Mad Men on AMC (1 Viewer)

[Christo]

Does a dog tag have a birth date or social security number? If not, he might never have known it. It's not like **** came back to the US and actually assumed Don's life. He just used his persona to create a new life.

Don Draper's wife would have known this info.

Sure, but do we know exactly when that relationship became trustworthy? Before or after he started working at Stirling Cooper? Because the secretary said she took the information from his employment file.

 

[gump]

Any chance Don can blackmail Lee Garner Jr into staying with SCDP?

 

[Sam Quentin]

Any chance Don can blackmail Lee Garner Jr into staying with SCDP?

I was under the impression that it wasn't his decision

 

[McJose]

So you guys think that Joan kept the baby, right? I was 99% sure that was the case until she had that conversation with Roger later and I thought maybe I had it wrong.

Also, can somebody explain the whole **** Whitman/Don Draper thing in the clearest possible way? My wife was asking questions about it yesterday and at first I was really condescending but then realized I didn't have very good answers to her questions. Like, if the government thought **** Whitman died and Don Draper lived, why didn't they consider Don Draper to be a deserter when he suddenly disappeared? Or was it just that the real Don's tour of duty was up but the real **** had more time to put in? Also, if he completely assumed the identity of Don Draper, why were there any lies in his personnel file that wouldn't check out? Wouldn't he just have written down the real Don Draper's age and social security number or whatever?

The bolded is likely the biggest fear he has. I'm guessing he started using his own bday, etc. He likely figured "what's the difference / harm"?

I think the way it worked was the Don Draper was discharged either due to his stint being up or his wounds or both. **** Whitman, however, was an FNG and probably would have been sent back after he healed up.As far as the birthdays go, I think Whitman has always used Draper's DOB.

I remember back a couple of seasons ago I tried to figure out how old ****/Don was when he went to Korea. His brother Adam said he was only 8 when **** left so that would make **** about 19 at the most. Assuming **** Whitman went to Korea at the beginning of the war, 1950, his birth year would be 1931ish. Then in another episode, set in 1962, Draper is at the doctor's office for a physical and says that he is 36. This would mean he was born in 1926 give or take a few months.

I'm just guessing ****/Don continued to use the real Draper's DOB and is actually younger than he claims.

 

[Christo]

Any chance Don can blackmail Lee Garner Jr into staying with SCDP?

I was under the impression that it wasn't his decision

That's what he wanted Roger to think. But who knows if it's true. At one moment Lee's saying he has no control, that the decision was already made and they'd be by to get their files. The next he's saying he can buy Roger 30 days.

 

[Christo]

So you guys think that Joan kept the baby, right? I was 99% sure that was the case until she had that conversation with Roger later and I thought maybe I had it wrong.

Also, can somebody explain the whole **** Whitman/Don Draper thing in the clearest possible way? My wife was asking questions about it yesterday and at first I was really condescending but then realized I didn't have very good answers to her questions. Like, if the government thought **** Whitman died and Don Draper lived, why didn't they consider Don Draper to be a deserter when he suddenly disappeared? Or was it just that the real Don's tour of duty was up but the real **** had more time to put in? Also, if he completely assumed the identity of Don Draper, why were there any lies in his personnel file that wouldn't check out? Wouldn't he just have written down the real Don Draper's age and social security number or whatever?

The bolded is likely the biggest fear he has. I'm guessing he started using his own bday, etc. He likely figured "what's the difference / harm"?

I think the way it worked was the Don Draper was discharged either due to his stint being up or his wounds or both. **** Whitman, however, was an FNG and probably would have been sent back after he healed up.As far as the birthdays go, I think Whitman has always used Draper's DOB.

I remember back a couple of seasons ago I tried to figure out how old ****/Don was when he went to Korea. His brother Adam said he was only 8 when **** left so that would make **** about 19 at the most. Assuming **** Whitman went to Korea at the beginning of the war, 1950, his birth year would be 1931ish. Then in another episode, set in 1962, Draper is at the doctor's office for a physical and says that he is 36. This would mean he was born in 1926 give or take a few months.

I'm just guessing ****/Don continued to use the real Draper's DOB and is actually younger than he claims.

It'll be interesting to find out what the three pieces of information are that Don thinks were lies. Does Don consider the name Don Draper itself to be a lie. Or are the "lies" pieces of information that don't belong to Don Draper?

 

[McJose]

Finally caught up a few weeks ago on the entire series, which I think is solid.....I'm sure you guys do it up well in here!One question I've been tugging at while catching up the past few months is this: The baby...is it Don's or do we not know for sure? Betty was with that one random dude at the bar, then Don/Betty sorta made up and she went to Italy with Don, then she was knocked up. It's quite possible my timeline is messed up here.

Betty was already pregnant when she had the barroom tryst with the random guy...whom I call "The Luckiest SOB in NYC".

 

[badmojo1006]

So you guys think that Joan kept the baby, right? I was 99% sure that was the case until she had that conversation with Roger later and I thought maybe I had it wrong.

Also, can somebody explain the whole **** Whitman/Don Draper thing in the clearest possible way? My wife was asking questions about it yesterday and at first I was really condescending but then realized I didn't have very good answers to her questions. Like, if the government thought **** Whitman died and Don Draper lived, why didn't they consider Don Draper to be a deserter when he suddenly disappeared? Or was it just that the real Don's tour of duty was up but the real **** had more time to put in? Also, if he completely assumed the identity of Don Draper, why were there any lies in his personnel file that wouldn't check out? Wouldn't he just have written down the real Don Draper's age and social security number or whatever?

The bolded is likely the biggest fear he has. I'm guessing he started using his own bday, etc. He likely figured "what's the difference / harm"?

I think the way it worked was the Don Draper was discharged either due to his stint being up or his wounds or both. **** Whitman, however, was an FNG and probably would have been sent back after he healed up.As far as the birthdays go, I think Whitman has always used Draper's DOB.

I remember back a couple of seasons ago I tried to figure out how old ****/Don was when he went to Korea. His brother Adam said he was only 8 when **** left so that would make **** about 19 at the most. Assuming **** Whitman went to Korea at the beginning of the war, 1950, his birth year would be 1931ish. Then in another episode, set in 1962, Draper is at the doctor's office for a physical and says that he is 36. This would mean he was born in 1926 give or take a few months.

I'm just guessing ****/Don continued to use the real Draper's DOB and is actually younger than he claims.

It'll be interesting to find out what the three pieces of information are that Don thinks were lies. Does Don consider the name Don Draper itself to be a lie. Or are the "lies" pieces of information that don't belong to Don Draper?

Start with his name.

 

[McJose]

So you guys think that Joan kept the baby, right? I was 99% sure that was the case until she had that conversation with Roger later and I thought maybe I had it wrong.

Also, can somebody explain the whole **** Whitman/Don Draper thing in the clearest possible way? My wife was asking questions about it yesterday and at first I was really condescending but then realized I didn't have very good answers to her questions. Like, if the government thought **** Whitman died and Don Draper lived, why didn't they consider Don Draper to be a deserter when he suddenly disappeared? Or was it just that the real Don's tour of duty was up but the real **** had more time to put in? Also, if he completely assumed the identity of Don Draper, why were there any lies in his personnel file that wouldn't check out? Wouldn't he just have written down the real Don Draper's age and social security number or whatever?

The bolded is likely the biggest fear he has. I'm guessing he started using his own bday, etc. He likely figured "what's the difference / harm"?

I think the way it worked was the Don Draper was discharged either due to his stint being up or his wounds or both. **** Whitman, however, was an FNG and probably would have been sent back after he healed up.As far as the birthdays go, I think Whitman has always used Draper's DOB.

I remember back a couple of seasons ago I tried to figure out how old ****/Don was when he went to Korea. His brother Adam said he was only 8 when **** left so that would make **** about 19 at the most. Assuming **** Whitman went to Korea at the beginning of the war, 1950, his birth year would be 1931ish. Then in another episode, set in 1962, Draper is at the doctor's office for a physical and says that he is 36. This would mean he was born in 1926 give or take a few months.

I'm just guessing ****/Don continued to use the real Draper's DOB and is actually younger than he claims.

It'll be interesting to find out what the three pieces of information are that Don thinks were lies. Does Don consider the name Don Draper itself to be a lie. Or are the "lies" pieces of information that don't belong to Don Draper?

1. His real name2. His DOB

3. He's not really a competitive fly-fisherman

 

[jwb]

So you guys think that Joan kept the baby, right? I was 99% sure that was the case until she had that conversation with Roger later and I thought maybe I had it wrong.

Also, can somebody explain the whole **** Whitman/Don Draper thing in the clearest possible way? My wife was asking questions about it yesterday and at first I was really condescending but then realized I didn't have very good answers to her questions. Like, if the government thought **** Whitman died and Don Draper lived, why didn't they consider Don Draper to be a deserter when he suddenly disappeared? Or was it just that the real Don's tour of duty was up but the real **** had more time to put in? Also, if he completely assumed the identity of Don Draper, why were there any lies in his personnel file that wouldn't check out? Wouldn't he just have written down the real Don Draper's age and social security number or whatever?

The bolded is likely the biggest fear he has. I'm guessing he started using his own bday, etc. He likely figured "what's the difference / harm"?

I think the way it worked was the Don Draper was discharged either due to his stint being up or his wounds or both. **** Whitman, however, was an FNG and probably would have been sent back after he healed up.As far as the birthdays go, I think Whitman has always used Draper's DOB.

I remember back a couple of seasons ago I tried to figure out how old ****/Don was when he went to Korea. His brother Adam said he was only 8 when **** left so that would make **** about 19 at the most. Assuming **** Whitman went to Korea at the beginning of the war, 1950, his birth year would be 1931ish. Then in another episode, set in 1962, Draper is at the doctor's office for a physical and says that he is 36. This would mean he was born in 1926 give or take a few months.

I'm just guessing ****/Don continued to use the real Draper's DOB and is actually younger than he claims.

It'll be interesting to find out what the three pieces of information are that Don thinks were lies. Does Don consider the name Don Draper itself to be a lie. Or are the "lies" pieces of information that don't belong to Don Draper?

Yea, now that I think about this more, I don't understand why he was flagged. Draper lived / Whitman died, the guy standing there now is Draper. That's that. Assuming he used the real Draper's info (dob / ss# / etc) the only real loose end is that other people (Betty / Pete) "know".

So it almost must be that he didn't use the real Draper's info, because he didn't know it at the time. That would be the only reason he'd be worried.

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

I don't understand why he was flagged.

This reminds me that my wife and I needed to rewind the DVR like eight times to figure out if Pete Campbell said "your file was flagged" or "your file wasn't flagged." Even after watching all those times we weren't sure. Probably should have done another take on that one, Weiner.

 

[Christo]

So you guys think that Joan kept the baby, right? I was 99% sure that was the case until she had that conversation with Roger later and I thought maybe I had it wrong.

Also, can somebody explain the whole **** Whitman/Don Draper thing in the clearest possible way? My wife was asking questions about it yesterday and at first I was really condescending but then realized I didn't have very good answers to her questions. Like, if the government thought **** Whitman died and Don Draper lived, why didn't they consider Don Draper to be a deserter when he suddenly disappeared? Or was it just that the real Don's tour of duty was up but the real **** had more time to put in? Also, if he completely assumed the identity of Don Draper, why were there any lies in his personnel file that wouldn't check out? Wouldn't he just have written down the real Don Draper's age and social security number or whatever?

The bolded is likely the biggest fear he has. I'm guessing he started using his own bday, etc. He likely figured "what's the difference / harm"?

I think the way it worked was the Don Draper was discharged either due to his stint being up or his wounds or both. **** Whitman, however, was an FNG and probably would have been sent back after he healed up.As far as the birthdays go, I think Whitman has always used Draper's DOB.

I remember back a couple of seasons ago I tried to figure out how old ****/Don was when he went to Korea. His brother Adam said he was only 8 when **** left so that would make **** about 19 at the most. Assuming **** Whitman went to Korea at the beginning of the war, 1950, his birth year would be 1931ish. Then in another episode, set in 1962, Draper is at the doctor's office for a physical and says that he is 36. This would mean he was born in 1926 give or take a few months.

I'm just guessing ****/Don continued to use the real Draper's DOB and is actually younger than he claims.

It'll be interesting to find out what the three pieces of information are that Don thinks were lies. Does Don consider the name Don Draper itself to be a lie. Or are the "lies" pieces of information that don't belong to Don Draper?

Yea, now that I think about this more, I don't understand why he was flagged. Draper lived / Whitman died, the guy standing there now is Draper. That's that. Assuming he used the real Draper's info (dob / ss# / etc) the only real loose end is that other people (Betty / Pete) "know".

So it almost must be that he didn't use the real Draper's info, because he didn't know it at the time. That would be the only reason he'd be worried.

If he used ****'s birth date, that's not a lie.

 

[Sam Quentin]

I don't understand why he was flagged.

This reminds me that my wife and I needed to rewind the DVR like eight times to figure out if Pete Campbell said "your file was flagged" or "your file wasn't flagged." Even after watching all those times we weren't sure. Probably should have done another take on that one, Weiner.

File was not flaggedDick was concerned about them maybe talking other people from Draper's past (relatives, friends, neighbors) and things not adding up.

 

[Pooch]

I was confused a little at the end when Don looks down at the tickets and then up at Megan. My first thought was that he was considering letting Megan take Sally to the Beatles concert. No?

If he's considering hitting on Megan I certainly can't blame him but he's really got a little too much going on right now to even contemplate doing that doesn't he? What about Faye?

 

[Bobcat10]

Finally caught up a few weeks ago on the entire series, which I think is solid.....I'm sure you guys do it up well in here!One question I've been tugging at while catching up the past few months is this: The baby...is it Don's or do we not know for sure? Betty was with that one random dude at the bar, then Don/Betty sorta made up and she went to Italy with Don, then she was knocked up. It's quite possible my timeline is messed up here.

Betty was already pregnant when she had the barroom tryst with the random guy...whom I call "The Luckiest SOB in NYC".

OK thanks. That's been bothering me for a while now but I didn't want to come in here before I caught up.And I thought I had the flagged file stuff all figured out....til now...

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

I think the way it worked was the Don Draper was discharged either due to his stint being up or his wounds or both. **** Whitman, however, was an FNG and probably would have been sent back after he healed up.

Would this be information that **** knew at the time that he first lied and said he was Draper? Somebody remind me how it all went down.

 

[McJose]

I think the way it worked was the Don Draper was discharged either due to his stint being up or his wounds or both. **** Whitman, however, was an FNG and probably would have been sent back after he healed up.

Would this be information that **** knew at the time that he first lied and said he was Draper? Somebody remind me how it all went down.

Not sure. Don/****, at the very least, had Draper's serial number. Who knows about the rest. Maybe he got it all from looking at his (Draper's) charts in the hospital or his personnel file when he was discharged.

 

[Christo]

I was confused a little at the end when Don looks down at the tickets and then up at Megan. My first thought was that he was considering letting Megan take Sally to the Beatles concert. No?If he's considering hitting on Megan I certainly can't blame him but he's really got a little too much going on right now to even contemplate doing that doesn't he? What about Faye?

Let me tell you a little bit about Don Draper. When it comes to women he always does what will make his life more complicated. The only two things on his mind in that scene were (1) relief that Harry had come through with the tickets and (2) how to get Megan in bed.

 

[McJose]

I was confused a little at the end when Don looks down at the tickets and then up at Megan. My first thought was that he was considering letting Megan take Sally to the Beatles concert. No?

If he's considering hitting on Megan I certainly can't blame him but he's really got a little too much going on right now to even contemplate doing that doesn't he? What about Faye?

Let me tell you a little bit about Don Draper. When it comes to women he always does what will make his life more complicated. The only two things on his mind in that scene were (1) relief that Harry had come through with the tickets and (2) how to get Megan in bed.

On the surface it would seem like he just doesn't think before he acts (or thinking with the little head instead of the big one). But as the show progressed it's obvious that it is deliberate.

 

[scoobygang]

On the surface it would seem like he just doesn't think before he acts (or thinking with the little head instead of the big one). But as the show progressed it's obvious that it is deliberate.

I'm not sure he would view a relationship with Meghan as more complicated. If anything, it seems more simple. Faye is offering him a relationship of equals with someone who has seen the "real" Don Draper and has still decided she could love him. He didn't seem particularly appreciative of that at all.Meghan seems to offer a star struck naivete and a nearly pathological need to please a man she hero-worships. I don't think it's a stretch that Don would prefer Meghan, particularly because the show has shown several times that Don is not nearly as modern as he believes himself to be.

 

[Raider Nation]

SEPINWALL

"Hands and Knees" ends before we get to see Don take Sally to The Beatles' famous Shea Stadium concert, but the credits are accompanied by an instrumental version of the band's "Do You Want to Know a Secret?" - as apt a closing song choice as the show has used, given the number of secrets poisoning the atmosphere at Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce. And the episode's answer to the question posed in the song's title seems to be a definite "no."

Most obviously, the ghost of **** Whitman comes back to haunt Don again when it eludes his and Pete's notice that the North American deal will require security clearances for the top creative people, and Pete has to flush a $4 million account (and take the blame for blowing it) to protect the man around whom everything at the agency revolves. ($4 mil is nice, but no Draper = no agency, no matter what a panicked, drunk Don tries to tell Pete.)

But when Don and Pete enter the partners meeting near the end of the episode, they're far from the only people in the room keeping something from the others. Lane's not revealing the real reason he's going back to London, nor how unhappy he is to be doing it. Joan's concealing the abortion she had after her post-mugging tryst with Roger got her pregnant(*), and Roger in turn isn't letting anyone know that in 30 days, the firm will be dead in the water without its most important client in Lucky Strike. The only one in the room who doesn't seem to be keeping something to himself (other than what Dr. Lyle Evans did to him) is Bert Cooper, and that's only because he's a figurehead who has nothing to do, and therefore nothing to hide.

(*) "Mad Men" perhaps unintentionally functions as a great advertisement for safe sex. Peggy gets pregnant the first time she has sex with Pete, before her birth control pills have a chance to work. Betty gets pregnant with Gene from a spontaneous roll on the floor of her childhood bedroom with Don, and here Joan, who we know had gone off her protection to have a baby with Greg, instead gets pregnant from Roger.

In talking with Trudy about the nature but not details of the #### Whitman problem, Pete rails against those who "just walk through life, dragging their lies with them, destroying everything they touch." Leaving aside the hypocrisy of the rant, given the things that Pete has kept from Trudy, it still feels misguided. He's right to resent Don for needing him to kill the North American deal, but he also seems to envy Don for not feeling guiltier about who he really is and what he did in Korea, when we see throughout the episode how crippling that weight still is, even 15 years later.

This was another fantastic Jon Hamm showcase, maybe good enough to at least make him think twice about "The Suitcase" as his Emmy submission. I still think "The Suitcase" has more versatility, but the physical work he does here - first in showing the world closing in on him after Betty tells him about her interview, then in playing the panic attack at the apartment (and that beautifully-framed shot of Don looking very old and green in the gills as he studies his reflection) - is really remarkable, and either this or "The Suitcase" may be enough to finally get some awards love in a non-Cranston year.

This is a far bigger deal for Don than when Pete found out, because Pete was just a little weasel who wanted to use the information to get a promotion; at best, Don could outmaneuver him (as he did with Bert Cooper), and at worst, he could go hobo and Pete wouldn't care enough to send the authorities after him. But these G-men are the real deal, with enormous resources and no hidden agenda, and should they happen to stumble across **** Whitman while conducting a routine hunt for Communist ties, he's in big trouble, and he knows it.

Don tells Faye that he's tired of running, but he also dismisses suggestions from both her and Pete that he could try to face the music and hope that 15 years would mitigate the crime. The thing about this particular secret is that it's one Don can never really escape. **** Whitman is dead as far as the US government and military are concerned, so he's Don Draper until he either dies or goes to prison, always looking over his shoulder, waiting for someone else to come sniffing around his story.

And even though it was clear how much he wanted Betty to still love him after she learned the truth, and how relieved he always was around Anna Draper, he seems less pleased than he should that Dr. Faye has accepted the truth (or the abridged, slightly self-aggrandizing version of it he told her). There's a strange distance between them in the final scene, and after Faye leaves, Don finds himself really noticing Megan for the first time. Is Don so filled with self-loathing that he now intends to treat Faye like the famous Groucho Marx line about how he'd never want to belong to a club that would have him as a member? And having crossed the secretary barrier with Allison, will it be that much easier for him to take his lawyer up on the advice about what to do with Megan?

Though most of the episode's main characters are metaphorically on the hands and knees of the episode's title, begging for someone to get rid of their massive new problem, Lane is the only one who literally ends up in that position, thanks to a shocking blow from his father Robert's walking stick. Like Don, Lane has been running away from his life - not changing his name, but choosing America over his family, and then attempting to rub his father's nose in it with a trip to the Playboy Club to meet his "chocolate bunny" girlfriend Toni. Both Robert and Toni can tell that Lane is showing off for them, and Robert coldly and violently orders his son to come back to England to resolve things one way or the other with his wife and son. In that moment, with Lane crumpled on the floor of his apartment, forced to call his father "sir," we see where the PP&L organizational man - the man St. John Powell could count on to follow orders without hope of reward - came from, and as much as Lane fancies himself a mighty, hedonistic and progressive American, he's still capable of being cowed by British authority figures. And he's too embarrassed by what happened to admit to the other partners what happened.

Joan and Roger were able to keep their original affair a secret from everyone but Cooper, and their back-alley love-making might have remained the same way were it not for the biological evidence of it growing inside Joan. Roger suggests that she could fuzz the date and fool Greg into thinking the baby was his, but what we know but Roger doesn't is how paranoid Greg is about Joan's sexual experience and the men she's around all day at work. Clueless as Greg is in so many areas, I don't think this detail would elude him, and Joan doesn't want to suffer his wrath again.

And yet there's that moment in the deli where, for a half-second, Joan seems to be willing to contemplate a life where she keeps the baby and loses Greg. Roger is offering his usual half-assed proclamations of love(**), telling her "Maybe I'm in love with you," but Joan sounds very serious when he asks, "So you want to keep it?" She'd been prepared from the start to go through with the abortion as the sensible thing to do, but she drops her guard for a moment and gets smacked down when Roger immediately responds by saying, "Of course not." And where she was calm and friendly only moments earlier, there's a hard edge to the rest of their discussion as Joan accepts that this is the corner she's stuck in, and that Roger Sterling will never be the man to get her out.

(**) Clearly, the chemistry between these two characters, and actors, is off-the-charts, but Roger has never expressed the same depth of feeling for Joan that he has for either of the women he married. Matt Weiner told me once that when a post-heart attack Roger called Joan "the finest piece of ### I have ever had," that perhaps that was the most honest assessment of the relationship he'd ever offer.

So she goes to the abortion clinic by herself, and even in the waiting room where everyone knows what they're there for, Joan can't admit to the mother of the pregnant teen that she's there for herself. She invents a 15-year-old daughter, holding tight to the truth.

And of course Roger has a secret of his own to keep, and a bigger crisis to deal with - one that, unlike Don, puts him in actual danger of a heart episode before he pops a nitroglycerin pill under his tongue.

Little do Don or Pete know that they're dumping North American at a moment when the firm could really use that spare $4 million, since the increasingly-corporate American Tobacco has decided it's less interested in Roger's ability to wine and dine Lee Garner Jr. (and then cover up his indiscretions) than in streamlining advertising for all its brands. Lucky Strike is an account Roger inherited from his father, just as Lee Jr. got the company from his old man, but neither is a real decision-maker anymore, and Roger seems ill-equipped to survive in a world where a 12-martini lunch isn't the best solution to every problem, and where the names in his rolodex are dead, dying or as irrelevant as he is.

Roger enters that partners meeting, like the others, with a bit of information he'd love to have blacked out of the public record the way so much of the North American documentation was redacted, and it's unclear what his plan is. He got the 30-day extension from Lee because if the news went public immediately, SCDP would be doomed, as new clients would be reluctant to sign with an agency on the brink of financial ruin, while current ones might be tempted to get out early. But keeping the news a secret from his own colleagues, rather than recruiting Pete and the others to help, seems as dangerous as the last time a Sterling Cooper employee decided to keep a Lee Garner decision to himself, when Harry sat back and let Sal get fired.

With three episodes to go in season four, what kind of rabbit will Roger, Don and company have to pull out of their hats this time to top the creation of SCDP at the end of season three? Does Lee Jr. still have enough power that they could blackmail him over what Don knows?(***) Even if Roger tells everyone soon, can they possibly assemble a client roster to fill that void? (Would Don be willing to get on his hands and knees for Connie Hilton a second time?)

(***) And the anger in John Slattery's voice as Roger mentions "all the lies I've told for you" suggests that perhaps Roger also knows a thing or two about Lee Jr's orientation. Though if that's the case, and he's still so defeated about Lucky Strike, Don's knowledge would be sadly moot.Still, the possibility of the agency surviving without Lucky Strike does bring up the promising possibility of a Sal return in season five.

There's a sense of impending doom throughout "Hands and Knees," one that's certainly not gone as the episode ends. Joan tells Roger that a tragedy was averted, Lane says the firm is fiscally stable, and Megan assures Don that everything worked out, but in all cases, we know the truth, and how bad things really are.

At their farewell lunch, Lee Jr. tells Roger, "There's nothing you can do. Nothing you could do. That's just the way it is." Given the precarious state of things, is there anything any of these people can do to fix it?

Some other thoughts:

• An interesting, sympathetic Betty episode. She's trying to help Don repair the rift with Sally from last week, and is pleased (rather than jealous) to learn that Don got Sally those Beatles tickets. She covers for Don with the G-men because she has no choice - whatever she said to Henry a few weeks back, she doesn't hate Don, and he is the kids' father - but she hates secrets as much as Pete does, because they consumed her first marriage. She wants a more honest relationship with Henry, but even there, she can't tell him everything because she has no idea what Henry would do with the #### Whitman info.

• Roger's rant about Pete's alleged screw-up with North American included the phrase "####ed up," but the audio was dropped on the word, just as it's been on the few occasions where "Breaking Bad" has also used the F-word, which is one of the few words you can't say even on basic cable. While cable isn't regulated by the FCC, channels like AMC not only have to deal with advertisers, but they have carriage deals with the various cable providers that stipulate that they won't include certain content like that. "Breaking Bad" creator Vince Gilligan said he used it a couple of times in that fashion because it was the only word that could make the point a particular scene needed, and I guess Matt Weiner and Jonathan Abrahams felt it was the only way to get the point across about how shocked the partners were by Roger's speech, even if it had to come with no audio for a half-second.

• Sally's reaction to Don's Beatles news is perfectly in keeping with the way many girls and young women responded to the Fab Four back in those days. The crowd at the Shea Stadium concert was so loud and frenzied that the band quickly realized no one could really hear them.

• This was a pretty dark episode, but there were a few brief moments of humor mixed in, like Don and Betty's lame playacting on the phone once it occurred to them that the government might be listening in, and Don telling Faye "You're not a real doctor" in the middle of his panic attack.

• Because Alison Brie is so tiny, I wonder if the costume and makeup people are deliberately having fun with how gigantic Trudy's stomach gets while the rest of her doesn't change at all. It seriously looked like she had a medicine ball hidden under that nightie.

• The $400 for Joan's abortion would have been about $2700 in today's dollars. And it was interesting to contrast the scolding OB/GYN with Joan's friendly relationship with her own doctor (who himself was far more patronizing to Peggy back in 1960). She's developed such a bond with him that she'd rather be told she was "ruined" by this guy than face the possibility of the "I'm very disappointed in you" speech from the doctor who's been helping her try to get pregnant at a relatively advanced age for 1965.

• Joan telling Roger, "Greg dying is not a solution to this" felt just a tiny bit meta, given the number of fans who have been rooting for Dr. Greg to die in combat (if not get fragged by his own men) ever since Vietnam became a possibility for him.

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

On the surface it would seem like he just doesn't think before he acts (or thinking with the little head instead of the big one). But as the show progressed it's obvious that it is deliberate.

I'm not sure he would view a relationship with Meghan as more complicated. If anything, it seems more simple. Faye is offering him a relationship of equals with someone who has seen the "real" Don Draper and has still decided she could love him. He didn't seem particularly appreciative of that at all.Meghan seems to offer a star struck naivete and a nearly pathological need to please a man she hero-worships. I don't think it's a stretch that Don would prefer Meghan, particularly because the show has shown several times that Don is not nearly as modern as he believes himself to be.

Well, it might be less complicated if he started shtupping someone that he didn't work with.

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

Hmmm. Looks like Sepinwall doesn't even consider the possibility that Joan kept the baby. That guy is a fraud.

 

[Christo]

On the surface it would seem like he just doesn't think before he acts (or thinking with the little head instead of the big one). But as the show progressed it's obvious that it is deliberate.

I'm not sure he would view a relationship with Meghan as more complicated. If anything, it seems more simple. Faye is offering him a relationship of equals with someone who has seen the "real" Don Draper and has still decided she could love him. He didn't seem particularly appreciative of that at all.Meghan seems to offer a star struck naivete and a nearly pathological need to please a man she hero-worships. I don't think it's a stretch that Don would prefer Meghan, particularly because the show has shown several times that Don is not nearly as modern as he believes himself to be.

A relationship with Megan would complicate his relationship with Faye.

 

[scoobygang]

A relationship with Megan would complicate his relationship with Faye.

Assuming he still wants a relationship with Faye.

 

[McJose]

SEPINWALL

• Sally's reaction to Don's Beatles news is perfectly in keeping with the way many girls and young women responded to the Fab Four back in those days. The crowd at the Shea Stadium concert was so loud and frenzied that the band quickly realized no one could really hear them.

Thanks, professor. If only there was some way to describe this mania about the Beatles.

 

[McJose]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

 

[scoobygang]

SEPINWALL

• Sally's reaction to Don's Beatles news is perfectly in keeping with the way many girls and young women responded to the Fab Four back in those days. The crowd at the Shea Stadium concert was so loud and frenzied that the band quickly realized no one could really hear them.

Thanks, professor. If only there was some way to describe this mania about the Beatles.

Not the Sep's finest hour.

 

[scoobygang]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

I went into the episode 100% convinced that Joan would be pregnant and would keep the baby. I'm not nearly so sure now. In terms of real drama and pathos, I think it makes it even more compelling for Joan (already at an age where having a kid is difficult after two procedures) aborts her last chance at a child. How would she hide it from Roger?

 

[Christo]

A relationship with Megan would complicate his relationship with Faye.

Assuming he still wants a relationship with Faye.

Big picture scoob, big picture. Whether or not he wants to keep their personal relationship they have a professional relationship.

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

How would she hide it from Roger?

She could ask Peggy for some advice on this issue.

 

[jdoggydogg]

I was confused a little at the end when Don looks down at the tickets and then up at Megan. My first thought was that he was considering letting Megan take Sally to the Beatles concert. No?If he's considering hitting on Megan I certainly can't blame him but he's really got a little too much going on right now to even contemplate doing that doesn't he? What about Faye?

Let me tell you a little bit about Don Draper. When it comes to women he always does what will make his life more complicated. The only two things on his mind in that scene were (1) relief that Harry had come through with the tickets and (2) how to get Megan in bed.

There's no doubt that the old Don would sleep with Megan in a heartbeat. But I think we're seeing a different kind of Don. Not that he'll never sleep around again, but that his self-examination is making him realize he can't just constantly blow through life like a juggernaut without paying a price.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

A relationship with Megan would complicate his relationship with Faye.

Assuming he still wants a relationship with Faye.

I think he does.Draper's real wife dying affected him deeply because she was the only one who really knew him. I think it's obvious that Don needs this type of relationship to continue to function in his fictional one and Faye seems to have good reads on him like Draper's wife did.But perhaps these types of relationships are not sexual ones. I don't have any reason to believe he slept with Draper's wife and the only other person that knows him very well, Peggy, is another relationship that is not sexual in nature.So perhaps once Don/**** lets his guard down to women, the sexual desires are not the same? Just a guess because it seems pretty obvioius that he both needs Faye as another rock in his life and is now developing a purely sexual attraction to Megan.

 

[scoobygang]

How would she hide it from Roger?

She could ask Peggy for some advice on this issue.

Yeah, that's why I don't think they'd do it. Two concealed/(or in Peggy's case unknown) pregnancies just seems like a bit much. Obviously, they didn't show her having the procedure. So it's ambiguous. But I think I prefer the reading where she goes ahead and does it.

 

[Statorama]

VERY proud of this show for the whole Beatles tickets thing. So many other lame shows would have created some drama by making the tickets unavailable.

"Sorry Don, couldn't get the tickets"

"Oh no, now my daughter is REALLY going to hate me"

When he told his daughter he had tickets and she screamed, I thought uh oh...should have had those IN HAND when you said that, because you KNOW what comes next in scriptland.

Tickets came through though. Just another in the very small things I like about this show.

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

Obviously, they didn't show her having the procedure. So it's ambiguous.

Well, I think this makes it more than just ambiguous, it makes it more likely than not that it didn't happen. On a show obsessed with historical details it seems likely to me that they would have shown what a pre-Roe abortion procedure was like (this is where my wife thought the scene was going). And Joan certainly conveyed misgivings about going through with it, first with Roger in the coffee shop and then in the waiting room where the woman assumed Joan had a daughter. It also was convenient that neither Roger nor anyone else from the show was present to witness what did or didn't happen. It just seems to me that the whole thing would have been written in a different way if she had actually had the abortion.

 

[Bobcat10]

VERY proud of this show for the whole Beatles tickets thing. So many other lame shows would have created some drama by making the tickets unavailable."Sorry Don, couldn't get the tickets""Oh no, now my daughter is REALLY going to hate me"When he told his daughter he had tickets and she screamed, I thought uh oh...should have had those IN HAND when you said that, because you KNOW what comes next in scriptland.Tickets came through though. Just another in the very small things I like about this show.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

I'm pretty sure Joan had the abortion but you played right into Wiener's game here by asking the question. He did leave it ambiguous to get post game chatter, that's all.

 

[McJose]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

She very easily could have had a baby in some sort of maternity home 15 years ago. Not totally unrealistic.

 

[Christo]

Obviously, they didn't show her having the procedure. So it's ambiguous.

Well, I think this makes it more than just ambiguous, it makes it more likely than not that it didn't happen. On a show obsessed with historical details it seems likely to me that they would have shown what a pre-Roe abortion procedure was like (this is where my wife thought the scene was going). And Joan certainly conveyed misgivings about going through with it, first with Roger in the coffee shop and then in the waiting room where the woman assumed Joan had a daughter. It also was convenient that neither Roger nor anyone else from the show was present to witness what did or didn't happen. It just seems to me that the whole thing would have been written in a different way if she had actually had the abortion.

Doctors didn't actually use coat hangers in alleys before Roe.

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

She very easily could have had a baby in some sort of maternity home 15 years ago. Not totally unrealistic.

I'm not saying it's impossible for Joan to have a 15 year old kid (although I'm not sure how old her character is supposed to be right now so it might be difficult). I'm saying that the scene was clearly intended to convey that Joan was lying because she was ashamed to say that she was there to get the abortion herself.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

Obviously, they didn't show her having the procedure. So it's ambiguous.

Well, I think this makes it more than just ambiguous, it makes it more likely than not that it didn't happen. On a show obsessed with historical details it seems likely to me that they would have shown what a pre-Roe abortion procedure was like (this is where my wife thought the scene was going). And Joan certainly conveyed misgivings about going through with it, first with Roger in the coffee shop and then in the waiting room where the woman assumed Joan had a daughter. It also was convenient that neither Roger nor anyone else from the show was present to witness what did or didn't happen. It just seems to me that the whole thing would have been written in a different way if she had actually had the abortion.

I think you are really going out on a limb here on your assumptions. The most likely thing is that she went through with the abortion, not the other way around. It doesn't seem that likely that they would have showed the procedure either so if that's how you are arriving at your conclusion, I think it's flawed.

 

[McJose]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

She very easily could have had a baby in some sort of maternity home 15 years ago. Not totally unrealistic.

I'm not saying it's impossible for Joan to have a 15 year old kid (although I'm not sure how old her character is supposed to be right now so it might be difficult). I'm saying that the scene was clearly intended to convey that Joan was lying because she was ashamed to say that she was there to get the abortion herself.

She's 34.

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

She very easily could have had a baby in some sort of maternity home 15 years ago. Not totally unrealistic.

This is a huge stretch.

 

[McJose]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

She very easily could have had a baby in some sort of maternity home 15 years ago. Not totally unrealistic.

This is a huge stretch.

Is it really? And I'm not saying this is going to be played out in any way on the show but there is a chance she wasn't making it up.

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

Obviously, they didn't show her having the procedure. So it's ambiguous.

Well, I think this makes it more than just ambiguous, it makes it more likely than not that it didn't happen. On a show obsessed with historical details it seems likely to me that they would have shown what a pre-Roe abortion procedure was like (this is where my wife thought the scene was going). And Joan certainly conveyed misgivings about going through with it, first with Roger in the coffee shop and then in the waiting room where the woman assumed Joan had a daughter. It also was convenient that neither Roger nor anyone else from the show was present to witness what did or didn't happen. It just seems to me that the whole thing would have been written in a different way if she had actually had the abortion.

Doctors didn't actually use coat hangers in alleys before Roe.

Whether or not they actually used coat hangers, they weren't always performed by reputable physicians under the best situations. It's admittedly hard to find unbiased information about exactly how dangerous such abortions were. One strange thing I just learned from this wikipedia link is that before Roe v. Wade, abortions were completely illegal in New Jersey but not in New York. So I wonder if sending her to New Jersey was to keep things discreet or if there was some other reason.

 

[Statorama]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

She very easily could have had a baby in some sort of maternity home 15 years ago. Not totally unrealistic.

I'm not saying it's impossible for Joan to have a 15 year old kid (although I'm not sure how old her character is supposed to be right now so it might be difficult). I'm saying that the scene was clearly intended to convey that Joan was lying because she was ashamed to say that she was there to get the abortion herself.

I took it to mean Joan had an abortion at 15 herself

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.

She very easily could have had a baby in some sort of maternity home 15 years ago. Not totally unrealistic.

This is a huge stretch.

Is it really? And I'm not saying this is going to be played out in any way on the show but there is a chance she wasn't making it up.

Of course it's possible, but getting to this conclusion is a big stretch.

 

[Elbow Truck Driver]

I think you are really going out on a limb here on your assumptions. The most likely thing is that she went through with the abortion, not the other way around. It doesn't seem that likely that they would have showed the procedure either so if that's how you are arriving at your conclusion, I think it's flawed.

I'm not saying that they would have zoomed in on Joan's gigantic 1960s red bush while the doctor poked around in there, but they could have showed her actually going into the room, or in a bed after the procedure had been completed, or something. They didn't do anything like that. They showed her embarrassment in the waiting room. They they showed her on the bus going home. Then she's at work the next day (?) and Roger asks if she should even be on her feet and she says that it's no big deal and "they avoided a tragedy."Who are you gonna believe, me or Sepinwall?