Malaysian plane shot down in Ukraine. (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

Does it matter who did the shooting, if the shoot down was a mistake? From reading the transcripts of the intercepted communications, it sounds like it was a mistake.

Or do you think they targeted a civilian aircraft?

If the Russians gave them the equipment then they bear some responsibility.

I absolutely agree. But we already know the separatists didn't just grab one and point it at the sky.

ETA: Do you think the targeting of a civilian aircraft was intentional?

If you leave a loaded gun out, and your kid borrows your gun, takes it outside and shoots it in the air, and the bullet lands and kills somebody, do you bear any responsibility?

 

[Christo]

Does it matter who did the shooting, if the shoot down was a mistake? From reading the transcripts of the intercepted communications, it sounds like it was a mistake.

Or do you think they targeted a civilian aircraft?

If the Russians gave them the equipment then they bear some responsibility.

I absolutely agree. But we already know the separatists didn't just grab one and point it at the sky.

ETA: Do you think the targeting of a civilian aircraft was intentional?

If your kid steals your gun, takes it outside and shoots it in the air, and the bullet lands and kills somebody, do you bear any responsibility?

Are you suggesting they stole weapons from the Russians?

 

[timschochet]

Does it matter who did the shooting, if the shoot down was a mistake? From reading the transcripts of the intercepted communications, it sounds like it was a mistake.

Or do you think they targeted a civilian aircraft?

If the Russians gave them the equipment then they bear some responsibility.

I absolutely agree. But we already know the separatists didn't just grab one and point it at the sky.

ETA: Do you think the targeting of a civilian aircraft was intentional?

If your kid steals your gun, takes it outside and shoots it in the air, and the bullet lands and kills somebody, do you bear any responsibility?

Are you suggesting they stole weapons from the Russians?

No. You caught me before I edited that.

 

[Christo]

Does it matter who did the shooting, if the shoot down was a mistake? From reading the transcripts of the intercepted communications, it sounds like it was a mistake.

Or do you think they targeted a civilian aircraft?

If the Russians gave them the equipment then they bear some responsibility.

I absolutely agree. But we already know the separatists didn't just grab one and point it at the sky.

ETA: Do you think the targeting of a civilian aircraft was intentional?

If you leave a loaded gun out, and your kid borrows your gun, takes it outside and shoots it in the air, and the bullet lands and kills somebody, do you bear any responsibility?

Are you suggesting the Russians left an AA missile tank lying around and the separatists just borrowed it?

 

[Christo]

Why don't you just say it like we know it happened? Dad gave son a gun and told him to go shoot the guy who is bullying him and he shot the mother and child living on the other side of the street because he's blind and just pointed it at the first thing he heard.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

This thread was going well, now it's not.

 

[Politician Spock]

Does it matter who did the shooting, if the shoot down was a mistake? From reading the transcripts of the intercepted communications, it sounds like it was a mistake.

Or do you think they targeted a civilian aircraft?

If the Russians gave them the equipment then they bear some responsibility.

I absolutely agree. But we already know the separatists didn't just grab one and point it at the sky.

ETA: Do you think the targeting of a civilian aircraft was intentional?

If you leave a loaded gun out, and your kid borrows your gun, takes it outside and shoots it in the air, and the bullet lands and kills somebody, do you bear any responsibility?

Are you suggesting the Russians left an AA missile tank lying around and the separatists just borrowed it?

There was a report in June that a BUK was seized.

 

[Christo]

Does it matter who did the shooting, if the shoot down was a mistake? From reading the transcripts of the intercepted communications, it sounds like it was a mistake.

Or do you think they targeted a civilian aircraft?

If the Russians gave them the equipment then they bear some responsibility.

I absolutely agree. But we already know the separatists didn't just grab one and point it at the sky.

ETA: Do you think the targeting of a civilian aircraft was intentional?

If you leave a loaded gun out, and your kid borrows your gun, takes it outside and shoots it in the air, and the bullet lands and kills somebody, do you bear any responsibility?

Are you suggesting the Russians left an AA missile tank lying around and the separatists just borrowed it?

There was a report in June that a BUK was seized.

And I have this bridge for sale. It's going cheap.

 

[Christo]

My point was there have been a lot of questions about who is responsible. We know the Russians are a least partially responsible. Either via training, providing the personnel, or both, Why is that even a question? And does the fact that it was a mistaken shoot down change potential consequences?

Why would the fact that the "son" shot the wrong person change the "dad's" degree of responsibility?

 

[Politician Spock]

My point was there have been a lot of questions about who is responsible. We know the Russians are a least partially responsible. Either via training, providing the personnel, or both, Why is that even a question? And does the fact that it was a mistaken shoot down change potential consequences?

Why would the fact that the "son" shot the wrong person change the "dad's" degree of responsibility?

It doesn't.

Unfortunately the judge in this case has numerous sons who have committed the same mistake.

 

[MaxThreshold]

My point was there have been a lot of questions about who is responsible. We know the Russians are a least partially responsible. Either via training, providing the personnel, or both, Why is that even a question? And does the fact that it was a mistaken shoot down change potential consequences?

I don't see how this is anyone else's fault besides Russia and the pro-Russian terrorists. Seriously, do the pro-Russian terrorists even have an air force (or any flying machines for that matter) that the Ukrainian government would need to employ ground to air missiles?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Good job sorting all of this out, fellas.

 

[Quez]

I found this on YouTube,

BUSTED! Ukraine Caught Trying to 'Frame Russia' f…: http://youtu.be/28MrASx-RiM

Skip to about 1:20 and they say those videos of the people taking responsibility for the attack that appeared hours after plane was downed, was actually date time stamped from before the event.

I'm not sure if this "evidence" is legit or not, but the YouTube release just seemed fishy.

 

[Politician Spock]

I found this on YouTube,

BUSTED! Ukraine Caught Trying to 'Frame Russia' f…: http://youtu.be/28MrASx-RiM

Skip to about 1:20 and they say those videos of the people taking responsibility for the attack that appeared hours after plane was downed, was actually date time stamped from before the event.

I'm not sure if this "evidence" is legit or not, but the YouTube release just seemed fishy.

 

[KCitons]

This thread flight was going well, now it's not.

Malaysian Air's new slogan?

 

[Norman Paperman]

Reuters reporting that the Russian Defense Ministry did not detect any missle launches in rebel area.

Putin doubling down IMO

 

[jonessed]

Reuters reporting that the Russian Defense Ministry did not detect any missle launches in rebel area.

Putin doubling down IMO

The EU really needs to put pressure on Russia's energy sector and they need help to do it. I hope we are up to the task.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Reuters reporting that the Russian Defense Ministry did not detect any missle launches in rebel area.

Putin doubling down IMO

Absolutely.

Completely against reason and completely to be expected.

Next up: refusal to turn over the black boxes and the missile launcher.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I found this on YouTube,

BUSTED! Ukraine Caught Trying to 'Frame Russia' f…: http://youtu.be/28MrASx-RiM

Skip to about 1:20 and they say those videos of the people taking responsibility for the attack that appeared hours after plane was downed, was actually date time stamped from before the event.

I'm not sure if this "evidence" is legit or not, but the YouTube release just seemed fishy.

It's not.

 

[timschochet]

Reuters reporting that the Russian Defense Ministry did not detect any missle launches in rebel area.

Putin doubling down IMO

The EU really needs to put pressure on Russia's energy sector and they need help to do it. I hope we are up to the task.

You keep repeating this. Even if we wanted to increase our natural gas exports, it would take several years to do so. The transport costs would prevent us from matching Russia's prices. And there are big environmental concerns. Not to mention that it still may not be the best geopolitical policy to attempt to hurt Russia's economy.

 

[jonessed]

Reuters reporting that the Russian Defense Ministry did not detect any missle launches in rebel area.

Putin doubling down IMO

The EU really needs to put pressure on Russia's energy sector and they need help to do it. I hope we are up to the task.

You keep repeating this. Even if we wanted to increase our natural gas exports, it would take several years to do so. The transport costs would prevent us from matching Russia's prices. And there are big environmental concerns. Not to mention that it still may not be the best geopolitical policy to attempt to hurt Russia's economy.

I didn't say it would be easy.We simply disagree that the status quo will see Russia come around. I believe we need to prepare for the possibility that Putin will continue to take Russia backwards.

 

[Quez]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

 

[Spanky267]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

There is nothing to the contrary at this point.

J/K

 

[Ditka Butkus]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

 

[Koya]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

 

[HellToupee]

This thread was going well, now it's not.

The same pissclams always doing their thing

 

[shader]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

Interesting stuff.

Also, China has apparently blasted the West for jumping the gun on blaming Russia/Putin

http://time.com/3011538/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-china-response-mh17-russia/

 

[Ditka Butkus]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

 

[Politician Spock]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

 

[Politician Spock]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

You mean like the NSA director lying to congress? Yeah, I agree. It's ridiculous. Every government is covering up their skeletons in their closets.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[7] George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."[25][26] Bush used the phrase frequently[27] during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shootdown[28] and as early as January 1988.[29][30] Half the legal wrangling as well as the settlement occurred under Clinton, who also refused to apologize for the incident.

 

[Quez]

You can't blame Russia for some idiots using Russian weapons. Any media outlet quickly jumping to conclusions is likely propagandizing at this point.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[7] George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."[25][26] Bush used the phrase frequently[27] during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shootdown[28] and as early as January 1988.[29][30] Half the legal wrangling as well as the settlement occurred under Clinton, who also refused to apologize for the incident.

President Reagan personally said something to the effect of "It's a tragedy" and never denied responsibility.

I will add that the Vincennes was under attack by Iranian Navy at the time. There are other differences, like it was not in a regular air route, all civilian craft had been warned off, etc.

Nobody thinks this was done on purpose either. Putin does not have to apologize or grovel for Russia, he merely has to state regret and concede it is a tragedy, fully admit their full involvement, turn over the black boxes and permit full international inspection.

I will also point out that the USA only has one lost citizen here - the Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Malaysians and Phillipinos are all entitled to full exposure on this. And saying we are compromised doesn't mean that we do not get to demand an investigation and explanation here anyway, but these other aggrieved countries are certainly not so compromised.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You can't blame Russia for some idiots using Russian weapons. Any media outlet quickly jumping to conclusions is likely propagandizing at this point.

Wait a second. The separatists have a Russian military intelligence guy as a commander. And the Russians may have given them the SAM to begin with. The separatists may not have even been operating the SAM site, and even if they were they may have been supervised or trained by Russians on site. The thing to do here is have an investigation. But so far it certainly looks like heavy Russian involvement.

 

[fantasycurse42]

This thread was going well, now it's not.

It was?

 

[timschochet]

You can't blame Russia for some idiots using Russian weapons. Any media outlet quickly jumping to conclusions is likely propagandizing at this point.

Say what? They gave them the ####### weapons!

 

[B-Deep]

I am not sure Putin HAS to do anything

He waltzed into Crimea and no one did anything. Do we think somehow there's some magic switch to make him bend to our will now? I imagine he denies obfuscates and dares the world to stop him. The world cannot really

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I am not sure Putin HAS to do anything

He waltzed into Crimea and no one did anything. Do we think somehow there's some magic switch to make him bend to our will now? I imagine he denies obfuscates and dares the world to stop him. The world cannot really

I think he does all this for domestic consumption within Russia. The only hope is if the people stop believing the bs.

 

[Politician Spock]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.%5B7%5D George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."%5B25%5D%5B26%5D Bush used the phrase frequently%5B27%5D during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shootdown%5B28%5D and as early as January 1988.%5B29%5D%5B30%5D Half the legal wrangling as well as the settlement occurred under Clinton, who also refused to apologize for the incident.

President Reagan personally said something to the effect of "It's a tragedy" and never denied responsibility.

I will add that the Vincennes was under attack by Iranian Navy at the time. There are other differences, like it was not in a regular air route, all civilian craft had been warned off, etc.

Nobody thinks this was done on purpose either. Putin does not have to apologize or grovel for Russia, he merely has to state regret and concede it is a tragedy, fully admit their full involvement, turn over the black boxes and permit full international inspection.

I will also point out that the USA only has one lost citizen here - the Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Malaysians and Phillipinos are all entitled to full exposure on this. And saying we are compromised doesn't mean that we do not get to demand an investigation and explanation here anyway, but these other aggrieved countries are certainly not so compromised.

I fully support the Dutch, Belgian, et al... screaming "MURDERERS!" at Russia for this.

However, the US saying it is like the mafia saying it. There's no moral pedastal for the US to stand on here. Most Americans don't want to believe that about their country though. They believe we're the world's Care Bears.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.%5B7%5D George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."%5B25%5D%5B26%5D Bush used the phrase frequently%5B27%5D during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shootdown%5B28%5D and as early as January 1988.%5B29%5D%5B30%5D Half the legal wrangling as well as the settlement occurred under Clinton, who also refused to apologize for the incident.

President Reagan personally said something to the effect of "It's a tragedy" and never denied responsibility.

I will add that the Vincennes was under attack by Iranian Navy at the time. There are other differences, like it was not in a regular air route, all civilian craft had been warned off, etc.

Nobody thinks this was done on purpose either. Putin does not have to apologize or grovel for Russia, he merely has to state regret and concede it is a tragedy, fully admit their full involvement, turn over the black boxes and permit full international inspection.

I will also point out that the USA only has one lost citizen here - the Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Malaysians and Phillipinos are all entitled to full exposure on this. And saying we are compromised doesn't mean that we do not get to demand an investigation and explanation here anyway, but these other aggrieved countries are certainly not so compromised.

I fully support the Dutch, Belgian, et al... screaming "MURDERERS!" at Russia for this.

However, the US saying it is like the mafia saying it. There's no moral pedastal for the US to stand on here. Most Americans don't want to believe that about their country though. They believe we're the world's Care Bears.

Fine. Is it still so wrong to ask for an investigation for the truth to come out? Who what where when why how? Everyone including the US has a right to that here, no?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I am not sure Putin HAS to do anything

He waltzed into Crimea and no one did anything. Do we think somehow there's some magic switch to make him bend to our will now? I imagine he denies obfuscates and dares the world to stop him. The world cannot really

Kind of like the US when we invaded Iraq.....I think Putin disagreed with our invasion but we went ahead with it anyway.

 

[Politician Spock]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.%5B7%5D George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."%5B25%5D%5B26%5D Bush used the phrase frequently%5B27%5D during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shootdown%5B28%5D and as early as January 1988.%5B29%5D%5B30%5D Half the legal wrangling as well as the settlement occurred under Clinton, who also refused to apologize for the incident.

President Reagan personally said something to the effect of "It's a tragedy" and never denied responsibility.

I will add that the Vincennes was under attack by Iranian Navy at the time. There are other differences, like it was not in a regular air route, all civilian craft had been warned off, etc.

Nobody thinks this was done on purpose either. Putin does not have to apologize or grovel for Russia, he merely has to state regret and concede it is a tragedy, fully admit their full involvement, turn over the black boxes and permit full international inspection.

I will also point out that the USA only has one lost citizen here - the Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Malaysians and Phillipinos are all entitled to full exposure on this. And saying we are compromised doesn't mean that we do not get to demand an investigation and explanation here anyway, but these other aggrieved countries are certainly not so compromised.

I fully support the Dutch, Belgian, et al... screaming "MURDERERS!" at Russia for this.

However, the US saying it is like the mafia saying it. There's no moral pedastal for the US to stand on here. Most Americans don't want to believe that about their country though. They believe we're the world's Care Bears.

Fine. Is it still so wrong to ask for an investigation for the truth to come out? Who what where when why how? Everyone including the US has a right to that here, no?

I never said it was wrong to ask.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.%5B7%5D George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."%5B25%5D%5B26%5D Bush used the phrase frequently%5B27%5D during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shootdown%5B28%5D and as early as January 1988.%5B29%5D%5B30%5D Half the legal wrangling as well as the settlement occurred under Clinton, who also refused to apologize for the incident.

President Reagan personally said something to the effect of "It's a tragedy" and never denied responsibility.

I will add that the Vincennes was under attack by Iranian Navy at the time. There are other differences, like it was not in a regular air route, all civilian craft had been warned off, etc.

Nobody thinks this was done on purpose either. Putin does not have to apologize or grovel for Russia, he merely has to state regret and concede it is a tragedy, fully admit their full involvement, turn over the black boxes and permit full international inspection.

I will also point out that the USA only has one lost citizen here - the Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Malaysians and Phillipinos are all entitled to full exposure on this. And saying we are compromised doesn't mean that we do not get to demand an investigation and explanation here anyway, but these other aggrieved countries are certainly not so compromised.

I fully support the Dutch, Belgian, et al... screaming "MURDERERS!" at Russia for this.

However, the US saying it is like the mafia saying it. There's no moral pedastal for the US to stand on here. Most Americans don't want to believe that about their country though. They believe we're the world's Care Bears.

Fine. Is it still so wrong to ask for an investigation for the truth to come out? Who what where when why how? Everyone including the US has a right to that here, no?

Who: Pro Russian separatists What: downed passenger jet..Where: eastern Ukraine When: July 17th 2014 How: Anti-Aircraft missile.

 

[timschochet]

Has Garry Kasparov spoken out?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.%5B7%5D George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."%5B25%5D%5B26%5D Bush used the phrase frequently%5B27%5D during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shootdown%5B28%5D and as early as January 1988.%5B29%5D%5B30%5D Half the legal wrangling as well as the settlement occurred under Clinton, who also refused to apologize for the incident.

President Reagan personally said something to the effect of "It's a tragedy" and never denied responsibility.

I will add that the Vincennes was under attack by Iranian Navy at the time. There are other differences, like it was not in a regular air route, all civilian craft had been warned off, etc.

Nobody thinks this was done on purpose either. Putin does not have to apologize or grovel for Russia, he merely has to state regret and concede it is a tragedy, fully admit their full involvement, turn over the black boxes and permit full international inspection.

I will also point out that the USA only has one lost citizen here - the Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Malaysians and Phillipinos are all entitled to full exposure on this. And saying we are compromised doesn't mean that we do not get to demand an investigation and explanation here anyway, but these other aggrieved countries are certainly not so compromised.

I fully support the Dutch, Belgian, et al... screaming "MURDERERS!" at Russia for this.

However, the US saying it is like the mafia saying it. There's no moral pedastal for the US to stand on here. Most Americans don't want to believe that about their country though. They believe we're the world's Care Bears.

Fine. Is it still so wrong to ask for an investigation for the truth to come out? Who what where when why how? Everyone including the US has a right to that here, no?

Who: Pro Russian separatists What: downed passenger jet..Where: eastern Ukraine When: July 17th 2014 How: Anti-Aircraft missile.

That is not the whole story. We're talking Russian involvement here.

Who & How: which site, who was there, who operated it, who was commanding it, who gives the orders, who trained them?

Where: where did the SAM launcher come from?

I think the points about past US actions are well placed, it's just we cannot even get to that until we establish whether the Russians had a role and what it was in the first place.

If we could get to the point where the perpetrators said 'it was accident, we regret it, it's a tragedy, let's try to help the families and victims' then we would be able to move on.

 

[Koya]

The media is making it sound like Putin personally shot down the plane.

I agree with this....Sure he is going to support pro -Russia rebels by supplying arms.....I'm sure he didn't say, here is this anti-aircraft missile, go shoot down a passenger jet........Also I'd like to add that we the great forward thinking US of A supplied the Mujahedeen with weapons for their fight against the Soviets back in the 80's only to have them turned on our own Military during the Afghanistan war. . Lets not forget Iran Air Flight 655 as well. Maybe we should turn down the rhetoric a little.

To be fair, Russia's active involvement with the rebels with the clear purpose of invading the Ukraine is not exactly analogous to our involvement in Afghanistan, making it more difficult for our key enemy by a little more arms length than Russia's direct hand in Ukrainian affairs today.

My point is we are guilty of supplying arms to people who we think can help our cause and those same arms end up killing innocent people as well.

Exactly. And we did far more to turn a foreign country upside down with what we did in Iraq than anything Russia has done in Ukraine. Earlier this year US drones accidentally hit a wedding in Yemen killing 12 and injuring 14. That's not us supplying rebels who pulled the trigger. That is US pulling the trigger.

There are a lot of ways to delineate this - but one way up front is to point out that with the Iran airliner and in Yemen the US was completely up front about it's involvement. We did not go run off with evidence and deny we were ever there. We paid reparations to Iranian families, etc.

A major problem here is Russia is denying even being there. It's ridiculous.

The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.%5B7%5D George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."%5B25%5D%5B26%5D Bush used the phrase frequently%5B27%5D during the 1988 campaign and promised to "never apologize for the United States" months prior to the July 1988 shootdown%5B28%5D and as early as January 1988.%5B29%5D%5B30%5D Half the legal wrangling as well as the settlement occurred under Clinton, who also refused to apologize for the incident.

President Reagan personally said something to the effect of "It's a tragedy" and never denied responsibility.

I will add that the Vincennes was under attack by Iranian Navy at the time. There are other differences, like it was not in a regular air route, all civilian craft had been warned off, etc.

Nobody thinks this was done on purpose either. Putin does not have to apologize or grovel for Russia, he merely has to state regret and concede it is a tragedy, fully admit their full involvement, turn over the black boxes and permit full international inspection.

I will also point out that the USA only has one lost citizen here - the Dutch, Belgians, Germans, Malaysians and Phillipinos are all entitled to full exposure on this. And saying we are compromised doesn't mean that we do not get to demand an investigation and explanation here anyway, but these other aggrieved countries are certainly not so compromised.

I fully support the Dutch, Belgian, et al... screaming "MURDERERS!" at Russia for this.

However, the US saying it is like the mafia saying it. There's no moral pedastal for the US to stand on here. Most Americans don't want to believe that about their country though. They believe we're the world's Care Bears.

This is a perfectly valid point. Look, there are a lot of grey areas in the dark side of retaining one's supremacy as super power. While I don't believe that it's the same LEVEL of responsible to train and give weapons as compared to likely having one of your commanders and other forces actually launch one to a plane of innocents, we have no place to act like the U.S. is a bunch of angels when it comes to this stuff.

 

[Politician Spock]

Who: Pro Russian separatists What: downed passenger jet..Where: eastern Ukraine When: July 17th 2014 How: Anti-Aircraft missile.

That is not the whole story. We're talking Russian involvement here.

Who & How: which site, who was there, who operated it, who was commanding it, who gives the orders, who trained them?

Where: where did the SAM launcher come from?

I think the points about past US actions are well placed, it's just we cannot even get to that until we establish whether the Russians had a role and what it was in the first place.

If we could get to the point where the perpetrators said 'it was accident, we regret it, it's a tragedy, let's try to help the families and victims' then we would be able to move on.

What if it was no accident?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Canada acts:

Ottawa (AFP) - Canada's prime minister on Monday announced further economic sanctions against Russian entities and individuals, calling the downing of flight MH17 a "direct product of Russia's military aggression and illegal occupation" of Ukraine.

... "The outrageous and criminal act of shooting down a civilian airliner last week is a direct product of Russia's military aggression and illegal occupation of Ukraine, and demonstrates the need for the international community to continue applying pressure on the Putin regime," Harper said in a statement.

"It is clear that the Putin regime's continuing provocative military action against Ukraine, its illegal occupation of the Crimean peninsula, and its failure to end its support to armed separatist groups in eastern Ukraine constitute a threat to international peace and security."

The sanctions "against a broad range of entities related to various Russian sectors" follow consultations and coordination with Canada's allies, Harper added. ...

http://news.yahoo.com/canada-impose-further-russia-sanctions-over-ukraine-165342077.html?.tsrc=_messenger%2F

Canada like the USA lost one citizen.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Who: Pro Russian separatists What: downed passenger jet..Where: eastern Ukraine When: July 17th 2014 How: Anti-Aircraft missile.

That is not the whole story. We're talking Russian involvement here.

Who & How: which site, who was there, who operated it, who was commanding it, who gives the orders, who trained them?

Where: where did the SAM launcher come from?

I think the points about past US actions are well placed, it's just we cannot even get to that until we establish whether the Russians had a role and what it was in the first place.

If we could get to the point where the perpetrators said 'it was accident, we regret it, it's a tragedy, let's try to help the families and victims' then we would be able to move on.

What if it was no accident?

I seriously doubt that. - If it was purposeful I think we would be looking beyond the KAL / Iranian situations and would be looking at something more like Lockerbie, but I don't think that's the case here.