Make the Case (1 Viewer)

[Chase Stuart]

Going to be doing a series of posts in the Shark Pool titled "Make the Case", where we play devil's advocate and argue against the seemingly impossible to argue against.

Today: Make the case that Lawrence Taylor is overrated. It can be that he's the 10th best pass rusher ever instead of the best defensive player ever; i.e., we're not saying that the guy sucks. Just the argument that a player is overrated.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

1. Frequently struggled to beat triple teams

2. Broke Thiesmann's leg only at a 45-50 degree angle. A real man would have gone for 90.

...in all seriousness though.

The defense always seemed to be led by Harry Carson during the Giants true glory years. While he was a terror physically, you see guys like Reggie White and Ray Lewis and can't help but think that those players meant more to those teams and those locker rooms than did Taylor. Fact is that Taylor was largely done being an elite player by the time he was 32 and the hard lifestyle he raged on via probably had something to do with him not being more of a force later in his career.

Lewis meanwhile has made two 1st team All-Pro teams past the age of 32 and at 36 still is one of the better LB's in the NFL. White did as well, notching 16 sacks and a 1st team All-Pro nod at his age 37 season. So from a career longevity standpoint against other GOAT candidates, Taylor falls quite short.

 

[rizzler]

his earring was atrocious. turrible, even.

 

[todisco1]

1. Frequently struggled to beat triple teams

Awesome!

 

[GroveDiesel]

Lawrence Taylor was a wrecking ball, but one whose success was partly enhanced by the play of his teammates. Taylor would often freelance or rush the passer without any concern for the running game. We wasn't BAD in the running game, but his first goal was to get to the QB. His undisciplined play put a larger burden on his teammates to not only fulfill their role, but to cover for LT when he decided to freelance the play. LT wreaked havoc on left tackles and QBs and forced teams to put more stock in their left tackles, but his play was enhanced by the quality of his teammates around him, he didn't necessarily elevate their play except that teams would have to commit to double teaming him. And he certainly wasn't a leader in the locker room or off the field.

Contrast that to a Ray Lewis, Reggie White or a Bruce Smith who were leaders both off and on the field. These guys were not only devastating players, but they played within the playcall and didn't abandon their responsibilities. They not only covered their own responsibilities, but often covered the responsibilities of their teammates as well. They played smart football in addition to being disruptive. By doing so, they enhanced the play of everyone else around them and made the whole unit better. Each of them may have been able to put up better individual numbers if they had been more selfish and left their teammates to their own like LT often did, but their discipline and team play sacrificed their own stats for the betterment of the whole.

There's also something certainly to be said for longevity and being able to contribute to the game over a longer period of time. Bruce Smith had 10 sacks in his 16th year. LT had double digit sacks in 7 years. Bruce Smith put up double digit sacks in 13 different years including a stretch of 12 times in 13 years.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Taylor "only" led the league in sacks once, and ranked in the top five "only" two more times.

 

[netnalp]

Lawrence Taylor was a wrecking ball, but one whose success was partly enhanced by the play of his teammates. Taylor would often freelance or rush the passer without any concern for the running game. We wasn't BAD in the running game, but his first goal was to get to the QB.

I disagree, he regularly would run behind offensive lines and tackle the back for a loss or little to no gain. That was when teams ran away from him, so they'd run at him and he'd still do a good job of beating the double teams to make the play.

 

[JetMaxx]

He did little to revolutionize how the other 3 major sports are played.

 

[Protocols of Stringer Bell]

He did little to revolutionize how the other 3 major sports are played.

I loved this

 

[Amused to Death]

Is coke a PED?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Had to pay for it

 

[Raider Nation]

I don't care for this "Make the Case" series.

You are basically asking us to disrespect the all-time greats, and that's not something I want to do.

 

[gethugefast1]

 

[whatadai]

I just noticed these make the case threads...thought you wanted us to argue that LT didn't touch that kid...

Like a defend an NFL player in court kind of series...

 

[Chase Stuart]

I don't care for this "Make the Case" series. You are basically asking us to disrespect the all-time greats, and that's not something I want to do.

Disrespect is the wrong word. I think a discussion about whether LT is the best defensive player of all time or the 20th best is something that's worthwhile and perhaps educational.

 

[Raider Nation]

I don't care for this "Make the Case" series.

You are basically asking us to disrespect the all-time greats, and that's not something I want to do.

Disrespect is the wrong word. I think a discussion about whether LT is the best defensive player of all time or the 20th best is something that's worthwhile and perhaps educational.

I'm a big fan of most of your work. But this feels... uncomfortable.

 

[madhatter]

I don't care for this "Make the Case" series. You are basically asking us to disrespect the all-time greats, and that's not something I want to do.

,s. This is idiotic, even by magic football standards.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

yeah, what if lawrence taylor reads this thread and finds out somebody else is ranked above him?

btw, is this why you were asking about whether we'd rather have aaron hernandez or ray rice, chase?

 

[Amused to Death]

Is coke a PED?

I posed the question in an off-hand way, but I think it's a valid one if we're debunking LT as the GOAT. By his own admission he was doing thousands of dollars worth a day during his playing days. If he's doing "thousands of dollars worth a day", I doubt he was clean on Sundays. Coke is a known, powerful stimulant that at high doses can cause violent behavior. How much of his on-field play was due to an artificially induced feeling of invincibility?When discussing LT, there's always that "yeah but Reggie played clean" moment for me.

 

[petenice15]

Is coke a PED?

I posed the question in an off-hand way, but I think it's a valid one if we're debunking LT as the GOAT. By his own admission he was doing thousands of dollars worth a day during his playing days. If he's doing "thousands of dollars worth a day", I doubt he was clean on Sundays. Coke is a known, powerful stimulant that at high doses can cause violent behavior. How much of his on-field play was due to an artificially induced feeling of invincibility?When discussing LT, there's always that "yeah but Reggie played clean" moment for me.

And how do you know Reggie didn't have anything in his body???

 

[Amused to Death]

Is coke a PED?

I posed the question in an off-hand way, but I think it's a valid one if we're debunking LT as the GOAT. By his own admission he was doing thousands of dollars worth a day during his playing days. If he's doing "thousands of dollars worth a day", I doubt he was clean on Sundays. Coke is a known, powerful stimulant that at high doses can cause violent behavior. How much of his on-field play was due to an artificially induced feeling of invincibility?When discussing LT, there's always that "yeah but Reggie played clean" moment for me.

And how do you know Reggie didn't have anything in his body???

Do you know that he did? LT admitted it. We know it for a fact.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I don't care for this "Make the Case" series.

You are basically asking us to disrespect the all-time greats, and that's not something I want to do.

Disrespect is the wrong word. I think a discussion about whether LT is the best defensive player of all time or the 20th best is something that's worthwhile and perhaps educational.

I'm a big fan of most of your work. But this feels... uncomfortable.

What, in your opinion, made LT a better player than Derrick Thomas or Kevin Greene?

 

[egoo]

He was only good because he had Bill Belichick coaching him for most of his career. Product of the system

 

[cstu]

He was only good because he had Bill Belichick coaching him for most of his career. Product of the system

I know you're being facetious but there's something to the way he was used. He was allowed to be a roamer who could look for a weak spot in the offense (a RB/FB/TE) who he could beat to get to the QB. Without a solid defense around him (or a less creative HC) to allow him to do that he would not have been as great as a traditional LB.

 

[netnalp]

There is a guy that went on the BBI thread that is stalker-level in love with Julius Peppers. Claims Peppers and Reggie White are better than LT.

Personally I think LT is only second to Jerry Rice. And I like Bruce Smith over White, since Bruce played DE in a 3-4 most of his career.

Peppers I think is a 1st ballot HoF'er but I don't put him over LT, Smith or White.

 

[cstu]

Taylor was also a case of being the right guy at the right time. He was a physical freak offenses hadn't seen before and weren't prepared to deal with. Gibbs had to invent the two tight end set to stop him. If he played now he would have trouble getting by the mammoth athletic TE's we have today.

 

[Shutout]

My thoughts:

It should be mandatory for anyone posting on this to state their age because unless you watched LT play in games and saw the entirety and not highlights, stats and highlights can't begin to do him justice.

Even saying he "only" led the league "x" amount of times, etc completely misses the boat. Lawrence Taylor was the single-most disruptive force in the game...period. He is one of about 3 true guys that completely demanded that you absolutely commit to his presence on every play. The mindset of how the game was played was altered (he literally changed the game of football) because of him. The strip-sack is almost synonymous with him. I say all this while stating that I am not a Giants fan nor am I the most educated person to talk about it, but I know for certain that he was to defenders in his era what Calvin Johnson is to WRs, what manning and Brady have been to QBs in more recent years.

I'm not sure about the nature of a series like this. I think it begs to draw out three types of camps: fans that remember and will laud players heavily, people who will come across contrary without having the benefit of remembering some of these all-time greats actually playing week to week (not just watching highlights, but remembering what it was like to see these guys do this each and every week), and people that will just pop in and say something crass, baseless, or just insulting.

not trying to knock the idea, but I just can't see it having long-term legs. If you open this up on Jerry Rice, you'll hear it all but really what are we nitpicking here? There's not a lot you can say because if you were watching football back in Rice's heyday you KNOW what it was like to sit there, week after week after week after week and just marvel (or despise, depending on your alliances) of how this man excelled and made the rediculous look common to him. And if you have doubts, check the pro's opinions. Almost to a man, anybody you ever saw play in that era nearly universally just says "he's the greatest and its nowhere close". And if we forget that, we can just always remember that HOFer Deion sanders calls him "Jesus in cleats" and that should suffice.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Even saying he "only" led the league "x" amount of times, etc completely misses the boat. Lawrence Taylor was the single-most disruptive force in the game...period. He is one of about 3 true guys that completely demanded that you absolutely commit to his presence on every play. The mindset of how the game was played was altered (he literally changed the game of football) because of him. The strip-sack is almost synonymous with him. I say all this while stating that I am not a Giants fan nor am I the most educated person to talk about it, but I know for certain that he was to defenders in his era what Calvin Johnson is to WRs, what manning and Brady have been to QBs in more recent years.

I don't think Manning, Brady or Calvin Johnson have changed the game of football, do you?I mean Anthony Munoz was an outstanding athlete and somewhat impossible to deal with for defensive ends, but that doesn't mean Munoz changed the game. It's almost the opposite, as Munoz was such a rare athlete that you couldn't do what you did with Munoz on any other team.

I have also never heard anyone say the strip-sack is synonymous with him, or any other player. Do you really think LT was better at that than Deacon Jones?

As for the age comment, I certainly understand some of that. For example, when a younger fan cites Joe Namath's numbers without an understanding of the era, it's hard to take the analysis seriously. That said, this applies to most of LT's backers, too. Do you think the average person who says LT is the GOAT watched Deacon Jones, Len Ford and Doug Atkins play? If an LT backer never watched Gino Marchetti play, does that mean his opinion about LT is uninformed?

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

"Lawrence Taylor, defensively, has had as big an impact as any player I've ever seen," former Raiders coach John Madden said. "He changed the way defense is played, the way pass-rushing is played, the way linebackers play and the way offenses block linebackers."

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016487.html

 

[Shutout]

Even saying he "only" led the league "x" amount of times, etc completely misses the boat. Lawrence Taylor was the single-most disruptive force in the game...period. He is one of about 3 true guys that completely demanded that you absolutely commit to his presence on every play. The mindset of how the game was played was altered (he literally changed the game of football) because of him. The strip-sack is almost synonymous with him. I say all this while stating that I am not a Giants fan nor am I the most educated person to talk about it, but I know for certain that he was to defenders in his era what Calvin Johnson is to WRs, what manning and Brady have been to QBs in more recent years.

I don't think Manning, Brady or Calvin Johnson have changed the game of football, do you?I mean Anthony Munoz was an outstanding athlete and somewhat impossible to deal with for defensive ends, but that doesn't mean Munoz changed the game. It's almost the opposite, as Munoz was such a rare athlete that you couldn't do what you did with Munoz on any other team.

I have also never heard anyone say the strip-sack is synonymous with him, or any other player. Do you really think LT was better at that than Deacon Jones?

As for the age comment, I certainly understand some of that. For example, when a younger fan cites Joe Namath's numbers without an understanding of the era, it's hard to take the analysis seriously. That said, this applies to most of LT's backers, too. Do you think the average person who says LT is the GOAT watched Deacon Jones, Len Ford and Doug Atkins play? If an LT backer never watched Gino Marchetti play, does that mean his opinion about LT is uninformed?

Honestly, I mention calvin and the others as a very simplified way to try to illustrate it to fans that might be reading this that are younger. So, no, not in a true sense, I don't think they changed the games, but on a simpler level, I think younger fans may be able to relate some because a lot of the media and coaches talk about how you have to do special things against guys like this. I'm cetain that there are guys older than me that have the experience of watching guys like Deacon jones and Night train lane and Emlen Tunnell and Gino Marchetti that would say favorable things about those players. And, like you say, its very much tied in to the era they played.

I guess overall, I just see it as this is like asking people to review a 5 hour movie with 99% of us only having watched about 30 minutes of it. the answers are going to be biased to our segment of the movie we watched (our period we were raised in and watched). There are very few people on these forums, I would imagine, that are old enough to walk us through the 50's-present and put it all into perspective.

So, by default, we fall back on our own experience and we take the word of the experts, by and large. Like the post immediately above this one that has John Madden basically saying he changed everything. Or looking at NFL.com archives and their own rankings having LT as one of the top 5 players to ever play. I mean, what is there to argue?

So I accept it. In part because I defer to the John Maddens and the NFL.coms of the world and in part because I DID grow up in that era and I remember him as being the one defender that absolutely wrecked havoc in every game, made all the plays, was the guys that single-handedly undid whatever the Cowboys or Packers or Chiefs, or anyone else was trying to do to him. He was just great.

 

[ShadowMaster]

He was lucky to play in an age before serious steroid testing was in place.

 

[Amused to Death]

He was lucky to play in an age before serious steroid testing was in place.

He was busted twice for coke during his playing days and admitted to using teammate's urine for NFL testing.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Lawrence Taylor, defensively, has had as big an impact as any player I've ever seen. He changed the way defense is played, the way pass-rushing is played, the way linebackers play and the way offenses block linebackers.—John Madden[1]As a freshman playing on special teams, he'd jump a good six or seven feet in the air to block a punt, then land on the back of his neck. He was reckless, just reckless.—North Carolina assistant coach Bobby Cale.[1]In 30 or 40 years, I'm going to take out the tapes and show them to my grandkids. To show them I really played against Lawrence Taylor. The greatest. (He was then asked what he will tell his grandkids) That he was everything they said he was.—Keith Byars.[1]You saw hunger. Some guys were great at playing their position but didn't have that feeling inside and that was something that L.T. had with him every down of every game and he never lost it.—Joe Montana, in response to the question "What did you see when you looked into Taylor's eyes?"[2]All I can say about Lawrence Taylor is that he's the best defensive football player I've seen. I've said many times he's the best player I've seen in my era defensively. Everyone else is a pretender.—Howie Long, when asked whether Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame in 1999 (before Taylor was voted in).[4]I think that he was the greatest football player that I ever stepped on the field against. Nobody dictated what you could do offensively like LT.—Steve Bartkowski[4]He is the Michael Jordan of football.—George Martin[3]A transformation would take place when he'd put on his uniform. He would be transformed into this homicidal maniac.—George Martin[2]We had to try in some way have a special game plan just for Lawrence Taylor. Now you didn't do that very often in this league but I think he's one person that we learned the lesson the hard way. We lost ball games.—Joe Gibbs[2]I mean everything you did (on offense) was predicated to where he was and what he was doing.—John Elway[2]Taylor is the best college linebacker I've ever seen. Sure, I saw **** Butkus play. There's no doubt in my mind about Taylor. He's bigger and stronger than Butkus was. On the blitz, he's devastating.—George Young, on Taylor before he was drafted in 1981[6]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lawrence_Taylor

 

[Shutout]

Lawrence Taylor, defensively, has had as big an impact as any player I've ever seen. He changed the way defense is played, the way pass-rushing is played, the way linebackers play and the way offenses block linebackers.—John Madden[1]As a freshman playing on special teams, he'd jump a good six or seven feet in the air to block a punt, then land on the back of his neck. He was reckless, just reckless.—North Carolina assistant coach Bobby Cale.[1]In 30 or 40 years, I'm going to take out the tapes and show them to my grandkids. To show them I really played against Lawrence Taylor. The greatest. (He was then asked what he will tell his grandkids) That he was everything they said he was.—Keith Byars.[1]You saw hunger. Some guys were great at playing their position but didn't have that feeling inside and that was something that L.T. had with him every down of every game and he never lost it.—Joe Montana, in response to the question "What did you see when you looked into Taylor's eyes?"[2]All I can say about Lawrence Taylor is that he's the best defensive football player I've seen. I've said many times he's the best player I've seen in my era defensively. Everyone else is a pretender.—Howie Long, when asked whether Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame in 1999 (before Taylor was voted in).[4]I think that he was the greatest football player that I ever stepped on the field against. Nobody dictated what you could do offensively like LT.—Steve Bartkowski[4]He is the Michael Jordan of football.—George Martin[3]A transformation would take place when he'd put on his uniform. He would be transformed into this homicidal maniac.—George Martin[2]We had to try in some way have a special game plan just for Lawrence Taylor. Now you didn't do that very often in this league but I think he's one person that we learned the lesson the hard way. We lost ball games.—Joe Gibbs[2]I mean everything you did (on offense) was predicated to where he was and what he was doing.—John Elway[2]Taylor is the best college linebacker I've ever seen. Sure, I saw **** Butkus play. There's no doubt in my mind about Taylor. He's bigger and stronger than Butkus was. On the blitz, he's devastating.—George Young, on Taylor before he was drafted in 1981[6]http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lawrence_Taylor

That should */thread*Really, how can we sit here, having never played at the NFL level, and debate what so many well-respected men who have played with, against, with and against his peers and predeccesors, and coached with and against have said?

 

[The Moz]

Aside from the drug addict aspect

The best Linebacker to ever play and maybe the best Defensive player ever. I mean you had to double triple team him on a pass play or it was a sack. The reason his sack total might not of been as high as you might think -- HE HAD 3 GUYS BLOCKING HIM!!! Countless stops of RB's in the back field and an endless motor and will to destroy.

on D its tough to say who was the greatest Def player -- Reggie White likely the best D Lineman and Ronnie Lott the best all around DB

 

[netnalp]

Aside from the drug addict aspect The best Linebacker to ever play and maybe the best Defensive player ever. I mean you had to double triple team him on a pass play or it was a sack. The reason his sack total might not of been as high as you might think -- HE HAD 3 GUYS BLOCKING HIM!!! Countless stops of RB's in the back field and an endless motor and will to destroy. on D its tough to say who was the greatest Def player -- Reggie White likely the best D Lineman and Ronnie Lott the best all around DB

LT was also i coverage at times, so he wasn't always rushing the QB. He would sometimes be in man-to-man coverage on a WR.

 

[netnalp]

Never sacked Tebow.

 

[cstu]

He was lucky to play in an age before serious steroid testing was in place.

He was busted twice for coke during his playing days and admitted to using teammate's urine for NFL testing.

I wonder how good Derrick Thomas would have been had he played cracked out of his mind?