Missing Submarine Viewing Titanic Wreckage (1 Viewer)

[Galileo]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

 

[Mister CIA]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

Morse code on a SONAR would be my guess.

 

[Ilov80s]

It’s like the tailor who beloved he could make a suit that opened up like a parachute and allow anyone to jump from a tall building and land safely. Despite literally everyone from experts to loved ones begging him not to do it, he went ahead and jumped to his death from the Eiffel Tower. He was the only person in the world who thought it could possibly work because he had convinced himself he could it and devoted his life to it

I saw a documentary on the Wright brothers that showed footage from that. Quite bizarre even for then.

That’s right there is video of the whole thing- kind of a morbid curiosity though the quality is so poor that we’ve all likely seen much worse. By all accounts a very sane and well liked person. He just had it set in his mind that this crazy idea was going to work because he had worked so hard at it.

 

[The General]

I can’t think of too many worse ways to die. Outside of them being saved of course the best outcome here is this device they are in failed and they died instantly.

Terrible and strange story.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

It’s like the tailor who beloved he could make a suit that opened up like a parachute and allow anyone to jump from a tall building and land safely. Despite literally everyone from experts to loved ones begging him not to do it, he went ahead and jumped to his death from the Eiffel Tower. He was the only person in the world who thought it could possibly work because he had convinced himself he could it and devoted his life to it

I saw a documentary on the Wright brothers that showed footage from that. Quite bizarre even for then.

That’s right there is video of the whole thing- kind of a morbid curiosity though the quality is so poor that we’ve all likely seen much worse. By all accounts a very sane and well liked person. He just had it set in his mind that this crazy idea was going to work because he had worked so hard at it.

This company has done 200 commercial dives and several to the Titanic (some sources say 2 dozen dives to the Titanic, some say 2 dozen clients transported on dives to the Titanic) as well as a bunch of test dives so it's not like this was just some theory. They've been doing it for years. One of the links in this thread was a youtube video of a news company riding along down to the Titanic and filming it/reporting on it.

 

[rockaction]

What a sad, sad event. I feel for the passengers, their loved ones, the CEO and crew, and everyone involved. Just a tragedy, really.

 

[massraider]

OceanGate was warned of potential for ‘catastrophic’ problems with Titanic mission.

Leaders in the submersible vehicle industry urged the company in 2018 to undergo a more stringent certification process.

www.nytimes.com

Leaders in the submersible craft industry were so worried about what they called the “experimental” approach of OceanGate, the company whose craft has gone missing, that they wrote a letter in 2018 warning of possible “catastrophic” problems with the submersible’s development and its planned mission to tour the Titanic wreckage.

The letter, obtained by The New York Times, was sent to OceanGate’s chief executive, Stockton Rush, by the Manned Underwater Vehicles committee of the Marine Technology Society, a 60-year-old trade group that aims to promote ocean technology and educate the public about it.

The signatories — more than three dozen people, including oceanographers, submersible company executives and deep-sea explorers — warned that they had “unanimous concern” about OceanGate’s development of the Titan submersible, the same craft that is now missing in the North Atlantic with five people on board.

 

[Ilov80s]

It’s like the tailor who beloved he could make a suit that opened up like a parachute and allow anyone to jump from a tall building and land safely. Despite literally everyone from experts to loved ones begging him not to do it, he went ahead and jumped to his death from the Eiffel Tower. He was the only person in the world who thought it could possibly work because he had convinced himself he could it and devoted his life to it

I saw a documentary on the Wright brothers that showed footage from that. Quite bizarre even for then.

That’s right there is video of the whole thing- kind of a morbid curiosity though the quality is so poor that we’ve all likely seen much worse. By all accounts a very sane and well liked person. He just had it set in his mind that this crazy idea was going to work because he had worked so hard at it.

This company has done 200 commercial dives and several to the Titanic (some sources say 2 dozen dives to the Titanic, some say 2 dozen clients transported on dives to the Titanic) as well as a bunch of test dives so it's not like this was just some theory. They've been doing it for years. One of the links in this thread was a youtube video of a news company riding along down to the Titanic and filming it/reporting on it.

NBC News says it was the 3rd Titanic trip. They have done a lot of dives but often at depths of 300 or 500 meters. This Titan was built for 4000 meters (and seems to go down to 13,000). It seems like this Titan ship is pretty new and has made maybe 10ish dives?

Not sure that is all totally accurate. It's a collection of things I was able to piece together on the internet so take it for what it's worth.

 

[massraider]

This Titan was built for 4000 meters (and seems to go down to 13,000). It seems like this Titan ship is pretty new and has made maybe 10ish dives?

According to the former employee, the viewport was only made for depth of 1500 meters.

By the way, the ship is at 13,000 feet, the vessel built for 1500-4000 meters. in some of these reports, they are not consistent with which measurement they are using.

 

[Ilov80s]

This Titan was built for 4000 meters (and seems to go down to 13,000). It seems like this Titan ship is pretty new and has made maybe 10ish dives?

According to the former employee, the viewport was only made for depth of 1500 meters.

By the way, the ship is at 13,000 feet, the vessel built for 1500-4000 meters. in some of these reports, they are not consistent with which measurement they are using.

Yeah it's pretty confusing to figure out and then there also seem to have been several lawsuits, regulatory issues, etc. Sad sad story.

 

[Faust]

'Tiny sub, big ocean': Why the Titanic submersible search is so challenging

 

[Dwayne Hoover]

Canadian aircraft reported hearing banging sounds in 30 minute intervals in area of the wreckage

 

[eoMMan]

They found the Titanic wreckage in the 80s?
I thought that was discovered a lot sooner than that.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

It’s like the tailor who beloved he could make a suit that opened up like a parachute and allow anyone to jump from a tall building and land safely. Despite literally everyone from experts to loved ones begging him not to do it, he went ahead and jumped to his death from the Eiffel Tower. He was the only person in the world who thought it could possibly work because he had convinced himself he could it and devoted his life to it

I saw a documentary on the Wright brothers that showed footage from that. Quite bizarre even for then.

That’s right there is video of the whole thing- kind of a morbid curiosity though the quality is so poor that we’ve all likely seen much worse. By all accounts a very sane and well liked person. He just had it set in his mind that this crazy idea was going to work because he had worked so hard at it.

This company has done 200 commercial dives and several to the Titanic (some sources say 2 dozen dives to the Titanic, some say 2 dozen clients transported on dives to the Titanic) as well as a bunch of test dives so it's not like this was just some theory. They've been doing it for years. One of the links in this thread was a youtube video of a news company riding along down to the Titanic and filming it/reporting on it.

NBC News says it was the 3rd Titanic trip. They have done a lot of dives but often at depths of 300 or 500 meters. This Titan was built for 4000 meters (and seems to go down to 13,000). It seems like this Titan ship is pretty new and has made maybe 10ish dives?

Not sure that is all totally accurate. It's a collection of things I was able to piece together on the internet so take it for what it's worth.

That's 13,000ft the Titanic is at, not meters. Titan was built for 4000m which is the same 13,000ft.

I agree that finding accurate info on its history is difficult. NBC News and NYT say it was the 3rd trip. Boston.com says they've taken two dozen people, and Reuters says two dozen trips down to the Titanic.

 

[Capella]

Canadian aircraft reported hearing banging sounds in 30 minute intervals in area of the wreckage

Yiiiiiiiikes

 

[Capella]

They found the Titanic wreckage in the 80s?
I thought that was discovered a lot sooner than that.

Took 73 years. They’ll never find this thing. What a disaster.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

A Canadian Aircraft, part of the enormous search mission looking for the missing Titanic tourists, heard 'banging' at 30-minute intervals in the area the submarine disappeared.

Specialist sonobuoys onboard the plane detected the sounds near the 'distress position' a Department of Homeland Security email seen by Rolling Stone revealed on Tuesday night.

Richard Garriot de Cayeux, President of The Explorers Club last night confirmed that 'there is cause for hope.'

In a statement posted to Twitter he said: 'We have much greater confidence that 1) There is cause for hope, based on data from the field - we understand that likely signs of life have been detected at the site.'

 

[BobbyLayne]

I can’t think of too many worse ways to die. Outside of them being saved of course the best outcome here is this device they are in failed and they died instantly.

Terrible and strange story.

Thresher vibes

though I was a surface guy, always had immense respect for bubbleheads

ten levels of crazy (good kind) over folks who jump out of perfectly good airplanes

***************

hoping for a miracle

edit - typo

***************

@Dwayne Hoover - I know there's not much appreciation for pedantic semantics during an ongoing crisis, but it's not a submarine, right? I believer submersible is the term.


Google tells me

A submarine has enough power to leave port and come back to port under its own power. But a submersible has more limited power and range. It needs a mother ship from which to launch, to return to, and for support and communications.

 

[kutta]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

Exactly. My company built a radio designed to penetrate to rock for use in caves. We used a 450 KHz signal, which is considered “medium frequency,” and even with relatively high power and a fairly big loop antenna could only get through 100 feet of rock. Really low frequencies (20 MHz) can penetrate further, but thousands of feet is extremely difficult. Our antenna designer is a retired naval antenna designer, and salt water is even harder than rock to penetrate. So they would need some serious equipment with some seriously high power to communicate that deep in the ocean. I’m no it even sure it’s possible.

 

[DJackson10]

Developing story here, a few billionaires decided to charter a sub to view the Titanic wreckage and now it is missing.

Titan sub implosion: What we know about catastrophic event

The Titan submersible suffered a violent collapse inwards deep underwater in the North Atlantic.

www.bbc.com

Estimations are that they have about 40 hours of air left. The sub could very well be below the depths that a rescue could even be attempted and that's IF it is even located. At best, they will need help from the military to save them.

Things are definitely looking grim at the moment. I can't understand paying money to do this, even if I had that kind of money, like this would be of zero interest to me. Still feel bad for them. can't imagine the sheer terror they are feeling if they are still alive at the moment.

The rest of the internet does not have too much compassion, if you want to see a lot of callous and sarcastic comments about it, Twitter is a good source.

My GF's dad works on subs in the NAVY and home for a month from GUAM. He was talking to his brother my GF's uncle about this. The sub is Screwed if they haven't found them by now they won't if it's underwater. At that depth a rescue mission at this point would take too long to get to them and no one has the tech to really pull this thing up.

 

[DJackson10]

Even if you found it how would you get it to the surface?

The only way they are making it out of this (assuming they are still alive) is if we get an Abyss type ending.

Nope GF dad works on Subs in the NAVY he said at that depth in the ocean no one has the tech to pull them out. Same reasons why the Titanic hasn't been brought to the surface either.

 

[Runkle]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

Exactly. My company built a radio designed to penetrate to rock for use in caves. We used a 450 MHz signal, which is considered “medium frequency,” and even with relatively high power and a fairly big loop antenna could only get through 100 feet of rock. Really low frequencies (20 MHz) can penetrate further, but thousands of feet is extremely difficult. Our antenna designer is a retired naval antenna designer, and salt water is even harder than rock to penetrate. So they would need some serious equipment with some seriously high power to communicate that deep in the ocean. I’m no it even sure it’s possible.

I read one transmitter the Navy uses to signal to it's deepest subs is 10 miles long to produce the wavelengths needed to get through that much water.

 

[DJackson10]

OceanExpedition only reported it 8 hours after missing should've been reported sooner

Missing Titanic sub updates: Coast Guard estimates only 41 hours of oxygen supply left

Follow the New York Post’s live blog for updates in the search for the missing Titanic-bound sub.

nypost.com

 

[DJackson10]

OceanGate was warned 5 weeks prior to dive of Safety issues Someone is getting sued

OceanGate was allegedly warned about structural issues with submersible five weeks ago

Rear Admiral Chris Parry, alleges that OceanGate was informed about structural issues with the submersible five weeks ago.

blog.playerauctions.com

 

[Capella]

I read somebody on Reddit imply they likely didn’t implode, because the one thing they didn’t go cheap on/thought of was the material. Something about NASA design or something. So in their mind they are stuck and just waiting death out.

 

[Mister CIA]

I can’t think of too many worse ways to die. Outside of them being saved of course the best outcome here is this device they are in failed and they died instantly.

Terrible and strange story.

Thresher vibes

though I was a surface guy, always had immense respect for bubbleheads

ten levels of crazy (good kind) over folks who jump out of perfectly good airplanes

***************

hoping for a miracle

edit - typo

***************

@Dwayne Hoover - I know there's not much appreciation for pedantic semantics during an ongoing crisis, but it's not a submarine, right? I believer submersible is the term.


Google tells me

A submarine has enough power to leave port and come back to port under its own power. But a submersible has more limited power and range. It needs a mother ship from which to launch, to return to, and for support and communications.

Hey yo.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I can’t think of too many worse ways to die. Outside of them being saved of course the best outcome here is this device they are in failed and they died instantly.

Terrible and strange story.

Thresher vibes

though I was a surface guy, always had immense respect for bubbleheads

ten levels of crazy (good kind) over folks who jump out of perfectly good airplanes

***************

hoping for a miracle

edit - typo

***************

@Dwayne Hoover - I know there's not much appreciation for pedantic semantics during an ongoing crisis, but it's not a submarine, right? I believer submersible is the term.


Google tells me

A submarine has enough power to leave port and come back to port under its own power. But a submersible has more limited power and range. It needs a mother ship from which to launch, to return to, and for support and communications.

Hey yo.

 

[Doug B]

I read somebody on Reddit imply they likely didn’t implode, because the one thing they didn’t go cheap on/thought of was the material. Something about NASA design or something. So in their mind they are stuck and just waiting death out.

It seems the submersible was not lost or imploded — instead it got stranded somehow and can’t readily be brought back up.

 

[Capella]

I read somebody on Reddit imply they likely didn’t implode, because the one thing they didn’t go cheap on/thought of was the material. Something about NASA design or something. So in their mind they are stuck and just waiting death out.

It seems the submersible was not lost or imploded — instead it got stranded somehow and can’t readily be brought back up.

Yea. Saw the phrase “ghost nets” a lot.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

Exactly. My company built a radio designed to penetrate to rock for use in caves. We used a 450 MHz signal, which is considered “medium frequency,” and even with relatively high power and a fairly big loop antenna could only get through 100 feet of rock. Really low frequencies (20 MHz) can penetrate further, but thousands of feet is extremely difficult. Our antenna designer is a retired naval antenna designer, and salt water is even harder than rock to penetrate. So they would need some serious equipment with some seriously high power to communicate that deep in the ocean. I’m no it even sure it’s possible.

I read one transmitter the Navy uses to signal to it's deepest subs is 10 miles long to produce the wavelengths needed to get through that much water.

Had this happened before the end of the Cold War and deep budget cuts (and other capabilities coming online), we probably could have pinpointed the submersible via SOSUS. But AFAIK they haven't maintained that system over the last quarter century.

 

[need2know]

I can’t think of too many worse ways to die. Outside of them being saved of course the best outcome here is this device they are in failed and they died instantly.

Terrible and strange story.

Agree. If they aren't saved kinda hope it was a quick death

 

[Galileo]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

Exactly. My company built a radio designed to penetrate to rock for use in caves. We used a 450 MHz signal, which is considered “medium frequency,” and even with relatively high power and a fairly big loop antenna could only get through 100 feet of rock. Really low frequencies (20 MHz) can penetrate further, but thousands of feet is extremely difficult. Our antenna designer is a retired naval antenna designer, and salt water is even harder than rock to penetrate. So they would need some serious equipment with some seriously high power to communicate that deep in the ocean. I’m no it even sure it’s possible.

I read one transmitter the Navy uses to signal to it's deepest subs is 10 miles long to produce the wavelengths needed to get through that much water.

Had this happened before the end of the Cold War and deep budget cuts (and other capabilities coming online), we probably could have pinpointed the submersible via SOSUS. But AFAIK they haven't maintained that system over the last quarter century.

After doing some quick scanning of the content at the SOSUS link you provided, I think that system was designed to pick up on noise being generated by the vessels it was tracking, diesel and nuclear powered submarines which make a lot of noise. Not sure that would be much help in searching for a quiet submersible like Titan. Even with a sonar mapping/detection system, it would still be a daunting task to locate this vessel. It is pretty small. It would require some major resolution to distinguish it from rock formations and Titanic wreckage debris. Sadly, we are struggling to even locate the vehicle, and this may be the "easy" part of any rescue mission. Even if it is feasible to retrieve Titan, the race against the clock is pretty bleak.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I read somebody on Reddit imply they likely didn’t implode, because the one thing they didn’t go cheap on/thought of was the material. Something about NASA design or something. So in their mind they are stuck and just waiting death out.

Sounds like they were quoting the BBC video posted in this thread where they filmed it going down to the Titanic.

They talked to the CEO guy (who is one of the missing crew) and asked him about the jerry rigged parts (videogame controller, salvaged weights, etc) on something going to the bottom of the ocean. CEO guy said they only did that with non-essential stuff, and then went into a long process about how they worked with NASA and Boeing on the capsule and everything that would be essential for survival.

Still, reddit also thinks the point of failure might have been the carbon (which is difficult to detect weakening, but when it fails it fails catastrophically) which would have been instant. Or as one redditor put it, "they're probably dead and they never even noticed it".

 

[BobbyLayne]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

Exactly. My company built a radio designed to penetrate to rock for use in caves. We used a 450 MHz signal, which is considered “medium frequency,” and even with relatively high power and a fairly big loop antenna could only get through 100 feet of rock. Really low frequencies (20 MHz) can penetrate further, but thousands of feet is extremely difficult. Our antenna designer is a retired naval antenna designer, and salt water is even harder than rock to penetrate. So they would need some serious equipment with some seriously high power to communicate that deep in the ocean. I’m no it even sure it’s possible.

I read one transmitter the Navy uses to signal to it's deepest subs is 10 miles long to produce the wavelengths needed to get through that much water.

Had this happened before the end of the Cold War and deep budget cuts (and other capabilities coming online), we probably could have pinpointed the submersible via SOSUS. But AFAIK they haven't maintained that system over the last quarter century.

After doing some quick scanning of the content at the SOSUS link you provided, I think that system was designed to pick up on noise being generated by the vessels it was tracking, diesel and nuclear powered submarines which make a lot of noise. Not sure that would be much help in searching for a quiet submersible like Titan. Even with a sonar mapping/detection system, it would still be a daunting task to locate this vessel. It is pretty small. It would require some major resolution to distinguish it from rock formations and Titanic wreckage debris. Sadly, we are struggling to even locate the vehicle, and this may be the "easy" part of any rescue mission. Even if it is feasible to retrieve Titan, the race against the clock is pretty bleak.

SOSUS could identify a lot more than just screw noise. They could detect electronic equipment being run on 50 hz AC (Soviet) and since our standard is 60 hz it was an easy thing to differentiate friendlies.

The submersible has four four electric thrusters for propulsion, buoyancy-control and navigation. SOSUS would have picked up the anomaly, and since they had previously dived it at the wreck site, the database would have had it's signature on file from the previous use case. Back in 1963 they tracked the Thresher's precise location with SOSUS. We routinely tracked Soviet submarines with passive arrays from 5000 miles away. Every boomer that was on station was plotted at all times - typically 2 in the Atlantic and 3 in the Pacific. Fast attacks (subs used to hunt other subs) were less of priority. Knowing where all the nukes were at 24/7/365 was standard operating procedure in that era.

Or so I've heard. Much of it is declassified now. Guys who had a need to know 40 years ago tell me Tom Clancy was uncannily accurate about capabilities, long before it was in the public domain.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Canadian aircraft reported hearing banging sounds in 30 minute intervals in area of the wreckage

Not gonna lie -- this was the first thing I saw on CNN when I opened my browser, and it ruined my day. I would have strongly preferred not to know this.

 

[Galileo]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

Exactly. My company built a radio designed to penetrate to rock for use in caves. We used a 450 MHz signal, which is considered “medium frequency,” and even with relatively high power and a fairly big loop antenna could only get through 100 feet of rock. Really low frequencies (20 MHz) can penetrate further, but thousands of feet is extremely difficult. Our antenna designer is a retired naval antenna designer, and salt water is even harder than rock to penetrate. So they would need some serious equipment with some seriously high power to communicate that deep in the ocean. I’m no it even sure it’s possible.

I read one transmitter the Navy uses to signal to it's deepest subs is 10 miles long to produce the wavelengths needed to get through that much water.

Had this happened before the end of the Cold War and deep budget cuts (and other capabilities coming online), we probably could have pinpointed the submersible via SOSUS. But AFAIK they haven't maintained that system over the last quarter century.

After doing some quick scanning of the content at the SOSUS link you provided, I think that system was designed to pick up on noise being generated by the vessels it was tracking, diesel and nuclear powered submarines which make a lot of noise. Not sure that would be much help in searching for a quiet submersible like Titan. Even with a sonar mapping/detection system, it would still be a daunting task to locate this vessel. It is pretty small. It would require some major resolution to distinguish it from rock formations and Titanic wreckage debris. Sadly, we are struggling to even locate the vehicle, and this may be the "easy" part of any rescue mission. Even if it is feasible to retrieve Titan, the race against the clock is pretty bleak.

SOSUS could identify a lot more than just screw noise. They could detect electronic equipment being run on 50 hz AC (Soviet) and since our standard is 60 hz it was an easy thing to differentiate friendlies.

The submersible has four four electric thrusters for propulsion, buoyancy-control and navigation. SOSUS would have picked up the anomaly, and since they had previously dived it at the wreck site, the database would have had it's signature on file from the previous use case. Back in 1963 they tracked the Thresher's precise location with SOSUS. We routinely tracked Soviet submarines with passive arrays from 5000 miles away. Every boomer that was on station was plotted at all times - typically 2 in the Atlantic and 3 in the Pacific. Fast attacks (subs used to hunt other subs) were less of priority. Knowing where all the nukes were at 24/7/365 was standard operating procedure in that era.

Or so I've heard. Much of it is declassified now. Guys who had a need to know 40 years ago tell me Tom Clancy was uncannily accurate about capabilities, long before it was in the public domain.

I'm guessing they aren't operating.

 

[massraider]

There were previous passengers who said they lost contact, and were lost for 2 hours.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

For those few who don't know.
CIA and other 'letter' agencies aren't legally allowed to do 'certain things' so they hire-out private companies to 'acquire' technologies.
'Apparently' some private company has the ability to do a rescue but the 'tech' they own is under contract to a government agency who doesn't want them to use the technology for the world to see that we have the capability.
F that, just do the rescue and come up with some BS story and don't give any details.

---

Efforts to rescue the Titanic submersible are being delayed because US officials haven't approved paperwork, an OceanGate advisor says

 

[IvanKaramazov]

For those few who don't know.
CIA and other 'letter' agencies aren't legally allowed to do 'certain things' so they hire-out private companies to 'acquire' technologies.
'Apparently' some private company has the ability to do a rescue but the 'tech' they own is under contract to a government agency who doesn't want them to use the technology for the world to see that we have the capability.
F that, just do the rescue and come up with some BS story and don't give any details.

---

Efforts to rescue the Titanic submersible are being delayed because US officials haven't approved paperwork, an OceanGate advisor says

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Does "missing" in this case mean that it didn't come back by the time it was supposed to, or did they have some kind of contact with it like radio contact that they no longer have? If they had contact but lost it then it seems extremely likely it was destroyed.

It's supposed to ping the mother ship every 15 minutes. When they were 1:45 into the 2-hour descent the last ping was sent. Next ping should have been at "the bottom", was never received.

Apparently it can just send a text message back and forth. No radio or GPS onboard.

I don't think normal radio or GPS work at the depths this thing is at. Even for rudimentary radio they'd probably need an antenna 10x longer than the sub itself to receive at the size of the wavelengths required.

This communication piece really confuses me. Radio waves/microwaves do not penetrate water very well at all. It would be even worse in salt water which has greater conductivity. Text messages from a typical cell phone wouldn't stand a chance. Radio frequencies at the very, very low end of the spectrum may be able to penetrate a couple hundred meters at best...nothing like the depths this vehicle is supposedly designed to go. And, as Runkle pints out, the wavelengths of these low frequency signals would be huge requiring unrealistic antenna sizes. I am not well versed in the area of underwater communication, but there has to be some significantly different mode of communication beyond simple "text" as we know it for communication at the depths involved here. Acoustic signals perhaps? Sonic waves can travel well in water.

Exactly. My company built a radio designed to penetrate to rock for use in caves. We used a 450 MHz signal, which is considered “medium frequency,” and even with relatively high power and a fairly big loop antenna could only get through 100 feet of rock. Really low frequencies (20 MHz) can penetrate further, but thousands of feet is extremely difficult. Our antenna designer is a retired naval antenna designer, and salt water is even harder than rock to penetrate. So they would need some serious equipment with some seriously high power to communicate that deep in the ocean. I’m no it even sure it’s possible.

I read one transmitter the Navy uses to signal to it's deepest subs is 10 miles long to produce the wavelengths needed to get through that much water.

Had this happened before the end of the Cold War and deep budget cuts (and other capabilities coming online), we probably could have pinpointed the submersible via SOSUS. But AFAIK they haven't maintained that system over the last quarter century.

After doing some quick scanning of the content at the SOSUS link you provided, I think that system was designed to pick up on noise being generated by the vessels it was tracking, diesel and nuclear powered submarines which make a lot of noise. Not sure that would be much help in searching for a quiet submersible like Titan. Even with a sonar mapping/detection system, it would still be a daunting task to locate this vessel. It is pretty small. It would require some major resolution to distinguish it from rock formations and Titanic wreckage debris. Sadly, we are struggling to even locate the vehicle, and this may be the "easy" part of any rescue mission. Even if it is feasible to retrieve Titan, the race against the clock is pretty bleak.

SOSUS could identify a lot more than just screw noise. They could detect electronic equipment being run on 50 hz AC (Soviet) and since our standard is 60 hz it was an easy thing to differentiate friendlies.

The submersible has four four electric thrusters for propulsion, buoyancy-control and navigation. SOSUS would have picked up the anomaly, and since they had previously dived it at the wreck site, the database would have had it's signature on file from the previous use case. Back in 1963 they tracked the Thresher's precise location with SOSUS. We routinely tracked Soviet submarines with passive arrays from 5000 miles away. Every boomer that was on station was plotted at all times - typically 2 in the Atlantic and 3 in the Pacific. Fast attacks (subs used to hunt other subs) were less of priority. Knowing where all the nukes were at 24/7/365 was standard operating procedure in that era.

Or so I've heard. Much of it is declassified now. Guys who had a need to know 40 years ago tell me Tom Clancy was uncannily accurate about capabilities, long before it was in the public domain.

I'm guessing they aren't operating.

The Titan? They lost contact at 3800 meters deep, one hour 45 minutes into the descent - which should have taken about 2 hours. Descent rate is 50m / minute.

IDK, out of my depth here.

 

[Ilov80s]

For those few who don't know.
CIA and other 'letter' agencies aren't legally allowed to do 'certain things' so they hire-out private companies to 'acquire' technologies.
'Apparently' some private company has the ability to do a rescue but the 'tech' they own is under contract to a government agency who doesn't want them to use the technology for the world to see that we have the capability.
F that, just do the rescue and come up with some BS story and don't give any details.

---

Efforts to rescue the Titanic submersible are being delayed because US officials haven't approved paperwork, an OceanGate advisor says

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

Sadly I agree. Also, do we know for sure this story is true? It’s from someone who works for the company. It could be totally true or it could deflecting the blame. If this tech is so classified, how does he even know about it?

 

[need2know]

For those few who don't know.
CIA and other 'letter' agencies aren't legally allowed to do 'certain things' so they hire-out private companies to 'acquire' technologies.
'Apparently' some private company has the ability to do a rescue but the 'tech' they own is under contract to a government agency who doesn't want them to use the technology for the world to see that we have the capability.
F that, just do the rescue and come up with some BS story and don't give any details.

---

Efforts to rescue the Titanic submersible are being delayed because US officials haven't approved paperwork, an OceanGate advisor says

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

Sadly I agree. Also, do we know for sure this story is true? It’s from someone who works for the company. It could be totally true or it could deflecting the blame. If this tech is so classified, how does he even know about it?

they shouldn't even be saying what they are. its most likely BS

 

[massraider]

For those few who don't know.
CIA and other 'letter' agencies aren't legally allowed to do 'certain things' so they hire-out private companies to 'acquire' technologies.
'Apparently' some private company has the ability to do a rescue but the 'tech' they own is under contract to a government agency who doesn't want them to use the technology for the world to see that we have the capability.
F that, just do the rescue and come up with some BS story and don't give any details.

---

Efforts to rescue the Titanic submersible are being delayed because US officials haven't approved paperwork, an OceanGate advisor says

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

Sadly I agree. Also, do we know for sure this story is true? It’s from someone who works for the company. It could be totally true or it could deflecting the blame. If this tech is so classified, how does he even know about it?

That article doesn't even say that. It's an advisor for Ocean Gate (advisor? Does he have any authority whatsoever?) says this:

He told NewsNation: "This equipment has been on the tarmac for hours. And when I communicate with the United States government, I get 'out of office' replies — not from everyone, but from key people that have a sign-off on this."

Who are we supposed to be angry at? Which agency? Why can't they leave?

 

[massraider]

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

This

People go backwoods skiing and get stuck/lost every winter, we don't mobilize the military.

 

[BobbyLayne]

For those few who don't know.
CIA and other 'letter' agencies aren't legally allowed to do 'certain things' so they hire-out private companies to 'acquire' technologies.
'Apparently' some private company has the ability to do a rescue but the 'tech' they own is under contract to a government agency who doesn't want them to use the technology for the world to see that we have the capability.
F that, just do the rescue and come up with some BS story and don't give any details.

---

Efforts to rescue the Titanic submersible are being delayed because US officials haven't approved paperwork, an OceanGate advisor says

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

I could answer this in around ~ 2055.

In the aftermath of 9/11, I left telecom for a few years to work for private gov/mil contractors HQed in NYC. One was a biometric startup developing facial recognition software, the other had it's fingers in more pies than I knew existed - including ultrasonic imaging. Same folks started out [at the conclusion of WWII] as a research institute at an Ivy league school before becoming an independent non-profit (lol) entity [some 20 years later] focused on research & development for national security technology.

TBC I am not a technical asset, my role was accounting and finance m&a - both of these orgs were experiencing hypergrowth after the attacks. Most of the stuff that came across my desk was unclassified or heavily redacted. I did have a TS clearance but that's part A of access - part B is an operational need to know. Quarterly I would sit through high level briefings - in the back of the room in chairs along the wall or standing, I literally did not have a seat at the table - which summarized our activities. Saw what we could accomplish without directly knowing how that was achieved or through which means.

Those reddit rumors seem plausible but I cannot confirm or deny the existence or absence of such capabilities. But if they did have that ability, coming up with a believable cover story that would point to another technology or source without unveiling our abilities would be part of the equation.

As an aside, those were starkly contrasting work environments. The biometric startup was 100% brilliant young minds out of MIT, Harvard, Cal Tech, et al, all under the age of 25 except for the two founders (brothers in their early 30s) and two managers (late 20s.) I was in my early 40s, decade older than any of them. One woman I worked with started University at age 14. I worked around 70-75 hours a week in my support role; only time I've had the title of GM though most of my efforts were not directly involved with development other than assisting with contracts. The worker bees were doing 90+ hour weeks and typically burned out after a year or two, to be replaced by the next graduating class of savants. We stay in contact and many of them are entrepreneurs now running their own consulting firms. The research institute, on the other hand, had 400 employees over the age of 60. Geniuses who invented sonar, perfected high altitude-high resolution imagery, had worked with ICBMs since inception - and were then running the drone strikes from the comfort of US air force bases. Every. Pie. Imaginable. If I ever worked a day longer than 8 hours it would have been right after onboarding, before I understood the culture.

Worked with all the 3 letter agencies, peripherally for me. Ironically both private entities were popularly known by their respective 3-letter acronym. Enjoyed my time there but found the latter to be very triggering. I was more than decade away from dealing with my own combat PTSD related issues so I moved on.

 

[Capella]

For those few who don't know.
CIA and other 'letter' agencies aren't legally allowed to do 'certain things' so they hire-out private companies to 'acquire' technologies.
'Apparently' some private company has the ability to do a rescue but the 'tech' they own is under contract to a government agency who doesn't want them to use the technology for the world to see that we have the capability.
F that, just do the rescue and come up with some BS story and don't give any details.

---

Efforts to rescue the Titanic submersible are being delayed because US officials haven't approved paperwork, an OceanGate advisor says

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

Yup. They shouldn’t have been down there.

 

[Willy]

We've come full circle back to this guy?

Airplane Movie Counter Point clip

Airplane Movie clip at 1:02:15From the script: http://sfy.ru/?script=airplane_tsTVGUY : This bulletin just handed to me . . . stricken airlinerapproaches Chi...

youtu.be

 

[Desert_Power]

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

Tend to agree here. Don't have any issues with the search and rescue efforts from our (and Canada's) military, but something that risks natural security or significantly endangers others is a bridge too far for me.

 

[culdeus]

I know this will be unpopular, but I see this as being very similar to climbing Mount Everest. It's incredibly dangerous, and you knew that when you embarked. I feel pretty comfortable drawing a line at anything that might jeopardize national security. We don't use our captured alien spacecraft (flippant - sorry) to rescue people trapped in the death zone, and I wouldn't use them here either.

Tend to agree here. Don't have any issues with the search and rescue efforts from our (and Canada's) military, but something that risks natural security or significantly endangers others is a bridge too far for me.

Nobody is sending a person after them. That doesn't seem to be on the table. At best someone goes and noses around the titanic with an UAV and sees if they see the wreckage. If not. Rip.

 

[beer 30]

Assuming it's on the bottom, even if they found out exactly where it was right now, would there be anything they could do? Could they find something capable of dragging it up, transport that out there to the middle of nowhere, and get it down to the bottom and back up again in the less than 40 hours of air they have left?

In a word, no.

I can’t think of too many worse ways to die. Outside of them being saved of course the best outcome here is this device they are in failed and they died instantly.

Oddly enough I can think of a bunch. If it imploded (which doesn't seem likely right now) then it was pretty instantaneous. If they run out of air they pretty much just go to sleep and not wake up.