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U.S. Is Seen as Laggard as Russia Asserts Itself in Warming Arctic (1 Viewer)

Chadstroma

Footballguy
U.S. Is Seen as Laggard as Russia Asserts Itself in Warming Arctic

By STEVEN LEE MYERS

AUG. 29, 2015

ABOARD COAST GUARD CUTTER ALEX HALEY, in the Chukchi Sea — With warming seas creating new opportunities at the top of the world, nations are scrambling over the Arctic — its territorial waters, transit routes and especially, its natural resources — in a rivalry some already call a new Cold War.

When President Obama travels to Alaska on Monday, becoming the first president to venture above the Arctic Circle while in office, he hopes to focus attention on the effects of climate change on the Arctic. Some lawmakers in Congress, analysts, and even some government officials say the United States is lagging behind other nations, chief among them Russia, in preparing for the new environmental, economic and geopolitical realities facing the region.

“We have been for some time clamoring about our nation’s lack of capacity to sustain any meaningful presence in the Arctic,” said Adm. Paul F. Zukunft, the Coast Guard’s commandant.

Aboard the Alex Haley, the increased activity in the Arctic was obvious in the deep blue waters of the Chukchi Sea. As it patrolled one day this month, vessels began to appear one after another on radar as this ship cleared the western edge of Alaska and cruised north of the Arctic Circle.

There were three tugs hauling giant barges to ExxonMobil’s onshore natural gas project east of Prudhoe Bay. To the east, a flotilla of ships and rigs lingered at the spot where Royal Dutch Shell began drilling for oil this month. Not far away, across America’s maritime border, convoys of container ships and military vessels were traversing the route that Russia dreams of turning into a new Suez Canal.

The cutter, a former Navy salvage vessel built nearly five decades ago, has amounted to the government’s only asset anywhere nearby to respond to an accident, oil spill or incursion into America’s territory or exclusive economic zone in the Arctic.

To deal with the growing numbers of vessels sluicing north through the Bering Strait, the Coast Guard has had to divert ships like the Alex Haley from other core missions, like policing American fisheries and interdicting drugs. The service’s fleet is aging, especially the nation’s only two icebreakers. (The United States Navy rarely operates in the Arctic.) Underwater charting is paltry, while telecommunications remain sparse above the highest latitudes. Alaska’s far north lacks deepwater port facilities to support increased maritime activity.

All these shortcomings require investments that political gridlock, budget constraints and bureaucracy have held up for years.

Russia, by contrast, is building 10 new search-and-rescue stations, strung like a necklace of pearls at ports along half of the Arctic shoreline. More provocatively, it has also significantly increased its military presence, reopening bases abandoned after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Russia is far from the only rival — or potential one — in the Arctic. China, South Korea and Singapore have increasingly explored the possibility that commercial cargo could be shipped to European markets across waters — outside Russia’s control — that scientists predict could, by 2030, be ice-free for much of the summer.

In 2012, with great fanfare, China sent a refurbished icebreaker, the Xuelong, or Snow Dragon, across one such route. Signaling its ambitions to be a “polar expedition power,” China is now building a second icebreaker, giving it an icebreaking fleet equal to America’s. Russia, by far the largest Arctic nation, has 41 in all.

“The United States really isn’t even in this game,” Robert J. Papp Jr., a retired admiral and former commandant of the Coast Guard, said at a conference in Washington this year.

Mr. Papp, now the State Department’s senior envoy on Arctic issues, lamented the lack of urgency in Washington, contrasting it with the challenges of the Cold War, when the United States and the Soviet Union confronted each other in the Arctic and beyond. “When Russia put Sputnik in outer space, did we sit with our hands in pocket with great fascination and say, ‘Good for Mother Russia’?”

Polar Opposites

“The Arctic is one of our planet’s last great frontiers,” Mr. Obama declared when he introduced a national strategy for the region in May 2013. The strategy outlined the challenges and opportunities created by diminishing sea ice — from the harsh effects on wildlife and native residents to the accessibility of oil, gas and mineral deposits, estimated by the United States Geological Survey to include 13 percent of the world’s undiscovered oil and 30 percent of its natural gas.

In January, the president created an Arctic Executive Steering Committee, led by the director of the White House’s Office of Science and Technology, John P. Holdren, which is trying to prioritize the demands for ships, equipment and personnel at a time of constrained budgets.

Dr. Holdren said in an interview that administration officials were trying “to get our arms around matching the resources and the commitment we can bring to bear with the magnitude of the opportunities and the challenges” in the Arctic.

What kind of frontier the Arctic will be — a ecological preserve or an economic engine, an area of international cooperation or confrontation — is now the question at the center of the unfolding geopolitical competition. An increasing divergence over the answer has deeply divided the United States and its allies on one side and Russia on the other.

Since returning to the Kremlin for a third term in 2012, President Vladimir V. Putin has sought to restore Russia’s pre-eminence in its northern reaches — economically and militarily — with zeal that a new report by the Center for Strategic and International Studies compared to the Soviet Union’s efforts to establish a “Red Arctic” in the 1930s. The report’s title echoed the rising tensions caused by Russia’s actions in the Arctic: “The New Ice Curtain.”

Decades of cooperation in the Arctic Council, which includes Russia, the United States and six other Arctic states, all but ended with Moscow’s annexation of Crimea in 2014 and the continuing war in eastern Ukraine. In March, Russia conducted an unannounced military exercise that was one of the largest ever in the far north. It involved 45,000 troops, as well as dozens of ships and submarines, including those in its strategic nuclear arsenal, from the Northern Fleet, based in Murmansk.

The first of two new army brigades — each expected to grow to more than 3,600 soldiers — deployed to a military base only 30 miles from the Finnish border. The other will be deployed on the Yamal Peninsula, where many of Russia’s new investments in energy resources on shore are. Mr. Putin has pursued the buildup as if a 2013 protest by Greenpeace International at the site of Russia’s first offshore oil platform above the Arctic Circle was the vanguard of a more ominous invader.
“Oil and gas production facilities, loading terminals and pipelines should be reliably protected from terrorists and other potential threats,” Mr. Putin said when detailing the military buildup last year. “Nothing can be treated as trivial here.”

In Washington and other NATO capitals, Russia’s military moves are seen as provocative — and potentially destabilizing.

In the wake of the conflict in Ukraine, Russia has intensified air patrols probing NATO’s borders, including in the Arctic. In February, Norwegian fighter jets intercepted six Russian aircraft off Norway’s northern tip. Similar Russian flights occurred last year off Alaska and in the Beaufort Sea, prompting American and Canadian jets to intercept them. Russia’s naval forces have also increased patrols, venturing farther into Arctic waters. Of particular concern, officials said, has been Russia’s deployment of air defenses in the far north, including surface-to-air missiles whose main purpose is to counter aerial incursions that only the United States or NATO members could conceivably carry out in the Arctic.

“We see the Arctic as a global commons,” a senior Obama administration official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss matters of national security. “It’s not apparent the Russians see it the same way we do.”

Russia has also sought to assert its sovereignty in the Arctic through diplomacy. This month, Russia resubmitted a claim to the United Nations to a vast area of the Arctic Ocean — 463,000 square miles, about the size of South Africa — based on the geological extension of its continental shelf.

The commission that reviews claims under the Convention on the Law of the Sea rejected a similar one filed in 2001, citing insufficient scientific evidence. But Russia, along with Canada and Denmark (through its administration of Greenland), have pressed ahead with competing stakes. Russia signaled its ambitions — symbolically at least — as early as 2007 when it sent two submersibles 14,000 feet down to seabed beneath the North Pole and planted a titanium Russian flag.

Although the commission might not rule for years, Russia’s move underscored the priority the Kremlin has given to expanding its sovereignty. The United States, by contrast, has not even ratified the law of the sea treaty, leaving it on the sidelines of territorial jockeying.

“Nobody cared too much about these sectors,” said Andrei A. Smirnov, deputy director for operations at Atomflot, which operates Russia’s fleet of six nuclear-powered icebreakers, “but when it turned out that 40 percent of confirmed oil and gas deposits were there, everybody became interested in who owns what.”

Some have questioned whether Russia, whose economy is sinking under the weight of sanctions and the falling price of oil, can sustain its efforts in the Arctic.

“It is rather difficult to find rationale for this very pronounced priority in the allocation of increasingly scarce resources,” said Pavel K. Baev of Peace Research Institute Oslo, in Norway. He added that Russian claims that it was protecting its economic interests from NATO were “entirely fictitious.”

“The only challenge to Russian exploitation of the Arctic came from Greenpeace,” he said.

American commanders are watching warily. The United States and its NATO allies still have significant military forces — including missile defenses and plenty of air power — in the Arctic, but the Army is considering reducing its two brigades in Alaska. The Navy, which has no ice-capable warships, acknowledged in a report last year that it had little experience operating in the Arctic Ocean, notwithstanding decades of submarine operations during the Cold War. While it saw little need for new assets immediately, it predicted that could change

Adm. William E. Gortney, head of the Pentagon’s Northern Command and North American Aerospace Defense Command, said that Russia was increasing its capabilities after years of neglect but did not represent a meaningful threat, yet. “We’re seeing activity in the Arctic, but it hasn’t manifested in significant change at this point,” he said in a recent interview.

Despite concerns over the military buildup, others said that some of Russia’s moves were benign efforts to ensure the safety of ships on its Northern Sea Route, which could slash the time it takes to ship goods from Asia to Europe. Russia had pledged to take those steps as an Arctic Council member.

“Some of the things I see them doing — in terms of building up bases, telecommunications, search and rescue capabilities — are things I wish the United States was doing as well,” said Mr. Papp, the State Department envoy.

Less Ice, More Traffic

Aboard the Alex Haley, the crew made contact with each of the ships it encountered plowing the waters, recording details of the owners, courses and the number of crew members who might need to be plucked from the sea in case of disaster.

The cutter’s captain, Cmdr. Seth J. Denning, was a young ensign when he first crossed the Arctic Circle just north of the Bering Strait 19 years ago. “I never really realized that the Arctic was going to open up as much as it has — enough to allow this much activity,” he said. “I think it surprised many people.”

What had been a brief excursion for Ensign Denning when the Arctic was choked with ice has now become routine.

The Alex Haley, named after the author of “Roots” who was a 20-year Coast Guard veteran, is one of five ships that the Coast Guard is deploying to the Arctic from June to October. It will be replaced by an advanced cutter, the Waesche, based in Alameda, Calif. The Coast Guard has also stationed two rescue helicopters at the airport at Deadhorse, the town where the Trans-Alaska Pipeline begins.

The deployments are part of an annual summer surge that was started in 2012 when Shell first explored the oil fields off Alaska’s North Slope. The challenges of the new mission have been exacting, given the vast distances and limited support infrastructure on land. For several days this month the Alex Haley’s only helicopter, which operates from a retractable hanger on the ship’s aft was out of service, awaiting a spare part that had to be flown in on several hops from North Carolina.

This year’s deployments are intended to assess the requirements for operating in the Arctic, but the expected increase in human activity there will put new demands on the service.

“As a maritime nation we have responsibility for the safety and security of the people who are going to be using that ocean,” said Mr. Papp, of the State Department. “And we have a responsibility to protect the ocean from the people who will be using it.”

Steven Lee Myers reported from aboard the Alex Haley; Washington; Kotzebue and Barrow, Alaska; and Moscow and Murmansk, Russia. Eric Schmitt contributed reporting from Colorado Springs; James Hill from Murmansk; and Nikolay Khalip from Moscow.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/30/world/united-states-russia-arctic-exploration.html

 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.

 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
:lmao:

 
The cutter’s captain, Cmdr. Seth J. Denning, was a young ensign when he first crossed the Arctic Circle just north of the Bering Strait 19 years ago. “I never really realized that the Arctic was going to open up as much as it has — enough to allow this much activity,” he said. “I think it surprised many people.”
What about all the good things global warming has done?

 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.

 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
Okay you do that,listen to scientist spitting propaganda to alter the way you think and spend money. Its the same scientist that were spitting propaganda in the 60's and 70's saying we are changing the global temps to freezing cold. If you haven't learned yet usually where the crowd goes and follows, is usually wrong. There is many examples but you're probably to ignorant to listen so why even bother. Have a good day :)

 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
While you are entitled to you opinion, based upon the thinnest of arguements, psuedo-facts and underpinned by politics in almost all cases I have seen, the reality is In hope that you and everyone else standing in the way of our nation and world's well being stands your ground and accepts responsibility in as soon as 50 years when the DANGEROUS rhetoric that you spread comes home to roost.

I'm tired of the science denial, based upon selfsish "keep the status quo and #### the future generations" politics.

It's dangerous. I can recognize people's right to hold and preach dangerous policy based upon little more than political desires, but you best be damned sure I'll hold everyone responsible, those who aren't dead (which is another underpinning of the policy, hey, I'll be dead!) at least, for the harm they continue to preach.

I'm done with the selfish politics of the boomer generation and those who stupidly buy into their keep the status quo (that previous generations suffered to build up), and the right who wants to preserve "their" wealth and false view of morality (that is, ironically, more immoral than moral, not to mention utterly hypocritical) at the expense of those without much policitical voice, and the future generations.

You are entitled to your views, but they are both dangerous, and honestly, shameful.

Between this, gun violence, looking to limit the rights and others of freedoms and a lack of apparent caring about really tending to the situations of poverty and fair education, it's harder and harder for me to not see those who believe in this collection of policies as shortsighted, and/or mean, and/or callous, and/or hypocritical and/or dangerous.

Sadly, for most, I believe its a lot of "and"

/rant. And no, im not in the mood to go "point by point" - we've had that for 15 years on these boards. Just going to call it as I see it. Shortsighetd, selfish, obtuse and more often than not both callous and hypcritical.

 
Ok, back on point now that the percecets are kicking in.... (being couped up for 10 days plus gets the ire stirred up)...

This is not something to be looked at lightly. Once an area is "colonized" by a major power, it's near impossible to get them out.

Instead of coming up with excuses to go to war because someone tried to kill daddy, and instead of taking a very passive and incoherent general strategy abroad (is Obama working under some "plan" or is it just reactive appeasement of those who generally speaking are out enemies or at the least, not our friends and enemies of our enemies)?

This would be one major concern I have with say a Sanders or the libertarian minded folks re: role in world power politics and militarism, because this is the wrong place to "retreat" - we should retreat from war and not try to cause others, but we should aggressively pursue exploration with an overarching, coherent strategy with specific tactical means by which to achieve it.

 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
While you are entitled to you opinion, based upon the thinnest of arguements, psuedo-facts and underpinned by politics in almost all cases I have seen, the reality is In hope that you and everyone else standing in the way of our nation and world's well being stands your ground and accepts responsibility in as soon as 50 years when the DANGEROUS rhetoric that you spread comes home to roost.

I'm tired of the science denial, based upon selfsish "keep the status quo and #### the future generations" politics.

It's dangerous. I can recognize people's right to hold and preach dangerous policy based upon little more than political desires, but you best be damned sure I'll hold everyone responsible, those who aren't dead (which is another underpinning of the policy, hey, I'll be dead!) at least, for the harm they continue to preach.

I'm done with the selfish politics of the boomer generation and those who stupidly buy into their keep the status quo (that previous generations suffered to build up), and the right who wants to preserve "their" wealth and false view of morality (that is, ironically, more immoral than moral, not to mention utterly hypocritical) at the expense of those without much policitical voice, and the future generations.

You are entitled to your views, but they are both dangerous, and honestly, shameful.

Between this, gun violence, looking to limit the rights and others of freedoms and a lack of apparent caring about really tending to the situations of poverty and fair education, it's harder and harder for me to not see those who believe in this collection of policies as shortsighted, and/or mean, and/or callous, and/or hypocritical and/or dangerous.

Sadly, for most, I believe its a lot of "and"

/rant. And no, im not in the mood to go "point by point" - we've had that for 15 years on these boards. Just going to call it as I see it. Shortsighetd, selfish, obtuse and more often than not both callous and hypcritical.
DANGER! DANGER! CALL THE THOUGHT POLICE! THE EARTH IS ENDING! IT'S TIME TO PANIC!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
Okay you do that,listen to scientist spitting propaganda to alter the way you think and spend money. Its the same scientist that were spitting propaganda in the 60's and 70's saying we are changing the global temps to freezing cold. If you haven't learned yet usually where the crowd goes and follows, is usually wrong. There is many examples but you're probably to ignorant to listen so why even bother. Have a good day :)
Uh oh Tim, I think you've met your match.
 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
While you are entitled to you opinion, based upon the thinnest of arguements, psuedo-facts and underpinned by politics in almost all cases I have seen, the reality is In hope that you and everyone else standing in the way of our nation and world's well being stands your ground and accepts responsibility in as soon as 50 years when the DANGEROUS rhetoric that you spread comes home to roost.

I'm tired of the science denial, based upon selfsish "keep the status quo and #### the future generations" politics.

It's dangerous. I can recognize people's right to hold and preach dangerous policy based upon little more than political desires, but you best be damned sure I'll hold everyone responsible, those who aren't dead (which is another underpinning of the policy, hey, I'll be dead!) at least, for the harm they continue to preach.

I'm done with the selfish politics of the boomer generation and those who stupidly buy into their keep the status quo (that previous generations suffered to build up), and the right who wants to preserve "their" wealth and false view of morality (that is, ironically, more immoral than moral, not to mention utterly hypocritical) at the expense of those without much policitical voice, and the future generations.

You are entitled to your views, but they are both dangerous, and honestly, shameful.

Between this, gun violence, looking to limit the rights and others of freedoms and a lack of apparent caring about really tending to the situations of poverty and fair education, it's harder and harder for me to not see those who believe in this collection of policies as shortsighted, and/or mean, and/or callous, and/or hypocritical and/or dangerous.

Sadly, for most, I believe its a lot of "and"

/rant. And no, im not in the mood to go "point by point" - we've had that for 15 years on these boards. Just going to call it as I see it. Shortsighetd, selfish, obtuse and more often than not both callous and hypcritical.
DANGER! DANGER! CALL THE THOUGHT POLICE! THE EARTH IS ENDING! IT'S TIME TO PANIC!
Sad response considering the effects that are ALREADY happening.

That oh so liberal institution of the Military is undergoing huge investments in reaction to changing climate, rising water tables, etc. that in some cases they are already experiencing.

I just ask that if indeed these huge impacts do occur, and you and the others who are aligned with you are still around, take damn responsibility for the harm our inaction is causing.

 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
While you are entitled to you opinion, based upon the thinnest of arguements, psuedo-facts and underpinned by politics in almost all cases I have seen, the reality is In hope that you and everyone else standing in the way of our nation and world's well being stands your ground and accepts responsibility in as soon as 50 years when the DANGEROUS rhetoric that you spread comes home to roost.

I'm tired of the science denial, based upon selfsish "keep the status quo and #### the future generations" politics.

It's dangerous. I can recognize people's right to hold and preach dangerous policy based upon little more than political desires, but you best be damned sure I'll hold everyone responsible, those who aren't dead (which is another underpinning of the policy, hey, I'll be dead!) at least, for the harm they continue to preach.

I'm done with the selfish politics of the boomer generation and those who stupidly buy into their keep the status quo (that previous generations suffered to build up), and the right who wants to preserve "their" wealth and false view of morality (that is, ironically, more immoral than moral, not to mention utterly hypocritical) at the expense of those without much policitical voice, and the future generations.

You are entitled to your views, but they are both dangerous, and honestly, shameful.

Between this, gun violence, looking to limit the rights and others of freedoms and a lack of apparent caring about really tending to the situations of poverty and fair education, it's harder and harder for me to not see those who believe in this collection of policies as shortsighted, and/or mean, and/or callous, and/or hypocritical and/or dangerous.

Sadly, for most, I believe its a lot of "and"

/rant. And no, im not in the mood to go "point by point" - we've had that for 15 years on these boards. Just going to call it as I see it. Shortsighetd, selfish, obtuse and more often than not both callous and hypcritical.
DANGER! DANGER! CALL THE THOUGHT POLICE! THE EARTH IS ENDING! IT'S TIME TO PANIC!
Sad response considering the effects that are ALREADY happening.

That oh so liberal institution of the Military is undergoing huge investments in reaction to changing climate, rising water tables, etc. that in some cases they are already experiencing.

I just ask that if indeed these huge impacts do occur, and you and the others who are aligned with you are still around, take damn responsibility for the harm our inaction is causing.
And if they don't are you going to pay everybody back for the time and money they wasted?What specifically do you think we should do? What would it cost? And what specific result should be expected?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
In the past 135 years, sea level has risen 9 inches.

Sea level rise has been estimated to be on average +2.6 mm and +2.9 mm per year ± 0.4 mm since 1993. Even if we use 3mm a year going forward, that's a 6 inch rise over the next 50 years.

If the world survived a 9 inch rise then why is a 6 inch rise going to destroy the planet?

Also, the fact of the matter is that the combination of cheap alternative fuel technology and dwindling fossil fuels (rising costs) will solve this problem before it gets severe (assuming we continue to do the necessary alternative energy research).

 
Of course they'll take responsibility Koya. The Iraq War proves that doesn't it?
The Iraq War does not have hard and fast measures of success / failures. Well, since apparently using the metric "Deaths" - either of our men and women or innocents abroad - doesn't seem to matter to folks. And it's not something we see, feel, experience personally, everyday.

In Florida, which will really be a curious historical case study when you think, you already are having measurable impacts in certain cases such as inland salt water infiltration, water tables at tide etc.

 
Of course they'll take responsibility Koya. The Iraq War proves that doesn't it?
The Iraq War does not have hard and fast measures of success / failures. Well, since apparently using the metric "Deaths" - either of our men and women or innocents abroad - doesn't seem to matter to folks. And it's not something we see, feel, experience personally, everyday.

In Florida, which will really be a curious historical case study when you think, you already are having measurable impacts in certain cases such as inland salt water infiltration, water tables at tide etc.
Iraq invasion Cons: 100's of thousands of Iraqi deaths, thousands of U.S. military deaths, trillions of dollars, rise of ISIS.

Iraq invasion Pro: spread of American influence in the region.

IMO, the neocons are happy with the results since they accomplished their primary goal.

 
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1. And if they don't are you going to pay everybody back for the time and money they wasted?2. What specifically do you think we should do? What would it cost? And what specific result should be expected?
I'll answer in reverse.

2. First, have everyone just come to their senses and put responsible governance and honestly, national security as THE priority on this. Then, let's all look at the data and information outside of thinking about political outcomes. Finally, you have large national and regional planning, but a LOT of the things you could do have to be at a local or even micro-local level.

Some quick overarching thoughts, only where there is evidence of a need / ROI for the investment:

Infrastructure - Which we need to freakin' rebuild as it is. When it's done around here (Long Island, NY), long term resiliency is already in mind so it should be able to withstand the expected rising waters and building codes are changing, especially in lower lying areas. But, in some cases you may need huge mechanical systems in places like N.O. - or have people either leave, or accept total responsibility for their life / lost of it.

It's not one solution. Its a strategy, the appropriate investment (where there is a need and / or return and should be graded as such) overall, and then deployed to specific projects at the State then regional / local levels.

Cost? No idea. Think Eisenhower Highway level investment. And that worked pretty well, I'd say. But it doesn't have to be a straight "pay" - its investment, private companies doing the work but properly monitored and the jobs etc that would accompany. Trust me, it cost a ton of money, but it's not like there aren't ANY benefits through job creation etc. There may also be ways where you tie real estate development into paying for a lot of this underlying infrastructure, at least at the non-federal level, as they are one of the industries that most benefits for investment in infrastructure that will drive economic growth overall.

1. I believe that, as mentioned above, if we can all take a breath, put this issue to the side of politics (well, as much as possible) and treat the issue as national defense and security (and it is, directly in terms of damage done to the built environment from weather extremes or changes, and indirectly ala Putin and his plan to grab land that is not yet there.... but he KNOWS will be).

I do think this can be a big win for everyone - right, left, center. I see it here on Long Island at the regional and local levels. The places that the parties are working together are seeing the most growth, and a lot of that revolved around these very issues (since it's so pressing here on an Island where you still have significant industry dependent on various ecosystems).

 
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If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
:tinfoilhat: :crazy: :hophead: :toilet: :fishing: :fishy: :devil: :rolleyes: :lmao: :yucky: :wall: :rant:

 
1. And if they don't are you going to pay everybody back for the time and money they wasted?

2. What specifically do you think we should do? What would it cost? And what specific result should be expected?
I'll answer in reverse.

2. First, have everyone just come to their senses and put responsible governance and honestly, national security as THE priority on this. Then, let's all look at the data and information outside of thinking about political outcomes. Finally, you have large national and regional planning, but a LOT of the things you could do have to be at a local or even micro-local level.

Some quick overarching thoughts, only where there is evidence of a need / ROI for the investment:

Infrastructure - Which we need to freakin' rebuild as it is. When it's done around here (Long Island, NY), long term resiliency is already in mind so it should be able to withstand the expected rising waters and building codes are changing, especially in lower lying areas. But, in some cases you may need huge mechanical systems in places like N.O. - or have people either leave, or accept total responsibility for their life / lost of it.

It's not one solution. Its a strategy, the appropriate investment (where there is a need and / or return and should be graded as such) overall, and then deployed to specific projects at the State then regional / local levels.

Cost? No idea. Think Eisenhower Highway level investment. And that worked pretty well, I'd say. But it doesn't have to be a straight "pay" - its investment, private companies doing the work but properly monitored and the jobs etc that would accompany. Trust me, it cost a ton of money, but it's not like there aren't ANY benefits through job creation etc. There may also be ways where you tie real estate development into paying for a lot of this underlying infrastructure, at least at the non-federal level, as they are one of the industries that most benefits for investment in infrastructure that will drive economic growth overall.

1. I believe that, as mentioned above, if we can all take a breath, put this issue to the side of politics (well, as much as possible) and treat the issue as national defense and security (and it is, directly in terms of damage done to the built environment from weather extremes or changes, and indirectly ala Putin and his plan to grab land that is not yet there.... but he KNOWS will be).

I do think this can be a big win for everyone - right, left, center. I see it here on Long Island at the regional and local levels. The places that the parties are working together are seeing the most growth, and a lot of that revolved around these very issues (since it's so pressing here on an Island where you still have significant industry dependent on various ecosystems).
I have no problem preparing for what we think will happen through infrastructure improvements or countering Russia. That makes complete sense. My issue is with throttling the economy based on the idea that we can stop something we actually have little control over.

We are better off spending resources preparing for the changes.

 
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
You wouldn't know science if it ran over you with a Mack truck. You have become so consumed with far-left kookie rhetoric lately.

 
1. And if they don't are you going to pay everybody back for the time and money they wasted?

2. What specifically do you think we should do? What would it cost? And what specific result should be expected?
I'll answer in reverse.

2. First, have everyone just come to their senses and put responsible governance and honestly, national security as THE priority on this. Then, let's all look at the data and information outside of thinking about political outcomes. Finally, you have large national and regional planning, but a LOT of the things you could do have to be at a local or even micro-local level.

Some quick overarching thoughts, only where there is evidence of a need / ROI for the investment:

Infrastructure - Which we need to freakin' rebuild as it is. When it's done around here (Long Island, NY), long term resiliency is already in mind so it should be able to withstand the expected rising waters and building codes are changing, especially in lower lying areas. But, in some cases you may need huge mechanical systems in places like N.O. - or have people either leave, or accept total responsibility for their life / lost of it.

It's not one solution. Its a strategy, the appropriate investment (where there is a need and / or return and should be graded as such) overall, and then deployed to specific projects at the State then regional / local levels.

Cost? No idea. Think Eisenhower Highway level investment. And that worked pretty well, I'd say. But it doesn't have to be a straight "pay" - its investment, private companies doing the work but properly monitored and the jobs etc that would accompany. Trust me, it cost a ton of money, but it's not like there aren't ANY benefits through job creation etc. There may also be ways where you tie real estate development into paying for a lot of this underlying infrastructure, at least at the non-federal level, as they are one of the industries that most benefits for investment in infrastructure that will drive economic growth overall.

1. I believe that, as mentioned above, if we can all take a breath, put this issue to the side of politics (well, as much as possible) and treat the issue as national defense and security (and it is, directly in terms of damage done to the built environment from weather extremes or changes, and indirectly ala Putin and his plan to grab land that is not yet there.... but he KNOWS will be).

I do think this can be a big win for everyone - right, left, center. I see it here on Long Island at the regional and local levels. The places that the parties are working together are seeing the most growth, and a lot of that revolved around these very issues (since it's so pressing here on an Island where you still have significant industry dependent on various ecosystems).
A trillion dollar shovel ready initiative didn't really do this when we really needed it to

 
I love how Obama has a group looking into the Arctic starting in 2013 and yet here we are in 2015...still only two ice-breakers, no navy, no search and rescue, no military exercises, no cold water experience, no troops, plans to lessen troops in Alaska and Putin is making the U.S. his beyotch and taking us to the woodshed.

Get your xxxx together and get something done!

 
I love how Obama has a group looking into the Arctic starting in 2013 and yet here we are in 2015...still only two ice-breakers, no navy, no search and rescue, no military exercises, no cold water experience, no troops, plans to lessen troops in Alaska and Putin is making the U.S. his beyotch and taking us to the woodshed.

Get your xxxx together and get something done!
:lol:

 
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Cuz the reset button worked so well for everyone, including Ukranians.

 
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Good Lord, man.
 
jon_mx said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
You wouldn't know science if it ran over you with a Mack truck. You have become so consumed with far-left kookie rhetoric lately.
Getting way out there lately.
 
Let's see, China has recently passed us in emissions. In about 15 to 20 years China will be generating more CO2 than the entire rest of the world did in 2005. Everybody in the entire world could cease generating CO2 except China, and we would still be doomed according to the IPCC and their computer models That is what the so-called science is saying.

 
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timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
That's cute.

 
jon_mx said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
You wouldn't know science if it ran over you with a Mack truck. You have become so consumed with far-left kookie rhetoric lately.
:lmao:

 
cstu said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
In the past 135 years, sea level has risen 9 inches.

Sea level rise has been estimated to be on average +2.6 mm and +2.9 mm per year ± 0.4 mm since 1993. Even if we use 3mm a year going forward, that's a 6 inch rise over the next 50 years.

If the world survived a 9 inch rise then why is a 6 inch rise going to destroy the planet?

Also, the fact of the matter is that the combination of cheap alternative fuel technology and dwindling fossil fuels (rising costs) will solve this problem before it gets severe (assuming we continue to do the necessary alternative energy research).
Serious question - is there a "tipping point" so to speak were if the levels reach a certain point, it accelerates and/or starts disrupting infrastructure more?

 
jon_mx said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
You wouldn't know science if it ran over you with a Mack truck. You have become so consumed with far-left kookie rhetoric lately.
:lmao:
Tim for some reason i feel like you are the guy that watches and truly believes in the show Ancient Aliens just because you know they have "scientist" and "professors" on the show

 
Last edited by a moderator:
cstu said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
In the past 135 years, sea level has risen 9 inches.

Sea level rise has been estimated to be on average +2.6 mm and +2.9 mm per year ± 0.4 mm since 1993. Even if we use 3mm a year going forward, that's a 6 inch rise over the next 50 years.

If the world survived a 9 inch rise then why is a 6 inch rise going to destroy the planet?

Also, the fact of the matter is that the combination of cheap alternative fuel technology and dwindling fossil fuels (rising costs) will solve this problem before it gets severe (assuming we continue to do the necessary alternative energy research).
Serious question - is there a "tipping point" so to speak were if the levels reach a certain point, it accelerates and/or starts disrupting infrastructure more?
Serious question. This tipping point has become a talking point for discussion of policy. Do you care to explain the scientific basis for it without some cut and paste stupidity.

 
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
What does that have to do with Russia claiming portions of the arctic and the arctic sea floor for themselves for purposes of oil/gas/mineral extraction? They have been doing major military exercises in the region as well.

 
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
What does that have to do with Russia claiming portions of the arctic and the arctic sea floor for themselves for purposes of oil/gas/mineral extraction? They have been doing major military exercises in the region as well.
Nothing.
 
cstu said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
In the past 135 years, sea level has risen 9 inches.

Sea level rise has been estimated to be on average +2.6 mm and +2.9 mm per year ± 0.4 mm since 1993. Even if we use 3mm a year going forward, that's a 6 inch rise over the next 50 years.

If the world survived a 9 inch rise then why is a 6 inch rise going to destroy the planet?

Also, the fact of the matter is that the combination of cheap alternative fuel technology and dwindling fossil fuels (rising costs) will solve this problem before it gets severe (assuming we continue to do the necessary alternative energy research).
Serious question - is there a "tipping point" so to speak were if the levels reach a certain point, it accelerates and/or starts disrupting infrastructure more?
Serious question. This tipping point has become a talking point for discussion of policy. Do you care to explain the scientific basis for it without some cut and paste stupidity.
I was asking. I have no interest in a pissing contest.

This is why I usually stay out of these threads.

 
cstu said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
In the past 135 years, sea level has risen 9 inches.

Sea level rise has been estimated to be on average +2.6 mm and +2.9 mm per year ± 0.4 mm since 1993. Even if we use 3mm a year going forward, that's a 6 inch rise over the next 50 years.

If the world survived a 9 inch rise then why is a 6 inch rise going to destroy the planet?

Also, the fact of the matter is that the combination of cheap alternative fuel technology and dwindling fossil fuels (rising costs) will solve this problem before it gets severe (assuming we continue to do the necessary alternative energy research).
Serious question - is there a "tipping point" so to speak were if the levels reach a certain point, it accelerates and/or starts disrupting infrastructure more?
Serious question. This tipping point has become a talking point for discussion of policy. Do you care to explain the scientific basis for it without some cut and paste stupidity.
I was asking. I have no interest in a pissing contest.

This is why I usually stay out of these threads.
So you just troll these threads by dropping little bombs and leaving without offering anything intelligent to say while pretending to have some superior understanding of the issue. Ok. Thanks.

 
cstu said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
In the past 135 years, sea level has risen 9 inches.

Sea level rise has been estimated to be on average +2.6 mm and +2.9 mm per year ± 0.4 mm since 1993. Even if we use 3mm a year going forward, that's a 6 inch rise over the next 50 years.

If the world survived a 9 inch rise then why is a 6 inch rise going to destroy the planet?

Also, the fact of the matter is that the combination of cheap alternative fuel technology and dwindling fossil fuels (rising costs) will solve this problem before it gets severe (assuming we continue to do the necessary alternative energy research).
Serious question - is there a "tipping point" so to speak were if the levels reach a certain point, it accelerates and/or starts disrupting infrastructure more?
Serious question. This tipping point has become a talking point for discussion of policy. Do you care to explain the scientific basis for it without some cut and paste stupidity.
I was asking. I have no interest in a pissing contest.

This is why I usually stay out of these threads.
So you just troll these threads by dropping little bombs and leaving without offering anything intelligent to say while pretending to have some superior understanding of the issue. Ok. Thanks.
Where did I pretend to have superior understanding? I asked a question.

 
KP, I think your question was quite reasonable. I asked my mom's friend from NASA (the one in charge of the comet program) nearly that same question a few years ago, and she told me that by the time we are able to notice results of climate change that affect our everyday lives in a negative fashion, it will be far too late to do anything about it.

 
cstu said:
timschochet said:
RealReactions said:
timschochet said:
If we want to save the planet from climate change we're going to have to rely on other countries like Russia and China to do it. Because so long as we have conservatives in control of our House of Representatives, we'll always refuse to accept reality and scientific evidence. We're ####ed.
Global Warming isn't as big of a deal as you think. You're taking an extreme stance on it right now. The earth has cycles of weather. You can't just look back 100 years and say oh its so much hotter now than then. You have to look back thousands of years even millions and you can see there is a pattern that the earth has almost like seasons. Just chill out and relax the Earth will be just fine as you live on it and 500 years after you are gone unless there is a nuclear war and then everything goes to ####.
I think you're right. For my own stress level, I need to stop listening to scientists who have devoted their lives' work to this issue, and instead follow the advice of regular joes on the Internet.
In the past 135 years, sea level has risen 9 inches.

Sea level rise has been estimated to be on average +2.6 mm and +2.9 mm per year ± 0.4 mm since 1993. Even if we use 3mm a year going forward, that's a 6 inch rise over the next 50 years.

If the world survived a 9 inch rise then why is a 6 inch rise going to destroy the planet?

Also, the fact of the matter is that the combination of cheap alternative fuel technology and dwindling fossil fuels (rising costs) will solve this problem before it gets severe (assuming we continue to do the necessary alternative energy research).
Serious question - is there a "tipping point" so to speak were if the levels reach a certain point, it accelerates and/or starts disrupting infrastructure more?
Serious question. This tipping point has become a talking point for discussion of policy. Do you care to explain the scientific basis for it without some cut and paste stupidity.
The reason I don't believe in a tipping point is due to the logarithmic effect of CO2 (it takes a doubling of CO2 concentration to produce a straight line increase in temperature). That's an accepted scientific theory but it seems largely ignored by alarmists.

 
KP, I think your question was quite reasonable. I asked my mom's friend from NASA (the one in charge of the comet program) nearly that same question a few years ago, and she told me that by the time we are able to notice results of climate change that affect our everyday lives in a negative fashion, it will be far too late to do anything about it.
That is a popular talking point that is used as a scare tactic which has no scientific basis. If you go back to 1988 the experts at the UN said by the year 2000, if nothing is done we will pass the tripping point and there will be entire nations wiped off the planet. In 1995 new tripping points were established, which we have since surpassed. In 2000 and again in 2005, more tripping points for certain doom were established, which have been surpassed. Now we are at this arbitrary limit where we must do everything possible to prevent a 2 degree rise from 1870 climate or else we are doomed. This irreversible certain doom rhetoric is nothing but made up fear-mongering. They have no idea even if these tripping points exist let alone what levels they are at.

 
Global economic growth picked up pace slightly to 3.3% in 2014, according to the IMF, while the amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere remained at 2013 levels of 32.3 billion tonnes.

"This is both a very welcome surprise and a significant one," said IEA chief economist Fatih Birol. "For the first time, greenhouse gas emissions are decoupling from economic growth," he said.

The halt in emissions growth reflected changing patterns of energy consumption in China, including using less coal. The world's biggest polluter also relied more heavily on renewable sources, such as hydropower, solar and wind to generate electricity.
 

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