Michael Jordan or Lebron James? (1 Viewer)

[Bruce Dickinson]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.

Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

 

[TobiasFunke]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

 

[Koya]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

Your about a decade late. I recall the wonderful Louis Orr years with the Knicks and the pain of talking on the playground hoops court about Bernard King blowing out his knee. Fond memories of my friend emulating Bill Cartwrights odd delivery and reading about the basketball team with the best record, the Albany Patroons coached by the future zen master himself.

 

[cstu]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

They were 34-31 without him until he came back for the last 17 games of that season.

 

[TobiasFunke]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

Your about a decade late. I recall the wonderful Louis Orr years with the Knicks and the pain of talking on the playground hoops court about Bernard King blowing out his knee. Fond memories of my friend emulating Bill Cartwrights odd delivery and reading about the basketball team with the best record, the Albany Patroons coached by the future zen master himself.

When did you start buying into steaming piles of mythology packaged for you by Nike, Gatorade and ESPN?

Also if you don't think LeBron looks "poetic" you stopped following pro basketball around 2006.

 

[TobiasFunke]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

They were 34-31 without him until he came back for the last 17 games of that season.

Can you help me find him on this 55 win roster?

 

[Koya]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

Your about a decade late. I recall the wonderful Louis Orr years with the Knicks and the pain of talking on the playground hoops court about Bernard King blowing out his knee. Fond memories of my friend emulating Bill Cartwrights odd delivery and reading about the basketball team with the best record, the Albany Patroons coached by the future zen master himself.

When did you start buying into steaming piles of mythology packaged for you by Nike, Gatorade and ESPN?

Also if you don't think LeBron looks "poetic" you stopped following pro basketball around 2006.

Can't stand MJ. Hate the brand even more. But he captured the worlds imagination in a way a team player never quite did before. He was impactful in terms of how players were valued - in and off the court. He was theatre. The villain that you had to watch ply his craft.

Lebron may be even more talented physically, and I understand that poetry is subjective - but please, one flowed like a swan while dropping 50 effortless points. And that one is not Lebron. He's bigger and stronger. Jordan was magnificent to watch.

And again, I hate the guy. He killed my Knicks. He became bigger than the game and ruined the team focus was marketing built up superstars to be, in any small way, like mike.

Who wants to "be like lebron" in that hyperbolic way? Other than the recent lebroners pretending to cramp up.

 

[Koya]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

They were 34-31 without him until he came back for the last 17 games of that season.

Can you help me find him on this 55 win roster?

Why are you so hell bent in finding any possible angle to discredit Jordan's supreme greatness. He's possible the greatest player of all time. Had he not turned to baseball, he may have had 7, 8 championships.

Just seems like there is some axe to grind here that doesn't really have to go with either Jordan not lebron.

 

[TobiasFunke]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

Your about a decade late. I recall the wonderful Louis Orr years with the Knicks and the pain of talking on the playground hoops court about Bernard King blowing out his knee. Fond memories of my friend emulating Bill Cartwrights odd delivery and reading about the basketball team with the best record, the Albany Patroons coached by the future zen master himself.

When did you start buying into steaming piles of mythology packaged for you by Nike, Gatorade and ESPN?

Also if you don't think LeBron looks "poetic" you stopped following pro basketball around 2006.

Can't stand MJ. Hate the brand even more. But he captured the worlds imagination in a way a team player never quite did before. He was impactful in terms of how players were valued - in and off the court. He was theatre. The villain that you had to watch ply his craft.

Lebron may be even more talented physically, and I understand that poetry is subjective - but please, one flowed like a swan while dropping 50 effortless points. And that one is not Lebron. He's bigger and stronger. Jordan was magnificent to watch.

And again, I hate the guy. He killed my Knicks. He became bigger than the game and ruined the team focus was marketing built up superstars to be, in any small way, like mike.

Who wants to "be like lebron" in that hyperbolic way? Other than the recent lebroners pretending to cramp up.

Umm, OK.

I don't disagree about his marketing impact. This rest of this is silly IMO. LeBron is amazing to watch, and Jordan never looked effortless. The difference, I think, is that for the last 15 years you've been watching one play (and be dissected) in real time while the memory of the other has been mostly reduced to highlight reels. See for example everyone making the silly claims about how Jordan wouldn't have left a Finals game with cramps, forgetting that he did so in 1997.

 

[TobiasFunke]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

They were 34-31 without him until he came back for the last 17 games of that season.

Can you help me find him on this 55 win roster?

Why are you so hell bent in finding any possible angle to discredit Jordan's supreme greatness. He's possible the greatest player of all time. Had he not turned to baseball, he may have had 7, 8 championships.

Just seems like there is some axe to grind here that doesn't really have to go with either Jordan not lebron.

I loved Jordan. I'm a lifelong UNC fan whose local NBA team sucked for his entire run, how can I not? All my anti-Jordan posts in this thread are intended to show the hypocrisy of the various anti-LeBron arguments being made here, nothing more. And also to amuse me and help me pass the time, I guess.

 

[The General]

Not reading the whole thread but Jordan is obviously the answer to both pole questions.

Lebron beats Jordan in one on one game though.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

Your about a decade late. I recall the wonderful Louis Orr years with the Knicks and the pain of talking on the playground hoops court about Bernard King blowing out his knee. Fond memories of my friend emulating Bill Cartwrights odd delivery and reading about the basketball team with the best record, the Albany Patroons coached by the future zen master himself.

I pegged that date because you showed zero understanding of the sports media's reaction to Jordan in the 1980s. There was a pocket who criticized him as selfish, more interested in winning scoring titles and selling shoes than winning championships. After six pro seasons, he had four scoring titles and millions in endorsements, but had run off three coaches and had gotten knocked out in the first round of the playoffs as much as he had advanced past it. It was easy to find people in the league and covering it who believed Jordan would never be as good as Magic or Bird because he wasn't enough of a team player.

There were even questions about him coming out of college. His last season at UNC, the entire Tar Heels starting five were future first-round draft picks, four of them lottery picks, and they didn't get to the Final Four.

ETA: and that doesn't even address the laughable part about Jordan not being physically imposing yet inventing the vertical element of the game. His athleticism was obvious and jaw-dropping as a rookie. The source materials for his game in his teens and early-mid 20s were his childhood hero, David Thompson, and the active pro he instantly drew comparisons to, Julius Erving.

 

[Dentist]

I never really seen anything to suggest the James is any where near the schmuck Jordan appears to be.

I agree that Jordan def comes off as a super #######, but what is funny about that is most people liked the 90's Bulls a lot more than the hate for 2010's Heat.

How well do you think Jordan's persona would have survived if TMZ, Twitter, Deadspin, the blogosphere, and 24-hour news cycles were around at Jordan's peak?

It would be incredibly interesting to have an idea what the real effects are of mass micro media are on the persona of the athlete.

A lot of things that happened behind closed doors then would be opened up now and be treated unfavorably by the media... nowadays the way Jordan treated his teammates in practice wouldn't be tolerated.. he'd be considered a bully or something.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

I never really seen anything to suggest the James is any where near the schmuck Jordan appears to be.

I agree that Jordan def comes off as a super #######, but what is funny about that is most people liked the 90's Bulls a lot more than the hate for 2010's Heat.

How well do you think Jordan's persona would have survived if TMZ, Twitter, Deadspin, the blogosphere, and 24-hour news cycles were around at Jordan's peak?

It would be incredibly interesting to have an idea what the real effects are of mass micro media are on the persona of the athlete.

A lot of things that happened behind closed doors then would be opened up now and be treated unfavorably by the media... nowadays the way Jordan treated his teammates in practice wouldn't be tolerated.. he'd be considered a bully or something.

The high stakes gambling in casinos, the golf course, and the team plane would all have been reported and dissected for hours on sports talk radio and multiple ESPN channels.

 

[Dentist]

I never really seen anything to suggest the James is any where near the schmuck Jordan appears to be.

I hadn't either.

I'm sure most ultra-successful famous people are ultimately jerks because of a variety of factors I can't fully understand because I don't know what it is like to be famous.

But Jordan seems like a real first rate basspole

I don't think it's possible to be as driven as Jordan without having serious issues in your personal life.

Lebron on the other hand seems to be a nice guy, but that will probably hold him back from being as great as Jordan.

I completely agree.

I don't fully understand the extremely successful person... as I'm not one and will never be one... and frankly I don't even want to be extremely successful.

Anyone who achieves enough money to spend their remaining years lying on the beach sipping scotch (or some similar form of complete and total leisure) and then doesn't do that... well they are insane to me.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I never really seen anything to suggest the James is any where near the schmuck Jordan appears to be.

I agree that Jordan def comes off as a super #######, but what is funny about that is most people liked the 90's Bulls a lot more than the hate for 2010's Heat.

How well do you think Jordan's persona would have survived if TMZ, Twitter, Deadspin, the blogosphere, and 24-hour news cycles were around at Jordan's peak?

It would be incredibly interesting to have an idea what the real effects are of mass micro media are on the persona of the athlete.

A lot of things that happened behind closed doors then would be opened up now and be treated unfavorably by the media... nowadays the way Jordan treated his teammates in practice wouldn't be tolerated.. he'd be considered a bully or something.

I tend to think he'd still be the ESPN media darling (assuming they had an NBA TV deal) and would still sell him as the ultimate competitor, one who refuses anything less than full dedication, from his teammates.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

HOT SPORTS TAKE

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

HOT SPORTS TAKE

Do you live in an igloo?

 

[Tau837]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

The challenge was in the fact that they were just 34-31 when he came back.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

HOT SPORTS TAKE

Do you live in an igloo?

No. Are you so ignorant to actually believe that or is this just another terrible joke?

 

[Bull Dozier]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

This might be slightly off topic, but I was a bit confused during the game last night when the announcers were acting like this was not a shock at all. They said something to the effect of "there were a few teams in the West that would have been decent favorites over the Heat had they made the finals over the Spurs."

 

[Cliff Clavin]

This might be slightly off topic, but I was a bit confused during the game last night when the announcers were acting like this was not a shock at all. They said something to the effect of "there were a few teams in the West that would have been decent favorites over the Heat had they made the finals over the Spurs."

The Spurs are that good. The Clippers would have likely been a favourite over the Heat as well. OKC would have been a pick'em.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

Not everyone leads the same way.

I remember the Bulls getting ram-rodded by the Pistons in Game 7 of the '90 ECF, and I don't recall Jordan once getting in the faces of his teammates to light a fire under their asses. What a terrible leader he must have been, right?

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

HOT SPORTS TAKE

Do you live in an igloo?

No. Are you so ignorant to actually believe that or is this just another terrible joke?

It would be pretty ignorant to think Lebron doesn't need to get in his teammates faces and get them to raise the level of their play as most of them look like they quit last night. You obviously know little of what a leader is supposed to do. Even though I am not a Lebron fan, it wouldn't surprise me the least if he did this after the game last night or before flying to SA.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

Not everyone leads the same way.

I remember the Bulls getting ram-rodded by the Pistons in Game 7 of the '90 ECF, and I don't recall Jordan once getting in the faces of his teammates to light a fire under their asses. What a terrible leader he must have been, right?

I love how almost every MJ reference is pre 91... And if you don't think that MJ got in everyone's face (including HOFer Scottie Pippen) and got in their #### when they weren't giving it their all, you must be delusional.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

HOT SPORTS TAKE

Do you live in an igloo?

No. Are you so ignorant to actually believe that or is this just another terrible joke?

It would be pretty ignorant to think Lebron doesn't need to get in his teammates faces and get them to raise the level of their play as most of them look like they quit last night. You obviously know little of what a leader is supposed to do. Even though I am not a Lebron fan, it wouldn't surprise me the least if he did this after the game last night or before flying to SA.

You have to be a Skip Bayless alias.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

HOT SPORTS TAKE

Do you live in an igloo?

No. Are you so ignorant to actually believe that or is this just another terrible joke?

It would be pretty ignorant to think Lebron doesn't need to get in his teammates faces and get them to raise the level of their play as most of them look like they quit last night. You obviously know little of what a leader is supposed to do. Even though I am not a Lebron fan, it wouldn't surprise me the least if he did this after the game last night or before flying to SA.

You have to be a Skip Bayless alias.

You aren't very bright

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

This might be slightly off topic, but I was a bit confused during the game last night when the announcers were acting like this was not a shock at all. They said something to the effect of "there were a few teams in the West that would have been decent favorites over the Heat had they made the finals over the Spurs."

The Heat were "only" 54-28 this season. It would be one of the worst regular-season records of a league champion since the merger.

54-28 tied for fourth in the West this season.

 

[cstu]

I pegged that date because you showed zero understanding of the sports media's reaction to Jordan in the 1980s. There was a pocket who criticized him as selfish, more interested in winning scoring titles and selling shoes than winning championships. After six pro seasons, he had four scoring titles and millions in endorsements, but had run off three coaches and had gotten knocked out in the first round of the playoffs as much as he had advanced past it. It was easy to find people in the league and covering it who believed Jordan would never be as good as Magic or Bird because he wasn't enough of a team player.

There were even questions about him coming out of college. His last season at UNC, the entire Tar Heels starting five were future first-round draft picks, four of them lottery picks, and they didn't get to the Final Four.

ETA: and that doesn't even address the laughable part about Jordan not being physically imposing yet inventing the vertical element of the game. His athleticism was obvious and jaw-dropping as a rookie. The source materials for his game in his teens and early-mid 20s were his childhood hero, David Thompson, and the active pro he instantly drew comparisons to, Julius Erving.

I remember all that talk about Jordan as well and thought it was ridiculous even back then. The Bulls were a 27 win team before Jordan and made playoffs his rookie year. His first 3 seasons they lost to the Bucks (59 win team) and Celtics (twice). Then they lost to the Pistons, who were back to back champions, three straight years.

Despite losing those six years, Jordan never averaged less than 34 points per game during the playoffs. In that last three playoff losses before finally winning a title he never shot less than 51%.

 

[Bull Dozier]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

This might be slightly off topic, but I was a bit confused during the game last night when the announcers were acting like this was not a shock at all. They said something to the effect of "there were a few teams in the West that would have been decent favorites over the Heat had they made the finals over the Spurs."

The Heat were "only" 54-28 this season. It would be one of the worst regular-season records of a league champion since the merger.

54-28 tied for fourth in the West this season.

That's what I get for only following the NBA starting in the conference finals.

Carry on.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

Not everyone leads the same way.

I remember the Bulls getting ram-rodded by the Pistons in Game 7 of the '90 ECF, and I don't recall Jordan once getting in the faces of his teammates to light a fire under their asses. What a terrible leader he must have been, right?

I love how almost every MJ reference is pre 91... And if you don't think that MJ got in everyone's face (including HOFer Scottie Pippen) and got in their #### when they weren't giving it their all, you must be delusional.

The infamous migraine that dogged Pippen in that Game 7 was caused by Jordan yelling at him too much at practice the day before the game.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I pegged that date because you showed zero understanding of the sports media's reaction to Jordan in the 1980s. There was a pocket who criticized him as selfish, more interested in winning scoring titles and selling shoes than winning championships. After six pro seasons, he had four scoring titles and millions in endorsements, but had run off three coaches and had gotten knocked out in the first round of the playoffs as much as he had advanced past it. It was easy to find people in the league and covering it who believed Jordan would never be as good as Magic or Bird because he wasn't enough of a team player.

There were even questions about him coming out of college. His last season at UNC, the entire Tar Heels starting five were future first-round draft picks, four of them lottery picks, and they didn't get to the Final Four.

ETA: and that doesn't even address the laughable part about Jordan not being physically imposing yet inventing the vertical element of the game. His athleticism was obvious and jaw-dropping as a rookie. The source materials for his game in his teens and early-mid 20s were his childhood hero, David Thompson, and the active pro he instantly drew comparisons to, Julius Erving.

I remember all that talk about Jordan as well and thought it was ridiculous even back then. The Bulls were a 27 win team before Jordan and made playoffs his rookie year. His first 3 seasons they lost to the Bucks (59 win team) and Celtics (twice). Then they lost to the Pistons, who were back to back champions, three straight years.

Despite losing those six years, Jordan never averaged less than 34 points per game during the playoffs. In that last three playoff losses before finally winning a title he never shot less than 51%.

A lot of the credit for that second 3-peat, Jordan's PPG, & shooting percentage (as previously mentioned) should go to All-World Canadian center Bill Wennington

 

[Reegus]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

They were 34-31 without him until he came back for the last 17 games of that season.

Can you help me find him on this 55 win roster?

Why are you so hell bent in finding any possible angle to discredit Jordan's supreme greatness. He's possible the greatest player of all time. Had he not turned to baseball, he may have had 7, 8 championships. Just seems like there is some axe to grind here that doesn't really have to go with either Jordan not lebron.

Woulda coulda shoulda

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

Not everyone leads the same way.

I remember the Bulls getting ram-rodded by the Pistons in Game 7 of the '90 ECF, and I don't recall Jordan once getting in the faces of his teammates to light a fire under their asses. What a terrible leader he must have been, right?

I love how almost every MJ reference is pre 91...

Oh, so things that cast all-time greats in a negative light at all don't count if they happened in non-title-winning years? I guess you'll give LeBron a pass for all of this stuff if the Heat lose, then, right, Skip?

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

Not everyone leads the same way.

I remember the Bulls getting ram-rodded by the Pistons in Game 7 of the '90 ECF, and I don't recall Jordan once getting in the faces of his teammates to light a fire under their asses. What a terrible leader he must have been, right?

I love how almost every MJ reference is pre 91...

Oh, so things that cast all-time greats in a negative light at all don't count if they happened in non-title-winning years? I guess you'll give LeBron a pass for all of this stuff if the Heat lose, then, right, Skip?

He was 6-0 in the finals afterwards and the greatest of all time... I don't even think it is up for debate...

I assume you're a Lebron voter? Still time to change to the correct answer...

 

[Sweet J]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

This might be slightly off topic, but I was a bit confused during the game last night when the announcers were acting like this was not a shock at all. They said something to the effect of "there were a few teams in the West that would have been decent favorites over the Heat had they made the finals over the Spurs."

The Heat were "only" 54-28 this season. It would be one of the worst regular-season records of a league champion since the merger.

54-28 tied for fourth in the West this season.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm not sure this is a meaningful stat, if the Heat rested their starters (or limited their minutes) in order to be healthy for the playoff push. That seems to be more of a thing now than it was in the 80s and 90s.

 

[Thunderlips]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

Come on. You set it up to play with two friends; who happen to be two of the top players in the league? How come he ain't with Jabroni Jones or Goofy McGee or other 12th men? How come he's not setting it up to play with them? HOW COME?

 

[Uruk-Hai]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

Your about a decade late. I recall the wonderful Louis Orr years with the Knicks and the pain of talking on the playground hoops court about Bernard King blowing out his knee. Fond memories of my friend emulating Bill Cartwrights odd delivery and reading about the basketball team with the best record, the Albany Patroons coached by the future zen master himself.

I pegged that date because you showed zero understanding of the sports media's reaction to Jordan in the 1980s. There was a pocket who criticized him as selfish, more interested in winning scoring titles and selling shoes than winning championships. After six pro seasons, he had four scoring titles and millions in endorsements, but had run off three coaches and had gotten knocked out in the first round of the playoffs as much as he had advanced past it. It was easy to find people in the league and covering it who believed Jordan would never be as good as Magic or Bird because he wasn't enough of a team player.

There were even questions about him coming out of college. His last season at UNC, the entire Tar Heels starting five were future first-round draft picks, four of them lottery picks, and they didn't get to the Final Four.

ETA: and that doesn't even address the laughable part about Jordan not being physically imposing yet inventing the vertical element of the game. His athleticism was obvious and jaw-dropping as a rookie. The source materials for his game in his teens and early-mid 20s were his childhood hero, David Thompson, and the active pro he instantly drew comparisons to, Julius Erving.

This is pretty good posting and I'm surprised Koya - who I think of as one the most level headed and thinking posters on this board, regardless of subject - has taken such a hard-line stance, unless he's just trying to goose some folks.

Personally, at this point, I think Jordan was better after his athletic "prime" (you know, when he could jump the highest) but LeBron was better IN his.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

HOT SPORTS TAKE

Do you live in an igloo?

No. Are you so ignorant to actually believe that or is this just another terrible joke?

It would be pretty ignorant to think Lebron doesn't need to get in his teammates faces and get them to raise the level of their play as most of them look like they quit last night. You obviously know little of what a leader is supposed to do. Even though I am not a Lebron fan, it wouldn't surprise me the least if he did this after the game last night or before flying to SA.

You have to be a Skip Bayless alias.

You aren't very bright

Must not be. Since you're are so intelligent, please Skip, tell us why you think you know more about leading a basketball team full of veterans and future HOF'ers than LeBron.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Jordan - and it isn't close. I am not even sure how LeBron has as many votes as he does.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

Not everyone leads the same way.

I remember the Bulls getting ram-rodded by the Pistons in Game 7 of the '90 ECF, and I don't recall Jordan once getting in the faces of his teammates to light a fire under their asses. What a terrible leader he must have been, right?

I love how almost every MJ reference is pre 91...

Oh, so things that cast all-time greats in a negative light at all don't count if they happened in non-title-winning years? I guess you'll give LeBron a pass for all of this stuff if the Heat lose, then, right, Skip?

He was 6-0 in the finals afterwards and the greatest of all time... I don't even think it is up for debate...

I assume you're a Lebron voter? Still time to change to the correct answer...

Which is better: 6-0 lifetime in the Finals, or 6-4 lifetime?

Which is better: 6-0 lifetime in the Finals, or 5-4 lifetime?

 

[Koya]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

Your about a decade late. I recall the wonderful Louis Orr years with the Knicks and the pain of talking on the playground hoops court about Bernard King blowing out his knee. Fond memories of my friend emulating Bill Cartwrights odd delivery and reading about the basketball team with the best record, the Albany Patroons coached by the future zen master himself.

I pegged that date because you showed zero understanding of the sports media's reaction to Jordan in the 1980s. There was a pocket who criticized him as selfish, more interested in winning scoring titles and selling shoes than winning championships. After six pro seasons, he had four scoring titles and millions in endorsements, but had run off three coaches and had gotten knocked out in the first round of the playoffs as much as he had advanced past it. It was easy to find people in the league and covering it who believed Jordan would never be as good as Magic or Bird because he wasn't enough of a team player.

There were even questions about him coming out of college. His last season at UNC, the entire Tar Heels starting five were future first-round draft picks, four of them lottery picks, and they didn't get to the Final Four.

ETA: and that doesn't even address the laughable part about Jordan not being physically imposing yet inventing the vertical element of the game. His athleticism was obvious and jaw-dropping as a rookie. The source materials for his game in his teens and early-mid 20s were his childhood hero, David Thompson, and the active pro he instantly drew comparisons to, Julius Erving.

This is pretty good posting and I'm surprised Koya - who I think of as one the most level headed and thinking posters on this board, regardless of subject - has taken such a hard-line stance, unless he's just trying to goose some folks.Personally, at this point, I think Jordan was better after his athletic "prime" (you know, when he could jump the highest) but LeBron was better IN his.

While it's always fun to throw a little goose in the light hearted threads, I honestly don't see why my viewpoint is hardline? I think Jordan, at his peak, had more impact on and a LOT more impact off the court than Lebron.

23 was the revolution. Everyone is on his coatails right now. I don't see that as so far out there.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

NCC, That's true, and by then, almost everybody loved him because he was seen as the ultimate winner. Similar to Tiger Woods, who also wasn't really thought of as a jerk until long after he was viewed as golf's alpha male.

And Jordan earned it. He was not expected to be the best player in the nba when he was drafted not to say best of all time. He was not physically imposing like Lebron, not a man child. He was not drafted at 18 as the next greatest thing ever... Who then didn't win it all and bailed in a childish look at me manner to join a team with two other superstars.Jordan battled his way, earned his stripes.

Lebron gifted himself onto the best team with a sense of entitlement along the way.

That's why people loved Jordan.

Oh... And he did things in the air and on the court that no one had ever seen before. He ushered in "air" basketball and brought the NBA from a rising league to the showcase thing to watch in sports. He brought about a shoe and retailing and marketing / branding revolution.

And he willed his teams to win, fulling on every bit of the immense promise of his brand.

Lebron might be the greatest physical specimen ever to play, but he doesn't look poetic while dominating.

Let me guess. You started following pro basketball around 1992.

Your about a decade late. I recall the wonderful Louis Orr years with the Knicks and the pain of talking on the playground hoops court about Bernard King blowing out his knee. Fond memories of my friend emulating Bill Cartwrights odd delivery and reading about the basketball team with the best record, the Albany Patroons coached by the future zen master himself.

I pegged that date because you showed zero understanding of the sports media's reaction to Jordan in the 1980s. There was a pocket who criticized him as selfish, more interested in winning scoring titles and selling shoes than winning championships. After six pro seasons, he had four scoring titles and millions in endorsements, but had run off three coaches and had gotten knocked out in the first round of the playoffs as much as he had advanced past it. It was easy to find people in the league and covering it who believed Jordan would never be as good as Magic or Bird because he wasn't enough of a team player.

There were even questions about him coming out of college. His last season at UNC, the entire Tar Heels starting five were future first-round draft picks, four of them lottery picks, and they didn't get to the Final Four.

ETA: and that doesn't even address the laughable part about Jordan not being physically imposing yet inventing the vertical element of the game. His athleticism was obvious and jaw-dropping as a rookie. The source materials for his game in his teens and early-mid 20s were his childhood hero, David Thompson, and the active pro he instantly drew comparisons to, Julius Erving.

This is pretty good posting and I'm surprised Koya - who I think of as one the most level headed and thinking posters on this board, regardless of subject - has taken such a hard-line stance, unless he's just trying to goose some folks.

Personally, at this point, I think Jordan was better after his athletic "prime" (you know, when he could jump the highest) but LeBron was better IN his.

IMO Jordan's BKBIQ increased a lot during his pro career. He kept adding wrinkles to his game, and reinvented himself a couple times. He played a lot of PG under Doug Collins, like that year he broke math when he won MVP and DPOY. Then when Phil Jackson was hired, Pippen could be used to initiate the offense more and Jordan became a lot better off the ball; he was actually really good on the left block, and he had a size advantage at SG a lot in his 20s before the superwing revolution. After the baseball sabbatical, he became a midrange mad genius, and those couple years the NBA moved the three-point line in out top, MJ could hit threes from the wing, too.

On the defensive side, he evolved from a risk taker who gambled too much but got away with it because of his size and quickness to a bona fide lockdown defender. And then after the baseball sabbatical, he reinvented himself as a scheme predator often starting the play guarding PGs to steer the action into traps, but able to switch seamlessly across 1-2-3 with Harper and Pippen.

 

[cstu]

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

They were 34-31 without him until he came back for the last 17 games of that season.

Can you help me find him on this 55 win roster?

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

If Jordan had any ambition or drive at all he would have sought out a challenge when he returned to the league in 1995 instead of signing on with a team that won 55 games without him the previous season.

They were 34-31 without him until he came back for the last 17 games of that season.

Can you help me find him on this 55 win roster?

Why are you so hell bent in finding any possible angle to discredit Jordan's supreme greatness. He's possible the greatest player of all time. Had he not turned to baseball, he may have had 7, 8 championships.

Just seems like there is some axe to grind here that doesn't really have to go with either Jordan not lebron.

I loved Jordan. I'm a lifelong UNC fan whose local NBA team sucked for his entire run, how can I not? All my anti-Jordan posts in this thread are intended to show the hypocrisy of the various anti-LeBron arguments being made here, nothing more. And also to amuse me and help me pass the time, I guess.

That Bulls team was still pretty good even without Jordan and had just come off its third championship. They didn't have enough to win it all though.

If Lebron left the Heat and the rest of the team was intact they would still win a lot of games without him, just not a title.

 

[cstu]

I pegged that date because you showed zero understanding of the sports media's reaction to Jordan in the 1980s. There was a pocket who criticized him as selfish, more interested in winning scoring titles and selling shoes than winning championships. After six pro seasons, he had four scoring titles and millions in endorsements, but had run off three coaches and had gotten knocked out in the first round of the playoffs as much as he had advanced past it. It was easy to find people in the league and covering it who believed Jordan would never be as good as Magic or Bird because he wasn't enough of a team player.

There were even questions about him coming out of college. His last season at UNC, the entire Tar Heels starting five were future first-round draft picks, four of them lottery picks, and they didn't get to the Final Four.

ETA: and that doesn't even address the laughable part about Jordan not being physically imposing yet inventing the vertical element of the game. His athleticism was obvious and jaw-dropping as a rookie. The source materials for his game in his teens and early-mid 20s were his childhood hero, David Thompson, and the active pro he instantly drew comparisons to, Julius Erving.

This is pretty good posting and I'm surprised Koya - who I think of as one the most level headed and thinking posters on this board, regardless of subject - has taken such a hard-line stance, unless he's just trying to goose some folks.

Personally, at this point, I think Jordan was better after his athletic "prime" (you know, when he could jump the highest) but LeBron was better IN his.

Dr J's best years were in the ABA where few people saw him.

By the time he won a title he wasn't even the best player on his team (Moses Malone).

That's not meant to take anything away from him but he didn't have Jordan's luck of entering the NBA when it was ready for a player like him.

 

[Koya]

I pegged that date because you showed zero understanding of the sports media's reaction to Jordan in the 1980s. There was a pocket who criticized him as selfish, more interested in winning scoring titles and selling shoes than winning championships. After six pro seasons, he had four scoring titles and millions in endorsements, but had run off three coaches and had gotten knocked out in the first round of the playoffs as much as he had advanced past it. It was easy to find people in the league and covering it who believed Jordan would never be as good as Magic or Bird because he wasn't enough of a team player.

There were even questions about him coming out of college. His last season at UNC, the entire Tar Heels starting five were future first-round draft picks, four of them lottery picks, and they didn't get to the Final Four.

ETA: and that doesn't even address the laughable part about Jordan not being physically imposing yet inventing the vertical element of the game. His athleticism was obvious and jaw-dropping as a rookie. The source materials for his game in his teens and early-mid 20s were his childhood hero, David Thompson, and the active pro he instantly drew comparisons to, Julius Erving.

This is pretty good posting and I'm surprised Koya - who I think of as one the most level headed and thinking posters on this board, regardless of subject - has taken such a hard-line stance, unless he's just trying to goose some folks.Personally, at this point, I think Jordan was better after his athletic "prime" (you know, when he could jump the highest) but LeBron was better IN his.

Dr J's best years were in the ABA where few people saw him.

By the time he won a title he wasn't even the best player on his team (Moses Malone).

That's not meant to take anything away from him but he didn't have Jordan's luck of entering the NBA when it was ready for a player like him.

Oh, I LOVE Dr J. Long Island #####es!

But, great as J was, and above he rim a decade prior to Jordan as he did, Doc was not the player, the influence, the brand, the next generation of athlete über star that Jordan was. He's the bottom part of the top ten ever and fun as hell, and honestly I think the ABA years help define him in a way not detract from his greatness.

I will concede that Jordan was the perfect player at the perfect time. Magic and bird got bball back on the map. You saw FAR more TV coverage, and then not the introduction of new media. But it was the high flying theatrics that then connected with a three peat and utter dominance in AND off the court that is my basis for saying Lebron, great as he is, is not that close to the overall influence and brand that was - and somehow still IS - MJ.

 

[Courtjester]

I never really seen anything to suggest the James is any where near the schmuck Jordan appears to be.

I agree that Jordan def comes off as a super #######, but what is funny about that is most people liked the 90's Bulls a lot more than the hate for 2010's Heat.

How well do you think Jordan's persona would have survived if TMZ, Twitter, Deadspin, the blogosphere, and 24-hour news cycles were around at Jordan's peak?

He would have been found out much earlier.

No Jordan would have been stand offish to the media very similar to Kobe. Whereas Lebron seems to want to be liked and seems to care about what people think of him.

 

[Koya]

I never really seen anything to suggest the James is any where near the schmuck Jordan appears to be.

I agree that Jordan def comes off as a super #######, but what is funny about that is most people liked the 90's Bulls a lot more than the hate for 2010's Heat.

How well do you think Jordan's persona would have survived if TMZ, Twitter, Deadspin, the blogosphere, and 24-hour news cycles were around at Jordan's peak?

He would have been found out much earlier.

No Jordan would have been stand offish to the media very similar to Kobe. Whereas Lebron seems to want to be liked and seems to care about what people think of him.

This is an interesting question. Let's not forget that today's players KNOW the length of the medias lens and the successful ones act somewhat accordingly .

Personally, I think Jordan would have been more coy than standoffish. More importantly I think he would have found a way to USE the media to his competitive advantage. How he'd get into guys heads, win games before they even started . I've simply never seen such a must win, will won, cut throat competitor as Jordan and believe he'd have used whatever tools would be at his disposal depending upon era.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think the one thing (even the staunchest Lebron supporter) everyone can agree on is the complete shock of what is happening in the finals... I'll be the first to admit it doesn't all fall on his shoulders, but as the best in the game and leader of that team, he needs to get in the face of every one of his teammates, be a leader, and light a fire under their asses.

Not everyone leads the same way.

I remember the Bulls getting ram-rodded by the Pistons in Game 7 of the '90 ECF, and I don't recall Jordan once getting in the faces of his teammates to light a fire under their asses. What a terrible leader he must have been, right?

I love how almost every MJ reference is pre 91...

Oh, so things that cast all-time greats in a negative light at all don't count if they happened in non-title-winning years? I guess you'll give LeBron a pass for all of this stuff if the Heat lose, then, right, Skip?

He was 6-0 in the finals afterwards and the greatest of all time... I don't even think it is up for debate...

I assume you're a Lebron voter? Still time to change to the correct answer...

I voted for Jordan, as I said earlier in the thread. Come on, try and keep up, Skip.

LOL at that post.

Expectations have nothing to do with it.

How did LeBron gift his way on to the best team? The Heat were a fringe playoff team before he got there, and since then, they've gone to four finals, winning twice.

Come on. You set it up to play with two friends; who happen to be two of the top players in the league? How come he ain't with Jabroni Jones or Goofy McGee or other 12th men? How come he's not setting it up to play with them? HOW COME?

Two of the top players in the league? Bosh has hardly ever been one of the top players in the league (his only nba all-team was when he made 2nd team in '07).

As for 12th men, he played with a collection of mostly (see: not all, so need to mention the few exceptions) average at best players in Cleveland, yet still got that joke of a franchise to a finals once.

And how's this for a fun stat:

Miami's playoff record in the four years prior to James getting there: 4-12

MIami's playoff record in the four years since James got there: 59-27

So yeah, let's not act like he isn't the difference. Before he got there, Miami was not some team on the verge of winning it, and LeBron went there and gave them a little nudge to the top; they were a fringe playoff team that couldn't get out of the first round for four years before he got there, even with Dwayne Wade in his prime.

I don't know why some of you Jordan honks feel the need to tear down James in order to prop Jordan up. It's sad. Just about everyone agrees that Jordan is the greatest ever, but that doesn't mean James hasn't been magnificent as well.