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Mark Ingram (1 Viewer)
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
There BMIs are way different. Ingram is above average, Peterson is very far below average. Ingram is a really low level NFL RB athlete, Peterson is/was a high end athlete. Ingram is a really nice pass catcher. Peterson has always struggled with pass catching. I don't think that are all that similar.
I am not saying they are totally different, but different enough IMO
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Fair enough. Maybe we are looking at it from two different lenses - but I see them as somewhat superfluous. I do agree about Ingram's ability in the passing game, but I'm guessing they don't use him a third down back.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
It's true. Also, even if we assume they are the same player. What is wrong with that?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
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Because they will still pass the ball way more than they run it. They won't use them like Carolina did in 2008 with Williams & Stewart...which is basically the same thing.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Fair. Also, I get the redundancy argument but I think there 2 schools of thought there:
A. We want backs with different skills so we can use them in certain scenarios (like Crow and Duke)
B. We want backs that have a certain style/skill set because that's what it fits our scheme and it will allow us to use them interchangeably and keep fresh
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Yeah, but I think they are overspending to achieve "B", when they can just use Ingram more and add a rookie or a cheaper guy like Blount for depth.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
That's fair. Especially given how long AP has hung around, it seems safe to say most teams that worked him out weren't impressed. Did something impress NO?
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Might be a bit late to sell Ingram or AP (not that anyone was getting anything for AP). The news is widespread.
dmac37
Footballguy
I think the only other team he worked out for was NE, and that seemed to just be a favor for the agent.
Borden
Footballguy
Ingram was a first round pick. He's started 45 of 78 (58%) games he's played in, per Pro Football reference. Has 1 season with over 1000 rushing yards. Has never had double digit rushing TDs. Didn't have a TD catch until last year. Isn't able to keep Tim Hightower off the field. If his TDs are getting vultured, that's a pretty bad sign for a guy with his skill set. He should be the vulture.
His YPC could be high since he plays on the most pass heavy and likely teams aren't game planning with the main focus being on the run. His career average YPC is 4.4, Brandon Jacobs's is 4.5 and Chris Ivory also has 4.5.
This is my break down of him. If anyone wants to go and watch his plays and discuss him, I am all for it. I do actually enjoy discussing players and watching games and will keep an open mind...
His YPC could be high since he plays on the most pass heavy and likely teams aren't game planning with the main focus being on the run. His career average YPC is 4.4, Brandon Jacobs's is 4.5 and Chris Ivory also has 4.5.
This is my break down of him. If anyone wants to go and watch his plays and discuss him, I am all for it. I do actually enjoy discussing players and watching games and will keep an open mind...
A 6 year veteran starter with typical height/weight and a thick build. History of major and minor injuries (foot and shoulder). Thick build provides him with solid Play Strength. Gets downhill quickly when lanes are opened up. Flashes Competitive Toughness with aggressive downhill running and effective play speed. He generates enough Play Speed to pick up big chunks. Shows Finish to run over and through tacklers and to hold onto the ball through heavy contact. As a receiver, will sit down in Zone holes. Hands catcher and adjusts nicely to the ball. Pass Pro: Locates pass rusher, has the CT and Play Strength to hold ground.
Does not have enough Vision and Mental Processing to react quick enough to the blocking in front of him. Needs lanes opened up for him to sprint through. Doesn't find or press to create cut back lanes at the LOS. Doesn't have the Athletic Ability to make defenders miss unless it has been set up with a game of running through them. Tries to deke defenders too much but doesn't have the Burst to get moving around them. Doesn't have the situational awareness to understand when he needs to put his head down and run forward. Arm strength hides the fact that he doesn't use both arms to protect the ball. Inconsistent with effective (Power) running style. Lacks home run speed. Weak Burst and AA result in little route separation or YAC yards.
Overall, this is a veteran back whose unwillingness to constantly use his effective traits at this stage of his career is unacceptable. A lack of lateral agility and deep speed neutralizes his pass catching ability when projecting him as a full time 3rd Down Back. Best serves a team in a Back Up role with Spell and 3DB reps.
Does not have enough Vision and Mental Processing to react quick enough to the blocking in front of him. Needs lanes opened up for him to sprint through. Doesn't find or press to create cut back lanes at the LOS. Doesn't have the Athletic Ability to make defenders miss unless it has been set up with a game of running through them. Tries to deke defenders too much but doesn't have the Burst to get moving around them. Doesn't have the situational awareness to understand when he needs to put his head down and run forward. Arm strength hides the fact that he doesn't use both arms to protect the ball. Inconsistent with effective (Power) running style. Lacks home run speed. Weak Burst and AA result in little route separation or YAC yards.
Overall, this is a veteran back whose unwillingness to constantly use his effective traits at this stage of his career is unacceptable. A lack of lateral agility and deep speed neutralizes his pass catching ability when projecting him as a full time 3rd Down Back. Best serves a team in a Back Up role with Spell and 3DB reps.
Doubledown1313
Footballguy
Peterson sucks at pass pro, can't run out of shotgun, and is a poor receiving back.
Doesn't look too bad for Ingram in my opinion.
Doesn't look too bad for Ingram in my opinion.
I think people are really writing off Peterson way too soon. He won the rushing title in 2015, despite facing nothing but 8-man fronts, something he likely will never see in New Orleans. So he's old, so what? He's a physical freak of nature. 2016 is irrelevant, he basically didn't play at all, and when he did he was banged up behind what was easily the NFL's worst o-line.
I think its entirely possible that Peterson is the starter for the Saints. For whatever reason, Sean Payton seems to not trust Mark Ingram, he constantly pulls him for inferior talents, and those guys aren't even remotely in Peterson's league.
I don't know how any Saints fan can hate this move at all. Fantasy owners sure, but Saints fans?
I think its entirely possible that Peterson is the starter for the Saints. For whatever reason, Sean Payton seems to not trust Mark Ingram, he constantly pulls him for inferior talents, and those guys aren't even remotely in Peterson's league.
I don't know how any Saints fan can hate this move at all. Fantasy owners sure, but Saints fans?
shadyridr
Footballguy
Theyre not similar. Ingram is a better pass catcher and Peterson is better at the goal line. Good complement to each other IMO.
psychobillies
Footballguy
I think Ingram, like Cooks, might have complained his way out of town. Wouldn't be surprised to see Ingram traded before Thursday and for the Saints to take one of the top 4 or 5 backs in the draft.
Pure speculation.
Pure speculation.
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
So maybe AP becomes the power back and Ingram becomes cop and 3rd down and increases his receptions?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I agree, but NO doesn't seem to view Ingram as a third down back and I think Ingram would be a capable GL back if they gave him more of opportunity. He's powerful and compact. I'm not saying they are identical backs, just very similar in style and usage. Maybe I am overstating it a bit, but it just seems like an odd use of resources to me.
I guess I should be happy since I do not own Ingram or Peterson anywhere and this hurts both of their value making my competitors that rely on either a little weaker.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Well they did bring back Travais Cadet as well, who they seem to like in that role.
shadyridr
Footballguy
Seems like they don't trust Ingram to be there only rb and Peterson is clearly an upgrade over Hightower.
If the reports from Rapoport are true the Saints made sure that Petersons money was less than Ingrams I'd think as of right now Ingram is solidly in Saints plans.
But, now that I've had a day to digest this I think the biggest issue for the Saints is how can they both possibly be happy? Peterson might have agreed to a role today, but will he really be happy if he's playing anything close to his old level and is still playing second fiddle? If Peterson siezes the lions share of the job away then you'd set Ingram off and as we know he was already sore about his usage at times last season and in previous seasons.
That to me is the main issue for the Saints, managing both players expectations with the secondary issue making sure the offense is not predictable when Peterson is in the game. Other than that this may suck for Ingram and/or Peterson owners but it's nothing but a positive signing for the Saints and I'll laundry list the major reasons.
1. I still think Peterson can play and his injury shortened season behind atrocious OL made him a huge FA value play. He got paid a good chunk less than Lacy, give or take how you look at it in range of Woodhead, Gillislee, and Burkhead. He's less versatile than those guys but neither of them are future HOF runners either. If he's anything like he was in 2015 he's a bargain and a better FA signing for the Saints and more bang for their buck than those other RB signings. This by far trumps all other positive, or negative reasons. If last year was the aberration and age has not caught him they got a heck of a bargain. (and man I hate when people start throwing around his YPC as evidence he's lost it when he did not even get the amount of carries he normally gets in two games)
2. The fit has some negative issues, but some positives as well. It seemed odd to me at first but it's not as big a negative as initially thought because I think I read yesterday the Saints either ran 5th most plays from shotgun or 5th most rushing plays. Not sure on that stat but not as big a shotgun team as you might assume a pass happy team. Also they don't ask their RB's to pass block as much you would think. I don't have PFF any longer but I remember 2 seasons ago looking this up and they had Saints RB's pass blocking only 106 snaps all season. So not a lot of shotgun running or pass protection.
3. Saints needed a backup RB. The guy that left averaged close to 10 carries a game so it's a not tiny role and Ingram rarely plays the full 16.
4. Competition. When Ingram got angry last year Ingram got off. I doubt he's happy about this move and I also think AP is saying he's fine as 1b but when push comes to shove he'll be pushing for all he can get.
As for Ingram he might say all the right things but I'm sure he's not happy but he's got some positives to see in this. Again if Rapoport report is true it would have to make him feel appreciated that they made it a point to not give Peterson as much money as him. Secondly, and I think a lot of RB's lose focus on this issue, less wear and tear could be a huge assist to me getting that third contract when he's 29 or 30.
I'd agree in theory, but Tim Hightower shouldn't have put a dent in Ingram's fantasy production and we see how that worked out. They're paying AP too much to not use him at least as much, likely more.
I agree that he's in the Saints plans right now, but plans can change in a flash. If I'm Ingram, I say enough is enough and ask to be cut/traded.
I disagree with your last paragraph- bringing in a big name RB can't make you feel appreciated, even if you pay him a few dollars less. What would make him feel appreciated is to finally give him the reigns and let him be the workhorse. I also highly doubt he views the less wear and tear as a positive- while there might be a little truth to it, going out and putting up big numbers is more likely to get you a bigger contract (personally I think it's moot, I doubt he gets much in his next one either way). Also, he has incentives in his current deal, including one that can void his final year, but he's highly unlikely to reach them with AP on board. He has to be pissed, and rightly so IMO.
Warhogs
Footballguy
AP is still a physical beast and very unique. The issue is it's tough to rely on him staying healthy a full season. If you ask me today who will lead the Saints in rushing and I knew AP played in at least 13 games I would say AP. If you asked me who will lead the Saints in rushing with no guarantees on how many games AP plays in this becomes pretty sketchy because I can't count on AP to stay healthy. If I owned both Ingram and AP and needed to start one of them for week 1 and had to name my starter right now I would say AP.
Doug B
Footballguy
Flip those rankings and you have it ... based on what we know now.
HOFer or not, Adrian Peterson is, right now, in the "Tim Hightower" role behind Ingram until proven otherwise.
shadyridr
Footballguy
But hes still Adrian peterson and if anybody is gonna grab the bulls by the horn it will be him. Id rather have ADP regardless of where they are ranked.
Doug B
Footballguy
Gotcha, shady.
To me personally, I can't abide injury risk in fantasy football ... so it would shock the heck out of me for a 32-year-old RB to be the lead FF back for an NFL team after 16 weeks. Anything can happen, I imagine ... but I see Peterson getting hurt a lot from now going forward. The fast return from the ACL, as far as I'm concerned, was forever ago and no longer matters.
I wonder if Peterson will play in pre-season here -- huge injury risk for him to have to do that.
To me personally, I can't abide injury risk in fantasy football ... so it would shock the heck out of me for a 32-year-old RB to be the lead FF back for an NFL team after 16 weeks. Anything can happen, I imagine ... but I see Peterson getting hurt a lot from now going forward. The fast return from the ACL, as far as I'm concerned, was forever ago and no longer matters.
I wonder if Peterson will play in pre-season here -- huge injury risk for him to have to do that.
MattFancy
Footballguy
Hightower only scored 122 fps in 1 ppr last year and 48 came from receptions/receiving yards and receiving td.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Me too. The last time Adrian Peterson was healthy he put up 1,700 yards from scrimmage. I know he's two years older, but, as you said, he's freaking Adrian Peterson. He's not a normal human being.shadyridr said:
nittanylion
Footballguy
Anyone have knowledge of how 'tradeable' Ingram's contract is? No matter what the issues between him and Payton might be, he's still a commodity that has value. Are the numbers amenable to facilitating an easy trade, should they find a suitor willing to dance?
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Insoxicated
Warhogs
Footballguy
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
I hate Sean Payton so much.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Very palpable to move him. He's only $3.0M this year and $4.5M next to the new team with no guaranteed money. Saints would take a $3.8M cap hit on the trade which saves them about $1.5M on this year's cap.
They won't though, their entire philosophy is to have RBBC with two guys they feel good about having on the field.
Doug B
Footballguy
His contract is paying him about ~4-5 million per year (I think it increases mildly as the deal goes on). So, another team just has to feel comfortable with Ingram at that salary range.
I am unsure about the cap hit to the Saints, though. Don't remember his signing bonus being crazy high.
EDIT: thanks, Hankmoody, for the better detail. I was trying to go from memory.
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thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Above average. I think he will continue to be the main passing down back. The biggest hit is goalline. But they didn't like using him there anyway. Kuhn had 4 short yardage TDs last year. Ingram's production won't be much different than last year. His price right now (mid/late 2nd) is assuming the worst case scenario. That said he's 27 and doesn't have many years left.
candian fantasy guy
Footballguy
I'm going to end up with Ingram a whole bunch if he starts tumbling down the board.
