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Military coup attempt in Turkey (2 Viewers)

JerseyToughGuys said:
who do we like in this one?
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If I am choosing between backing Erdogan or the Turkish military, I will take the latter.

There is a realistic hope that they just want to undo the anti-democratic actions Erdogan has taken. Whereas Erdogan just wants to consolidate power and imprison (or worse) anybody who criticizes him.

 
Gary Coal Man said:
Probably the military.

This is from an article about the history of Turkish coups:  "Kenan Evren, the former Turkish president now facing charges in an Ankara court, is only the most recent in a long line of military officers to seize power in a coup.The military has long seen itself as the "guardian of Turkish democracy," which it defines as the staunchly secular state created by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the modern Turkish republic."

There has been a lot written in recent years of Erdogan wanting to roll back some of that secularism in favor of a more religious state.
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Exactly.  

 
My dad and little brother are supposed to be in Istanbul next week passing through to China (dad for business, brother because why not summer break!). 

Im curious what they do now. 

 
Turkey had reached some new diplomatic and trade agreements with Israel. Wonder if that had anything to do with this? 

 
Ideologically we would back the military but do we support democracy or not?  It's not like they elected Trump over there. 

 
Nick Vermeil said:
Ideologically we would back the military but do we support democracy or not?  It's not like they elected Trump over there. 
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Erdogan is a quasi-islamist populist. He is sort of Trumpy.

- This is somewhat like the Honduras situation around 2009. IMO Obama went way overboard on the "democracy" aspect and he missed what was important and that is that the "coup" really was democratic, it was an impeachment followed by the military stepping in because the president would not abdicate as the constitution instructed, which was part of the constitution.

Here if Obama goes 'democracy' I think that's a mistake. Turkey's military is baked into the constitutional cake, they are there to protect "democracy" and the secular, democratic nature of the state even if at first glance that seems contradictory. We have already gone through this in Egypt (where we backed the wrong horse in the MB and Morsi), I hope he does the right thing here.

 
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Nick Vermeil said:
Ideologically we would back the military but do we support democracy or not?  It's not like they elected Trump over there. 
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Erdogan and his allies were basically chipping away at the whole secular democratic foundation of Turkey.

Sometimes a guy who is elected democratically is actually a bigger threat to future democracy than an un-democratic action (like a coup). Of course the key word in there is sometimes.

 
Went to Turkey a few years back.  Beautiful women, beautiful country.  Kudos to the military to try and restore democracy.  At least someone is making a stand against radical Islam. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Erdogan is a quasi-islamist populist. He is sort of Trumpy.

- This is somewhat like the Honduras situation around 2009. IMO Obama went way overboard on the "democracy" aspect and he missed what was important and that is that the "coup" really was democratic, it was an impeachment followed by the military stepping in because the president would not abdicate as the constitution instructed, which was part of the constitution.

Here if Obama goes 'democracy' I think that's a mistake. Turkey's military is baked into the constitutional cake, they are there to protect "democracy" and the secular, democratic nature of the state even if at first glance that seems contradictory. We have already gone through this in Egypt (where we backed the wrong horse in the MB and Morsi), I hope he does the right thing here.
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I was trying to highlight the grey areas. You did better.  

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
Erdogan isn't a Saddam or an al-Assad, but he is still way more of an authoritarian dicator-wanna be than ought to be in charge of a country that aspires to be more like a modern European nation than a Middle Eastern basket case.
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Disagree.  He is absolutely on the same path, he's just been smart enough to be measured about it.  10 years from now people will ask "how come nobody predicted what a train wreck this guy became?"

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
- This is somewhat like the Honduras situation around 2009. IMO Obama went way overboard on the "democracy" aspect and he missed what was important and that is that the "coup" really was democratic, it was an impeachment followed by the military stepping in because the president would not abdicate as the constitution instructed, which was part of the constitution.
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Venezuela is another good example. Chavez was legitimately democratically elected one time. After he got into power, he dismantled the Constitutional limits on his power and rigged subsequent elections. Venezuelans might be better off today if the coup of 2001 hadn't been aborted. 

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Disagree.  He is absolutely on the same path, he's just been smart enough to be measured about it.  10 years from now people will ask "how come nobody predicted what a train wreck this guy became?"
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I actually agree. I probably should have said he isn't in their category yet. He was definitely trending that way.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Erdogan is a quasi-islamist populist. He is sort of Trumpy.

- This is somewhat like the Honduras situation around 2009. IMO Obama went way overboard on the "democracy" aspect and he missed what was important and that is that the "coup" really was democratic, it was an impeachment followed by the military stepping in because the president would not abdicate as the constitution instructed, which was part of the constitution.

Here if Obama goes 'democracy' I think that's a mistake. Turkey's military is baked into the constitutional cake, they are there to protect "democracy" and the secular, democratic nature of the state even if at first glance that seems contradictory. We have already gone through this in Egypt (where we backed the wrong horse in the MB and Morsi), I hope he does the right thing here.
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Yeah, I don't think the military taking charge is all that bad.  I think the correct route is not to take sides, at least immediately -- just sit back and hope someone "wins" quickly and work for a peaceful resolution or transition.  Military is probably in part responding to increased terrorism, and it's not a bad thing to have that extra cooperation.  But it still seems unclear if this just a faction of the military or substantially all of it.

 
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Ministry of Pain said:
What if a military coup uprising happened here in the United States? What then?
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While we are not the fattest country in the world, we are full of so many overweight fatties and outright beasts that they can only go along with it. Should have seen the ginormous fat hog that rascaled herself across the highway today. The fatties have no choice and there are so few of us normal size humans that it would be a rout going against them.

 
Whoever ends up in power is going to have to deal with the question of Kurdish autonomy/independence in a real way before there can be any lasting stability in Turkey.

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
I actually agree. I probably should have said he isn't in their category yet. He was definitely trending that way.
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Gotcha.  Yeah, friends from Turkey talk about him the same way friends from Zimbabwe and Venezuela used to talk about Mugabe and Chavez.

IMO that is the scariest thing about a guy like Trump.  A country can flip so so quickly if a power hungry, pretend-to-be populist takes over and taps into anger issues.

 
I know it is nobody's business but the Turks, but will Istanbul go back to being Constantinople? 

 
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