Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
DNA on the bullet was refuted as well. 
Just sayin'
Just sayin' 
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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter The Flying Elvis
- Start date
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Trial Transcript Day 14 nuggets
...William Newhouse, the guy that examined the .22 cartridge casings, and the infamous item FL, the bullet fragment.
even after testimony about the examination of the DNA samples and the bullet fragment, I'm still waiting for the "a ha" testimony that is going to prove without reasonable doubt that SA killed this woman; so far, I haven't seen it
- Newhouse, the gun expert, said that all 11 casings matched the tool markings from his test fire casings of SA's Marlin .22 rifle
- Newhouse said that item FL, the infamous bullet fragment found in SA's garage, was without a doubt fired from SA's .22 rifle; but item FK, the other recovered bullet fragment, could not be determined to be from SA's rifle (not that it definitely wasn't, just that it couldn't be positively matched to it)
- the rest of the day basically was hooplah about the FL bullet fragment, including close up photos; Defense tried to bring up some reports that were a result of Newhouse's investigation, because some, and item FL in particular, were not signed by his supervisor, but as it turns out, the ones that were signed, had just been selected in an efficiency audit; Newhouse said the fact that he was able to run a report at all, signed or not, proved that his supervisor had "signed off" on their computer system, because that's the way the system worked. No sign off, no report can be generated. --this seemed like a bit of a desperation move by the defense to me
Here were my notes on the bullet frag.Trial Transcript Day 19 nuggets
...
- Roland Johnson actually owned the land and trailer that SA was living in; RJ let SA's infamous girlfriend, Jodi, stay there for free as a favor, then Steve moved in after he got out of prison;
- the .22 rifle belonged to Johnson and he testified he fired the .22 all around the yard all the time, even around the garage
- he even fired into a hole right at the garage door
- the infamous bookcase (from which the RAV key was magically produced - and which was actually a WW2-era record album cabinet) was Johnson's also, and he said to his best recollection, the backing was never loose on it --he didn't live there, but he would come into town and stay there (crash on the couch) from time to time to check on the place and check on Jodi/Steve, as they were friends
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
It's a message board. Snark is always assumed.Fair enough. Hope I wasn't too snarky.
I was going to say that, but didn't have the memory to back it up.DNA on the bullet was refuted as well.
Look i get it that some people have been wrongly convicted....mistakes have been made....but to really think that somebody else besides Avery killed this young lady is really reaching....with the evidence on the scene....we have heard ZERO reason why anybody else would want her dead.....she wasnt some high profile victim...and if it was somebody else, the precision of the frame job is historic....yeah the Dassey interrogation wasn’t the smoothest, but it still had some serios compelling information /details that paint the scenario that unfortunately was probably the death of this young lady....I know many people want that “aha” “gotcha” “we caught the corrupt police” moment...but I just don’t think this was one of them....if I heard some compelling eveidence of why somebody else wanted her dead and did such a historic performance of framing Avery I would love to listen....but I think people are really over thinking this one for some reason...I’m usually a benefit of the doubt kind of guy and look for any “other” possible explanation but this really seems like a slam dunk....
Franknbeans
Footballguy
What motive did Avery have?
mr. furley
Footballguy
her ex-boyfriend was super shaky
in most non-gang related or serial killer cases the perpetrator is someone close to the victim. a husband/wife, lover, family member.
that ex was nervy as hell and had a ton of holes in his memory.
do you REALLY think in your heart of hearts that he would have been able to pull of such an epic/perfect frame job.....?
mr. furley
Footballguy
why does this always have to come back to "epic" frame/conspiracy?
i'll say it for the.... 9th time.... the defense's job in any case is to show reasonable doubt. the prosecution's job is to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
there's sufficient reasonable doubt here to give me pause. there doesn't have to be any conspiracy.
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sorry...not trying to get sideways....just discussing the case....not really the ins and outs of reasonable doubt...I get all that...but I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind the reasonable doubt.....taking it a step further.....all of the evidence points towards Avery....what true "evidence" points toward it not being him and being somebody else?...looking for more than "we don't think the Dassey interrogation was done properly"....and I guess it seems like some people really do think he did it, but are willing let him walk because they don't think the prosecution did enough....although the jury of his peers that heard the case think they did....guess I'm not sure what the "reasonable doubters" need to hear, besides an outright confession from Avery....because the evidence is overwhelming at this point.....and to think Avery didn't do it also means that you think somebody else did a hell of a job framing him...
But there is proof of a conspiracy by the county. In the note to Sherry Culhan, the medical examiner or w/e:
"Put her in the garage"
THEN when she goes to test the bullet for DNA, the defence team was denied their request to be present.... Yet, she invites a bunch of students to make it a teaching experience (ahem, witnesses?) then taints the tests and uses all the tiny amount of DNA they have so her faulty results cannot be challenged.
There are a few red flags and procedural questonmarks w her.
parrot
Footballguy
It was "refuted" on the basis of a contaminated control sample, which was tainted with Culhane's own DNA IIRC. The presence of Halbach's DNA was never explained.DNA on the bullet was refuted as well.
parrot
Footballguy
That's not proof of anything other than LE having a theory of the crime and trying to see if the evidence matches. And it said "Try" to put her in the garage. Also, Fassbender wasn't with either county, he was Wisconsin DOJ.
Yeah it's unfortunate that the test wasn't perfect and called for a deviation, but it still doesn't explain the presence of Halbach's DNA.
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Bull Dozier
Footballguy
It's logical for the evidence collected to point to Avery when the law enforcement units investigating the crime doesn't spend any time following other avenues. They had a motive and were biased against Avery (if you don't believe this, there really is no point in discussing the case at all). Thus, any evidence that was available at the time of the prosecution that would have pointed to other suspects wasn't gathered, and is now stale/gone.
mr. furley
Footballguy
2 episodes in to this one
saw the overview on 20/20 (or one of those shows) a while back but they didn't cover it with as much detail, obviously.
there's a point in ep. 2 where Peterson mentions how much they're spending on lawyers and i thought "yeah, half that's for this documentary you commissioned to tell your story".
I get that previous history with Avery and the money and everything is a backdrop to the Halbach case. But not sure the use of the word "motive" is appropriate here. They had motive for what exactly? Motive to try and frame him for a murder he didn't commit? Or just motive to not really look for another killer because the evidence in their lap was pretty substantial? I think it is perfectly reasonable in this case that there wasn't much pursuit or investigation of another possible murderer because of the overwhelming amount of evidence found on the property and, at the time, Dassey's confession. It would have probably been considered a waste of time and resources. Because of the previous case against Avery, sure, I bet they were doing cartwheels on the inside when the guy they were going to owe a bunch of money too, ended up "getting in trouble" again. That would kind of be an understandable reaction. Not at the expense of a young lady, but still kind of like a "lucky break" that will help make the previous problem/case kind of go away. Kind of like if I break your window, but before I can pay to have it fixed, your house burns down. My problem of having to pay for your window, is no longer a problem for me. It may not have been a matter of being biased, but from their view, just pure luck that Avery screwed up and did this. I don't think not pursuing other potential killers is necessarily a sign of being biased, it is more of just going of the information/evidence at hand which understandably didn't really show the need for them to look elsewhere. I'm not sure in general or what the protocol is and what the answer is to "when is enough evidence enough, and we don't need to look elsewhere". But my guess is that in this case they probably hit that point pretty quickly when her car and her remains were found on the property of one of the last places she was known to be.....and they got the Dassey "confession". I think most would understand if investigating other avenues stopped at that point. I don't think there was an obligation to continue. IMO
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parrot
Footballguy
I assume by "motive" you're referring to the lawsuit against Manitowoc County. The lead investigators were from Calumet County and Wisconsin DOJ, and the prosecutor was from Calumet County. What was their "motive"?
This is a false narrative because even before they found anything they were targeting Avery and ignoring Hillegas. He was all over the investigation/property. And most likely destroyed evidence (voice mails?). IDK how he didn't get hammered on the stand more about Theresa's phone password or w/e.
mr. furley
Footballguy
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
and they were reminded by the judge,IIRC, about the pre-trial order that they couldn't make any accusatory directions towards another party other than Avery
Billy Bats
Footballguy
Avery’s lawsuit would’ve bankrupted Manitowac county. You don’t believe, even a 1% chance, that they wouldn’t work together to try and save that county from financial ruin?
parrot
Footballguy
"bankrupted" and "financial ruin" are speculation. Manitowoc County had insurance and the eventual amount probably wouldn't have been close to what Avery was asking for, which was double the award of any other case like this at the time.
Also I guess I didn't know that a "1% chance" of something represented a "motive" so conclusive that if you reject it you don't even warrant further discussion.
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see...not sure "targeting" is necessarily appropriate either.....one of her last known locations was the Avery farm....what do you expect?
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
That. Plus, and again my memory is faulty, I seem to remember the area police having long standing issues with the Avery's in general. I could be wrong on that.
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Wrigley
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
Wrigley
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I don't think money was the motivation, given none of it would have come from their pockets.
Their motivation was being sick of being in the middle of a media spotlight for their screw up. Imagine your department at work screwed up so bad that you have to hear about it on the media over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. And if Avery wins the lawsuit, it would only get worse. If Avery did murder her, it would be a HUGE blessing for them. Of course they wanted it to be him. That would be the best outcome for them by far.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
MAM was seriously slanted, if that's all you watched and seems you did, guilty is a no brainer. It's crazy that anyone formulates their opinion by just watching that.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
He was infatuated with her, she rebuffed his advances, he snapped, raped her and didn't want to go back to jail so he was getting rid of the evidence.
Dickies
Footballguy
You keep saying this, but it's not supposed to be on Avery or the defense to propose an alternate theory. I would agree with you that we've been given no reasons for anyone to want her dead, but I can definitely think of a reason the police would want to pin her death on Avery. Maybe he did it, but with the phone call to dispatch checking the plate number and the blatantly planted car key, it definitely casts a ton of doubt on the case.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
Putting every single person in the county offices at risk? No I don't believe that for a second.
There is zero evidence supporting this though. It may have been The Prize, Ken Kratz's theory, but there's nothing supporting it. Hillegas on the other hand...He was infatuated with her, she rebuffed his advances, he snapped, raped her and didn't want to go back to jail so he was getting rid of the evidence.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
So everyone involved in this "set up" would gladly put the rest of their lives at stake for a county to not bankrupt themselves?
They had no problem framing him the first time... and sitting on evidence when they knew it would release him... why not do it again. Just get it right this time.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
If memory serves me right, she had in her notes that he came to the door in a towel and flirted with her and she rebuffed him. I believe she also states she was hesitant to go out there becuase he freaked her out, but did anyway.
She told her co-worker that he answered the door once in a towel and she was like "ew". Zero evidence of any sexual advances or "obsession" with her. Dude had the internet, if he was obsessed with her in any way there would be mountains of evidence.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
Politician Spock
Footballguy
Are you talking about the rape he was framed for and was exonerated of? Or are you talking about the rape he was wrongly convicted of based on the coerced confession of a mentally impaired minor?
Wrigley
Footballguy
Why did Hiilegas want her dead?
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Why? My opinion on the case carries zero weight in the world. I'll never be on his jury. Whether I think he's innocent or not will do zero to get him out of jail, or get any corruption in the Manitowac police department cleaned up. There are only so many hours in the day, and this story isn't one I feel the need to make a deeper dive in to.Mr.Pack said:
I do remember reading a little about the story after I finished the doc to do a little fact checking. There wasn't anything I found on that brief effort to motivate me to look further. I felt satisfied with my conclusions, but as always, I'm not falling on the sword for an opinion formed from a doc.
@cockroach...still waiting on a response to this one too....your comment "Hillegas on the other hand"....seems to indicate you think he had motive and wanted her dead....I missed that part so was wondering if you could expand....assuming it has to be more than "he seemed a little sketchy"....
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
No way to have a specific answer for that, as he wasn't investigated as a prime suspect, but it's not outside the realm of possibility to think that a scorned ex-lover could have vengeance on his mind. There were definitely some interesting theories regarding this guy, I think maybe on Reddit in the MAM threads there.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
They had broken up and gotten back together numerous times over the past five years. At the time of her murder, they were broken up again, and their relationship was described as "abusive".
That alone is not enough to suspect him of the murder (although it is enough to consider him a potential suspect). But with additional evidence on top of their on and off again abusive relationship, he should have been seriously investigated. There was sufficient evidence, but again, as has been said time and time and time again in this thread, the police were so focused on wanting it to be Avery, they ignored the evidence pointing to Hillegas.
Evidence that should have led to an investigation of Hillegas:
1) He lied to police. Halbach's car had a broken blinker light. Hillegas told police that it was damaged months before her disappearance and that Halbach had filed an insurance claim, but didn't use the money to repair the blinker. The insurance company however says no such claim was ever made. What was Hillegas trying to hide by lying about the broken blinker?
2) Dr. Larry Blum, a pathologist from Rockford, Ill., reviewed television news footage showing Hillegas with several scratches to his hands as he was organizing volunteer search efforts. "It is my opinion, to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty in the field of forensic pathology, that Mr. Hillegas' right hand ... appears discolored ... the abrasions I observed on the back of Mr. Hillegas' left hand are consistent with scratches inflicted by fingernails."
3) During the searches, volunteers were used. Hillegas used a fake name to be part of the volunteer search teams, using at least once the name Mr. Kilgus. On Nov 7th, 2005 he accessed the Avery property without signing in at the command post. He was seen on the property, but with no records of his arrival, no one knows how long he was there or what he had brought with him. It was after this date that much of the evidence (bones, etc..) were found, despite the search efforts being much more vigorous Nov 5th and 6th that turned up nothing.
4) Pam Sturm, the person who found the Rav4, conferred with Hillegas and Scott Bloedorn, a close friend of Hillegas, who lived with Halbach at the time of her disappearance, just hours before locating the vehicle.
5) He has no alibi for his activities from Oct 31st to Nov 4th.
Again, this is in no way suggesting that he is a MORE LIKELY suspect than Avery. It is saying the police failed to give Hilegas the attention he deserved as a suspect.
I don't think it could ever be proven that Avery is innocent, but clearly given the cluster#### the police turned the investigation into due to the bias they had against him, he's not guilty beyond reasonable doubt. He should be free, and that may mean a killer gets to go free. But beyond reasonable doubt is the bar we've set before we lock people up for murder.
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mr. furley
Footballguy
anyone else think that there's no way a lover/partner/wife/husband would ever murder someone they were once in a relationship with??!??
i mean seriously?!? who does that??! lmao haHA
i mean seriously?!? who does that??! lmao haHA
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