LionOfGosforth
Footballguy
Hey dude, I wanted to ask you a question directly via pm so as not to clutter up the thread but it says you can't receive messages?
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Mark Ingram (7 Viewers)
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Once real drafting starts Ingram is not going to last until the 2nd turn. He'll be a mid/late 2nd round pick in every draft, even PPR.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Well looks like he's going to be on all of my teams then. He's a mid 2nd round pick on Yahoo! ADP btw. It's one of the most used mock sites out there.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Telling me what a players ADP is in some particular league provides very little actionable information. There are too many variables between leagues that to say he was acquired at 3.05 doesn't tell me a thing about how to prepare to draft him in my league. It is far more useful to know how many RBs were drafted before Ingram (or any other player). I know that if he is the 8th RB off the board then I can expect him to be gone at the 2-3 turn in my league, but if he's the 10th RB off the board then I have a legitimate shot at him in that spot.
I am not sure why it isn't more common to use that method when discussing players.
I am not sure why it isn't more common to use that method when discussing players.
Apple Juice
Footballguy
Loved Ingram last year and love him this year. His injuries have been a negative but that means he has fresher legs. Should be over 10 touchdowns easily. Last year showed he's an excellent receiver. I imagine Payton will annoy owners by using Hightowner and Spiller more than people would like but I think his volume will still equate to top five in the league.
Real league drafts, not mocks...and not the silly leagues that do redraft super early before we even get into pre-season
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Buzzbait
Footballguy
I like Ingram as a RB1 but I'm just not sure exactly where he fits into the pecking order. My opinion is that he's in the discussion with Bell and Freeman. Bell is obviously going to score more ppg but you have the 4 game suspension to consider.
According to the latest ADP
Bell is RB#5
Freeman is RB#7
Ingram is RB#11 (behind Lacy and Martin)
Getting Ingram as the #11 RB is nice value IMO and no way would I take Lacy or Martin ahead of him.
Dodds total scoring (Standard FBG scoring)
Freeman is RB#7
Ingram is RB#8
Bell is RB#12
Dodds ppg scoring (Standard FBG scoring)
Bell is RB#2
Ingram is RB#8
Freeman is RB#9
Note: Dodds has Freeman scoring more total points but projects Ingram to start one less game which puts him slightly higher in ppg.
I have Bell #7, Ingram #8 and Freeman #9. If all three fell to me it would come down to Bell or Ingram with how to weigh Bell's 4 game suspension being the deciding factor.
According to the latest ADP
Bell is RB#5
Freeman is RB#7
Ingram is RB#11 (behind Lacy and Martin)
Getting Ingram as the #11 RB is nice value IMO and no way would I take Lacy or Martin ahead of him.
Dodds total scoring (Standard FBG scoring)
Freeman is RB#7
Ingram is RB#8
Bell is RB#12
Dodds ppg scoring (Standard FBG scoring)
Bell is RB#2
Ingram is RB#8
Freeman is RB#9
Note: Dodds has Freeman scoring more total points but projects Ingram to start one less game which puts him slightly higher in ppg.
I have Bell #7, Ingram #8 and Freeman #9. If all three fell to me it would come down to Bell or Ingram with how to weigh Bell's 4 game suspension being the deciding factor.
saintfool
Dead sexy
Buzzbait
Footballguy
Agree. I'm not concerned about Spiller impacting Ingram's stats as much as Sean Payton. NO loves to put the ball in Brees' hands down by the goal line and throw the ball.
Using the Data Dominator I checked to see how many times Ingram carried the ball from the 5 yard line or closer and it was 10 times. Only 10 other RBs carried the ball more in that situation so considering that Ingram missed 4 games that doesn't seem too bad. It just seems like every time I was watching NO on the red zone channel they were passing but the stats say Ingram was given a decent # of opportunities.
RB carries from the OPP 5 yard line or closer
saintfool
Dead sexy
I'm fairly convinced that Ingram will be used the same way he was last year. The o-line might be better, the passing game re-tooled, and they're trying to get back into the playoffs. Things that might offset that? Brees is playing for a new contract. Sean Payton hasn't committed to the running game in recent years.
Buzzbait
Footballguy
Agree and the bolded comment is the only thing keeping me from feeling more confident on Ingram. I'm not worried about the other RBs on the NO roster and not so much worried about his health. I just can't get a feel for Payton committing to Ingram more than he's done in recent years.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Payton doesn't have to commit to him more for Ingram to provide value at his current ADP, all he has to do is produce identically to what he did last year.
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saintfool
Dead sexy
You shouldn't. He's said over and over again that he needs more balance in the playcalling. He has said the success of the Superbowl run was predicated on the strength of the running game as much as anything. Now, do I think some of the playcalling in recent years was influenced by the atrocious defense? Absolutely. If the Saints have even a credible defense instead of playing behind then the opportunities for Ingram should increase.
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Insoxicated
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Buzzbait
Footballguy
I don't disagree with that comment. I was selfishly thinking about where I'm drafting and if Bell and Ingram were available which I'd take. Obviously Bell will get more ppg but I don't know that I like him over Ingram given the 4 game suspension. If I felt Ingram would do more than what he did last year (even just a little) I think I could be swayed to taking him over Bell.
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saintfool
Dead sexy
It has to be an improvement over last year. They have a credible d-line, upgraded the LB corps, and have depth in the backfield too. Brandon Browner is gone so that has to count for something, right?
Todem
Footballguy
Depending how a draft is going (12 team assumption here) I could easily pull the trigger on him in the late 2nd as a RB1 if I took a WR in the first. He will have a solid season health permitting. He has proven he can catch the ball out of the back field and can really see a bump in is TD numbers in the screen game. The goal line is where I pull my hair out as Payton loves to throw it a ton inside the 5. Ingram IMO could be a TD machine if they just gave it to him a little more inside the 5. He has some of the best "first 5 yard explosion in/through the hole in the league.
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psychobillies
Footballguy
I'm really worried about the injuries to Rankins and Kikaha. Granted, Rankins should be back in October, but it's gonna be hard to improve much without those guys.
But you're right about Browner. Easily the worst player I've seen in a while. Every team knew to throw at him when they needed a 1st because he would just interfere or get beat. Every time. I think our D would have been better playing with 10 guys instead of having him out there, so maybe we'll see some improvement with him gone.
saintfool
Dead sexy
Not to hijack the thread here but I think those losses are manageable. Rankins hurts, sure, but Tyler Davison has been a pleasant surprise throughout camp. He's playing ahead of Jenkins and pairs nicely with Fairley maybe. Kikaha has a great motor but mostly unproven at DE. I'm okay with Embasali opposite Jordan for now. It's not ideal but it isn't the worst D-line in the league (hello, Atlanta!) either.
To get back to Ingram, however, he's proven to be effective and the offense has to recognize that. Brees isn't what he once was but he's still better than almost every other QB in the league. He's got weapons (again) and is playing for something. Brees playing well is a rising tide, imo, but so is Ingram too. Payton just has to recognize this.
Chaka
Footballguy
He doesn't have to commit to the running game so long as he continues to using his primary back as much as he did last year. Ingram had 216 touches in 12 games (looks like he missed some time in two of those games weeks 10-11). Ingram was getting 18-19 touches/game last season. Anyone should be thrilled if their lead back has 288-304 touches on the season. When Hightower was starting he got 24 touches/game.
Nah. Barring a philsophical change, and I only believe those when I seem them on the field not when the coach says "we need more balance" during the offseason, you can expect them to run the ball between 390-410 times this year.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
not sure ... but i love the averages these RB's are getting .... when real season gets here, Ingram is going to have great stats IMO
need2know
Footballguy
I know. I drafted ingram in a couple leagues and drafted spiller once and hightower once. But agree the ruNing game should be good
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
i just picked up Spiller off the waiver wire...im leaning in his directionneed2know said:
The General
Footballguy
Spiller a healthy scratch. Looks like all the preseason hype with Spiller was hot air.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
Too bad the Saints didn't just take time off the clock by running Ingram when they were up.
Markus P Dub
Footballguy
Watched a lot of this game and NO used Cadet down inside the 5 on 3 of their series. Cadet dropped one TD and caught another. But no sign of Ingram which doesnt make sense.
The General
Footballguy
So this is what it's like to own a Saints RB 
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
There must be a few new Ingram owners in here. The same complaints that we saw last year. He will still end up a fantasy stud in PPR
johnnyboy8102
Footballguy
He is always underutilized. Some things never change.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
doesnt Ingram have a history of breaking down by the end of the year? maybe they are trying to conserve him using cadet like they did ?
need2know
Footballguy
I don't believe he's ever played all 16. But the cadet usage is just the saints. They mix it up more than most.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
It's the saints. You can't read into it that much. They'll use Ingram plenty in the red zone. Yesterday's game was a weird flow - they put it all on brees' arm. Not all games will look like this - y'all Ingram owners can put down the razor blades and sleeping pills - it's week 1.
Why can't you read into it that much? He isn't likely to change teams anytime soon, so the best owners can hope for is a coaching change, but that doesn't seem likely either.
It's amazing how many times you see the Saints throw for a bazillion yards and still lose the game. The flow was perfect for a monster game out of Ingram, but Payton screwed it up, which happens far too often.
thatguythere
Footballguy
Toward the end of the 3rd quarter I thought they were resting him for a big workload in the 4th. Guess not.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Because I had Ingram last year and there were games like this then as well.humpback said:
your statement is inaccurate: they change game plans all the time.
Ingram will get some RZ carries including at the stripe. Ingram will get plenty of receptions.
One could argue that the saints lost because they didn't feed the ball to Ingram who they had the lead. Generally smart coaches look at things like that and reevaluate. So it certainly can change without the need to replace the coach.
Was there a coaching change between last year and this that caused the saints to suddenly not run as much? I'm pretty sure there wasn't, so im not seeing your point there.
Ingram will have plenty of value this year. He's healthy, the saints will use him. Anything else is a week 1 overreaction.
its like projecting Dez Bryant's 2016 as a 16 catch season because he only had one grab yesterday.
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Not sure if you've been around under another name, but myself (and others) have been saying the same thing for years. Sean Payton has done this time after time after time. Of course it can change, but why would it when there is such a long track record? I keep hoping he'll see the light after he continues to lose games like this, but no such luck so far.
You mentioned game flow- it's hard to draw up a better flow for utilizing your stud RB than yesterday, yet Payton went away from him like he has so many times before. Heck, they even stopped throwing it to him- 2 catches for 29 yards in their 2nd drive of the game, not a single target after that. Absurd.
I owned Ingram last year as well, when he averaged ~14 cpg, yet Payton gave Hightower 21 cpg after Ingram got hurt.
I expect there to be games when Ingram only gets ~14 touches like he did yesterday. However, it shouldn't be in games that were ideal for him to get 20-25.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I was not.
We'll see what happens. Not feeling the doom and gloom. I'm still high on Ingram.Sean Payton has done this time after time after time. Of course it can change, but why would it when there is such a long track record? I keep hoping he'll see the light after he continues to lose games like this, but no such luck so far.
You mentioned game flow- it's hard to draw up a better flow for utilizing your stud RB than yesterday, yet Payton went away from him like he has so many times before. Heck, they even stopped throwing it to him- 2 catches for 29 yards in their 2nd drive of the game, not a single target after that. Absurd.
I owned Ingram last year as well, when he averaged ~14 cpg, yet Payton gave Hightower 21 cpg after Ingram got hurt.
I expect there to be games when Ingram only gets ~14 touches like he did yesterday. However, it shouldn't be in games that were ideal for him to get 20-25.
