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Minnesota Vikings Team Thread (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Heatman
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
KFAN’s Paul Allen: Vikings Could Target LT Nate Solder if Team Doesn’t Land Cousins
I don't like that Solder is 29 years old and this is a bit older than big ticket free agents Spielman has signed in the past, so he might not even be a consideration because of that, although offensive linemen can play well into their 30s so maybe he could be the Vikings starter for 3-4 seasons still at his age.
Riley Reiff did not play as well at right tackle for the Lions as he did left tackle. So the move may not be good for him.
I would be somewhat surprised if the Patriots do not re-sign him, so I didn't really think he was an option.
I think $13 million is possible even if the Vikings do pay Cousins $26-30 million. They have about $60 million to use and that is without cuts to Jarius Wright and others who could free up additional cap space. Not that I dislike Jarius Wright I just don't think the Vikings need him that much and that money could be used for Diggs new contract, which likely will be expensive.
I don't like that Solder is 29 years old and this is a bit older than big ticket free agents Spielman has signed in the past, so he might not even be a consideration because of that, although offensive linemen can play well into their 30s so maybe he could be the Vikings starter for 3-4 seasons still at his age.
Riley Reiff did not play as well at right tackle for the Lions as he did left tackle. So the move may not be good for him.
I would be somewhat surprised if the Patriots do not re-sign him, so I didn't really think he was an option.
snogger
Footballguy
Pretty good article last "Con" is important for the "First part":
Biggest "fear".. They decide to let all 3 QB's hit the FA Market to go after Cousins.
After a week or two of "courting", Cousins chooses Denver and the other 3 already signed elsewhere.
Leaving the Vikings with?????????????????????????????????
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mr roboto
Footballguy
Jay cutler!!!Pretty good article last "Con" is important for the "First part":
Biggest "fear".. They decide to let all 3 QB's hit the FA Market to go after Cousins.
After a week or two of "courting", Cousins chooses Denver and the other 3 already signed elsewhere.
Leaving the Vikings with?????????????????????????????????
skol asylum
Footballguy
Nick Foles for their first and fourth rounder.Pretty good article last "Con" is important for the "First part":
Biggest "fear".. They decide to let all 3 QB's hit the FA Market to go after Cousins.
After a week or two of "courting", Cousins chooses Denver and the other 3 already signed elsewhere.
Leaving the Vikings with?????????????????????????????????
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think Cousins is the first domino to drop in free agency so I doubt you'd need to worry about this. I do know you're just creating a "worst case scenario" type situation in your head, however.Pretty good article last "Con" is important for the "First part":
Biggest "fear".. They decide to let all 3 QB's hit the FA Market to go after Cousins.
After a week or two of "courting", Cousins chooses Denver and the other 3 already signed elsewhere.
Leaving the Vikings with?????????????????????????????????
snogger
Footballguy
Cousins would have all the power if multiple teams come calling as expected. I expect the Cardinals, Bronco's and maybe the Vikings as the top 3 that would chase him and he'd want to sign with.I think Cousins is the first domino to drop in free agency so I doubt you'd need to worry about this. I do know you're just creating a "worst case scenario" type situation in your head, however.Pretty good article last "Con" is important for the "First part":
Biggest "fear".. They decide to let all 3 QB's hit the FA Market to go after Cousins.
After a week or two of "courting", Cousins chooses Denver and the other 3 already signed elsewhere.
Leaving the Vikings with?????????????????????????????????
I think some teams like the Browns, Jets, Bills, etc. pretty much know they are out of the running for Cousins and will go after the next in line.
I wouldn't expect Cousins to decide on day one, unless there has already been some "behind closed doors"
talk with his agent.Thus, in this scenario, the Vikings would be taking a big chance that Cousins signs with them while letting the other 3 test the market..
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Well you have the legal tampering period first where teams will make their offers - I think he'll be the first "major" QB signing of the free agency period. But I surely could be wrong about that.Cousins would have all the power if multiple teams come calling as expected. I expect the Cardinals, Bronco's and maybe the Vikings as the top 3 that would chase him and he'd want to sign with.
I think some teams like the Browns, Jets, Bills, etc. pretty much know they are out of the running for Cousins and will go after the next in line.
I wouldn't expect Cousins to decide on day one, unless there has already been some "behind closed doors"
Thus, in this scenario, the Vikings would be taking a big chance that Cousins signs with them while letting the other 3 test the market..
Also the Cards with only $9MM cap space available are unlikely to be players - and I would not count the Jets out. They have $90+MM in cap space, Cousins has a relationship with their OC Bates, and they are not far away at all with their cap space, 1.06 and two seconds to add. Plus if he can lead the Jets to respectability there's a whole new market of endorsements available to him.
(I think) The Vikes could always put the transition tag on one of their QBs which would give them the right to match it if they are offered a contract somewhere else.
skol asylum
Footballguy
I keep going back and forth on Cousins. I guess I just haven't watched him that much. Is really going to be the guy that becomes a long term solution? I think Keenum will demand too much and should probably be left to walk. I just don't believe in Teddy. Would love to be wrong there. I really wish Bradford could stay healthy because I think he can be really special. I dunno. If Cousins goes to the Jets or something early, maybe stick.with Bradford, Sloter, and a rookie. Maybe Tyrod Taylor if he comes cheap as another backup option.
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snogger
Footballguy
I think the Browns might make a stronger run for Cousins than a lot of people think. They have a ton of cap space, some nice young talent, and the #1 and #4 overall pick this year. And a good offensive mind in Todd Haley at OC. If they have him behind center with Saquon Barkley at running back and Coleman and Gordon at receiver, that's a potent offense (which might appeal to Cousins). They might be about finished with the draft-a-QB-early-and-pray approach. They've had zero success with that business model.Cousins would have all the power if multiple teams come calling as expected. I expect the Cardinals, Bronco's and maybe the Vikings as the top 3 that would chase him and he'd want to sign with.
I think some teams like the Browns, Jets, Bills, etc. pretty much know they are out of the running for Cousins and will go after the next in line.
I wouldn't expect Cousins to decide on day one, unless there has already been some "behind closed doors"
Thus, in this scenario, the Vikings would be taking a big chance that Cousins signs with them while letting the other 3 test the market..
BigJim®
Footballguy
I've assumed all along that the Brown's will make a strong run. It really comes down to how Cousins views the world. Cleveland no doubt will offer more money and a vision moving on from 0-16, unproven personnel decisions and recent management instability. Vikes will offer less money but proven participation in the 2017 NFC title game, an established young core and management stability. Cousins seems like a bright guy. Even if he buys the Cleveland vision, he's probably ruling out playoffs for 2 years, and SB contention for the duration of a 4 year deal. Even 6-10 is a huge leap from where the Browns are.
snogger
Footballguy
Cousin has stated before he wants to play for a contender.. Not that he couldn't decide Money is better then contending.
But I'd expect him to shoot the Browns down the second they say "Hi Kirk, this is the Cleveland..."
Biabreakable
Footballguy
That would suck.snogger said:Pretty good article last "Con" is important for the "First part":
Biggest "fear".. They decide to let all 3 QB's hit the FA Market to go after Cousins.
After a week or two of "courting", Cousins chooses Denver and the other 3 already signed elsewhere.
Leaving the Vikings with?????????????????????????????????
What do you guys think of Lamar Jackson?
Its early, but it seems like he might fall far enough for the Vikings 1st round pick to be close to being able to draft him.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Biabreakable
Footballguy
BigJim®
Footballguy
I'm skeptical of Jackson because I'm just done dealing with overly mobile QBs. Sure you will have your Deshaun Watson and Russell Wilson types who like the pocket, but JMHO most of this ilk rely on their legs too much with the step up to the NFL, and it impedes development as an NFL QB, aside from dramatically increasing risk of injury.
I'm generally opposed to using early pick on a prospect, and needing a 3-5 year process to determine if it was a success or failure. An otherwise contending team should not risk that, and there are other QB options it should pursue to allow use of draft picks for other positions.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I understand the fear, but think it unlikely the team with $60MM to spend becomes the last team standing even in a thin FA chase. Maybe a team like Denver or Arizona, who is trying hard to make cap space, but unlikely the team who has the space to move. I'd expect the Vikes to be the target team in almost every single discussion. Also, I don't think this is a particularly thin FA year (Cousins, McCarron, Bridgewater(?), Bradford, Keenum, maybe Bortles, maybe Taylor) and incoming rookies (Mayfield, Rosen, Allen, Darnold, Jackson) taking some of the openings. I think it's far more likely that a FA QB's run out of team options vs. teams running out of quarterback options.snogger said:Biggest "fear".. They decide to let all 3 QB's hit the FA Market to go after Cousins.
After a week or two of "courting", Cousins chooses Denver and the other 3 already signed elsewhere.
Leaving the Vikings with?????????????????????????????????
mr roboto
Footballguy
I have to admit I didn’t watch him this last year but from a few games I saw the previous year...
Wasnt he a freak athlete who wasn’t a great pocket passer? Also pretty skinny?
ETA after reading further yes but seems to have all the arm strength/vision tools to become a good passer. Needs footwork and some coaching.
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FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
The QB that I like in the draft is Mason Rudolph. I think he has a ton of NFL potential...not sure about using a first rounder on him but I think he would be a good add.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Section 2. Physically Unable to Perform: Any player placed on a Physically Unable to Perform list (“PUP”) will be paid his full Paragraph 5 Salary while on such list. His con-tract will not be tolled for the period he is on PUP, except in the last year of his contract, when the player’s contract will be tolled if he is still physically unable to perform his football services as of the sixth regular season game.
The bolded is weird language because by virtue of being on PUP, he's not eligible to be removed. And "as of" means when the 6th game happens. So he's on the Physically Unable list "as of" the 6th game. The player will contend he was "Physically Able" but because he was on the list wasn't eligible by rule only.
It's similar to what McCarron just won. He was on the Non-Football Injury list. He contended that he was on it "longer than necessary" because he was recovered from that injury long before the team removed him. That was a tiny bit different because MIN has no option to remove TBW, but the argument is still valid - "just because I was ineligible by rule does not mean I was Physically Unable".
BigJim®
Footballguy
Of course it is worth chasing. We knew going in this would be the case given the $100MM+ cap space Cleveland has. Heck they brought on Brock O last year and paid him $15MM just to release him right away. The Vikes still have the same exact situation, and that is we are bringing a competitor to the table, and want you to help keep this a contender. If Cousins is all about the benjamins, we will of course lose and frankly I'm fine with a QB going elsewhere if he'd only come to the team in a 'ruin the future' way.lots of talk out there that Denver is pushing hard but...... the Jets are going to offer Cousinsmoney...
They are talking $150 Million GUARANTEED over 5 years
Not worth chasing if that is the case.
BigJim®
Footballguy
No, it's not similar to McCarron, at all. What you describe above is not ambiguous wording, but written in a way that would always toll for PUP (which to your point, doesn't seem right but it is what it is). That's how it is written. You can say it doesn't make sense, needs to be corrected to reflect actual intent, whatever. That is a future fix that does not change the application of clear wording today.
The reason McCarron is a FA is the Bengals were deemed to have placed him on non-football injury list even though he had a football injury. Night and day to apply the wrong designation to hold a player hostage vs. having an entirely applicable straight forward rule maybe not make sense.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
That is not accurate. He was injured from college, and any injury not suffered in NFL activity, even college football, is an NFI. McCarron's contention was that the Bengals didn't have cause to keep him there that long.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21286767/aj-mccarron-files-grievance-vs-cincinnati-bengals-wants-unrestricted-free-agent-2018
"In McCarron's opinion, he was healthy enough to come off the NFI list during training camp, which would have counted his rookie year towards free agency. But Cincinnati didn't add McCarron to its active roster until Dec. 9, meaning it was too late for him to accrue a season toward his free agency."
And you're right, it's not ambiguous, I didn't use that word. It very clearly says that TBW's contract would not toll unless he is "if he is still physically unable to perform his football services as of the sixth regular season game". He's going contend he was, and that him being on the list doesn't prove otherwise. Just like AJ McCarron contended - that just because he was on the NFI didn't mean he was still injured from the original NFI.
Every year there are tons of guys on IR that have to wait at least 8 weeks due to the rule but are physically ready to go before that. And you can bet your ### that if being on IR cost them money or accrued seasons there would be a ton more grievance but being on IR is considered Full Pay Status and, unless the player signed a split contract, the player is paid his full salary.
BigJim®
Footballguy
To each his own. You're comparing misconduct (whether NFI should have been applied at all) to something that is not misconduct at all (whether Teddy was sufficiently healed by week 6, despite needing to remain inactive unfder PUP rules). If the argument is Bridgewater should be allowed to present medical evidence that he was physically able to play as of week 6, I agree with that. He should, just like the Vikings should be allowed to introduce the opinion of their medical team. The only way this would be analogous would be if there was question about the designation of PUP for a Teddy who was able to play in week 1, which aren;t the facts. In the end, I'm not aware of any claim the Vikes did something wrong.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
That wasn't McCarron's contention.
I'm not claiming the Vikings did anything wrong and I don't think anyone else is either, I was just answering your question about the argument about why he might not be under contract. There's not even a grievance filed at this point, I think it's just a talking point, and Spielman has said that's going to be a league/NFLPA issue, not a Vikings issue. I would assume it would be the NFL that would be publishing a list of FA's to all teams, so it would probably be them making the declaration and if TBW wants to dispute it it would be with the league, not the team. The team couldn't do anything about it - he was on the list and ineligible to be taken off.
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BigJim®
Footballguy
Ok, I'm just not following. The quote you gave in a prior reply was "In McCarron's opinion, he was healthy enough to come off the NFI list during training camp," That translates to "Cincinnati should not have had an NFI designation on me at all during regular season, and did so just to toll my deal." Now, it's been radio silence re: Bridgewater case, but I think it was generally known his injury was far from healed on week 1. If so, the Vikes were fine to apply the PUP, and by rule it was on him for 6 weeks - and the only open question is where his health was as of week 6. I'd have to hear more factual details to compare that to what Cincy did.
Heatman
Footballguy
Agreed, Cousins would be better but 1 player can't win a championship alone. Many say QB is the only need the Vikings have but I disagree. They need O-line and D-line help first and foremost imo.lots of talk out there that Denver is pushing hard but...... the Jets are going to offer Cousins
They are talking $150 Million GUARANTEED over 5 years
Not worth chasing if that is the case.
I'd make the case, it might not be worth chasing at all. Cousins is a good QB, but frankly, other than fantasy points, what makes him better than Bradford? Even if he is, he's certainly not double the money better.lots of talk out there that Denver is pushing hard but...... the Jets are going to offer Cousins
They are talking $150 Million GUARANTEED over 5 years
Not worth chasing if that is the case.
Health. That is a huge concern with Bradford and why I wouldn't want to rely on him or pay anywhere near what he will probably be asking for. His knee is shot and will be a chronic problem and it would not surprise me if he never plays a 16 game season.
Agreed on Bradford's health. My point was that Sam Bradford, if he played 16 games, isn't worth anywhere near the money being talked about for Cousins, and when both are healthy, I don't think it can clearly be said that Cousins is a better player.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I’m not sure that is true. Bradford looked great in the 1st game, and had he even played 80% as well through 16 games he’d be in the same conversation. But, he missed 15, without a blown ACL, Achilles or broken bone. That’s downright scary. His limited mobility becomes an even greater liability, and there you go.
I agree that I wouldn't want to be relying 100% on Bradford. Maybe I shouldn't have even brought him up. The point I was trying to make, is I'm not sure Cousins would be an upgrade from what Keenum was, or what Bradford would have been if healthy, or even what Bradford was in 2016.
ETA: The guy I'd be interested in if I were the Vikings, would be Tyrod Taylor. Big plays, and avoids turnovers, and likely comes at 10 million less than Cousins. Plus, he's been doing it with a far inferior supporting cast than Cousins.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Big plays for Taylor? He doesn’t even look at throwing to WRs.
ETA: the far inferior cast comment seems a bit off also. He’s played with McCoy, Clay, Watkins, Woods, Benjamin, Matthews and second round pick Zay Jones since he’s been there. That’s far from a bad supporting cast.
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He does when he has good ones. Watkins made lots of big plays whenever he was healthy. Diggs and Thielen would be gigantic upgrades over anything he had last year in Buffalo. Plus, big plays in the running game, both by Taylor himself, and the threat of Taylor making even bigger holes for Cook/Murray and helping make a still not very good o-line look better than it is.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He’s not a good QB at all. Ask Buffalo fans who watch him every week. He can run well, sure.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Man, I should apparently be Tyrod's agent. I think he's clearly a better QB than everyone else seems to. I think he's better than Cousins straight up, without even counting the discount. I also think Alex Smith is better than Cousins too. So maybe my point is as simple as, I don't think Kirk Cousins is a QB that the Vikings, or any team, should be looking to pay franchise QB money. He's simply not a great QB.
I have no issues whatsoever if the Vikings stay put with Keenum, I really don't think QB has been an issue for them of late. All 3 of their current free agents played pretty well for them. As long as they don't bring in McCarron, they should be fine.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
While I am for the Vikings allocating a higher percentage of their total cap space towards the QB position, and I do think Cousins is the best QB option for the Vikings to pursue, there is a limit to what I think that percentage should be. I am not exactly sure what that limit should be, 20% of the total cap? Maybe I could see pushing that to 22% but at some point it is too much money and that damages the ability of the team to be strong in other areas.
The Vikings are not just a QB away. The defensive line aside from Hunter is getting old. They are playing well still but depth and replacements are very needed there. Hunter is the only good young defensive lineman who has started. I thought Bower showed some nice things in preseason but he was only active in one game and then back inactive once Griffen recovered, which Griffen did not play as well dealing with a foot injury in the later part of the season.
The offensive line made vast improvement in only one season, things went better there than I ever expected. There are still holes in the offensive line that need to be filled, especially if Joe Berger does retire as expected. It seems the Vikings may have moved Remmers to guard now and while Hill played ok I think they could do better at right tackle than him, even if he is better than Remmers. Riley Reiff and Pat Elflien are the only proven starters in my view if Berger does retire.
But that is a key component to the worth of a QB. Bradford has shown he cannot play 16 games and has a chronic knee issue that isn't going away. He has no mobility. I would put Bradford (factoring in all aspects) well below Cousins as a QB at this point.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I'm fine with that, just don't see why it is so.
Since becoming a starter, Tyrod has a YPA of 7.2, a passer rating of 92 and a 51-16 TD-INT ratio. He also has averaged 525-5 on the ground at over 5 YPC.
I'll admit its ugly, but its also effective.
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mr roboto
Footballguy
Here’s the thing...
We could be a playoff team/contender with Teddy, Tyrod, Case or a guy like McCarron. But I’m sick of being one great quarterback away from a SB.
The only guy out there I’m thinking might do it is Cousins.
But why? Why is Cousins that guy? Since 2015:
Taylor has averaged: 17-5 TD/INT ratio 92 pass rating 7.2 YPA 500-5 rushing 5 fumbles
Cousins has averaged: 27-12 TD/INT 97 pass rating 7.7 YPA 100-4 rushing 10 fumbles
Vikings QB has averaged: 18-7 TD/INT 95 pass rating 7.2 YPA 135-1 rushing 6 fumbles
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Sam Bradford played in 15 games in 2016. The only game he missed was week one where the Vikings started Shawn Hill as they had just traded for Bradford a week prior to this.Gally said:
Now the injury risk and chronic problems with the knee may prevent him from playing a full season, but then maybe not as he did stay healthy for all of 2016 not so long ago.
There is certainly risk though, and because of that risk I would expect Bradford contract demands to be a bit lower.
The lack of mobility will always be an issue though I think. It is part of why he needs to get rid of the ball so quickly, which for the most part is something that I want a QB to do, but it can lead to more check downs, which isn't the end of the world, you want the QB to attempt high percentage plays. It just isn't what you want on 3rd down.
I still like Sam Bradford if Cousins isn't an option. I am on the fence between Bradford and Keenum as far as who I prefer more. I definitely like the way Bradford throws the ball much better than Keenum. However the mobility of Keenum and not the same level of injury risk makes them pretty even in my view.
