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Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter David Dodds
- Start date
wilked
Footballguy
Turbines are in the turbine bldg, well away from the reactor bldg. Anything in the reactor bldg has to be contained within ridiculously thick walls. In addition, anything in there is (by definition) radioactive, so doing maintenance is all of a sudden a huuuuge PITA. In other words, unless it absolutely has to be in the reactor bldg, it is not put in there.
You have it backwards on circulation, there are fail safes in order to maintain circulation. Without circulation you have meltdown. The rods have to be constantly cooled by water flowing through / over them. Now, you can slow the nuclear release (ie heating) by surrounding the nuclear fuel with graphite rods (which can be lowered / raised to control heat rate). The graphite acts as a moderator that slows down / absorbs neutrons being released. It appears that there may have been a problem with this mechanism for these two reactors.
You have it backwards on circulation, there are fail safes in order to maintain circulation. Without circulation you have meltdown. The rods have to be constantly cooled by water flowing through / over them. Now, you can slow the nuclear release (ie heating) by surrounding the nuclear fuel with graphite rods (which can be lowered / raised to control heat rate). The graphite acts as a moderator that slows down / absorbs neutrons being released. It appears that there may have been a problem with this mechanism for these two reactors.
wilked
Footballguy
No need for nukes out here when you can almost literally drop a straw in the ground and drink oil for power...By the way, filled up my gas tank with 50 cent / gallon oil today, less than $7 to fill my Camry from empty
Edit to add: No need for nukes for power generation 
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Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
By the way, filled up my gas tank with 50 cent / gallon oil today, less than $7 to fill my Camry from empty
wilked
Footballguy
Way past my bedtime...I will wrap it up by saying I am no expert and might have some of the above wrong (Pickles will let me know), but hopefully helped paint the picture a bit. There seem to be two opinions on far ends in this thread, my opinion is somewhere in-between. I do think there are a lot of people (Greenpeace, for instance) going into hysterics over this, playing it up to be worse than it is. But it is a real and serious threat, and 'pumping seawater over it' is not a longterm solution. This problem will not go away, nuclear half lives are not short. This is a big problem for both Japan and the nuclear industry as a whole. What pisses me off as an engineer is the generator not working. This thing has got to be tested monthly, and if it was not then people should go to jail. Something doesn't add up for me, but obviously I am working with a very partial picture / facts
Check out VenezuelaBy the way, filled up my gas tank with 50 cent / gallon oil today, less than $7 to fill my Camry from empty
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
:headexplode:So, uhm, maybe I'll get on board with the pro-drilling in Alaska crowd.Check out VenezuelaBy the way, filled up my gas tank with 50 cent / gallon oil today, less than $7 to fill my Camry from empty
Leviathan
Footballguy
Iran can't possibly be lying!No need for nukes out here when you can almost literally drop a straw in the ground and drink oil for power...Edit to add: No need for nukes for power generation
timschochet
Footballguy
CNN announcing that the IAEA and Japan says the containment has not failed- this is good news, no?
timschochet
Footballguy
From Greenpeace (It's pretty scary stuff):Our thoughts are with our colleagues, friends and all the people of Japan as they continue to deal with the aftereffects of yesterday’s earthquake and tsunami. We are tracking the developments at Japan's nuclear plants as they race to try to avoid a meltdown.
Nuclear plants like the one at Fukushima were never designed to withstand a meltdown of the reactor core and wont. This is an excerpt from our Greenpeace Report : American Chernobyl:
The MYTH of CONTAINMENT:
For a reactor accident to have Chernobyl like consequences a meltdown must be accompanied by containment failure. Unfortunately the term “containment” belies the facts. The public interest community has long been aware that the containments around many of the US reactors are more myth than reality.
As early as 1971, government regulators knew that the public’s last line of defense against the radiation, the reactor containment, was virtually worthless yet licensed the General Electric (GE) and Westinghouse Ice Condenser reactors anyway. When an Atomic Energy Commission’s (AEC) staff member suggested that this type of containment design be banned in the U.S. the AEC’s deputy director for technical review responded that it “could well be the end of nuclear power. It would throw into question the continued operation of licensed plants, could make unlicensable the GE and Westinghouse ice condenser plants now in review and would generally create more turmoil than I can think about.” (See Appendix B.)
Of course the nuclear bureaucrats did not want to reveal the truth about the fallibility of the nuclear reactors they had already licensed as “safe” and attempted to withhold the information from the public.
Only though the efforts of the Union of Concerned Scientists, their attorneys and those at Public Citizen did the information eventually come to light under the Freedom of Information Act.
In 1986 Harold Denton, former director of NRC's Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, again acknowledged this vulnerability while speaking to utilities executives at Brookhaven National Laboratory. Denton noted that, according to NRC studies the GE Mark I reactors had “something like a 90% probability of that containment failing."
Nuclear plants like the one at Fukushima were never designed to withstand a meltdown of the reactor core and wont. This is an excerpt from our Greenpeace Report : American Chernobyl:
The MYTH of CONTAINMENT:
For a reactor accident to have Chernobyl like consequences a meltdown must be accompanied by containment failure. Unfortunately the term “containment” belies the facts. The public interest community has long been aware that the containments around many of the US reactors are more myth than reality.
As early as 1971, government regulators knew that the public’s last line of defense against the radiation, the reactor containment, was virtually worthless yet licensed the General Electric (GE) and Westinghouse Ice Condenser reactors anyway. When an Atomic Energy Commission’s (AEC) staff member suggested that this type of containment design be banned in the U.S. the AEC’s deputy director for technical review responded that it “could well be the end of nuclear power. It would throw into question the continued operation of licensed plants, could make unlicensable the GE and Westinghouse ice condenser plants now in review and would generally create more turmoil than I can think about.” (See Appendix B.)
Of course the nuclear bureaucrats did not want to reveal the truth about the fallibility of the nuclear reactors they had already licensed as “safe” and attempted to withhold the information from the public.
Only though the efforts of the Union of Concerned Scientists, their attorneys and those at Public Citizen did the information eventually come to light under the Freedom of Information Act.
In 1986 Harold Denton, former director of NRC's Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, again acknowledged this vulnerability while speaking to utilities executives at Brookhaven National Laboratory. Denton noted that, according to NRC studies the GE Mark I reactors had “something like a 90% probability of that containment failing."
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
Pardon my Japanese but these nuclear power plants are FUKUshima alright. 
One of 3 reactors in the Fukushima Daiichi plant is in trouble.
Over at the Fukushima Daini plant, cooling system had failed at three out of four units.
One of 3 reactors in the Fukushima Daiichi plant is in trouble.
Over at the Fukushima Daini plant, cooling system had failed at three out of four units.
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Joe Summer
Footballguy
I wonder how many of the Japanese nuclear plant workers are being exposed to lethal doses of radiation. Do they keep working out of a sense of duty? :needsofthemany:
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
Well. If there's one organization I expect to be entirely reasonable and level headed in their attempts to remain unbiased, it's Greenpeace. They surely have no agenda.
Trump Tight
Footballguy
I believe Greenpeace believes solar, wind and energy generated by people on stationary bicycles are all safe alternatives to nuclear power.
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Fennis
Footballguy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monju_Nuclear_Power_PlantMonju sodium leak and fireOn December 8, 1995, the reactor suffered a serious accident. Intense vibration caused a thermowell inside a pipe carrying sodium coolant to break, possibly at a defective weld point, allowing several hundred kilograms of sodium to leak out onto the floor below the pipe. Upon coming into contact with the air, the liquid sodium reacted with oxygen and moisture in the air, filling the room with caustic fumes and producing temperatures of several hundred degrees Celsius. The heat was so intense that it melted several steel structures in the room. An alarm sounded around 7:30 p.m., switching the system over to manual operations, but a full operational shutdown was not ordered until around 9:00 p.m., after the fumes were spotted. When investigators located the source of the spill they found as much as three tons of solidified sodium.
Fortunately, the leak occurred in the plant's secondary cooling system, so the sodium was not radioactive. However, there was massive public outrage in Japan when it was revealed that Power Reactor and Nuclear Fuel Development Corporation (PNC), the semigovernmental agency then in charge of Monju, had tried to cover up the extent of the accident and resulting damage. This coverup included falsifying reports and the editing of a videotape taken immediately after the accident, as well as the issuing of a gag order to employees regarding the existence of the real tapes
Fortunately, the leak occurred in the plant's secondary cooling system, so the sodium was not radioactive. However, there was massive public outrage in Japan when it was revealed that Power Reactor and Nuclear Fuel Development Corporation (PNC), the semigovernmental agency then in charge of Monju, had tried to cover up the extent of the accident and resulting damage. This coverup included falsifying reports and the editing of a videotape taken immediately after the accident, as well as the issuing of a gag order to employees regarding the existence of the real tapes
Fennis
Footballguy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shika_Nuclear_Power_Plant1999 Criticality EventOn June 18, 1999 during an inspection, an emergency control rod insertion was to be performed on Unit 1. One rod was to be inserted into the reactor, however, due to improper following of the procedure, instead of one rod inserting, 3 rods withdrew. For the next 15 minutes, the reactor was in a dangerous criticality state. This event was not revealed until March 15, 2007, since it was covered up in the records. The unit has been shut down since that date
Rohn Jambo
Footballguy
That's my take on it as well.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't care. It's always seemed irrelevant to me when I hear these sort of arguments. Of course Greenpeace is partisan, and we have to take that into account. But that's no reason not to study what they're saying and decide whether it has merit.Well. If there's one organization I expect to be entirely reasonable and level headed in their attempts to remain unbiased, it's Greenpeace. They surely have no agenda.
Fennis
Footballguy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_Electric_Power_CompanyOn August 29, 2002, the government of Japan revealed that TEPCO was guilty of false reporting in routine governmental inspection of its nuclear plants and systematic concealment of plant safety incidents. All seventeen of its boiling-water reactors were shut down for inspection as a result. TEPCO's president, Nobuya Minami, was later forced to resign, and the utility "eventually admitted to two hundred occasions over more than two decades between 1977 and 2002, involving the submission of false technical data to authorities".
anyway you get the point, there are plenty more examples
anyway you get the point, there are plenty more examples
SofaKings
Footballguy
Especially when they quote a guy from 1986.I don't care. It's always seemed irrelevant to me when I hear these sort of arguments. Of course Greenpeace is partisan, and we have to take that into account. But that's no reason not to study what they're saying and decide whether it has merit.Well. If there's one organization I expect to be entirely reasonable and level headed in their attempts to remain unbiased, it's Greenpeace. They surely have no agenda.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
I realize everyone has a bias. But certain people/groups have consistently painted themselves into a corner and I believe they should be ignored. Glen Beck makes a statement? I ignore him. If Jim Lehrer (PBS newshour) makes the same statement? I leap to attention. I admittedly did not give the earthquake thread as much credibility as it clearly deserves when I first opened it back on page one. Not because I think Japan or earthquakes are no big deal but because Ham started it. And he's always starting end of the world doomsday threads. Greenpeace wants me to take them seriously and not dismiss their arguments? Fine. Try earning my respect by acting like a reasonable and level headed organization. I'm not going to bother figuring out if this is the one time you're not a bunch of lunatics. Nobody is. That's not my fault - it's theirs.I don't care. It's always seemed irrelevant to me when I hear these sort of arguments. Of course Greenpeace is partisan, and we have to take that into account. But that's no reason not to study what they're saying and decide whether it has merit.Well. If there's one organization I expect to be entirely reasonable and level headed in their attempts to remain unbiased, it's Greenpeace. They surely have no agenda.
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mr. furley
Footballguy
glllllll to the Japanese people. sounds horrific.
Sarnoff
Footballguy
So we should consider each report from FoxNews on any topic to be accurate until proven otherwise?I don't care. It's always seemed irrelevant to me when I hear these sort of arguments. Of course Greenpeace is partisan, and we have to take that into account. But that's no reason not to study what they're saying and decide whether it has merit.Well. If there's one organization I expect to be entirely reasonable and level headed in their attempts to remain unbiased, it's Greenpeace. They surely have no agenda.
I thought they had already declared emergencies for 5 reactors at two plants. That is what triggers the evacuations.Just heard on CNN that a second reactor has declared an emergency.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Agreed. Or rather, I would say the default response of any government regarding containment of a nuclear power plant meltdown would be "It's under control, the radioactive release was minimal and everything is going to be OK".When I read this:
I can't help but wonder what the real number of exposed workers will end up being.
Leviathan
Footballguy
I don't know. Details are sketchy.I thought they had already declared emergencies for 5 reactors at two plants. That is what triggers the evacuations.Just heard on CNN that a second reactor has declared an emergency.
Michael Brown
Footballguy
Wilked is "The Bomb" as far as nuclear reactor knowledge goes!
ETA: Before someone calls me out, I'm not trying to be insensitive and make a joke around a tragic situation. His knowledge level is in fact impressive though and has really helped me understand a lot of things I didn't before coming in here.
ETA: Before someone calls me out, I'm not trying to be insensitive and make a joke around a tragic situation. His knowledge level is in fact impressive though and has really helped me understand a lot of things I didn't before coming in here.
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wazoo11
Footballguy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Usg7-xbQOcMEspecially when they quote a guy from 1986.I don't care. It's always seemed irrelevant to me when I hear these sort of arguments. Of course Greenpeace is partisan, and we have to take that into account. But that's no reason not to study what they're saying and decide whether it has merit.Well. If there's one organization I expect to be entirely reasonable and level headed in their attempts to remain unbiased, it's Greenpeace. They surely have no agenda.
themeanmachine
Footballguy
Interesting article from someone who claims to be an expert in the effects of radiation on why this is basically no big deal: http://wormme.com/2011/03/12/incalcuable-danger/
JbizzleMan
Footballguy
CNN just said a catastrophic meltdown may be underway?
Fennis
Footballguy
[5:48 p.m. ET, 7:48 a.m. Tokyo] A meltdown may be under way at one of Fukushima Daiichi's nuclear power reactors, an official with Japan's nuclear and industrial safety agency told CNN Sunday.
A meltdown is a catastrophic failure of the reactor core, with a potential for widespread radiation release. However, Toshiro Bannai, director of the agency's international affairs office, expressed confidence that efforts to control the crisis would prove successful.
Meanwhile, a second reactor at the same facility failed shortly after 5 a.m. Sunday, the Tokyo Electric Power Company said, according to TV Asahi. The power company said it was having difficulty cooling the reactor and may need to release radioactive steam in order to relieve pressure.
A meltdown is a catastrophic failure of the reactor core, with a potential for widespread radiation release. However, Toshiro Bannai, director of the agency's international affairs office, expressed confidence that efforts to control the crisis would prove successful.
Meanwhile, a second reactor at the same facility failed shortly after 5 a.m. Sunday, the Tokyo Electric Power Company said, according to TV Asahi. The power company said it was having difficulty cooling the reactor and may need to release radioactive steam in order to relieve pressure.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
From the Fantastic Four to the Fantastic Unknown.
David Dodds
Administrator
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
They sure use the word "could" a lot in that article.
glumpy
breeze
Interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing. It's clear you and bueno both are experts compared the rest of us, but we like to follow what's going on and learn stuff. Thanks for speaking in simple and clear terms.
David Dodds
Administrator
Here is a schematic in what they are dealing with:
http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/some-links-on-fukushima-daiichi-1.html
http://uvdiv.blogspot.com/2011/03/some-links-on-fukushima-daiichi-1.html
Fennis
Footballguy
anyone have thoughts on the impact to US if there is a complete meltdown? Should I drive east?
Death Cloud article: http://www.helium.com/items/2114628-japanese-reactor-meltdown-could-propel-death-cloud-to-us-west-coast
Death Cloud article: http://www.helium.com/items/2114628-japanese-reactor-meltdown-could-propel-death-cloud-to-us-west-coast
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JbizzleMan
Footballguy
Where's Ham when you need him?!?!?!
Fennis
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
Ummm... sorry- link to these having actually melted down, as per Dodd's subject title?And if not, color me a little disgusted that somebody would title a thread as serious as that without the facts straight.I just checked CNN and NYTimes online, and found this at CNN's live blog...
