Today April 7th 2025 is being projected as "Black Monday" (1 Viewer)

[Acrobat7]

There’s no way this thread works.

The notion of keeping any economic discussion apolitical is borderline impossible in this current environment

And yet, at the same time, it’s easy to do.

It may be easy, but it's also pointless. You could also just flip a coin.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

There’s no way this thread works.

Nope....this stuff can't be separated from "politics"

 

[shuke]

Can someone much smarter than myself please explain why it's unfair to tax countries the same amount they tax on our goods that we export?
Very basics and doesn't need to be political, keep it in the Economics lane, some of you are amazing at explaining these things to the rest of us

Why is it bad to have the same amount of tariffs on countries wanting to sell their goods here in America?
And please don't scream at us, we just want to understand why that basic theory is causing all this mayhem

I'm not sure how anyone still thinks that tariffs are being taxed on the countries. The US company that imports the goods is paying the tax.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Can someone much smarter than myself please explain why it's unfair to tax countries the same amount they tax on our goods that we export?
Very basics and doesn't need to be political, keep it in the Economics lane, some of you are amazing at explaining these things to the rest of us

Why is it bad to have the same amount of tariffs on countries wanting to sell their goods here in America?
And please don't scream at us, we just want to understand why that basic theory is causing all this mayhem

The theory isn't causing the problem. The uninformed and uneducated actions in the name of the theory are causing the problem. That in turn causes everyone to question ability to pull off a very complex global adjustment. That in turn causes a lack of confidence. Throw on top of that a complete inability to explain/display knowledge of the situation and everyone globally is in a panic. As they should be.

ETA: And tariffs ARE NOT a tax on other countries.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Can someone much smarter than myself please explain why it's unfair to tax countries the same amount they tax on our goods that we export?
Very basics and doesn't need to be political, keep it in the Economics lane, some of you are amazing at explaining these things to the rest of us

Why is it bad to have the same amount of tariffs on countries wanting to sell their goods here in America?
And please don't scream at us, we just want to understand why that basic theory is causing all this mayhem

As others have said, that is not how the rate was calculated. They based it on the trade deficit on goods (not including services, which is a major export). It is not based on the tariffs that other countries charge us.

Trump’s Reciprocal Tariff Calculations Are Nonsense, Will Punish Mutually Beneficial Trade

If you tax trade, you get less of it—both imports and exports alike. Even a less-flawed version of Trump’s tariff plan would be unlikely to achieve its goals.

taxfoundation.org

First, the formula. The alleged “tariff rate” from each trading partner is fully a function of trade aggregates, specifically, the deficit divided by US imports, with a minimum of 10 percent. No factors discussed by the administration in these documents or anywhere else (like tariffs, digital services taxes, value-added taxes, or monetary policy) play any role.

For example, Singapore is a relatively free-trade-oriented country, while Brazil makes considerably more use of tariffs and other trade manipulations. However, both end up with the 10 percent rate because of their goods trade balances with the US. By contrast, Vietnam, which exports a great deal to the US but has also worked to make its policies amenable to the US, gets no credit for the effort.

The US response is generally half the alleged rate from other countries, though in some cases it appears to round up an extra percentage point beyond a simple halving.

Here's the problem, China uses Vietnam to help create and export their products to the U.S., so you have to factor in China when creating a tariff for Vietnam or else China will just work around direct tariffs placed on China.

 

[Ilov80s]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Can someone much smarter than myself please explain why it's unfair to tax countries the same amount they tax on our goods that we export?
Very basics and doesn't need to be political, keep it in the Economics lane, some of you are amazing at explaining these things to the rest of us

Why is it bad to have the same amount of tariffs on countries wanting to sell their goods here in America?
And please don't scream at us, we just want to understand why that basic theory is causing all this mayhem

You don’t tax countries.

Virtually all taxes are ultimately borne by individual consumers.

So in its simplest terms these tariffs will be paid by American consumers in the form of higher prices for most goods. It’s a consumption tax that hits the hardest amongst those that can least afford it.

Is that actually factual? Are there any other possible outcomes?
I'm just asking if that's what you believe based on real experiences
Thanks

Possible outcomes? Of course. Probable? No. For example, its POSSIBLE the companies eat into their bottom lines and bare the brunt of all of it. There's a 0.00000000000000000000000000001% chance of that ever happening.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them?

US factories are getting more automated every day

 

[beer 30]

If you want a reminder I’m an idiot my wife puts out a newsletter.

:would subscribe:

 

[Joe Bryant]

There’s no way this thread works.

Probably not but we'll let it try this morning and see if people can keep the political shots out of it.

 

[culdeus]

bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them?

US factories are getting more automated every day

It is more accurate to say that all factories are becoming more automated. New factories are by and large fully automated and run by robots and their overlords.

That we will get blue-collar workers swinging hammers at rivets and earning middle-class income from union jobs is unrealistic.

Furthermore the jobs that resemble this type of work tends to get the fewest applicants of any type in the salary range offered.

 

[Ilov80s]

bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them?

US factories are getting more automated every day

Great point. Though that would half defeat the idea of bringing jobs back here.

 

[Ilov80s]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

That's the rub right? This kind of infrastructure needs to be in place along with government subsidies and support. We don't have that. Not even close. None of that exists right now and there is nothing (even at the committee level) in the works to create it. We are basically rage quitting and burning bridges with everyone with no plan B.

If it were, I would have chosen an industry or 2 to test this out with first and not take on the whole entire world and all industries at once.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

These companies most likely just need to wait out mid-terms now.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Though that would half defeat the idea of bringing jobs back here.

exactly

 

[rockaction]

There’s no way this thread works.

Probably not but we'll let it try this morning and see if people can keep the political shots out of it.

Sounds good. I'm all for it. It's affecting so many people and is such an overarching course of action that I'm glad you're giving us a bit of leeway to discuss it. Thanks. I hope we (and that includes a hothead like me) are up for it and treat the opportunity with restraint and consideration of others. I hope we keep it cool.

 

[cheese]

Can someone much smarter than myself please explain why it's unfair to tax countries the same amount they tax on our goods that we export?
Very basics and doesn't need to be political, keep it in the Economics lane, some of you are amazing at explaining these things to the rest of us

Why is it bad to have the same amount of tariffs on countries wanting to sell their goods here in America?
And please don't scream at us, we just want to understand why that basic theory is causing all this mayhem

Just my 2 cents, but stock market is based much more on perception than reality. Why is it bad is mostly that people who understand 5% of the facts of the situation are panicking because people who understand 10% of the situation are telling them to. That doesn’t mean this wasn’t a mistake. Doing anything that creates widespread unrest from investors is basically always bad even if the policy itself is fine.

 

[KGB]

Retirement money

Play money.
Purchased on 4/4
Uvxy $38 call for average cost of $8.50.
Expires 4/17

5 min to open

 

[Ilov80s]

American manufacturing is actually quite strong. It’s very efficient and very automated. Countries that are free trade and ones that are more protectionist just see their manufacturing give way to a service economy. That’s just what happens in powerful, developed economies. I worry we aren’t fighting other countries right now but fighting nature and economic truths in an attempt to go back to a time that none of us actually lived in and mostly only know about from movies and tv.

 

[McBokonon]

bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them?

US factories are getting more automated every day

Great point. Though that would half defeat the idea of bringing jobs back here.

And then we’d also be taking away jobs from overseas workers who we want to consume more of our products made by robots. 1. Take low-wage jobs from foreign countries and bring them here, potentially reducing their overall discretionary income. 2. Bring jobs to the USA that nobody wants and will be automated anyway. 3. Build products here, with robots, to sell to a now shrinking international market.

 

[cheese]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

As someone who tries to hire blue collar workers, there is no chance of the “people who want to work them” part. There is basically not a salary that gets anyone interested in this kind of work anymore. You can’t bring factories back to USA when most of the ones left are running short shifts and trying to figure out how to survive without bodies.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

That's how it is being sold, of course. BUT - that is not all our goods, so there is no need for these blanket tariffs. There are products we frankly cant make or grow ourselves, so tariffs on those products and countries make 0 sense. On top of that, it takes time to construct ir upgrade facilities as 80s pointed out - so again, in the meantime we get hit for no reason. On top of that, the very jobs they are supposedly trying to save are also the ones who the people in charge want to replace with AI and that tech.

Imo way more likely is this is very much a power grab for the 1%, because they always get richer coming out of a recession. Also IMO this is all about the race for AI and going all-in trying to get there first and keep it here. It certainly wasnt steel and auto businesses that were prominent at inauguration - a the tech oligarchs were lined up.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

As someone who tries to hire blue collar workers, there is no chance of the “people who want to work them” part. There is basically not a salary that gets anyone interested in this kind of work anymore. You can’t bring factories back to USA when most of the ones left are running short shifts and trying to figure out how to survive without bodies.

Can you elaborate? Exactly what are you hiring for and and at what wages? There is no wage that gets people interested?

 

[Ilov80s]

bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them?

US factories are getting more automated every day

Great point. Though that would half defeat the idea of bringing jobs back here.

And then we’d also be taking away jobs from overseas workers who we want to consume more of our products made by robots. 1. Take low-wage jobs from foreign countries and bring them here, potentially reducing their overall discretionary income. 2. Bring jobs to the USA that nobody wants and will be automated anyway. 3. Build products here, with robots, to sell to a now shrinking international market.

Yes I’m an idiot when it comes to economics. I don’t really know any more than enough to teach an Econ 101 class but I struggle to see the upside here.

 

[The_Man]

The issue with trying to on-shore all the manufacturing is it's at least a 2 or 3-year process and none of the companies are confident that tariffs will last that long, so they're just going to slash their spending and wait to see what happens. And the entire economy is going to crater in the meantime

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

That's the rub right? This kind of infrastructure needs to be in place along with government subsidies and support. We don't have that. Not even close. None of that exists right now and there is nothing (even at the committee level) in the works to create it. We are basically rage quitting and burning bridges with everyone with no plan B.

If it were, I would have chosen an industry or 2 to test this out with first and not take on the whole entire world and all industries at once.

The most logical and realistic way to address these alleged "concerns" of bringing things back here because of "national security" looks a lot like what they are doing with the semiconductor chip plant.

 

[Godsbrother]

I retired last July. Glad that I did but had I known this was coming I would have kept working.

 

[Ilov80s]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

As someone who tries to hire blue collar workers, there is no chance of the “people who want to work them” part. There is basically not a salary that gets anyone interested in this kind of work anymore. You can’t bring factories back to USA when most of the ones left are running short shifts and trying to figure out how to survive without bodies.

Right it takes a generations worth of time to reshift people’s mindsets on what they want their employment to look like. It’s similar to the potential loss of immigrants and migrants for agriculture. There’s no reasonable amount of money on earth you can pay 99.99% of Americans to get them to pick strawberries for 10-12 hours a day.

 

[Ilov80s]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

That's the rub right? This kind of infrastructure needs to be in place along with government subsidies and support. We don't have that. Not even close. None of that exists right now and there is nothing (even at the committee level) in the works to create it. We are basically rage quitting and burning bridges with everyone with no plan B.

If it were, I would have chosen an industry or 2 to test this out with first and not take on the whole entire world and all industries at once.

The most logical and realistic way to address these alleged "concerns" of bringing things back here because of "national security" looks a lot like what they are doing with the semiconductor chip plant.

I would love to hear more about that

 

[Mookie]

I'm now down 20% in my retirement accounts. No choice but to ride it out, but I'm mad as Hell.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

That's the rub right? This kind of infrastructure needs to be in place along with government subsidies and support. We don't have that. Not even close. None of that exists right now and there is nothing (even at the committee level) in the works to create it. We are basically rage quitting and burning bridges with everyone with no plan B.

If it were, I would have chosen an industry or 2 to test this out with first and not take on the whole entire world and all industries at once.

The most logical and realistic way to address these alleged "concerns" of bringing things back here because of "national security" looks a lot like what they are doing with the semiconductor chip plant.

I would love to hear more about that

CHIPS and Science Act - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bigbottom]

Can someone much smarter than myself please explain why it's unfair to tax countries the same amount they tax on our goods that we export?
Very basics and doesn't need to be political, keep it in the Economics lane, some of you are amazing at explaining these things to the rest of us

Why is it bad to have the same amount of tariffs on countries wanting to sell their goods here in America?
And please don't scream at us, we just want to understand why that basic theory is causing all this mayhem

It’s a good question. But that’s not how the tariff percentages were determined.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

That's how it is being sold, of course. BUT - that is not all our goods, so there is no need for these blanket tariffs. There are products we frankly cant make or grow ourselves, so tariffs on those products and countries make 0 sense. On top of that, it takes time to construct ir upgrade facilities as 80s pointed out - so again, in the meantime we get hit for no reason. On top of that, the very jobs they are supposedly trying to save are also the ones who the people in charge want to replace with AI and that tech.

Imo way more likely is this is very much a power grab for the 1%, because they always get richer coming out of a recession. Also IMO this is all about the race for AI and going all-in trying to get there first and keep it here. It certainly wasnt steel and auto businesses that were prominent at inauguration - a the tech oligarchs were lined up.

That's one of my big questions is how long does it take to build these factories? Sounds mythical or pie in the sky and not realistic

 

[Navin Johnson]

Can someone much smarter than myself please explain why it's unfair to tax countries the same amount they tax on our goods that we export?
Very basics and doesn't need to be political, keep it in the Economics lane, some of you are amazing at explaining these things to the rest of us

Why is it bad to have the same amount of tariffs on countries wanting to sell their goods here in America?
And please don't scream at us, we just want to understand why that basic theory is causing all this mayhem

It’s a good question. But that’s not how the tariff percentages were determined.

IIRC, they were determined on the overall trade deficits we had with each country

 

[arrow1]

3-4 years from retirement. Count me as concerned.

 

[Lord Lucan]

I'm now down 20% in my retirement accounts. No choice but to ride it out, but I'm mad as Hell.

Am sure most people will have realised this - but just in case anyone hasn't - this is happening all over the world, I'm English (live about 30 miles from London), and I'm down 20% in my retirement accounts too (and that was before today's latest slump, with the FTSE down around 4% at the moment).

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I'm now down 20% in my retirement accounts. No choice but to ride it out, but I'm mad as Hell.

Am sure most people will have realised this - but just in case anyone hasn't - this is happening all over the world, I'm English (live about 30 miles from London), and I'm down 20% in my retirement accounts too (and that was before today's latest slump, with the FTSE down around 4% at the moment).

And I think the Asian markets are being hit extremely hard as well

 

[bigbottom]

I hope the 49.8% who voted for him enjoy the collapse! This is a war of choice and economic malpractice.

The stock market isn't the economy.

Of course but if we have a recession in the stock market it’s going to cause people to lose jobs, spend less money, lose more jobs, etc. Not a guarantee but highly likely.

You can't see the forest through the trees. You're looking at the short-term here, but this is about a re-ordering of world trade and changing dynamics with supply chains. After COVID, it was patently obvious that the US was/is too reliant on other countries for items important for our long-term prosperity and existence.

I get the plan but how long is it going to take to retool the whole country and bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them? 5 years? 10? What happens to people during that time?

Interesting thought given all the people revolting over return to work policies. Can’t really work a manufacturing job in gym shorts from your family room. And do we have the training/vocational pipeline with Gen Z to fill all these manufacturing jobs in 10 years?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

We did hit 36,700 around 20 minutes ago, it's come up a little from that

 

[Cricket]

I know this is probably a stupid comment… But hopefully it’s a glimmer of hope.

I am watching stocks that the government is putting trillions of dollars into for national security reasons. The stocks are tanking. Anybody who knows what’s going on and where govt money is being put understands completely that not only will the stocks rebound to their current levels, but they are projected to reach unprecedented levels. What makes this great is that these particular stocks are already at unprecedented levels.

ETA… I know this doesn’t take care of the problems today or even next month, but I can also tell you that there is no way this market stays the way it is currently going.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

bring back all these manufacturing jobs and get people to want to work them?

US factories are getting more automated every day

It is more accurate to say that all factories are becoming more automated. New factories are by and large fully automated and run by robots and their overlords.

That we will get blue-collar workers swinging hammers at rivets and earning middle-class income from union jobs is unrealistic.

Furthermore the jobs that resemble this type of work tends to get the fewest applicants of any type in the salary range offered.

Yes, you’re right. I typed US factories because the way I understand it one of the big reasons for all of this is to “bring back manufacturing jobs”

 

[Major]

We did hit 36,700 around 20 minutes ago, it's come up a little from that

I was thinking about going long on some futures this morning in hopes something like this would happen i.e. Trump backing off and reconsidering his actions (90 day pause, etc). Still I think a lot of the damage has been done.

 

[NutterButter]

Well this thread title has been a let down.

 

[Desert_Power]

Well this thread title has been a let down.

Not so fast.

 

[The Longtime Lurker]

This is all completely insane. The volatility, wow.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Another fundamental problem with the approach Trump has taken to the trade imbalances:

Using Vietnam as an example - In 2023, Vietnam's GDP per capita was recorded at $4,282 in current US dollars, according to the World Bank.

What rational US company wants to export goods to Vietnam? There is no financial reason to mass market US manufactured goods or even agriculture to a country that can't afford it - shipping alone would cost more than the US companies could hope to recoup, let alone profit from.



Vietnam should have a trade surplus with the US - and the US benefits from said surplus. Over the long-term, when Vietnam builds up its GDP via exports, it will be a more viable market. But for now, they are happy to reduce their own tariffs on US goods because they simply can't afford many in any scenario.

If you see my post above, Chinese companies set up factories in Vietnam so you need to tariff Vietnam for certain goods to make sure that China doesn't try to work around tariffs by going through Vietnam. Once China plays ball, then you can remove the Vietnam tariffs.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

We did hit 36,700 around 20 minutes ago, it's come up a little from that

38,700 at 10:20am
The other was 9:45am
35 minute spread, a 2,000 point turnaround, WOW!

 

[Major]

This is all completely insane. The volatility, wow.

Great day to play the VIX :makeitrain:

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Well this thread title has been a let down.

That was the original intention, I certainly am not hoping to be right but on Sunday there were loud pundits preaching this as a forecast