.

Any response should be concise, professional, and state a rule.

"We are sorry that you were not able to enjoy our tasting room on this trip. Unfortunately, company policy did not allow us to serve you at the time that you and your party arrived. We hope to see you again on another trip to our establishment."

 

[thayman]

we had a lose/lose come up a couple of weeks ago:

Place: small tasting room in Sonoma

Time: late afternoon, about an hour before closing

Scenario: group of four come in to taste wine. one of their group goes to the bathroom, and can't figure out how to open up the [pocket/sliding] door they just entered to get out. banging & kicking on said door ensues, with one of the tasting room staff having to leave his guests to walk back to the bathroom and direct the individual how to open the door. when the staff member returns to the bar, he ascertains that the group of four have been overserved and declines to pour wine. the group grumbles a bit, and leaves.

Outcome: we get a one-star review on Yelp, with "their" version of the events at the tasting room that day. even though the reviewer takes great pains to mention how she is a "local" and has stopped in "7 - 9 times this year" and "buys multiple bottles each trip" we cannot find a record of her anywhere in our system.

Lose/Lose Options: on the one hand, the staff member could have done the irresponsible thing and poured wine for guests he determined were showing obvious signs of intoxication, putting himself and the company at risk for criminal/civil litigation and liability if they had subsequently caused an accident, slipped and fallen getting into their hotel, or a dozen other things drunk people do. on the other, he decided to (IMO) do the correct thing and then we get punished on Yelp and have to decide whether or not to play he-said/she-said on the interwebz to defend the decision.

your play?

Contact Yelp, explain what happened and they will likely pull the review off.

 

[Black Box]

I don't know about the rest of you, but if the yelp reviews are 4/1 good to bad, that's good enough for me. A four or five star review counts as a positive review in my opinion. Therefore, if you have 33 positive reviews to 2 negative, you could have 6 more negative reviews and it wouldn't impact my decision at all.

I've also taken to read 2-star reviews before 1-star reviews. It just seems to me that 1-star reviews are ax-grinders, but 2-star reviews seem to generally have something to them.

 

[encaitar]

Scenario 3:

My very pregnant wife said that I spent too much money on her birthday and she wants me to promise not to get her anything for valentine's day other than a card and a date night (dinner/movie) which I booked.

This sounds like an Admiral Ackbar "trap" if I get something and she really meant it, then I get busted for busting the family budget.... if I get nothing then I got my pregnant wife nothing for Valentine's Day...

this sounds like a lose-lose also... and I'll get negative reviews on husbands.com

What's the hawk play?

Read any of your posts from 6 years ago.