Matt Leinart - WOW (1 Viewer)

[John Mamula]

i would much rather have vince young on kickoff coverage teams than leinart.

 

[corpcow]

ride his single digit wonderlic score all the way to Madden 09

the wonderlic is hardly an iron-clad indicator of QB success. hang your hat on something that holds more weight. like your XBox console...

name a QB that came close to vince's score that has had success in the nflwonderlic doesnt = successbut i really dont want my qb to be a guy that slept through classes and basically blew off the wonderlicit shows that his character is pretty weak - maybe all the flack he recieved for blowing it off woke him up and motivated him to try harderbut c'mon - look at the successful winning qb's in the nfl - they are students of the game and tend not to be the 'super athlete'vince young has a ton of talent - but he has a LONG way to go to learn the art of QB'ing - maybe in 3 or 4 years he'll blossomim sure watching the progress of michael vick's career is def scaring me off a bit.

His development should not be compared to Vick just because he's a mobile QB. If anything, I would put him closer to Culpepper than Vick (though his college stats were not quite as lofty). First, Vick is 6'1" 215 lbs, and Young is 6'5" and 230 lbs. Second, Young was also always a better passer. Vick threw for 1,800 yards and 12 TDs in his last college year (missing 1 game to injury), while Young threw for over 3,000 and 26 TDs.

 

[sterjs]

In 3 years... I think we will have enough to say... Titans BLEW that pick or it was a sound pick or even a Great pick. But until then, this is all too new and not enough info to correctly say anything.

This is propaganda put out by halfassed draft writers that somehow everyone has come to believe as gospel. A pick is either a good pick or a bad pick when it is made.Consider Reggie Bush, there is a finite probability that he suffers a career ending injury in his first season, if he does, that doesn't make him a bad pick, it just means he hit the wrong part of the probability distribution. The same goes for Tom Brady--while he may have been a good value pick, i.e. if he had been evaluated properly he may have been graded in the 4th round--just because he hit the best part of his probability distribution doesn't mean he is the greatest draft pick ever.

 

[John Mamula]

ride his single digit wonderlic score all the way to Madden 09

the wonderlic is hardly an iron-clad indicator of QB success. hang your hat on something that holds more weight. like your XBox console...

name a QB that came close to vince's score that has had success in the nflwonderlic doesnt = successbut i really dont want my qb to be a guy that slept through classes and basically blew off the wonderlicit shows that his character is pretty weak - maybe all the flack he recieved for blowing it off woke him up and motivated him to try harderbut c'mon - look at the successful winning qb's in the nfl - they are students of the game and tend not to be the 'super athlete'vince young has a ton of talent - but he has a LONG way to go to learn the art of QB'ing - maybe in 3 or 4 years he'll blossomim sure watching the progress of michael vick's career is def scaring me off a bit.

His development should not be compared to Vick just because he's a mobile QB. If anything, I would put him closer to Culpepper than Vick (though his college stats were not quite as lofty). First, Vick is 6'1" 215 lbs, and Young is 6'5" and 230 lbs. Second, Young was also always a better passer. Vick threw for 1,800 yards and 12 TDs in his last college year (missing 1 game to injury), while Young threw for over 3,000 and 26 TDs.

vick also played against florida st and other top schools...VY played against baylor and northeastwest texas st.

 

[metoo]

I still chuckle when I think Vince Young was taken before him. The Titans will regret that for a loooonnnngggg time.

Last I checked, Vince Young already won a game this season.

To be fair, Travis Henry won that game.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Texas is suddenly seeing a dropoff in their running game while Tennessee has experienced a sharp upswing running the ball since Young has taken the helm?Why does every post that praises Young or Leinart have to turn into knocking down one to elevate the other? They've both looked good at times and like rookies at times. Imagine that...rookies looking like rookies. They'll both be great in the long run, imho.I think both of these teams are and will be very happy with their selections, and I think each was the best selection for the given situation.

 

[corpcow]

anyone else think this is just a **wee** bit premature??? it's 2 games, people. saying things like "i thought he was the best guy in the draft" and such is a pretty easy comment to make after he looks good this week.

don't get me wrong, i have him in a dynasty league and i love having him, but lets just relax a little here. it's WAAAAY too early to say leinert is/was the best QB in the draft class when we haven't seen what Cutler can do, and nor have we seen what vince can really do yet.

hell, in 1999 people were probably saying "wow, the Browns really made the right call with Tim Couch... he looks way better than McNabb..."

Leinert has looked good, def better than advertised. but no one cares who Jimmy Joe from Nashville thought was a better QB in the draft. fact is, even Gradkowski should be mentioned as among the best rookie QBs this season, and he hasn't been.

ok, rant over.

Gradkowski has looked very good - and putting up similar numbers - and was WELL behind all of them in draft position.

The other thing to remember is that Young was picked for his upside. No one ever said Young was going to be better now - most had him sitting all year. And Leinart was of course widely acknowledged as being the most "NFL ready" of the top 3.

So it should not be a surprise that Leinart looks better today. The real question is who is going to improve more and who is going to be better 3 years from now.

 

[corpcow]

First, Vick is 6'1" 215 lbs, and Young is 6'5" and 230 lbs. Second, Young was also always a better passer. Vick threw for 1,800 yards and 12 TDs in his last college year (missing 1 game to injury), while Young threw for over 3,000 and 26 TDs.

vick also played against florida st and other top schools...VY played against baylor and northeastwest texas st.

The point is that Young also makes at least a secondary read before he runs, while Vick has always relied heavily on his legs. That's always been a big criticism of Vick - if the primary receiver isn't open he just runs. He was 18/29 for 2702/2T against Ohio State and 15/30 for 239/2/1 against Oklahoma State. Do you consider either a "top school"?Was USC a "top school"? He completed 30 of 40 for 267 yards against them (though no TDs). To be fair, he also ran 20 times for 200 yds and 3 TDs.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

wait for a few years is sound advice in terms of real football...

but that advice doesn't work in the context of fantasy world... he who spots trends earlier should be at an advantage... for things like start-up dynasty drafts & acquiring in trade in established leagues...

its not just that leinart looks better than advertised (he does)... but those who are taking wait & see stance are probably coming from historical place, almost out of rote habit... & historically, it can be hard to get a read on how entire career will unfold after two games (obviously)...

but part of history has to be thrown away... of all the rookie QBs that have ever played, in how many of them was there a confluence of having one of the winningest QBs in NCAA history throwing to the NFL record holders for most reception in first two (fitz) & three (boldin) seasons...

while it is too early to "KNOW" how leinart's career will unfold in meaningful sense, our job in forecasting involves a world shaped by probabilities, not certainties... & leinart's future can't be evaluated in a vacuum... the fact that he has fitz & boldin going for him HAS to be factored into any thorough evaluation...and its hard to not like that going forward... since he was compared to manning for his football smarts & NFL readiness... & since he has two stud WRs like manning (harrison & wayne), maybe that is the most applicable & relevant comp player/situation...

some of doubts about with leinart were team context related... the horrific OL would be a massive problem, & not even manning could do well behind it... but that seems to have been answered to an extent... on top of having football smarts, leadership, cool under fire, accuracy & touch... he has a lightning quick release which will neutralize & defeat the blitz & enable him to counter poor OL play by quickly distributing ball & getting it in hands of his playmakers...

check out his release time on the boldin TD...

 

[Gargoylez]

In 3 years... I think we will have enough to say... Titans BLEW that pick or it was a sound pick or even a Great pick. But until then, this is all too new and not enough info to correctly say anything.

This is propaganda put out by halfassed draft writers that somehow everyone has come to believe as gospel. A pick is either a good pick or a bad pick when it is made.Consider Reggie Bush, there is a finite probability that he suffers a career ending injury in his first season, if he does, that doesn't make him a bad pick, it just means he hit the wrong part of the probability distribution. The same goes for Tom Brady--while he may have been a good value pick, i.e. if he had been evaluated properly he may have been graded in the 4th round--just because he hit the best part of his probability distribution doesn't mean he is the greatest draft pick ever.

You dont make any sense.To evaluate a draft pick, you can't judge it that second, its like knowing the lottery numbers before they pick. You have to see how they do over the course a set timeline to truly say, that was a great pick, good scouting, etc.

To get a hall of fame QB in the 6th round?

To me... might be the top 3 pick of all time in NFL history... Maybe Im just crazy.

 

[John Mamula]

First, Vick is 6'1" 215 lbs, and Young is 6'5" and 230 lbs. Second, Young was also always a better passer. Vick threw for 1,800 yards and 12 TDs in his last college year (missing 1 game to injury), while Young threw for over 3,000 and 26 TDs.

vick also played against florida st and other top schools...VY played against baylor and northeastwest texas st.

Young also makes a secondary read before he runs. One of Vick's criticisms has always been that if the primary receiver isn't open he just runs. Young, by contrast, seems to be a mobile QB who uses the threat to pass, not relying on just his legs. He was 18/29 for 2702/2T against Ohio State and 15/30 for 239/2/1 against Oklahoma State. Was USC a "top school"? He completed 30 of 40 for 267 yards against them (though no TDs). To be fair, he also ran 20 times for 200 yds and 3 TDs.

USC was 73rd in pass defense.

 

[Gargoylez]

First, Vick is 6'1" 215 lbs, and Young is 6'5" and 230 lbs. Second, Young was also always a better passer. Vick threw for 1,800 yards and 12 TDs in his last college year (missing 1 game to injury), while Young threw for over 3,000 and 26 TDs.

vick also played against florida st and other top schools...VY played against baylor and northeastwest texas st.

Young also makes a secondary read before he runs. One of Vick's criticisms has always been that if the primary receiver isn't open he just runs. Young, by contrast, seems to be a mobile QB who uses the threat to pass, not relying on just his legs. He was 18/29 for 2702/2T against Ohio State and 15/30 for 239/2/1 against Oklahoma State. Was USC a "top school"? He completed 30 of 40 for 267 yards against them (though no TDs). To be fair, he also ran 20 times for 200 yds and 3 TDs.

I read that Young was a one read QB in college. If the primary was not open he should run. Whether or not thats true I dont know but Ill tell you this... Leinart is much more NFL ready then Young is... I dont think its a secret that Young needs more time to develop... but in the long run it doesnt make him lesser of a QB.

 

[LHUCKS]

LOL at all the guppies just now getting on the Leinart bandwagon...that's why you suck at ff...always behind the guys that are in the know.

 

[corpcow]

Was USC a "top school"? He completed 30 of 40 for 267 yards against them (though no TDs). To be fair, he also ran 20 times for 200 yds and 3 TDs.

USC was 73rd in pass defense.

Of course, that's skewed in part because their offense was so good, so people had to pass to try to keep up. But anyway, that's besides the point. The point I'm trying to make is that looking at their college careers, Young generally passes on a greater percentage of his plays. Watching him play, you can definitely at least seem him make a progression in his reads before he takes off. And back to my original point - just because he can run, he shouldn't be compared to Vick.Oh and where are you finding the pass defense ratings? I'm willing to bet Akron, East Carolina Temple and Rutgers weren't so good in 2000... unless they just got blown out and no one had to pass.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

LOL at all the guppies just now getting on the Leinart bandwagon...that's why you suck at ff...always behind the guys that are in the know.

By definition, shouldn't you stay out of a thread that says "No Hype Zone"?

 

[Banger]

LOL at all the guppies just now getting on the Leinart bandwagon...that's why you suck at ff...always behind the guys that are in the know.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

i fyou think pete carrol's Defense - which everyone knew couldnt touch the talent he had the year before can even slightly compare to a true NFL D - you are really off base

I don't believe that and I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the conventional wisdom was that there was no way he could overcome Carroll's NFL type defensive scheming, disguised coverages, etc, which had been baiting supposedly superior qbs into throwing pick after pick all season long. Didn't happen. He read the D, took what was there, and picked them apart all night long.

c'mon the leap to the NFL is so much harder to make

And? Never said it wasn't.

and Vince won that game w/ his legs not his arm

If you look at it superficially, I suppose it would appear that way. Young accounted for 467 yards and 3 tds that night. All anyone seems to remember are the 200 rushing yards and 3 rush tds...not the 267 yards on 30 of 40 passing. Sure, Young scored three tds with his feet, but he kept the D off balance all night with the pass. He never woulda had those running lanes available if the SC D wasn't forced to respect the passing game a great deal. Had they walked Bing up closer and concentrated more on the stopping the run and Young's running in particular, Texas would have made bigger plays on them through the air. They did that against better defenses earlier in the season. There's no reason to think they wouldn't have done the same there. SC chose to stay with deeper, disguised coverages, trying to bait and fool Young into a mistake. He never took the bait.

Bottom line...he beat them with his arm and his legs because they were forced to honor both. They tried to play a balanced defense and accordingly could never really take any one thing away.

you gotta beat people w/ your arm in the NFL to win...unless you are a believer in the michael vick style of QB'ing which will get you a sweet Nike contract at least..

He's doing that already. He's not killing people so much running the ball.He's not like Mike Vick, except, again, if you're only taking a superficial look.

 

[corpcow]

wait for a few years is sound advice in terms of real football...but that advice doesn't work in the context of fantasy world... he who spots trends earlier should be at an advantage... for things like start-up dynasty drafts & acquiring in trade in established leagues...its not just that leinart looks better than advertised (he does)... but those who are taking wait & see stance are probably coming from historical place, almost out of rote habit... & historically, it can be hard to get a read on how entire career will unfold after two games (obviously)...

Actually, this discussion has been mostly about "real" football, because I don't think they make draft picks to help your fantasy team.Most of the Young vs. Leinart comparison was spurred by this comment:

I still chuckle when I think Vince Young was taken before him. The Titans will regret that for a loooonnnngggg time.

I'm not a Young fan or a Leinart fan, and I don't doubt that either will be good in this league. All I'm saying is that the comparison we're making today is faulty because it was widely acknowledged before the fact that Leinar was more ready NOW. Young was picked for his long-term potential. If you want to know who was going to be the better QB AS A ROOKIE, it's probably Leinart, but then Tenn knew that when they made the pick. Young was picked for his long-term potential - they felt the ceiling was higher than with Leinart. In dynasty leagues, you're making the same bet. Young has more risk but, it's being argued, potentially higher reward (yes, especially in the fantasy context if he's running like Vick AND able to consistently put up good passing #s).

 

[LHUCKS]

LOL at all the guppies just now getting on the Leinart bandwagon...that's why you suck at ff...always behind the guys that are in the know.

By definition, shouldn't you stay out of a thread that says "No Hype Zone"?

what exactly does calling out the bandwagoners have to do with hype?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

LOL at all the guppies just now getting on the Leinart bandwagon...that's why you suck at ff...always behind the guys that are in the know.

By definition, shouldn't you stay out of a thread that says "No Hype Zone"?

what exactly does calling out the bandwagoners have to do with hype?

LOL, so someone is a bandwagoner if they don't agree with your fantasy football insights from the very beginning? Come on, are you real?

 

[slickwillie]

im not ready to anoint this guy the be all end all at this point. when i go back over his performance, i think he played really well, and did what was asked of him. for the most part that meant dumping the ball in the flat or in the first half hitting his wr with a quick pass right after the snap. he only had 2-3 good throws beyond 10 yds, so i guess what im trying to say is that he managed the game well, i dont consider that he really made many plays himself ( the one he did that comes to mind was the crossing pattern in the first quarter when facing the blitz ), i would instead say that his O-Line played really in pass protection to allow his wr to spread the field for the underneath to open up, and also that his wr made some nice runs after the catch, breaking tackles and the such. his strength was grossman's weakness, he followed the gameplan and didnt get greedy. both of his td catches were as much, if not more, good runs after the catch by his wr.

gonna be a good one, but lets just ease off the "this guy is it...." throttle a bit.

 

[LHUCKS]

LOL at all the guppies just now getting on the Leinart bandwagon...that's why you suck at ff...always behind the guys that are in the know.

By definition, shouldn't you stay out of a thread that says "No Hype Zone"?

what exactly does calling out the bandwagoners have to do with hype?

LOL, so someone is a bandwagoner if they don't agree with your fantasy football insights from the very beginning?

Yep, in this instance they are bandwagoners...it should've been apparent long ago.

 

[sterjs]

You dont make any sense.

To evaluate a draft pick, you can't judge it that second, its like knowing the lottery numbers before they pick. You have to see how they do over the course a set timeline to truly say, that was a great pick, good scouting, etc.

If I win the lottery, am I better at picking lottery numbers than you? No. The same thing applies to NFL scouting. If the guy at 1(1) picks a bust and I pick a HOFer at 1(2), it doesn't mean that I am better at scouting than he was or even that I made a better choice. It does mean that on average I will be(see Bayes Theorem.), but that's it. If you wanted to evaluate how good a scouting department is, you'd have to look at it over a large sample size.

To get a hall of fame QB in the 6th round?

To me... might be the top 3 pick of all time in NFL history... Maybe Im just crazy.

It may have been a top 3 result of all time, but it wasn't a top 3 pick. An example of what I would consider one of the greatest picks ever is the Cowboys drafting Roger Staubuch in the 10th round. They knew they were getting a great player even though he'd serve in the Navy for four years, and they knew that the other teams were scared off by that and thus they were able to get maximum value for their pick.

Another great choice was the Pittsburgh Steelers selecting John Stallworth. He was a defensive back at Alabama A&M and the other teams didn't scout small schools as well as the Steelers did. The Steelers took advantage of an inefficiency in how other teams capitalized and they were rewarded with an excellent player.

Another great choice was Drew Henson in the 6th round--the Texans saw that there was a decent chance that he would leave baseball and they were able to convert their 6th rounder into a 2nd rounder. Note that that wouldn't always be the result, but since a 2nd rounder is approx. 20x more valuable than a 6th rounder, they only have to succeed about 5% of the time.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

LOL at all the guppies just now getting on the Leinart bandwagon...that's why you suck at ff...always behind the guys that are in the know.

By definition, shouldn't you stay out of a thread that says "No Hype Zone"?

what exactly does calling out the bandwagoners have to do with hype?

LOL, so someone is a bandwagoner if they don't agree with your fantasy football insights from the very beginning?

Yep, in this instance they are a bandwagoners...it should've been apparent long ago.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Or at least I agree to disagree with you. I don't think it was apparent that Leinart would be as good in the NFL as in college, and I question whether 2 games are enough to make that assertion.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

ride his single digit wonderlic score all the way to Madden 09

the wonderlic is hardly an iron-clad indicator of QB success. hang your hat on something that holds more weight. like your XBox console...

name a QB that came close to vince's score that has had success in the nflwonderlic doesnt = successbut i really dont want my qb to be a guy that slept through classes and basically blew off the wonderlicit shows that his character is pretty weak - maybe all the flack he recieved for blowing it off woke him up and motivated him to try harderbut c'mon - look at the successful winning qb's in the nfl - they are students of the game and tend not to be the 'super athlete'vince young has a ton of talent - but he has a LONG way to go to learn the art of QB'ing - maybe in 3 or 4 years he'll blossomim sure watching the progress of michael vick's career is def scaring me off a bit.

His development should not be compared to Vick just because he's a mobile QB. If anything, I would put him closer to Culpepper than Vick (though his college stats were not quite as lofty). First, Vick is 6'1" 215 lbs, and Young is 6'5" and 230 lbs. Second, Young was also always a better passer. Vick threw for 1,800 yards and 12 TDs in his last college year (missing 1 game to injury), while Young threw for over 3,000 and 26 TDs.

vick also played against florida st and other top schools...VY played against baylor and northeastwest texas st.

Yeah, Vick played Florida St once (L), and Miami twice (W, L)...in two seasons he also played Akron, James Madison, UCF, UAB, East Carolina, Rutgers x 2, Temple x 2. Everyone plays weak sisters. Get over it.Young also played and beat Michigan, Oklahoma (L, W), Ohio State, and USC.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

wait for a few years is sound advice in terms of real football...but that advice doesn't work in the context of fantasy world... he who spots trends earlier should be at an advantage... for things like start-up dynasty drafts & acquiring in trade in established leagues...its not just that leinart looks better than advertised (he does)... but those who are taking wait & see stance are probably coming from historical place, almost out of rote habit... & historically, it can be hard to get a read on how entire career will unfold after two games (obviously)...

Actually, this discussion has been mostly about "real" football, because I don't think they make draft picks to help your fantasy team.Most of the Young vs. Leinart comparison was spurred by this comment:

I still chuckle when I think Vince Young was taken before him. The Titans will regret that for a loooonnnngggg time.

I'm not a Young fan or a Leinart fan, and I don't doubt that either will be good in this league. All I'm saying is that the comparison we're making today is faulty because it was widely acknowledged before the fact that Leinar was more ready NOW. Young was picked for his long-term potential. If you want to know who was going to be the better QB AS A ROOKIE, it's probably Leinart, but then Tenn knew that when they made the pick. Young was picked for his long-term potential - they felt the ceiling was higher than with Leinart. In dynasty leagues, you're making the same bet. Young has more risk but, it's being argued, potentially higher reward (yes, especially in the fantasy context if he's running like Vick AND able to consistently put up good passing #s).

Post of the thread.

 

[gocats]

Win

It may be early, well very early, but with Fitz and Boldin in tow, Leinart is going to have the chance to be a HOF QB, if his team can start picking up the slack, of course. The guy was amazing last night.

now this is definitely early....

True...but Leinart is obviously special, rookie QB's simply don't do what he did last night...the early bird gets the worm...

what, lose? rookie QBs find ways to lose all the time.now that is not to pin the loss on Leinert... i hardly think he deserves much if any of the blame... but i seem to remember a guy named Roethlisberger coming in and putting on quite a different show early on. hell, even Gradkowski looks like a HOFer by this definition.

I think leinart knows a thing or two about how to Win

 

[-OZ-]

wait for a few years is sound advice in terms of real football...but that advice doesn't work in the context of fantasy world... he who spots trends earlier should be at an advantage... for things like start-up dynasty drafts & acquiring in trade in established leagues...its not just that leinart looks better than advertised (he does)... but those who are taking wait & see stance are probably coming from historical place, almost out of rote habit... & historically, it can be hard to get a read on how entire career will unfold after two games (obviously)...

Actually, this discussion has been mostly about "real" football, because I don't think they make draft picks to help your fantasy team.Most of the Young vs. Leinart comparison was spurred by this comment:

I still chuckle when I think Vince Young was taken before him. The Titans will regret that for a loooonnnngggg time.

I'm not a Young fan or a Leinart fan, and I don't doubt that either will be good in this league. All I'm saying is that the comparison we're making today is faulty because it was widely acknowledged before the fact that Leinar was more ready NOW. Young was picked for his long-term potential. If you want to know who was going to be the better QB AS A ROOKIE, it's probably Leinart, but then Tenn knew that when they made the pick. Young was picked for his long-term potential - they felt the ceiling was higher than with Leinart. In dynasty leagues, you're making the same bet. Young has more risk but, it's being argued, potentially higher reward (yes, especially in the fantasy context if he's running like Vick AND able to consistently put up good passing #s).

Post of the thread.

Ironically, I am a fan of both, and corpcow seems to have hit it on the head. Just my gut feeling, but both will win their share of games, but VY = highlight reel, Leinart = coaching tapes. Both have top 5 FF potential, although Leinart is more likely to reach it.

 

[belyeapower]

First, Vick is 6'1" 215 lbs, and Young is 6'5" and 230 lbs. Second, Young was also always a better passer. Vick threw for 1,800 yards and 12 TDs in his last college year (missing 1 game to injury), while Young threw for over 3,000 and 26 TDs.

vick also played against florida st and other top schools...VY played against baylor and northeastwest texas st.

Young also makes a secondary read before he runs. One of Vick's criticisms has always been that if the primary receiver isn't open he just runs. Young, by contrast, seems to be a mobile QB who uses the threat to pass, not relying on just his legs. He was 18/29 for 2702/2T against Ohio State and 15/30 for 239/2/1 against Oklahoma State. Was USC a "top school"? He completed 30 of 40 for 267 yards against them (though no TDs). To be fair, he also ran 20 times for 200 yds and 3 TDs.

USC was 73rd in pass defense.

EGG ZACHARYb/c he beat USC in the title game that doesnt mean much - their D was a shadow of what it was prior years

 

[belyeapower]

wait for a few years is sound advice in terms of real football...but that advice doesn't work in the context of fantasy world... he who spots trends earlier should be at an advantage... for things like start-up dynasty drafts & acquiring in trade in established leagues...its not just that leinart looks better than advertised (he does)... but those who are taking wait & see stance are probably coming from historical place, almost out of rote habit... & historically, it can be hard to get a read on how entire career will unfold after two games (obviously)...

Actually, this discussion has been mostly about "real" football, because I don't think they make draft picks to help your fantasy team.Most of the Young vs. Leinart comparison was spurred by this comment:

I still chuckle when I think Vince Young was taken before him. The Titans will regret that for a loooonnnngggg time.

I'm not a Young fan or a Leinart fan, and I don't doubt that either will be good in this league. All I'm saying is that the comparison we're making today is faulty because it was widely acknowledged before the fact that Leinar was more ready NOW. Young was picked for his long-term potential. If you want to know who was going to be the better QB AS A ROOKIE, it's probably Leinart, but then Tenn knew that when they made the pick. Young was picked for his long-term potential - they felt the ceiling was higher than with Leinart. In dynasty leagues, you're making the same bet. Young has more risk but, it's being argued, potentially higher reward (yes, especially in the fantasy context if he's running like Vick AND able to consistently put up good passing #s).

Post of the thread.

Ironically, I am a fan of both, and corpcow seems to have hit it on the head. Just my gut feeling, but both will win their share of games, but VY = highlight reel, Leinart = coaching tapes. Both have top 5 FF potential, although Leinart is more likely to reach it.

fair enough - but who wouldnt prefer the leinart 'coaching tapes' as you refer to him style as oppsed to a guy made for sportscenter highlightsits like asking if youd want vince carter or steve nash - vince will show up on posters w/ his dunks but nash will make his team better and win more

 

[the hairy scotsman]

wait for a few years is sound advice in terms of real football...but that advice doesn't work in the context of fantasy world... he who spots trends earlier should be at an advantage... for things like start-up dynasty drafts & acquiring in trade in established leagues...its not just that leinart looks better than advertised (he does)... but those who are taking wait & see stance are probably coming from historical place, almost out of rote habit... & historically, it can be hard to get a read on how entire career will unfold after two games (obviously)...

Actually, this discussion has been mostly about "real" football, because I don't think they make draft picks to help your fantasy team.Most of the Young vs. Leinart comparison was spurred by this comment:

I still chuckle when I think Vince Young was taken before him. The Titans will regret that for a loooonnnngggg time.

I'm not a Young fan or a Leinart fan, and I don't doubt that either will be good in this league. All I'm saying is that the comparison we're making today is faulty because it was widely acknowledged before the fact that Leinar was more ready NOW. Young was picked for his long-term potential. If you want to know who was going to be the better QB AS A ROOKIE, it's probably Leinart, but then Tenn knew that when they made the pick. Young was picked for his long-term potential - they felt the ceiling was higher than with Leinart. In dynasty leagues, you're making the same bet. Young has more risk but, it's being argued, potentially higher reward (yes, especially in the fantasy context if he's running like Vick AND able to consistently put up good passing #s).

Post of the thread.

Ironically, I am a fan of both, and corpcow seems to have hit it on the head. Just my gut feeling, but both will win their share of games, but VY = highlight reel, Leinart = coaching tapes. Both have top 5 FF potential, although Leinart is more likely to reach it.

fair enough - but who wouldnt prefer the leinart 'coaching tapes' as you refer to him style as oppsed to a guy made for sportscenter highlightsits like asking if youd want vince carter or steve nash - vince will show up on posters w/ his dunks but nash will make his team better and win more

I think both will make their teams better and win more than most qbs. Young has already had an impact in both the running and passing game and as a team leader on and off the field, and has led a second-half, winning comeback from an 11-point deficit. The team has looked more motivated under his leadership, like they're having more fun...just playing football like they did when they were kids. It's like deja vu all over again. Young brings an unsurpassed love for the game. As impressive as Young's physical game is, his most important attributes are his intangible qualities as a leader and motivator on the field...this point cannot be overestimated.Leinart has already made his team better by stopping the hemorrhage of turnovers from the qb position and by distributing the ball quite efficiently to his stable of big-play wrs. As (I think) Theesman was saying last night, he has stabilized the position. God, I hate agreeing with that a**hat. Leinart brings fire and passion which the Cards seemed lacking.They are very different qbs and very different leaders, but are both very likeable and very effective in their own unique ways. Why is this so hard for so many to accept?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

fair enough - but who wouldnt prefer the leinart 'coaching tapes' as you refer to him style as oppsed to a guy made for sportscenter highlights

The Tennessee Titans, apparently...and not because they don't value Leinart's attributes, but apparently because it came down to "upside" vs "NFL-ready". The rest of their team isn't really ready. They're rebuilding, so why not build a qb with great upside along with that rebuilding process. The Cardinals, otoh, are much closer to being competitve, so why not take Leinart, who is very ready, right now, to step into a pro-style offense.They're both very good fits.

Every year, people forget the single most important thing about the draft...it's about the need(s) of the team on the clock.

 

[Bob_Magaw]

wait for a few years is sound advice in terms of real football...but that advice doesn't work in the context of fantasy world... he who spots trends earlier should be at an advantage... for things like start-up dynasty drafts & acquiring in trade in established leagues...its not just that leinart looks better than advertised (he does)... but those who are taking wait & see stance are probably coming from historical place, almost out of rote habit... & historically, it can be hard to get a read on how entire career will unfold after two games (obviously)...

Actually, this discussion has been mostly about "real" football, because I don't think they make draft picks to help your fantasy team.Most of the Young vs. Leinart comparison was spurred by this comment:

I still chuckle when I think Vince Young was taken before him. The Titans will regret that for a loooonnnngggg time.

I'm not a Young fan or a Leinart fan, and I don't doubt that either will be good in this league. All I'm saying is that the comparison we're making today is faulty because it was widely acknowledged before the fact that Leinar was more ready NOW. Young was picked for his long-term potential. If you want to know who was going to be the better QB AS A ROOKIE, it's probably Leinart, but then Tenn knew that when they made the pick. Young was picked for his long-term potential - they felt the ceiling was higher than with Leinart. In dynasty leagues, you're making the same bet. Young has more risk but, it's being argued, potentially higher reward (yes, especially in the fantasy context if he's running like Vick AND able to consistently put up good passing #s).

threads are rarely exclusively about actual football... they often have some overlap & intersection with fantasy concerns... which is why we post, read & respond to them on a fantasy football board... you concluded your post with a dynasty reference... i wasn't comparing leinart to VY (he isn't referenced anywhere in my post above)...but since you brought it up... i still think the leinart has higher floor but VY has higher ceiling (standard)characterization on the surface doesn't take into account the weapons arrayed around them... with fitz & boldin, imo leinart has the higher ceiling...don't get me wrong... i have respect for VYs game... but i also have a healthy respect, awe, even, for the weapons leinart has in the passing game... if leinart had gone to TEN & VY to ARI, i was prepared to take VY...we don't have to wait a couple years to say fitz & boldin are spectacular... we do have to wait and see what kind of weapons TEN surrounds VY with... not sure if current WRs are long term answer... & if they are, they pale in comparison in talent dept...* i agree with those that say c-pepp probably better comp player than vick for VY... but lets not forget who c-pepp had to thow to... moss & carter one of best WR tandems in NFL history (as no doubt are fitzgerald & boldin... NFL record holders for most receptions first two & three seasons, respectively)... & look at c-pepp now... he does have the knee injury to account for his poor performance in 06... but that argument/excuse collapses as a rationale for his looking horrific in 05... BEFORE his injury...

 

[the hairy scotsman]

don't get me wrong... i have respect for VYs game... but i also have a healthy respect, awe, even, for the weapons leinart has in the passing game... if leinart had gone to TEN & VY to ARI, i was prepared to take VY...

As a VY fan, I was praying he'd go to AZ or Denver.

 

[Hawk]

I thought both Vince and Matt played well this week. Vince made some great throws, including an awesome pass on 4th down with a pass rusher right in his face that set up Henry's go ahead TD. That play showed that Vince can clearly read defenses some as he could not even see the WR he was throwing to when he let the pass go. On the other hand, Matt played extremely well for a rookie against an outstanding defense (a lot better than Grossman played...ugh).

Some of this discussion is just silly. To the surprise of absolutely NOBODY, Leinart is ahead of Young right now as far as being NFL ready. I mean who could have predicted that? (Besides EVERY SINGLE analyst and talking head out there.) But Vince has been playing fairly well for a rookie on a bad team, and he contributed significantly to the Titan's first win this week.

They're both good. If Vince develops as a true dual threat QB in the NFL, he could be better in the long run. If he doesn't, then Leinart could be better in the long run. Should be fun to watch.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Not so good today.

 

[Disco Stu]

My fault. I traded for Leinart this week.

I've had the magic touch this season. Drafted Brooks, then traded for Culpepper... been starting Huard lately, but cut him and Walter this week to make room for Matt "The Savior" Leinart.

 

[Despyzer]

Not so good today.

I would have rathered that you had bumped LHucks' "Leinart is better than Rivers" thread.

 

[gocats]

Leinart cant do everything, Denny green should be fired

 

[wilked]

nip

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Matt Leinart

50.6 COMP%, 212 YPG, 1.25 TD/G, 1 INT/G

Vince Young

45.5 COMP%, 145.5 YPC, 1.16 TD/G, 1 INT/G