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Miss America- Scrapping swimsuit competition, no longer judging on looks (1 Viewer)

On a serious note though @shadyridr , can you elaborate specifically what you mean by "I hate what is happening in this country"?

 
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Joe Bryant said:
On a serious note though @shadyridr , can you elaborate specifically what you mean by "I hate what is happening in this country"?
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Sure

It just seems like we have gone over the line of political correctness to the point of being ridiculous now. Nobody forced these women to join pageants. These were basically beauty contests. If they are not about looks anymore they should just be cancelled.

I saw a story this morning about possibly passing a bill adding a third option to gender on birth certificates now. Like I said we have gone over the line of pc to the point of being silly in this country. They should make a sequel to Idiocracy about the world becoming too PC.

 
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Also dropping evening gowns...from previous link by OP, let's see where they go with the fashions.  I suppose they could still select an evening gown if they want:

Instead of evening gowns, contestants will be asked to wear something that portrays their personal style and makes them feel confident.
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shadyridr said:
Sure

It just seems like we have gone over the line of political correctness to the point of being ridiculous now. Nobody forced these women to join pageants. These were basically beauty contests. If they are not about looks anymore they should just be cancelled.

I saw a story this morning about possibly passing a bill adding a third option to gender on birth certificates now. Like I said we have gone over the line of pc to the point of being silly in this country. They should make a sequel to Idiocracy about the world becoming too PC.
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Of course it should just be cancelled.

But I'm curious- you seem to think this is all leading us down some sort of horrible path.  What direct negative consequences do you foresee?  Not talking about indirect stuff like "angry white people who fear change will elect a corrupt moron as president as a form of backlash."  You seem to have something else in mind, yes?  Can you walk me through it?  Like "if we change/cancel Miss America, ____ bad thing will happen as a result"?

 
shadyridr said:
Sure

It just seems like we have gone over the line of political correctness to the point of being ridiculous now. Nobody forced these women to join pageants. These were basically beauty contests. If they are not about looks anymore they should just be cancelled.

I saw a story this morning about possibly passing a bill adding a third option to gender on birth certificates now. Like I said we have gone over the line of pc to the point of being silly in this country. They should make a sequel to Idiocracy about the world becoming too PC.
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Please tell me this a joke about adding a 3rd option to gender on birth certificates! The absolute lunacy this country has gone to is beyond embarrassment.

 
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I can't speak for shady or anyone else. Here's what these kinds of societal changes make me think about:

What kinds of things that are totally accepted by practically everyone TODAY will be seen as backwards and shameful in a generation? I mean, stuff that RIGHT NOW in June 2018 Tobias and timschochet and roadkill AND jon_mx and Hell Toupee and Cowboysfan ALL totally agree are completely unobjectionable and OK. Things that have almost no detractors** in 2018 from either side of the political aisle, but will be seen as bigoted, messed-up, old-white-man-think in 2050?

Maybe some folks are more comfortable with flapping-in-the-wind change than others. But don't some of you find the constant shifting of the edges of right and wrong somewhat unsettling in an abstract way (while acknowledging no harm or concern to one's own life)?

** I figure no concept bats quite 1.000.

 
Doug B said:
I can't speak for shady or anyone else. Here's what these kinds of societal changes make me think about:

What kinds of things that are totally accepted by practically everyone TODAY will be seen as backwards and shameful in a generation? I mean, stuff that RIGHT NOW in June 2018 Tobias and timschochet and roadkill AND jon_mx and Hell Toupee and Cowboysfan ALL totally agree are completely unobjectionable and OK. Things that have almost no detractors** in 2018 from either side of the political aisle, but will be seen as bigoted, messed-up, old-white-man-think in 2050?

Maybe some folks are more comfortable with flapping-in-the-wind change than others. But don't some of you find the constant shifting of the edges of right and wrong somewhat unsettling in an abstract way (while acknowledging no harm or concern to one's own life)?

** I figure no concept bats quite 1.000.
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This has literally been happening throughout human history.  And people have been complaining about it throughout human history. It's where we get words like "progressive," "conservative," and "reactionary."  Sometimes the engines of progress move a little too fast, or overreach a bit, but we've always moved in the right direction in the long run and I have no reason to think that will change.

To flip your question around- go back forty years ago and consider things that were totally accepted then but are now seen as backwards and shameful. Do you see anything you'd like to revert to? Anything we lost along the way that's worth going back and recovering?

 
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shadyridr said:
Donald Trump
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I already addressed this of course, and you ignored it by cutting it out of your reply (of course).

But even I grant you that ... so what?  60 million fools elected him before this, and as you're seeing now he's powerless to stop stuff like this- if anything he's accelerated the pace (see #MeToo, eg). People who cut their noses off to spite their face can't be reasoned with. And even if they could, "halt progress or we'll keep electing reactionary bigots" is not a deal that interests me or any other progressive.

 
TobiasFunke said:
To flip your question around- go back forty years ago and consider things that were totally accepted then but are now seen as backwards and shameful. Do you see anything you'd like to revert to? Anything we lost along the way that's worth going back and recovering?
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Not talking about reversion. Talking about how from the perspective of future society, pretty much all of us 2018-ers  are incorrect or bigoted on some concept or another in the present -- society just hasn't outed us yet. Isn't that the logical corollary? "Good" people will flip to "bad" like turning over a playing card?

Another way to approach it: because of the way society progresses, as you've explained it ... can any person be anything but hypocritical and incorrect in the present? Because something we approve of heartily -- something perhaps that we see right now as an overall societal good -- will get denounced eventually.

Succinctly -- when society moves quickly, where does moral standing or moral high ground come from? Who or what is the standard in 2018, and what happens when that person or concept becomes the pariah of 2050?

 
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TobiasFunke said:
This has literally been happening throughout human history.  And people have been complaining about it throughout human history. It's where we get words like "progressive," "conservative," and "reactionary."  Sometimes the engines of progress move a little too fast, or overreach a bit, but we've always moved in the right direction in the long run and I have no reason to think that will change.

To flip your question around- go back forty years ago and consider things that were totally accepted then but are now seen as backwards and shameful. Do you see anything you'd like to revert to? Anything we lost along the way that's worth going back and recovering?
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The definition of an NFL catch.

 
Why bother with them then?  We already have America's got talent. 

I think they serve no useful purpose but you have other contests where women wear next to nothing to turn to like volleyball and swimming surfing etc.  Really even those crossfit games. 

If your game is bikini comps those are getting super popular as a 'sport' now that they got them split by drugs and no drugs. Take your pick. 

 
Doug B said:
Not talking about reversion. Talking about how from the perspective of future society, pretty much all of us 2018-ers  are incorrect or bigoted on some concept or another in the present -- society just hasn't outed us yet. Isn't that the logical corollary? "Good" people will flip to "bad" like turning over a playing card?

Another way to approach it: because of the way society progresses, as you've explained it ... can any person be anything but hypocritical and incorrect in the present? Because something we approve of heartily -- something perhaps that we see right now as an overall societal good -- will get denounced eventually.

Succinctly -- when society moves quickly, where does moral standing or moral high ground come from? Who or what is the standard in 2018, and what happens when that person or concept becomes the pariah of 2050?
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That's now how I'd put it. I'd say we grow, as individuals and as a collective.

I have no doubt that there's stuff I said and perhaps even did back in college that would be objectionable now. But I don't say or do those things any more.  That doesn't make me (or any of us) a hypocrite, that just makes me someone who is flawed but capable of growth. And that describes literally everyone ... or at least it should.  Some people seem to be fighting the second part.

By way of example- for all the concern about the Me Too movement, is there a single case of someone who did something that society condoned at the time- like say for example hitting on or objectifying women in the workplace in a way that was common or accepted at the time- and who admitted their past behavior was no longer acceptable and promised to do better, who has nevertheless had to face serious consequences?  Even one person who fits that description?

 
TobiasFunke said:
Anything we lost along the way that's worth going back and recovering?
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Actually, after some thought ... I can think of something kind of ethereal that I think it's a shame we've lost as a society: a kind of a live-and-let-live attitude about many peripheral social-justice issues. I used "peripheral" to specifically exclude things that would affect equal treatment under the law, or equality of opportunity or anything like that.

An example would be that in the 1980s, say, the ideal of "treating everyone equally" was seen as an unquestioned positive and something everyone should strive for in the interest of fairness. In the social media era, aiming to "treat everyone equally" is now seen as a social ill, and the people that aim for equal treatment as an interpersonal goal are treated as messed-up, backwards and bigoted "bad people" today. I understand the academic arguments about why this has shifted, but I haven't grokked them emotionally -- and I'm not sure that I can. I don't feel an actual pull to treat people in a way differently than the way I learned as a post-1964 kid in the 1970s-80s. I feel like the lessons I learned coming up in how to deal with people are still valuable -- and correct -- today.

Anyway. Not much to do with the OP ... but I don't think a general philosophical uneasiness over society's shifting sands is the hallmark of a bad human being. And to clarify: I don't mean "philosophical uneasiness" to mean "wanting things back to what they were in the 1950s!" It's more like questioning oneself internally about whether one has been misled all one's life, especially by adults in authority who truly seemed good and fairminded.

 
TobiasFunke said:
By way of example- for all the concern about the Me Too movement, is there a single case of someone who did something that society condoned at the time- like say for example hitting on or objectifying women in the workplace in a way that was common or accepted at the time- and who admitted their past behavior was no longer acceptable and promised to do better, who has nevertheless had to face serious consequences?  Even one person who fits that description?
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Kind of a side issue to what I'm thinking about ... but to answer: I can't think of anyone.

 
irish eyes said:
Please tell me this a joke about adding a 3rd option to gender on birth certificates! The absolute lunacy this country has gone to is beyond embarrassment.
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Just yesterday I needed to send a copy of my daughter's NJ-issued birth certificate to my insurance company, and I noticed that there was a third box under gender for "not yet determined". Now I'm not sure if that's there for the reason being discussed here or if it's some kind of medical classification in the event of a rare case of ambiguity, but since she was born last year I thought it was pretty interesting.

 
I wish them luck with their new format.  I can foresee some sponsorship issues as Revlon doesn't sell many inner beauty products.  I can also foresee some ratings challenges, but I wish them well.

 
Doug B said:
Actually, after some thought ... I can think of something kind of ethereal that I think it's a shame we've lost as a society: a kind of a live-and-let-live attitude about many peripheral social-justice issues. I used "peripheral" to specifically exclude things that would affect equal treatment under the law, or equality of opportunity or anything like that.

An example would be that in the 1980s, say, the ideal of "treating everyone equally" was seen as an unquestioned positive and something everyone should strive for in the interest of fairness. In the social media era, aiming to "treat everyone equally" is now seen as a social ill, and the people that aim for equal treatment as an interpersonal goal are treated as messed-up, backwards and bigoted "bad people" today. I understand the academic arguments about why this has shifted, but I haven't grokked them emotionally -- and I'm not sure that I can. I don't feel an actual pull to treat people in a way differently than the way I learned as a post-1964 kid in the 1970s-80s. I feel like the lessons I learned coming up in how to deal with people are still valuable -- and correct -- today.

Anyway. Not much to do with the OP ... but I don't think a general philosophical uneasiness over society's shifting sands is the hallmark of a bad human being. And to clarify: I don't mean "philosophical uneasiness" to mean "wanting things back to what they were in the 1950s!" It's more like questioning oneself internally about whether one has been misled all one's life, especially by adults in authority who truly seemed good and fairminded.
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I disagree with this. I would say there are people who use "treat everyone equally" as a thinly veiled pretext to ignoring history and context, and those people are deservedly criticized for that. But if someone simply said "I want to treat everyone equally" as a personal goal nobody would have a problem with it. By contrast, if someone said for example "I think we should get rid of the laws that protect against housing discrimination because we should treat everyone equally," that would be rightly criticized as a silly pie-in-the-sky perspective that ignores obvious realities.

 
TobiasFunke said:
That's now how I'd put it. I'd say we grow, as individuals and as a collective.
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This is something that seems to differ among people: At a certain point, most people seem to stop growing socially. Their concepts of right/wrong get fully baked in, and that's it. Maybe not everyone goes through this.

I can understand bring open to social growth to a point, but it seems unrealistic for people to just keep shifting their internal mindset all the way through to the grave. It's a great goal, I just don't think many people can stay that open-minded throughout their entire lives. The corollary, then, is that I feel some people get a pass on not internally feeling 2018 social norms so long as they're not working to deny other people civil rights -- perhaps expressible as "freedom of one's own headspace".

Admittedly, identification of people who get those passes and who don't is very much arbitrary. And again, not much to do with the OP directly.

 
Doug B said:
I can't speak for shady or anyone else. Here's what these kinds of societal changes make me think about:

What kinds of things that are totally accepted by practically everyone TODAY will be seen as backwards and shameful in a generation? I mean, stuff that RIGHT NOW in June 2018 Tobias and timschochet and roadkill AND jon_mx and Hell Toupee and Cowboysfan ALL totally agree are completely unobjectionable and OK. Things that have almost no detractors** in 2018 from either side of the political aisle, but will be seen as bigoted, messed-up, old-white-man-think in 2050?

Maybe some folks are more comfortable with flapping-in-the-wind change than others. But don't some of you find the constant shifting of the edges of right and wrong somewhat unsettling in an abstract way (while acknowledging no harm or concern to one's own life)?

** I figure no concept bats quite 1.000.
Click to expand...


I don't know if these totally fit but they came to mind:

Bringing junk food like donuts to work.

Eating "real" meat.

Humans driving cars.

 
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That one guy said:
Is the Miss America thing large enough to be considered “societal”?
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The change to the Miss America contest is not a driver of societal change, but is certainly a sign of the times. Just for starters, it casts an ill light on the whole Ms. Universe edifice -- how do those contests justify themselves now? Yet wider society wasn't even considering this stuff back, say, when the iPhone was first released.

 
Doug B said:
Succinctly -- when society moves quickly, where does moral standing or moral high ground come from? Who or what is the standard in 2018, and what happens when that person or concept becomes the pariah of 2050?
Click to expand...
One world government. It has been prophesied. Interestingly enough, i believe it will be the left that pushes for it. 2050 may be too soon though. 

 
Doug B said:
I can't speak for shady or anyone else. Here's what these kinds of societal changes make me think about:

What kinds of things that are totally accepted by practically everyone TODAY will be seen as backwards and shameful in a generation? I mean, stuff that RIGHT NOW in June 2018 Tobias and timschochet and roadkill AND jon_mx and Hell Toupee and Cowboysfan ALL totally agree are completely unobjectionable and OK. Things that have almost no detractors** in 2018 from either side of the political aisle, but will be seen as bigoted, messed-up, old-white-man-think in 2050?

Maybe some folks are more comfortable with flapping-in-the-wind change than others. But don't some of you find the constant shifting of the edges of right and wrong somewhat unsettling in an abstract way (while acknowledging no harm or concern to one's own life)?

** I figure no concept bats quite 1.000.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily bigoted, but I can imagine a future in 2050 when the prevalence of violence in entertainment is seen as backwards and shameful.

 
well for one,  they aren't going to judge women on their appearance.....for a competition that's been based primarily on appearance for the last oh 50 years or so.

its just mind numbingly stupid.   if the judging on appearances is so harmful to our collective psyche just end the stupid thing.    

 
tommyboy said:
well for one,  they aren't going to judge women on their appearance.....for a competition that's been based primarily on appearance for the last oh 50 years or so.

its just mind numbingly stupid.   if the judging on appearances is so harmful to our collective psyche just end the stupid thing.    
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I agree.  I thought it was a beauty pageant.  If I want a brains pageant, I can watch Jeopardy!  

I would just like to keep creepers out of the dressing rooms.

 
"Well Jack, you didn't win any of the challenges, you freaked out when you had to eat bugs, and you cried at night because you had to sleep outside, But.....you are a really nice guy and so you sir are the new Champion of Survivor 2019!!!"

 
TobiasFunke said:
This has literally been happening throughout human history.  And people have been complaining about it throughout human history. It's where we get words like "progressive," "conservative," and "reactionary."  Sometimes the engines of progress move a little too fast, or overreach a bit, but we've always moved in the right direction in the long run and I have no reason to think that will change.

To flip your question around- go back forty years ago and consider things that were totally accepted then but are now seen as backwards and shameful. Do you see anything you'd like to revert to? Anything we lost along the way that's worth going back and recovering?
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were there more two parent homes 40 years ago or today?  I think they seem like a concept generally worth preserving.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
I wish them luck with their new format.  I can foresee some sponsorship issues as Revlon doesn't sell many inner beauty products.  I can also foresee some ratings challenges, but I wish them well.
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Ratings have been dropping every year for the last 4-5 years. Probably only lasts a few more years.  Biggest drama seems to be around the questions for the finalists.

 
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This isn't a huge deal as an event, I don't know any straight dudes who watched this, maybe cheesecake like this was pivotal jack material in the Bob Hope era but how do these granny panties suits compete with pornhub on your phone anyway?

But it does seem a thought police type of thing to regulate and govern what people individually think is attractive.  Guys like hot girls, always have, and presumably always will and given how much effort girls put into looking hot, they like to look and feel hot regardless of what asexual trolls are wearing ironic glasses and frumpy sweaters in Bushwick.  

Of course, people want to trend toward normalizing nonsense like this https://medium.com/@allisawash/about-your-####ty-no-trans-dating-policy-1314c2039ced

 
TobiasFunke said:
This has literally been happening throughout human history.  And people have been complaining about it throughout human history. It's where we get words like "progressive," "conservative," and "reactionary."  Sometimes the engines of progress move a little too fast, or overreach a bit, but we've always moved in the right direction in the long run and I have no reason to think that will change.

To flip your question around- go back forty years ago and consider things that were totally accepted then but are now seen as backwards and shameful. Do you see anything you'd like to revert to? Anything we lost along the way that's worth going back and recovering?
Click to expand...
Whose definition of moving in the right direction? Yours? Some people (me) don't agree with your definition.

 
TobiasFunke said:
This has literally been happening throughout human history.  And people have been complaining about it throughout human history. It's where we get words like "progressive," "conservative," and "reactionary."  Sometimes the engines of progress move a little too fast, or overreach a bit, but we've always moved in the right direction in the long run and I have no reason to think that will change.

To flip your question around- go back forty years ago and consider things that were totally accepted then but are now seen as backwards and shameful. Do you see anything you'd like to revert to? Anything we lost along the way that's worth going back and recovering?
Click to expand...
sometimes the other team is actually better than yours so they get a big ### trophy....and you don't get ####.....

America's balls out of the PC purse....

 
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Smack Tripper said:
This isn't a huge deal as an event, I don't know any straight dudes who watched this, maybe cheesecake like this was pivotal jack material in the Bob Hope era but how do these granny panties suits compete with pornhub on your phone anyway?

But it does seem a thought police type of thing to regulate and govern what people individually think is attractive.  Guys like hot girls, always have, and presumably always will and given how much effort girls put into looking hot, they like to look and feel hot regardless of what asexual trolls are wearing ironic glasses and frumpy sweaters in Bushwick.  

Of course, people want to trend toward normalizing nonsense like this https://medium.com/@allisawash/about-your-####ty-no-trans-dating-policy-1314c2039ced
Click to expand...
How exactly is it thought police if a private entity that has a competition decides to change its format?

Also, girls like hot guys too. Always have. Why do you think there's no Mister America similar in format to Miss America?  Whatever your answer may be, I suspect it also doubles as an explanation for why getting rid of this kind of nonsense constitutes progress.

 
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