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Mad Men on AMC (2 Viewers)

Interesting that nobody's mentioned the biggest event of the episode. It's hard to believe, but I think she's gone. Next to Roger, she's my favorite character on the show.
Nobody commented, IMO, because there is no way she's "gone" ... she's too important to the show's dynamic.
Not lately she hasn't been. Her role had been marginalized lately and the only resolution required for her character was will she ever get out from under Don and break out on her own. The answer is yes. I'm pretty sure she's gone. And I'll be disappointed in Weiner if she's not.
 
Interesting that nobody's mentioned the biggest event of the episode. It's hard to believe, but I think she's gone. Next to Roger, she's my favorite character on the show.
Nobody commented, IMO, because there is no way she's "gone" ... she's too important to the show's dynamic.
Not lately she hasn't been. Her role had been marginalized lately and the only resolution required for her character was will she ever get out from under Don and break out on her own. The answer is yes. I'm pretty sure she's gone. And I'll be disappointed in Weiner if she's not.
My guess: Within a week or two, Don calls and asks to meet her for coffee. The new agency isn't what Peggy had hoped. Don apologizes for all the times he humiliated her and talked down to her, and begs her to return. Assuming Peggy hasn't signed a non-compete, she acquiesces.
 
And I'll be disappointed in Weiner if she's not.
I agree with, RN.No way has Elisabeth Moss left the show. She means too much.
There are countless potential reasons for her to leave the show. Topping them all would be Weiner thinking that it was a good more for the character, not to mention for his budget. Writers do things like this all the time. Aaron Sorkin killed Mrs. Landingham because he overheard Kathryn Joosten at a party mention that she was entertaining an offer for another show. You never know. But the way that was written and the ramp up this season to it, there is nothing in the show to indicate she would be back. Nothing. Saying Elizabeth Moss means too much to the show doesn't seem like a good enough reason to assume they're pulling our legs. This isn't the kind of show that pulls your leg. Maybe cut it off with a riding mower in a midtown skyscraper, but not pull it. They don't do that cheap bs.
 
Interesting that nobody's mentioned the biggest event of the episode. It's hard to believe, but I think she's gone. Next to Roger, she's my favorite character on the show.
Nobody commented, IMO, because there is no way she's "gone" ... she's too important to the show's dynamic.
Not lately she hasn't been. Her role had been marginalized lately and the only resolution required for her character was will she ever get out from under Don and break out on her own. The answer is yes. I'm pretty sure she's gone. And I'll be disappointed in Weiner if she's not.
My guess: Within a week or two, Don calls and asks to meet her for coffee. The new agency isn't what Peggy had hoped. Don apologizes for all the times he humiliated her and talked down to her, and begs her to return. Assuming Peggy hasn't signed a non-compete, she acquiesces.
And that would be the worst writing in the history of this show. No way.Btw, two more moments were I was conscious of the falling man tonight. When Pete was pitching the Joan thing to the partners, I thought Roger might go postal on him. Then when Peggy was at the elevator bank about to leave. I think we were supposed to have those flashes.
 
There are countless potential reasons for her to leave the show. Topping them all would be Weiner thinking that it was a good more for the character, not to mention for his budget......there is nothing in the show to indicate she would be back. Nothing. Saying Elizabeth Moss means too much to the show doesn't seem like a good enough reason to assume they're pulling our legs. This isn't the kind of show that pulls your leg. Maybe cut it off with a riding mower in a midtown skyscraper, but not pull it. They don't do that cheap bs.
How much does Moss make per episode? Even if Weiner doubled her salary, I can't imagine the difference being more than 100K for the season, which is nothing.Moss is like Tony Sirico or Anna Gunn, or Josh Charles: a supporting character that brings depth to the show.
 
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There are countless potential reasons for her to leave the show. Topping them all would be Weiner thinking that it was a good more for the character, not to mention for his budget......there is nothing in the show to indicate she would be back. Nothing. Saying Elizabeth Moss means too much to the show doesn't seem like a good enough reason to assume they're pulling our legs. This isn't the kind of show that pulls your leg. Maybe cut it off with a riding mower in a midtown skyscraper, but not pull it. They don't do that cheap bs.
How much does Moss make per episode? Even if Weiner doubled her salary, I can't imagine the difference being more than 100K for the season, which is nothing.Moss is like Tony Sirico or Anna Gunn, or Josh Charles: a supporting character than brings depth to the show.
So you think Moss makes less than $10k per episode?
 
There are countless potential reasons for her to leave the show. Topping them all would be Weiner thinking that it was a good more for the character, not to mention for his budget......there is nothing in the show to indicate she would be back. Nothing. Saying Elizabeth Moss means too much to the show doesn't seem like a good enough reason to assume they're pulling our legs. This isn't the kind of show that pulls your leg. Maybe cut it off with a riding mower in a midtown skyscraper, but not pull it. They don't do that cheap bs.
How much does Moss make per episode? Even if Weiner doubled her salary, I can't imagine the difference being more than 100K for the season, which is nothing.Moss is like Tony Sirico or Anna Gunn, or Josh Charles: a supporting character than brings depth to the show.
I understand, but she's not like Anna Gunn, who is the wife of the lead, and I only know Josh Charles from SportsNight, so the reference is lost on me. Tony Sirico...that I can live with, especially since Big ##### is probably the best analogy. They seemed to have run out of ideas for her, or felt like they went as far as they wanted. They planted seeds with the new kid when they touched on his background, plus he keeps coming up with winning creative. The more I think about it, the more I'm sure she's gone. There's just not enough oxygen left for Peggy.
 
Interesting that nobody's mentioned the biggest event of the episode. It's hard to believe, but I think she's gone. Next to Roger, she's my favorite character on the show.
Nobody commented, IMO, because there is no way she's "gone" ... she's too important to the show's dynamic.
Not lately she hasn't been. Her role had been marginalized lately and the only resolution required for her character was will she ever get out from under Don and break out on her own. The answer is yes. I'm pretty sure she's gone. And I'll be disappointed in Weiner if she's not.
My guess: Within a week or two, Don calls and asks to meet her for coffee. The new agency isn't what Peggy had hoped. Don apologizes for all the times he humiliated her and talked down to her, and begs her to return. Assuming Peggy hasn't signed a non-compete, she acquiesces.
And that would be the worst writing in the history of this show. No way.
It will take a pretty big reason for Peggy to enter Don's world again. Anything trivial will make her resignation seem cheap. My guess Pete kills himself.
 
The only partner reaction to the idea of Joan prostituting herself that I didn't believe was that of Roger.
It wasn't his reaction I had an issue with, it was not having a scene with him going to her about it. But I can see Roger rationalizing it in his mind as it's four times her annual salary (at that point) for one ####, Joan is a big girl and is capable of saying no, AND it would be nice to land Jaguar.
 
Interesting that nobody's mentioned the biggest event of the episode. It's hard to believe, but I think she's gone. Next to Roger, she's my favorite character on the show.
Nobody commented, IMO, because there is no way she's "gone" ... she's too important to the show's dynamic.
Not lately she hasn't been. Her role had been marginalized lately and the only resolution required for her character was will she ever get out from under Don and break out on her own. The answer is yes. I'm pretty sure she's gone. And I'll be disappointed in Weiner if she's not.
My guess: Within a week or two, Don calls and asks to meet her for coffee. The new agency isn't what Peggy had hoped. Don apologizes for all the times he humiliated her and talked down to her, and begs her to return. Assuming Peggy hasn't signed a non-compete, she acquiesces.
And that would be the worst writing in the history of this show. No way.
It will take a pretty big reason for Peggy to enter Don's world again. Anything trivial will make her resignation seem cheap.
Don and Peggy quarreling next season because they are both fighting over the same clients. Better?
 
I understand, but she's not like Anna Gunn, who is the wife of the lead, and I only know Josh Charles from SportsNight, so the reference is lost on me. Tony Sirico...that I can live with, especially since Big ##### is probably the best analogy. They seemed to have run out of ideas for her, or felt like they went as far as they wanted. They planted seeds with the new kid when they touched on his background, plus he keeps coming up with winning creative. The more I think about it, the more I'm sure she's gone. There's just not enough oxygen left for Peggy.
I think Moss, stays. She is integral. I cannot imagine the show without her. She represents so much heart.To answer the bolded: Josh Charles is on a show called "The Good Wife" on CBS. He is not the star, but he brings depth and resonance. He is really good.

 
Interesting that nobody's mentioned the biggest event of the episode. It's hard to believe, but I think she's gone. Next to Roger, she's my favorite character on the show.
Nobody commented, IMO, because there is no way she's "gone" ... she's too important to the show's dynamic.
Jimmy Darmody on line 1 for you, boss.
Everyone saw that coming.
But he was important to the show's dynamic, no? So was Omar Little. So was Nedd Stark on Game of Thrones.But if you want to depict a time/place realistically, people leave. Be it via a bullet in the head, or leaving a job for a better one. That's how life works. She was one of my favorite characters, but I appreciate shaking things up instead of constantly maintaining the status quo.
 
What more was Peggy going to do at SDC? Her arc ran it's course. For how much we all love her character we'd all rather see Joans' cans on screen. I think this is a perfect send-off and leaves a lot of airtime that hopefully Ginsberg fills.

I'd be very dissappointed if she's brought back to the agency anytime soon. It was a pitch perfect ending with the smile. Don't cheapen it. They can't be that dumb.

 
This storyline is not even remotely plausible.
Shtick?
On my part?
What exactly is not even remotely plausible?
Take your pick:- The married owner of a huge company extorts the guys into making an indecent proposal to a married womanor- That a woman like Joan would actually be agreeable to it?
Oh my, how naive of you.
 
I think Moss, stays. She is integral. I cannot imagine the show without her. She represents so much heart.
There was a time when I would have described Betty Draper as one of the five most important characters on the show. How many episodes has she been in this season? I see the same thing here.
January Jones just had a baby.Peggy will be back. They will follow her on her new job for a while. Drama will ensue there as it also will at SCDP and the perfect storm will occur resulting in Peggy coming back with a promotion. If they were planning on writing Peggy out, why would they pick up on some of her story lines like moving in with her boyfriend? Peggy is too popular of a character for female viewers.
 
I think Moss, stays. She is integral. I cannot imagine the show without her. She represents so much heart.
There was a time when I would have described Betty Draper as one of the five most important characters on the show. How many episodes has she been in this season? I see the same thing here.
January Jones just had a baby.Peggy will be back. They will follow her on her new job for a while. Drama will ensue there as it also will at SCDP and the perfect storm will occur resulting in Peggy coming back with a promotion. If they were planning on writing Peggy out, why would they pick up on some of her story lines like moving in with her boyfriend? Peggy is too popular of a character for female viewers.
Other shows would probably do what you're saying in the interest of her popularity.I wouldn't count on it with this show.
 
I think Moss, stays. She is integral. I cannot imagine the show without her. She represents so much heart.
There was a time when I would have described Betty Draper as one of the five most important characters on the show. How many episodes has she been in this season? I see the same thing here.
January Jones just had a baby.Peggy will be back. They will follow her on her new job for a while. Drama will ensue there as it also will at SCDP and the perfect storm will occur resulting in Peggy coming back with a promotion. If they were planning on writing Peggy out, why would they pick up on some of her story lines like moving in with her boyfriend? Peggy is too popular of a character for female viewers.
I am guessing she will be at the other agency until the middle to end of next season. Anything else will cheapen her leaving the first place
 
There are countless potential reasons for her to leave the show. Topping them all would be Weiner thinking that it was a good more for the character, not to mention for his budget......there is nothing in the show to indicate she would be back. Nothing. Saying Elizabeth Moss means too much to the show doesn't seem like a good enough reason to assume they're pulling our legs. This isn't the kind of show that pulls your leg. Maybe cut it off with a riding mower in a midtown skyscraper, but not pull it. They don't do that cheap bs.
How much does Moss make per episode? Even if Weiner doubled her salary, I can't imagine the difference being more than 100K for the season, which is nothing.Moss is like Tony Sirico or Anna Gunn, or Josh Charles: a supporting character than brings depth to the show.
So you think Moss makes less than $10k per episode?
Maybe in 1960's dollars
 
Disgust is really the only reason men would throw money at her.
Yes, the typical reaction to seeing a disgusting woman is to throw money at her.
Yeah, Don wasn't disgusted at all when he did that.
I'm pretty sure there is a PPV Hawaiian Tropic bikini contest on somewhere for you.
Oh, look... I'm being intellectually bullied. YAY!
 
Disgust is really the only reason men would throw money at her.
Yes, the typical reaction to seeing a disgusting woman is to throw money at her.
Yeah, Don wasn't disgusted at all when he did that.
I'm pretty sure there is a PPV Hawaiian Tropic bikini contest on somewhere for you.
:lmao:
:lmao:
 
Disgust is really the only reason men would throw money at her.
Yes, the typical reaction to seeing a disgusting woman is to throw money at her.
Yeah, Don wasn't disgusted at all when he did that.
I'm pretty sure there is a PPV Hawaiian Tropic bikini contest on somewhere for you.
:lmao:
:lmao:
Seriously?Buncha nerds.

 
L.A. Times. Not Sepinwall, but not bad.

You know you've got a dramatic "Mad Men" when Peggy leaves the agency and it’s only the second most stunning thing that happens in the episode. In "The Other Woman," Joan finally gets the partnership she's long deserved but she has to pay an almost unimaginable price to make it happen. Meanwhile, Peggy makes the painful decision to leave Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce -- or should I say Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce Harris? -- because someone else is willing to pay her what she's actually worth.

The episode's title is, of course, an allusion to the misogynist Jaguar pitch, and to Joan's degrading but profitable tryst with the repellent Herb Rennet -- a character so thoroughly vile he's named after the gunk they use to make cheese. But to me, it also hints at the stark contrast between Peggy and Joan, two characters who have so very much in common yet, when it comes down to it, are playing by diametrically opposite rules.

Joan, a woman whose considerable business savvy will always be secondary to her sex appeal, represents the endgame of the pre-feminist playbook. She's essential, but she'll always be devalued because she does "women's work." Peggy is every bit as competent as Joan, but she's a creative and therefore gets ahead by effectively neutering herself -- by dressing like a boy and tossing back whiskey like it's water.

Both women grapple with the same question in "The Other Woman" -- just how much am I worth? -- but they come up with completely different answers. This may be the saddest thing in one of the saddest episodes of "Mad Men" I can recall: Despite their shared experiences, there's a gulf between Peggy and Joan that can never quite be bridged.

Joan has long been one of my favorite characters on "Mad Men" because of her tragic mix of confidence and vulnerability. When I think of the most poignant moments in the history of the series, I inevitably go back to Joan -- to her brief tenure as a script reader, to that heartbreaking accordion performance, to the time her fiance raped her on the floor of Don Draper's office.

But Joan beats her own record in "The Other Woman" by agreeing to sleep with Herb in exchange for a 5% stake in the agency. Like Lane's miraculous back taxes from last week, it's a plot development that feels schematic and rather contrived. (It reminds me of nothing so much as "Indecent Proposal.") It's hardly subtle, but it's also in keeping with the blunt direction the series has taken this season. Joan has always used her sexuality to get ahead, but now she's literally sleeping her way to the top.

Unlike last week, though, the emotional payoff excuses the rather indelicate plotting. Joan reacts with mild amusement, then offense, to the offer, before finally accepting it. Believing that all the partners, including Don, are on board with the idea, Joan pays a visit to Herb's hotel room. It's telling that Joan's decision hinges so much on what the men, especially Don, think. As long as they continue to think of her as a kind of prostitute, why shouldn't she?

That's why Don's visit to Joan's apartment -- which, we only discover later, comes after she's been to Herb's hotel room -- is so devastating. Joan realizes that Don never agreed to the idea in the first place. It's clear that, had she known, Joan never would have gone through with it. As a newly minted partner, Joan sashays into Roger's office the next morning, but the look she exchanges with Don says it all: He's shocked and disgusted, she's deeply ashamed.

Peggy's trajectory is quite different. Frustrated by getting Ginsberg's scraps and humiliated for the last time by Don, she meets with her old pal Freddy Rumsen. He tells her what we all probably know but have been afraid to admit to ourselves: She needs to move on. Peggy herself doesn't seem entirely sure until she meets with Ted Chaogh, Don's arch-rival.

Dressed in a sassy little dress and scarf, Peggy is nervous and unable to eat, like a girl on a first date. She's also modest and bashful, giving credit to her collaborators and writing down the salary she wants rather than uttering it out loud. (Peggy might try to be a man, but when it comes to asking for what she wants, she's still very much a traditional woman.) So when Ted actually offers her a higher salary, plus the title of "copy chief," it's as if Peggy has finally seen the light. It's high time she dumps the boyfriend who takes her for granted.

Unfortunately, this means she has to tell Don something that, quite understandably, she dreads. A running theme this season has been Don's fear of abandonment. Megan's decision to leave advertising threw him into an existential tailspin from which he's yet to completely recover, and now he's panicked at the idea that her acting career could take her away from him for months at a time.

But Peggy's defection might be the toughest blow yet to befall Don. Jon Hamm and Elisabeth Moss play this scene so perfectly. She's nervous and apologetic, but firm in her resolve; he's snide and cutting, but ultimately devastated. After Peggy makes it clear that she's moving on, he takes her hand and kisses it. It's a loaded gesture, at once subservient, tender and romantic, as well as a callback to Peggy's first day on the job. As mad as Don is, the kiss betrays his true feelings: He's already forgiven her. "Don't be a stranger," Peggy says, fighting back tears. Peggy is clearly making the right decision, and yet it also feels like she's betraying Don in a fundamental way.

So now we're looking at the prospect of a Peggy-free "Mad Men," a possibility I'd never really entertained in the past. Series creator Matthew Weiner tends to be ruthless when it comes to writing off characters to serve the larger narrative (see: Sal, Paul, Carla), but Peggy has always seemed like a non-negotiable, second only to Don. It's no accident that "Mad Men" started on her first day at the office. She's the audience proxy, our way in to the once-foreign world of 1960s advertising. "Mad Men" can go on without Peggy, but I'm not sure I want it to without the basic sense of decency she brings.

Of course, I could be jumping the gun here somewhat. Just because Peggy is leaving the agency doesn't necessarily mean she won't be on the show anymore. It's not inconceivable that she'll pop up now and again, the way that post-divorce Betty does, but even this possibility worries me. If "Mad Men” loses Peggy the way it has Betty, I'm not sure the series can ever be the same.

Though I applaud Weiner and co-writer Semi Chellas for doing right by Peggy -- who would no doubt feel even more confident in her decision if she knew the entire story behind Joan's partnership -- I can't help but wonder if they've done right by the show. Then again, maybe I'm just implicating myself in this sexist mess by even saying that. If I really care about Peggy, I should want her to thrive, not to stick around an abusive workplace just because she and Don share a special, albeit dysfunctional, bond.

Whatever the case may be, it's a testament to the power of "Mad Men" -- and to Peggy in particular -- that I’m even talking about a fictional character in these kinds of terms and that, the morning after watching this episode, I'm still overwhelmed by the sadness of it all.
 
N.Y. Times

Words like “game changer” and “historic episode” will be thrown around regarding “The Other Woman,” Sunday night’s installment of “Mad Men.” (Episode 11, meaning just two more to go in Season 5.) But essentially two things happened: Joan prostituted herself and Peggy quit. One woman moves ahead at Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce by selling her body, while the other finally gives in to the fact that the only way she can keep her integrity and advance her career is to leave. Cheerful!

It was a plot-heavy, complicated episode, abounding in parallels and thematic juggling — I look forward to having all of you unwind that for us in the comments. It ended with Peggy, having gotten a better offer ($19,000 a year to be copy chief at another firm) and giving Don her notice, smiling as she stepped into the elevator to leave — the same elevator that symbolically trapped Don in the office a few weeks ago.

But before that, most of the episode revolved around the indecent proposal an important figure at Jaguar made to Sterling Cooper: his vote for their pitch in return for a night with Joan. Don would have none of it, leaving the meeting at which it was discussed (as was pointed out several times, all he seems to do is leave these days). In his absence, Pete, Roger (!), Lane and Bert agreed to sound out Joan.

Joan’s rendezvous was entwined with Lane’s embezzlement, in an icky swirl of lies and compromises. Pete suggested offering her $50,000 in cash, which could have led to the discovery of Lane’s theft. Lane pre-empted this by going to Joan and suggesting she ask for a stake in the firm instead — manipulation upon manipulation.

Appropriately, the episode’s big scene depended on lying to the audience. Don, belatedly discovering that the prostitution scheme was in action, sped to Joan’s apartment and told her not to go through with it — he would win the account honestly at the pitch the next morning. Joan said, “You’re a good one, aren’t you?” and put a hand on his cheek. Then we saw the Sterling Cooper boys arriving at Jaguar and Don beginning his pitch: a man may not be able to have the beautiful woman of his dreams, but he can have the beautiful car. Suddenly, though, the scene was intercut with Joan at the Jaguar man’s apartment. Had she ignored Don’s appeal? No — we’d been Rashomoned. Now we saw that Joan had already carried out her mission and returned home before Don arrived, too late. To compound the painful ironies of the situation, we also saw the Jaguar man smiling and shaking his head at Don’s pitch — an indication that Don was right, and Joan didn’t have to go through with it.

So while the Jaguar is a stand-in for the unattainable other woman, Joan’s story shows us that in the dirty world of Madison Avenue, a balding car dealer can have the other woman, as long as she gets a 5 percent stake in an ad agency. Meanwhile Don, who in his pitch referred to the unattainable object speeding by just out of reach — “because they do that, don’t they, beautiful things?” — is grumpy because his own beautiful thing, Megan, continues to speed away from him, auditioning for a play that could require her to move to Boston for three months.

Having lost his illusions about Joan and fearing that he might be losing control of his wife, Don then suffered the greatest loss of all when Peggy, spurred by her Freddy Rumsen, finally went looking for another job. The last straw — and it was a shocking one — came when Peggy complained about being passed over, once again, for Mike Ginsberg, whom she allegedly supervises. Don, irritated, blew up at her and threw a wad of bills at her head, humiliating her in front of Ken and Harry. (Over the top? I thought so.)

The scene of Joan’s tryst was the episode’s flashy piece de resistance, but the more important scene by far was Peggy’s giving notice to a still grumpy Don while the rest of the office celebrated the winning of the Jaguar account. (Peggy was playing second fiddle even as she took her biggest step so far.) Just as he assumed that Megan would never actually succeed on Broadway, he now assumed he could throw some money at Peggy — figuratively this time — and she would stay. As he began to realize he was wrong, sourness turned to anger, but as Peggy said, “I’m sorry, but you know that this is what you would do.” Then she held out her hand to Don — echoing a hilariously awkward earlier scene when Pete offered to shake Joan’s hand to seal the sale of her services. Unlike Joan, Don took the offered hand, but instead of shaking it he clasped it and kissed it, seemingly sealing the divorce with his office wife. And then he was alone at his desk once more.

A few thoughts and questions before the comments:

Did it seem like Roger acquiesced awfully quickly in the selling of Joan, the mother of his child?

Did you catch all the instances of money being wielded in the episode? Herb from Jaguar hands a restaurant bill to Ken, but then offers to buy a final round of drinks as encouragement. Roger orders in lobster from the Palm. Chevalier Blanc cites falling sales when it threatens to pull its ad, before Peggy saves the day. Don angrily throws money at Peggy. A reference to Cleopatra as a famous courtesan could also have been a reference to “Cleopatra,” the famously expensive Elizabeth Taylor film from a few years before.

It was an interesting, if not very credible, touch when the Jaguar man gave Joan an emerald necklace — having been observant enough, if not thoughtful enough, to notice that green was the right color for her. He then compared her to Helen of Troy. Well, she did start a war of sorts within the office. Joan’s increased screen time brought home something I’ve been thinking about: fans of the show clearly prefer Joan to Megan, and will comment at length about what aspects of the characters and the writing cause their preference. But the most important thing, really, is that Christina Hendricks is a better and more charismatic performer than Jessica Pare, a fact that can get lost in all the Matt Weiner worship. The characters aren’t real — not that you’d know that from the way they get talked about — but the actresses are.
As is a cardboard box.
 

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