More extremely shady calls in the NFL.... (1 Viewer)

[death of the cool]

I consider myself a pretty level headed person, but these last few weeks have me questioning the integrity of the NFL referees....and note none of these have a fantasy impact on me.

Last week we watched Ed Hochili swallow his whistle on at least half a dozen holding calls on Demarcus Ware along with the horrible "defenseless receiver call". Also the supposed "barking out snap counts would be Hocholi's call as well.

Now this week we have the Giants clearly fumbling but being called down without being touched which leads to a win. We have the Sanchez throwing a ball that clearly went forward...and a punter getting hit right in front of the ref without a call. Plaxico was also hit late out of bounds when he was called for a facemask.

Either the NFL refs are getting much worse, or there are some shady dealings going on.

 

[Ladsud]

You act like this year is any different than every single year I can remember.

 

[mad sweeney]

I consider myself a pretty level headed person, but these last few weeks have me questioning the integrity of the NFL referees....and note none of these have a fantasy impact on me.Last week we watched Ed Hochili swallow his whistle on at least half a dozen holding calls on Demarcus Ware along with the horrible "defenseless receiver call". Also the supposed "barking out snap counts would be Hocholi's call as well.Now this week we have the Giants clearly fumbling but being called down without being touched which leads to a win. We have the Sanchez throwing a ball that clearly went forward...and a punter getting hit right in front of the ref without a call. Plaxico was also hit late out of bounds when he was called for a facemask.Either the NFL refs are getting much worse, or there are some shady dealings going on.

That's because he had ahold of the guy's facemask the entire time and pretty much didn't let go til the guy pushed him. The Sanchez fumble was possibly an incomplete, but it was VERY far from being clearly anything. They showed the ref looking at a hold on the punt and missing the punter. Really, there are bad calls every week, but it's inconceivable that you come in with these absolutely horrible examples.

 

[RJS113]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Now this week we have the Giants clearly fumbling but being called down without being touched which leads to a win. We have the Sanchez throwing a ball that clearly went forward...and a punter getting hit right in front of the ref without a call. Plaxico was also hit late out of bounds when he was called for a facemask.

Sounds like either the refs are Giants fans or Archie Manning is pulling out the big bucks this year since only 1 of his sons can make the playoffs.

 

[ThePittbully]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

 

[ready5]

according to the 'indeterminacy thesis' one can make a legalistic argument for anything.

referees aren't just judges, they're not even really bound by the rules.

 

[rizzler]

Sanchez's arm went forward with an empty hand. plain as day

Cruz went down to seemingly avoid contact. laid for a second. made no effort to get up and extend the play. He gave himself up

 

[BobbyLayne]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

The only time it's ever called is a feet first slide or going down and staying there. I've never seen anyone give a ball up like that and have it called the way it was today. Eli in his presser said they caught a break and quick snapped because he was sure they blew the call.

 

[PahtyTom]

National Funny League

 

[qimqam]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

I was pissed initially because i thought Cruz screwed up because he was not touched ... but if the rule says a player is down once they give themselves up then there is nothing to discuss ... he clearly dove forward onto his stomach and jumped up and ran back toward the huddle

 

[Joe Summer]

Now this week we have the Giants clearly fumbling but being called down without being touched which leads to a win.

You can be called down without being touched. Here's the relevant passage from the NFL rulebook: "An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended when a runner is out of bounds or declares himself down by falling to the ground and makes no effort to advance" (Section 4, Article 1)

Maybe it was a grey area but I don't think you can fault the ref for interpreting Cruz's actions as "no effort to advance".

 

[Joe Summer]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

It doesn't have to be one or the other. In fact, the rule specifically includes the word "falling".

 

[WisWolvrns]

if you didn't like the cruz call... check out stevie johnson's "incomplete" ruling when the bills we closing out the game with a first down on the play and putting it in field goal range... incomplete, with a review!?, killed the drive... cincy had time to get a td, then fieldgoal to win it...

but i agree... lots of questionable calls seem to be happening all over this week... (lots of non-holding calls in the bills game too)

 

[mad sweeney]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

The only time it's ever called is a feet first slide or going down and staying there. I've never seen anyone give a ball up like that and have it called the way it was today. Eli in his presser said they caught a break and quick snapped because he was sure they blew the call.

Or if they take a knee.

 

[SacramentoBob]

He was down. Get over it Arizona fans.

 

[bonesman]

Cruz gave himself up... I don't really see the argument on that one (I have no vested interest in either team).

 

[Bri]

why start a new thread when obviously we were discussing this in the game thread?

 

[tombonneau]

Cruz gave himself up... I don't really see the argument on that one (I have no vested interest in either team).

I agree. I'm unclear as to why this is controversial. He clearly went down intentionally to conserve clock and then got up quickly to get a jump on the next play. Do people think that he thought he was tackled or touched when he went down?

 

[Bri]

Cruz gave himself up... I don't really see the argument on that one (I have no vested interest in either team).

I agree. I'm unclear as to why this is controversial. He clearly went down intentionally to conserve clock and then got up quickly to get a jump on the next play. Do people think that he thought he was tackled or touched when he went down?

I thought he was scared. Since becoming a significant part of their offense, he's taken some serious shots. I absolutely envision a coach telling him to get out of bounds or get down.

 

[Joe Summer]

Cruz gave himself up... I don't really see the argument on that one (I have no vested interest in either team).

I agree. I'm unclear as to why this is controversial. He clearly went down intentionally to conserve clock and then got up quickly to get a jump on the next play. Do people think that he thought he was tackled or touched when he went down?

I thought he was scared. Since becoming a significant part of their offense, he's taken some serious shots. I absolutely envision a coach telling him to get out of bounds or get down.

Even if he was scared, it still meets the requirements of the rule ("fall to the ground and make no effort to advance").

 

[Fro]

why start a new thread when obviously we were discussing this in the game thread?

I like seeing threads like this on a Sunday, whether I agree or disagree with his opinions. I don't have time to go through every game thread and wouldn't mind seeing some more "cliff notes" topics like this one.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

the two aren't mutually exclusive. He was losing his balance and just chose to fall forward and go down. He then didn't make any effort to advance the ball, thus illustrating his intention to be down. his one was a pretty easy call. The one other one of these everyone remembers involved a player who then immediately got up and ran forward, albeit in an effort to spike the ball, but because he didn't 'stay down' (in accordance with the rule) it was a fumble when he did so.I thought the Sanchez one was INC. But it was really close. Nowhere near 'cut and dry'.

The only call I've seen that was conspiracy level shady this year was in college. That Syracuse XP that was called good and reviewed good was ####### absurd. Someone got paid off there.

 

[Kenny Powers]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

the two aren't mutually exclusive. He was losing his balance and just chose to fall forward and go down. He then didn't make any effort to advance the ball, thus illustrating his intention to be down. his one was a pretty easy call. The one other one of these everyone remembers involved a player who then immediately got up and ran forward, albeit in an effort to spike the ball, but because he didn't 'stay down' (in accordance with the rule) it was a fumble when he did so.

Plax?

 

[JuSt CuZ]

The NFL officials are Shady, how can people not think that after how many calls get blown...flat out blown.

 

[Joe Summer]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

the two aren't mutually exclusive. He was losing his balance and just chose to fall forward and go down. He then didn't make any effort to advance the ball, thus illustrating his intention to be down. his one was a pretty easy call. The one other one of these everyone remembers involved a player who then immediately got up and ran forward, albeit in an effort to spike the ball, but because he didn't 'stay down' (in accordance with the rule) it was a fumble when he did so.

Plax?

There were 2 similar plays around the same time (2006?). One involved Plaxico Burress spiking the ball backwards -- it was ruled as a lateral, and the defense recovered.The other play involved Vincent Jackson, who flipped the ball forward after thinking that he'd been downed (when in fact he was never touched). That play was ruled as an illegal forward pass, and (if I remember correctly) the Chargers got to keep the ball after a 5-yard penalty.

 

[Mario Kart]

I agree with the OP. What really bothered me today is that Vick was hit late on half the plays and did not get any flags that i saw. Refs are completely against the Eagles.

 

[shortbow]

By definition the play was over, I was not familiar with the rule but im not an NFL referee, but to the letter the play was over made the right call.

 

[Mello]

He didn't give himself up. He thought he had been touched and let the ball go before the whistle was blown. Cruz admitted this himself post game.

 

[GroveDiesel]

if you didn't like the cruz call... check out stevie johnson's "incomplete" ruling when the bills we closing out the game with a first down on the play and putting it in field goal range... incomplete, with a review!?, killed the drive... cincy had time to get a td, then fieldgoal to win it...but i agree... lots of questionable calls seem to be happening all over this week... (lots of non-holding calls in the bills game too)

The more I read about this one, the more upset it's making me. Apparently the side judge originally rules it a catch but the back judge came in and overruled him even though the back judge didn't really have an angle to make a clear call on it!

 

[Bri]

I don't have a problem with Cruz call. Cruz basically pulled a Joey Galloway (giving yourself up by diving to the ground to avoid being hit). He was down.

He didn't give himself up, he fell

the two aren't mutually exclusive. He was losing his balance and just chose to fall forward and go down. He then didn't make any effort to advance the ball, thus illustrating his intention to be down. his one was a pretty easy call. The one other one of these everyone remembers involved a player who then immediately got up and ran forward, albeit in an effort to spike the ball, but because he didn't 'stay down' (in accordance with the rule) it was a fumble when he did so.

Plax?

There were 2 similar plays around the same time (2006?). One involved Plaxico Burress spiking the ball backwards -- it was ruled as a lateral, and the defense recovered.The other play involved Vincent Jackson, who flipped the ball forward after thinking that he'd been downed (when in fact he was never touched). That play was ruled as an illegal forward pass, and (if I remember correctly) the Chargers got to keep the ball after a 5-yard penalty.

Perreira(sp?) mentioned something like this during the game. I didn't understand it then.Why are these spike plays similar? Why even bother? QBs go down, KRs kneel(not as often in NFL but other football leagues).

 

[Bri]

Ya'all need to remember that if you were watching the game there was this ugly handful of seconds where neither team seemed to know what to do as the refs discussed. A Giant, maybe Jacobs, jogged into the end zone with the ball. So many "the play is not dead" thoughts and no one has ended up with that Giant TD.

There was no whistle. That was discussed often the last 24 hours.

It was a jog. I in no way think it was a TD, but if some people here are going to ignore one rule for another, then how about how every coach teaches to play til the whistle?

What I don't get here is how is this shady? He may have tripped over his own feet. I don't know. I get panic from it, some of you get tripped. I see him look to the right and see the other defender bearing down.

IIRC Beanie as all but down lying on top of a defender and squirmed for more yardage probably because his knee wasn't down. Awesome extra effort on his part, there were Giants there (several in fact) and in my opinion he was down. I haven't made any effort to look up rules about being in a pile. His knee was not on the ground. Regardless, it was a battle. He got up and he got hit again and it was done. Nothing in me wants to whine that he was down. It was fun and competitive to watch.

Cruz went down on his own. No one hit him. It's so much more like downing the ball than the Beanie run.

 

[gump]

So the NFL has directed the refs to help two of their largest market teams (Jets and Eagles) to lose?

Why is this again? So the league can bath in the cash created by a Niners-Chargers Super Bowl?

 

[Sabertooth]

So the NFL has directed the refs to help two of their largest market teams (Jets and Eagles) to lose?Why is this again? So the league can bath in the cash created by a Niners-Chargers Super Bowl?

Yep. Follow the money.

 

[death of the cool]

So the NFL has directed the refs to help two of their largest market teams (Jets and Eagles) to lose?Why is this again? So the league can bath in the cash created by a Niners-Chargers Super Bowl?

Hold on dude....I never said that there was some mass conspiracy by the NFL. I am talking about individual refs for certain games. It would be interesting to see how many of these questionable calls effected the spread and betting winners. Heck it just could be blind bias by a ref toward a player or team and nothing illegal (Like when Dallas played the NYJ opening night and the head referee had a thick bronx accent.....BTW the Jets didn't get called for a single penalty the entire game.)Regardless, the NFL needs to fix some things...because blown calls all over the league is affecting outcomes.

 

[JuSt CuZ]

So the NFL has directed the refs to help two of their largest market teams (Jets and Eagles) to lose?Why is this again? So the league can bath in the cash created by a Niners-Chargers Super Bowl?

Hold on dude....I never said that there was some mass conspiracy by the NFL. I am talking about individual refs for certain games. It would be interesting to see how many of these questionable calls effected the spread and betting winners. Heck it just could be blind bias by a ref toward a player or team and nothing illegal (Like when Dallas played the NYJ opening night and the head referee had a thick bronx accent.....BTW the Jets didn't get called for a single penalty the entire game.)Regardless, the NFL needs to fix some things...because blown calls all over the league is affecting outcomes.

I'll raise my hand, I believe their is a bunch of conspiracies in the NFL, dont care how much hate I get for it.Part of the conspiracy is that Refs never get publicly punished for horrific calls, as its important that the fans know Refs are accountable, instead we get "Every ref is evaluated" lol whatever.

 

[TobiasFunke]

So the NFL has directed the refs to help two of their largest market teams (Jets and Eagles) to lose?Why is this again? So the league can bath in the cash created by a Niners-Chargers Super Bowl?

Hold on dude....I never said that there was some mass conspiracy by the NFL. I am talking about individual refs for certain games. It would be interesting to see how many of these questionable calls effected the spread and betting winners. Heck it just could be blind bias by a ref toward a player or team and nothing illegal (Like when Dallas played the NYJ opening night and the head referee had a thick bronx accent.....BTW the Jets didn't get called for a single penalty the entire game.)Regardless, the NFL needs to fix some things...because blown calls all over the league is affecting outcomes.

At least two of your alleged blown calls were pretty clearly not blown at all: Plaxico getting "hit late" out of bounds ... by a guy he dragged out of bounds by the facemask, and Cruz being called down because he had given himself up when he obviously was down and had given himself up. So that should tell you something. Bad calls happen all the time in every sport, the refs are no worse this season in the NFL than they've been in any season in any sport.Gotta be honest with you- you sound like a Cowboys fan who is upset about his team's loss yesterday and slow start and the fact that they're in 3rd place in their division after the Giants' and Redskins wins yesterday. So you went looking for a scapegoat, settled on the refs' treatment of Ware (take a look at how the Cowboys' OL treats Orakpo on probably 50% of his pass rushes if you think Ware is the only elite pass rusher who gets held without a call) and the blown call that actually wasn't blown when Cruz gave himself up, and then tried to find a few more so-called blown calls to back up your claim.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

He didn't give himself up. He thought he had been touched and let the ball go before the whistle was blown. Cruz admitted this himself post game.

explain to me like I am six, how 'thinking you are down' and thus not going fwd, advancing the ball etc, is any different from intentionally going down, not going fwd, advancing the ball etc.

 

[renesauz]

Cruz is a rookie. He played like he was in college, where when you hit the ground, you're down. The kid tripped and fell on his own, and in the heat of the moment, got up to rush to the huddle for the next play, forgetting that in the NFL you're not down until you're touched.

To "give yourself up" it has to be CLEAR you're giving yourself up. Players trip and fall and get back up ALL THE TIME...and it looked not like a dive, or a kneel down, but a stumbling bumbling trip over the turf monster. Since 90% of the announcers and fans don't see it as clear....then he didn't. Blown call...end of story.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Cruz is a rookie. He played like he was in college, where when you hit the ground, you're down. The kid tripped and fell on his own, and in the heat of the moment, got up to rush to the huddle for the next play, forgetting that in the NFL you're not down until you're touched.To "give yourself up" it has to be CLEAR you're giving yourself up. Players trip and fall and get back up ALL THE TIME...and it looked not like a dive, or a kneel down, but a stumbling bumbling trip over the turf monster. Since 90% of the announcers and fans don't see it as clear....then he didn't. Blown call...end of story.

Can you link to the part of the rules that says it must be clear? I assume that's a key point in the rules since you felt the need to put it in all caps.Bottom line, it's a judgment call. I don't think he tripped. I think it's really obvious that he went down on purpose, in fact, so much so that I think it's silly to pretend otherwise. And I'm a Redskins fan, so I'm arguing against my own team's best interests here. Regardless,at at a minimum we can say that reasonable people could have different opinions on the play. Given that, and the fact that it's a judgment call and doesn't require "clear" evidence despite your claim, you absolutely cannot declare "blown call ... end of story."

 

[renesauz]

Cruz is a rookie. He played like he was in college, where when you hit the ground, you're down. The kid tripped and fell on his own, and in the heat of the moment, got up to rush to the huddle for the next play, forgetting that in the NFL you're not down until you're touched.To "give yourself up" it has to be CLEAR you're giving yourself up. Players trip and fall and get back up ALL THE TIME...and it looked not like a dive, or a kneel down, but a stumbling bumbling trip over the turf monster. Since 90% of the announcers and fans don't see it as clear....then he didn't. Blown call...end of story.

Can you link to the part of the rules that says it must be clear? I assume that's a key point in the rules since you felt the need to put it in all caps.Bottom line, it's a judgment call. I don't think he tripped. I think it's really obvious that he went down on purpose, in fact, so much so that I think it's silly to pretend otherwise. And I'm a Redskins fan, so I'm arguing against my own team's best interests here. Regardless,at at a minimum we can say that reasonable people could have different opinions on the play. Given that, and the fact that it's a judgment call and doesn't require "clear" evidence despite your claim, you absolutely cannot declare "blown call ... end of story."

I can't, but that's not the point. DO you dispute that players fall and get back up to run some more all the time?DO you dispute that he's a rookie and the rules are different in college? Have you EVER before seen an NFL player give himself up with a headfirst "dive" that looks more like a trip? EVER??????I agree that reasonable people can disagree. PRECEDENT says that's a fumble...the rules are unclear and obviously need to be fixed.

 

[ready5]

all these calls could go either way.

that's the whole point.

 

[VaTerp]

I agree with the officials on the Cruz call even though I can easily see the other side of it. And there are a handful of calls each week that fans will scream about and infuriate you if your team is on the losing end of them.

But I don't think there is ANYTHING "shady" about it. What that suggests is that NFL officials are commiting serious felonies and personally involved in gambling/fixing outcomes. There is simply too much too risk for the league and individual officials and it would be fairly easy to trace if this was the case. I know someone will bring up Tim Donaghy but that was one guy, who was caught, and officials can impact a basketball game much more than in football.

Officiating is MUCH harder than it looks. Officials are human and make mistakes but to suggest that it's shady means you subscribe to a certain degree of conspiracy thinking that I strongly disagree with.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Cruz is a rookie. He played like he was in college, where when you hit the ground, you're down. The kid tripped and fell on his own, and in the heat of the moment, got up to rush to the huddle for the next play, forgetting that in the NFL you're not down until you're touched.To "give yourself up" it has to be CLEAR you're giving yourself up. Players trip and fall and get back up ALL THE TIME...and it looked not like a dive, or a kneel down, but a stumbling bumbling trip over the turf monster. Since 90% of the announcers and fans don't see it as clear....then he didn't. Blown call...end of story.

Can you link to the part of the rules that says it must be clear? I assume that's a key point in the rules since you felt the need to put it in all caps.Bottom line, it's a judgment call. I don't think he tripped. I think it's really obvious that he went down on purpose, in fact, so much so that I think it's silly to pretend otherwise. And I'm a Redskins fan, so I'm arguing against my own team's best interests here. Regardless,at at a minimum we can say that reasonable people could have different opinions on the play. Given that, and the fact that it's a judgment call and doesn't require "clear" evidence despite your claim, you absolutely cannot declare "blown call ... end of story."

I can't, but that's not the point. DO you dispute that players fall and get back up to run some more all the time?DO you dispute that he's a rookie and the rules are different in college? Have you EVER before seen an NFL player give himself up with a headfirst "dive" that looks more like a trip? EVER??????I agree that reasonable people can disagree. PRECEDENT says that's a fumble...the rules are unclear and obviously need to be fixed.

1. No, players fall and get back up to run more all the time. I don't think he fell so that's not relevant to how I feel about the play, but I don't dispute that.2. He is a rookie and the rules are different in college. That has nothing to do with whether or not he went down on purpose, but I agree that he is a rookie and the rules are different in college.3. I have never seen a player give himself up with a headfirst dive that looks more like a trip. That includes watching Cruz on Sunday afternoon because I didn't think that looked like a trip. I have seen players give themselves up in ways other than kneeling. It happens all the time, most frequently where a QB slides, or a defensive player recovers a fumble or INT at the end of the game and knows his team wins as long as he doesn't fumble so he bellyflops or falls into the fetal position. It's unusual for a WR to do something like that, but I don't see how that matters. The rules don't take into account how often something has happened before.I agree the rule should be changed or at least clarified, but it's a huge leap from that to declaring that it was clearly a blown call.

 

[bonesman]

Cruz is not a rookie.

 

[mrip541]

I think that when this much money is involved in anything there will always be shady deals.

 

[boonesfarm4me]

Cruz is a rookie. He played like he was in college, where when you hit the ground, you're down. The kid tripped and fell on his own, and in the heat of the moment, got up to rush to the huddle for the next play, forgetting that in the NFL you're not down until you're touched.To "give yourself up" it has to be CLEAR you're giving yourself up. Players trip and fall and get back up ALL THE TIME...and it looked not like a dive, or a kneel down, but a stumbling bumbling trip over the turf monster. Since 90% of the announcers and fans don't see it as clear....then he didn't. Blown call...end of story.

 

[qimqam]

He didn't give himself up. He thought he had been touched and let the ball go before the whistle was blown. Cruz admitted this himself post game.

It doesn't matter whether or not he was touched. He had given himself up and the play was whistled dead.

 

[davearm]

Cruz is a rookie. He played like he was in college, where when you hit the ground, you're down. The kid tripped and fell on his own, and in the heat of the moment, got up to rush to the huddle for the next play, forgetting that in the NFL you're not down until you're touched.To "give yourself up" it has to be CLEAR you're giving yourself up. Players trip and fall and get back up ALL THE TIME...and it looked not like a dive, or a kneel down, but a stumbling bumbling trip over the turf monster. Since 90% of the announcers and fans don't see it as clear....then he didn't. Blown call...end of story.

Did you see the rule quoted earlier?"An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended when a runner is out of bounds or declares himself down by falling to the ground and makes no effort to advance" (Section 4, Article 1)Cruz fell to the ground and made no effort to advance. Thus, the official declared the ball dead and the down ended, just like the rules dictate he should.Now personally I don't think Cruz intended to give himself up. I think he either thought he was down by contact, or perhaps even had this (somewhat flimsy IMO) college flashback moment that folks have speculated about. But the point is, none of that matters and the official is neither asked to, nor expected to determine the runner's intent. All the official needs to determine is whether or not the runner is making an attempt to advance. Cruz was not. Correct call.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I think it was clear that Cruz's intent was to give himself up....no matter how he went to the ground....in fact, if I recall, you can even see him take a look back and see a guy that was easily going to make a tackle on him, so he didn't even try to regain his balance and get back up....

the key for me also is that he did not fumble the ball....he intentionally dropped it and got up to advance back to the line of scrimmage for the next play....he had no intention of getting up and trying to advance down field.....