More Spygate Fallout? Former Patriots Video Guy Matt Walsh speaks (1 Viewer)

[AB in DC]

I thought this was interesting.

Mike Florio when this story first came out:

As talk goes among some of the folks we know in the NFL media, Walsh knows something. Something big.

We're not reporting at this time that Walsh knows anything. But we know for a fact that multiple members of the media were chasing Walsh in the wake of Spygate, trying to get him to talk on the record about what he knows. One came fairly close, but it ultimately didn't happen.

Why? Because Walsh is scared. And rightfully so. He's scared of getting sued into Mike Tyson-style bolivian.

"After speaking to my lawyers and whatnot, I can't really talk to you about anything," Walsh told the Times. "And I can't show you anything. If someone wanted me to talk and tell them things, I would craft an agreement where they would agree from now until the end of my existence to pay for any legal fees that came up in regards to this, whether I'm sued by the Patriots, the [NFL], anybody else."

Wow.

Folks, guys don't say things like that when they don't know anything, or when they don't think that what they know is important.

Mike Florio the next day:

And when focusing on Walsh's words, it becomes increasingly obvious that he knows something (or at least thinks he knows something) that hasn't already been publicly disclosed. It's also clear that Walsh is troubled. He rambles. At times, he makes little sense. Through it all, he seems less interested in doing the right thing than about what's in it for him.

"Maybe after this whole thing," Walsh told Fish, "you don't think I have a conscience because of the people I was exposed to and what they had me doing."

Maybe Walsh said that because he fears that his stance on the matter is a reflection that he truly has no conscience. He also doesn't have very good judgment, either. Why talk on the record at all unless he's ready to tell the whole story? And why authorize the New York Times and ESPN.com to print his first quotes on the matter in the days leading up to a historic Super Bowl?

It creates an impression that Walsh is indeed a disgruntled employee. He told Fish that he was fired in 2003 after working for one year as a scout. If Walsh didn't have a burr in his caboose over what happened five years ago, why would he be creating a disruption now?

So we're skeptical about this guy. It doesn't mean that he doesn't have solid information, and there's a strong sense that he has videotapes, but it's hard to give his cryptic comments much credibility unless and until he's ready to back them up with details.

 

[geoff8695]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

I posted in this thread to offer a different point of view, and to pose the question to the overly defensive Pats fan - what if more evidence of cheating comes to light? Not saying the '07 Pats aren't a worthy team, IMO they are a great team, one of the best I've ever watched play. However I don't have much respect for fans who try to justify cheating, and then proceed to tell me how cheating has no impact on the outcome of a contest.

If you really believe that nonsense, then why do it in the first place?

Let me help you:

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

 

[bostonfred]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating. I posted in this thread to offer a different point of view, and to pose the question to the overly defensive Pats fan - what if more evidence of cheating comes to light? Not saying the '07 Pats aren't a worthy team, IMO they are a great team, one of the best I've ever watched play. However I don't have much respect for fans who try to justify cheating, and then proceed to tell me how cheating has no impact on the outcome of a contest. If you really believe that nonsense, then why do it in the first place? Let me help you:There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

I can understand that argument, but it was legal to film. Just not the way that the Patriots were doing it. For that argument to hold water, you'd have to assume that the only reason to choose this means of taping over another was to gain an advantage. It's possible that they chose to film in that way was because it was easier logistically, or cheaper, or some other reason that doesn't impact game play. It's possible that Belichick told the truth when he said that it was a misinterpretation of the rules. Between ESPN whipping fans into a frenzy, the media jumping on board, and Goodell painting himself into a corner with a series of high profile, harsher than the previous regime punishments, the substantial penalty would still be consistent. To disagree with the above, you'd have to assume that Belichick lied when saying that it was a misinterpretation, and that Goodell lied when he said that it didn't impact the game. Even now, months later, all we have are cryptic comments from someone who hasn't worked for the organization in years and has been chased to Hawaii for interviews for months, and he still hasn't said anything substantive. I can understand why someone would be predisposed to think that everyone else was lying, but I don't think it gives you the moral high ground from which to say you don't have much respect for fans who believe that the coach and commissioner both told the truth.

 

[radiohead417]

I think it anything this should show a lesson to us all about winning. The message in all of this should be winning at all costs is a very, very bad thing. So many times, all of us seem like we're looking more to win 'within the rules'; by manipulating things rather than working hard and doing the best you can. Trying to get an edge, if you will. It shows than if you are willing to cross the line at all, then how far will you go?Because the Patriots used cameras once, now any claim against seems absolutely plausible. At this point, we can't give them the benefit of the doubt on these things because they've shown they're not worthy of that benefit. It's like a cheater at a card game. If he's willing to cheat once, who's to say he isn't willing to do it again? It's one thing to outscheme someone, or to read signals from a coach on the sidelines. But it's a complete other thing to use video.Bottom line, anyone who doesn't think it's possible (note I said possible) that the Patriots cheated on all three of their previous Super Bowl wins is being naive.So in other words, don't toe the line, don't cheat. Whatever you're trying to obtain, even if it is a Super Bowl, isn't worth ruining your reputation.

Serious question: as a fan, would you trade your team's last seven years to have the Patriots' last seven years?

I'm a Jaguars fan, and if the Pats cheated, I wouldn't trade any years for the Pats last seven years. You lose sight of the goal - it's not purely to win at any cost, it's to win by being the best. Otherwise, it's like cheating at solitaire. When are the Pats fans on the board going to realize, if you cheat at all, you've lost credit for everything you've done, or at minimum it's all thrown into question. If you make a crib sheet in school, but suddenly realize you don't need it, and your professor finds it, do they ask you if you would have passed the test anyway?I'm waiting for a Pats fan somewhere to come out and say - "This is awful. Bill Belichick has thrown every potential thing this franchise has accomplished into total chaos. I want my team to win fair and square, and even if they have, they've given everyone permission to question all our championships. He should be fired for ruining the integrity of my team. Winning by cheating is not how I want to win."But it seems like every fan wants to somehow dismiss all of this stuff. Folks, your own coach has given every fan and writer permission to question whether your team legitimately ever won anything. It's not the 'haters' and the 'evil media' who are the problem, it's your coach and whoever else allows this stuff.Again, I'm a Jags fan, and if my team won a championship I'd be ecstatic. But I'd rather have to wait 40 years and have a legit one than to get one and have it be questioned at all. In fact, I'd rather my team never win one at all than to do one by cheating.Patriots fans, I'm not here to try to take away from your team's accomplishments - your coach (and whoever else is responsible) has already done it. Dallas, Pittsburgh and San Francisco all had terrific dynasties in the 70, 80s and 90s. There's no questioning of their accomplishments. But because of a series of stupid acts, your team's accomplishments will perhaps always be in question. If I were a fan, that would infuriate me. I would be carrying a picket sign at the owner's house until he fired every person who had a hand in this.Otherwise, the owner is sending the message - cheating is OK as long as we win. And that's not OK with me.

 

[cstu]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

I posted in this thread to offer a different point of view, and to pose the question to the overly defensive Pats fan - what if more evidence of cheating comes to light? Not saying the '07 Pats aren't a worthy team, IMO they are a great team, one of the best I've ever watched play. However I don't have much respect for fans who try to justify cheating, and then proceed to tell me how cheating has no impact on the outcome of a contest.

If you really believe that nonsense, then why do it in the first place?

Let me help you:

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

I can understand that argument, but it was legal to film. Just not the way that the Patriots were doing it. For that argument to hold water, you'd have to assume that the only reason to choose this means of taping over another was to gain an advantage. It's possible that they chose to film in that way was because it was easier logistically, or cheaper, or some other reason that doesn't impact game play. It's possible that Belichick told the truth when he said that it was a misinterpretation of the rules. Between ESPN whipping fans into a frenzy, the media jumping on board, and Goodell painting himself into a corner with a series of high profile, harsher than the previous regime punishments, the substantial penalty would still be consistent. To disagree with the above, you'd have to assume that Belichick lied when saying that it was a misinterpretation, and that Goodell lied when he said that it didn't impact the game. Even now, months later, all we have are cryptic comments from someone who hasn't worked for the organization in years and has been chased to Hawaii for interviews for months, and he still hasn't said anything substantive. I can understand why someone would be predisposed to think that everyone else was lying, but I don't think it gives you the moral high ground from which to say you don't have much respect for fans who believe that the coach and commissioner both told the truth.

I'm sure a lot of people who voted for Nixon didn't want to believe he lied about Watergate either.

 

[geoff8695]

I can understand that argument, but it was legal to film. Just not the way that the Patriots were doing it. For that argument to hold water, you'd have to assume that the only reason to choose this means of taping over another was to gain an advantage. It's possible that they chose to film in that way was because it was easier logistically, or cheaper, or some other reason that doesn't impact game play. It's possible that Belichick told the truth when he said that it was a misinterpretation of the rules. Between ESPN whipping fans into a frenzy, the media jumping on board, and Goodell painting himself into a corner with a series of high profile, harsher than the previous regime punishments, the substantial penalty would still be consistent.

When has it ever been legal for a team to film the signals from the sidelines as plays are being sent into players on the field? Methinks you are in need of a new definition of what is legal and what is not legal.

To disagree with the above, you'd have to assume that Belichick lied when saying that it was a misinterpretation, and that Goodell lied when he said that it didn't impact the game. Even now, months later, all we have are cryptic comments from someone who hasn't worked for the organization in years and has been chased to Hawaii for interviews for months, and he still hasn't said anything substantive. I can understand why someone would be predisposed to think that everyone else was lying, but I don't think it gives you the moral high ground from which to say you don't have much respect for fans who believe that the coach and commissioner both told the truth.

When it comes to a history of lying BB has already shown us the duplicity of his personal life and his ability to deceive when it comes to his own marriage and the marriage of his mistress, so please don't paint him to be the ideal picture of honesty. BB grade school type excuse of not knowing or understanding the rules was apparently as transparent to Goodell as it was to the rest of us not wearing the Pats rose colored glasses, and is evidenced by the hefty fine levied directly at BB. As far as Goodell's statements, I never said that he outright lied. However you sure are extrapolating an awful lot more than what he actually said from the few statements he actually has made. Sure he has been very careful to say that taping sidelines in game wouldn't have provided an advantage during the game (assuming no wireless feed/ communications are taking place), but he has been very calculated in his words, and tried to put an end to the issue by quickly destroying the evidence that was given to his office. He never made a blanket statement exonerating the Pats, yet you seem to be inclined to give an unmerited 'benefit of the doubt' here. I don't blame you for that as a fan, but please don't try to pee down my backside and then tell me it's just raining.

 

[bostonfred]

you seem to be inclined to give an unmerited 'benefit of the doubt' here. I don't blame you for that as a fan

And that's really what this comes down to. When this first came out, and the implication was that there was a potentially massive scandal, I said at the time that I was very concerned as a fan, and would be disappointed if it turned out the Pats were cheating. Having found out what they did, I am concerned and disappointed, but I think it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. I'm fine with someone else feeling otherwise. It's no coincidence that there are people out there who want to use the spotlight of the Superbowl to raise questions about the team, or that there are fans who want to take this chance to fan the flames. I'm in no hurry to do that, nor should I be. At the end of the day, I've enjoyed watching this team for years, and I have a chance to see them do something historic tomorrow. If and when any real evidence of further wrongdoing comes out, I'll evaluate it then. In the meantime, I'm not surprised in the least that this came back up this week. It was widely predicted, back when this happened, that the topic would be brought up if the Pats went back to the Superbowl. The only surprising thing is that the shocking new evidence that has come to light is so flimsy, since the media has had so much time to dig for something. While you see that as "when there's smoke, there's fire", I see it as, "the other shoe dropped, and that's it?". That's not to say I'm dismissing it outright - I'm not. I just don't see any need to get fired up about it when there's a football game to be played. And as nobody's seriously questioned that this year's Patriots have earned every win this season fairly, I can enjoy the game tomorrow and see how things play out from there with a clean conscience.

 

[geoff8695]

you seem to be inclined to give an unmerited 'benefit of the doubt' here. I don't blame you for that as a fan

And that's really what this comes down to. When this first came out, and the implication was that there was a potentially massive scandal, I said at the time that I was very concerned as a fan, and would be disappointed if it turned out the Pats were cheating. Having found out what they did, I am concerned and disappointed, but I think it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. I'm fine with someone else feeling otherwise. It's no coincidence that there are people out there who want to use the spotlight of the Superbowl to raise questions about the team, or that there are fans who want to take this chance to fan the flames. I'm in no hurry to do that, nor should I be. At the end of the day, I've enjoyed watching this team for years, and I have a chance to see them do something historic tomorrow. If and when any real evidence of further wrongdoing comes out, I'll evaluate it then. In the meantime, I'm not surprised in the least that this came back up this week. It was widely predicted, back when this happened, that the topic would be brought up if the Pats went back to the Superbowl. The only surprising thing is that the shocking new evidence that has come to light is so flimsy, since the media has had so much time to dig for something. While you see that as "when there's smoke, there's fire", I see it as, "the other shoe dropped, and that's it?". That's not to say I'm dismissing it outright - I'm not. I just don't see any need to get fired up about it when there's a football game to be played. And as nobody's seriously questioned that this year's Patriots have earned every win this season fairly, I can enjoy the game tomorrow and see how things play out from there with a clean conscience.

fair enough, and for what its worth, I do agree with your sentiments about this season. This is a special moment in NFL history and you are very fortunate that you're favorite team is the one poised to make history.

 

[Little Lord Humpleroy]

you seem to be inclined to give an unmerited 'benefit of the doubt' here. I don't blame you for that as a fan

And that's really what this comes down to. When this first came out, and the implication was that there was a potentially massive scandal, I said at the time that I was very concerned as a fan, and would be disappointed if it turned out the Pats were cheating. Having found out what they did, I am concerned and disappointed, but I think it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. I'm fine with someone else feeling otherwise. It's no coincidence that there are people out there who want to use the spotlight of the Superbowl to raise questions about the team, or that there are fans who want to take this chance to fan the flames. I'm in no hurry to do that, nor should I be. At the end of the day, I've enjoyed watching this team for years, and I have a chance to see them do something historic tomorrow. If and when any real evidence of further wrongdoing comes out, I'll evaluate it then. In the meantime, I'm not surprised in the least that this came back up this week. It was widely predicted, back when this happened, that the topic would be brought up if the Pats went back to the Superbowl. The only surprising thing is that the shocking new evidence that has come to light is so flimsy, since the media has had so much time to dig for something. While you see that as "when there's smoke, there's fire", I see it as, "the other shoe dropped, and that's it?". That's not to say I'm dismissing it outright - I'm not. I just don't see any need to get fired up about it when there's a football game to be played. And as nobody's seriously questioned that this year's Patriots have earned every win this season fairly, I can enjoy the game tomorrow and see how things play out from there with a clean conscience.

 

[ichris]

As a die hard Rams fan I gotta say, I KNEW IT!!!

 

[SR388]

The Patriot fans are the only people who downplay the cheating. Where there is smoke there is fire. It doesn't matter if they cheated or didn't cheat at this point. The suspicion is out there in the publics mind and the Patriots have nobody to blame but themselves.

Their dynasty is already in question and the widespread speculation will only grow over time. The saddest part of all this is they were heralded for doing things the right way. I used to appreciate and admire the Patriots.

With every story of cheating and every twisting of an ankle by Rodney Harrison after a tackle diminishes that appreciation.

 

[AB in DC]

It doesn't matter if they cheated or didn't cheat at this point.

 

[SR388]

It doesn't matter if they cheated or didn't cheat at this point.

Way to take it out of context with the rest of my post. Number 1, they have already been found guilty of cheating - FACTMy point was that the perception of them being cheaters is already out there. Do you deny this?

 

[off]

it was legal to film. Just not the way that the Patriots were doing it.

Everything I read so far indicates it was not at all legal to film the Rams workout. Just curious what you meant by this. What way of filming would have been legal?

 

[Little Lord Humpleroy]

it was legal to film. Just not the way that the Patriots were doing it.

Everything I read so far indicates it was not at all legal to film the Rams workout. Just curious what you meant by this. What way of filming would have been legal?

I think he was referring to the Jet game.

 

[Routilla]

Cheaters are mofos. Time to start stripping Lombardis IMO.

 

[az_prof]

at what point does the "They still have to make the plays on the field to win" argument begin to lose water?

When there is actual evidence that the Pats gained a significant competitive advantage by breaking the rules?

That's a tall demand when the team and league conspired to destroy any evidence.

 

[{Syrus}]

Cheaters are mofos. Time to start stripping Lombardis IMO.

 

[AB in DC]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

 

[Road Warriors]

The Patriot fans are the only people who downplay the cheating. Where there is smoke there is fire. It doesn't matter if they cheated or didn't cheat at this point. The suspicion is out there in the publics mind and the Patriots have nobody to blame but themselves.

Their dynasty is already in question and the widespread speculation will only grow diminish over time. The saddest part of all this is they were heralded for doing things the right way. I used to appreciate and admire the Patriots.

With every story of cheating and every twisting of an ankle by Rodney Harrison after a tackle diminishes that appreciation.

Fixed.If they continue to win, maybe this is revisited. The media, and therefore the sheep that are the keepers of "public opinion" have a very short attention span. There will be another "great evil" being perpertrated on the unsuspecting sporting public that ESPN ( the Weekly World News of sports journalism ) will overhype...oops, I mean report on.

With every story of cheating with absolutely no proof, you're willing ( or maybe thrilled is the better term ) to throw this team and anything they've achieved over the past 7 years under the bus. With solid arguments such as "where there's smoke, there's fire" and "once a cheater, always a cheater"

For every one of you calling this your "proof" answer this. If there really is fire, is there any reason for you all to be jumping up & down now? You already KNOW this allegation is true, and there is going to be proof brought forth, right? Why not wait until you actually have something. You'd look a lot more evenhanded, and a lot less like the bandwagon sheep that "hate the Patriots"

 

[Little Lord Humpleroy]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

This guy gets it.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

This guy gets it.

It seems like the NFL & many Pats fans think that this should all be swept under the rug. Most sports scandals start this way, eventually the truth will become more apparent. Let the ex-Pats video guy in Hawaii talk to Arlen Spector with the threat of eventual "legal perjury" in front of a Senate Judiciary Committee hanging in the background. Put BB's lifetime "buddy" who has been in charge of Pats' security and filiming for years take the stand.

Put Roger Goddell on the hot seat. Roger did a "good 'ol boy" investigation. Quick, half-### and flush any evidence down the toilet. Contrast Goddell's efforts in this regard to Bud Selig and George Mitchell in baseball and Roger comes up short big time.

Let Spector inteview Tom Brady and help determine if the Pats had any advantages. Let Spector talk to Mangini relative to whether the Pats had any advantages. Let him talk to Matt Walsh as to whether the Pats filmed the Rams "walk through" before the Super Bowl and learned their Red Zone plays -- ESPN showed a Red Zone sequence from that Super Bowl. Pats shutting down the Rams repeatedly and then finally the Rams call a play that they hadn't practiced at all at the walk through and they score a TD untouched.

This will all come out in time. I think that it is great that Spector is getting involved as Goddell did a half-baked job and has left the perception that there may have been a "cover up".

 

[scott72]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

This guy gets it.Ceal

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation, which I do for a living, and there are things out there that don't add up, you check into it further. You've all seen the network crime shows. Very simply if it doesn't pass the smell test, then you look into it. Clearly there are a few things out there that don't add up. Destroying the tapes is the first fishy thing. Don't give me that crap about making sure no other team uses them. If they're locked up in NFL offices, what are they afraid of? Second is this Walsh guy. Is he jockeying for a payout? Maybe, but again as an investigator these things have to be checked out. Last but not least is the possible taping of the Rams walkthrough. Might it be nothing? Sure of course, but again, it's something that needs to be either found as credible or a non-issue. It's simply a disservice to football fans everywhere to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's over for the sake of the NFL's image. Until a full investigation is done and an outside agency does it (congress or whoever), then these issues will live on and fans (including Pat) fans will wonder what really happened. I mean seriously, as a Pat fan wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of this so you can finally say your Championship seasons were legit? I know I would if it happened to my team.

 

[Finless]

Nothing but a smear campaign. Why did this story come out now? The guilt this guy's been carrying for 7 years finally got to him?

I will say if they taped the walk through, that's bad and I would consider that cheating more so than what happened earlier this year.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

This guy gets it.Ceal

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation, which I do for a living, and there are things out there that don't add up, you check into it further. You've all seen the network crime shows. Very simply if it doesn't pass the smell test, then you look into it. Clearly there are a few things out there that don't add up. Destroying the tapes is the first fishy thing. Don't give me that crap about making sure no other team uses them. If they're locked up in NFL offices, what are they afraid of? Second is this Walsh guy. Is he jockeying for a payout? Maybe, but again as an investigator these things have to be checked out. Last but not least is the possible taping of the Rams walkthrough. Might it be nothing? Sure of course, but again, it's something that needs to be either found as credible or a non-issue. It's simply a disservice to football fans everywhere to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's over for the sake of the NFL's image. Until a full investigation is done and an outside agency does it (congress or whoever), then these issues will live on and fans (including Pat) fans will wonder what really happened. I mean seriously, as a Pat fan wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of this so you can finally say your Championship seasons were legit? I know I would if it happened to my team.

You are confusing multiple issues.1. Evidence was gathered of videotaping and of notes listing opposing teams defensive calls.

2. It could not be determined if prior videotaping was obtained legally or otherwise.

3. The league office locked up the tapes and there was then a leak.

4. Goodell, in communication with Jim Irsay the Rooney family and others, determined the best course of action was to destroy the tapes.

5. The league office commented that no evidence reviewed indicated any obtainment of competitive advantage.

6. The league office commented that this practice was widespread and known, citing examples of defensive coaches waving at cameras.

7. AFTER all of the above, an OLD story re-surfaces, with CLAIMS of a pre-super bowl videotape.

As a Patriots fan, I am EAGER for any "evidence" to be brought forward, and note that the Patriots have labelled such a CLAIM as "absolutely false".

 

[fatness]

If I'm doing a criminal investigation, which I do for a living, and there are things out there that don't add up, you check into it further. You've all seen the network crime shows. Very simply if it doesn't pass the smell test, then you look into it. Clearly there are a few things out there that don't add up. Destroying the tapes is the first fishy thing. Don't give me that crap about making sure no other team uses them. If they're locked up in NFL offices, what are they afraid of? Second is this Walsh guy. Is he jockeying for a payout? Maybe, but again as an investigator these things have to be checked out. Last but not least is the possible taping of the Rams walkthrough. Might it be nothing? Sure of course, but again, it's something that needs to be either found as credible or a non-issue. It's simply a disservice to football fans everywhere to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's over for the sake of the NFL's image.

Well said.

 

[kevinray]

Goodell: "I think as far as the actual effectiveness of taping signals, as you all know, taking signals from opposing football teams or in other sports is done and it is done quite widely and teams prepare for that. There isn’t a team that doesn’t go into a game prepared for that because of the complex nature of the way they handle either their wristbands, different coaches sending signals in live or not. They all protect against that. I think it probably had a limited effect, if any effect, on the outcome on any game."

Try and keep up.

Hmmmm.... Now that's funny...Goodell says there's a "limited effect, if any on the outcome of any game" with his words.

Yet with his actions hands out the stiffest penalty of all time against the NE Patriots organization.

I'm growing tired of explaining this. You clearly don't understand what the crime was that the patriots were guilty of despite the fact that it’s been repeated time and time again. The Patriots were guilty of and punished for have a recording device not in a properly enclosed area with a roof overhead. The act of film anything on the field is legal. It’s legal to try and interpret signals. It is not legal to record anything if that camera is not placed legally. The Patriots were reminded of this more then once and disobeyed the league for reasons I still don't understand. For this they were punished. The commissioner investigated this specific crime and came to the conclusion that the patriots didn't gain a competitive advantage since they didn't review the film during the game. Any reviewing of the film afterwards was deemed ok competitive wise since the same information could've been gathered legally. If the patriots have done anything thing else illegal then it'll be investigated as well but until the league finds something more tangible then this one article then nothing big is going to happen.

 

[AB in DC]

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation,

I can't believe some people here. We're talking about NFL rules around videotaping, and now you want to launch a criminal investigation??

 

[fatness]

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation,

I can't believe some people here. We're talking about NFL rules around videotaping, and now you want to launch a criminal investigation??

You'd prefer an investigation done to lower, sloppier standards? Goodell: Did you guys do anything wrong?

Patriots: no

 

[scott72]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

This guy gets it.Ceal

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation, which I do for a living, and there are things out there that don't add up, you check into it further. You've all seen the network crime shows. Very simply if it doesn't pass the smell test, then you look into it. Clearly there are a few things out there that don't add up. Destroying the tapes is the first fishy thing. Don't give me that crap about making sure no other team uses them. If they're locked up in NFL offices, what are they afraid of? Second is this Walsh guy. Is he jockeying for a payout? Maybe, but again as an investigator these things have to be checked out. Last but not least is the possible taping of the Rams walkthrough. Might it be nothing? Sure of course, but again, it's something that needs to be either found as credible or a non-issue. It's simply a disservice to football fans everywhere to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's over for the sake of the NFL's image. Until a full investigation is done and an outside agency does it (congress or whoever), then these issues will live on and fans (including Pat) fans will wonder what really happened. I mean seriously, as a Pat fan wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of this so you can finally say your Championship seasons were legit? I know I would if it happened to my team.

You are confusing multiple issues.1. Evidence was gathered of videotaping and of notes listing opposing teams defensive calls.

2. It could not be determined if prior videotaping was obtained legally or otherwise.

3. The league office locked up the tapes and there was then a leak.

4. Goodell, in communication with Jim Irsay the Rooney family and others, determined the best course of action was to destroy the tapes.

5. The league office commented that no evidence reviewed indicated any obtainment of competitive advantage.

6. The league office commented that this practice was widespread and known, citing examples of defensive coaches waving at cameras.

7. AFTER all of the above, an OLD story re-surfaces, with CLAIMS of a pre-super bowl videotape.

As a Patriots fan, I am EAGER for any "evidence" to be brought forward, and note that the Patriots have labelled such a CLAIM as "absolutely false".

How could taping, combined with defensive calls not be determined to be an unfair advantage? I'm assuming the notes were with the tapes? If there was a leak, then the NFL office has some internal problems that need to be addressed. This still does not give them the right to destroy evidence. I can't do that without a judge's order. I agree that the pre-super bowl tape is highly speculative at this point, but again needs to be checked into even if it is a dead end.

 

[scott72]

Goodell: "I think as far as the actual effectiveness of taping signals, as you all know, taking signals from opposing football teams or in other sports is done and it is done quite widely and teams prepare for that. There isn’t a team that doesn’t go into a game prepared for that because of the complex nature of the way they handle either their wristbands, different coaches sending signals in live or not. They all protect against that. I think it probably had a limited effect, if any effect, on the outcome on any game."

Try and keep up.

Hmmmm.... Now that's funny...Goodell says there's a "limited effect, if any on the outcome of any game" with his words.

Yet with his actions hands out the stiffest penalty of all time against the NE Patriots organization.

The commissioner investigated this specific crime and came to the conclusion that the patriots didn't gain a competitive advantage since they didn't review the film during the game.

So no advantage was given? Come on, there were notes found too. You watch the tapes the week you prepare, you make notes for gameday. So it's all legal since your not actually sitting on the sideline with a playback device reviewing the tapes?

 

[kevinray]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

This guy gets it.Ceal

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation, which I do for a living, and there are things out there that don't add up, you check into it further. You've all seen the network crime shows. Very simply if it doesn't pass the smell test, then you look into it. Clearly there are a few things out there that don't add up. Destroying the tapes is the first fishy thing. Don't give me that crap about making sure no other team uses them. If they're locked up in NFL offices, what are they afraid of? Second is this Walsh guy. Is he jockeying for a payout? Maybe, but again as an investigator these things have to be checked out. Last but not least is the possible taping of the Rams walkthrough. Might it be nothing? Sure of course, but again, it's something that needs to be either found as credible or a non-issue. It's simply a disservice to football fans everywhere to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's over for the sake of the NFL's image. Until a full investigation is done and an outside agency does it (congress or whoever), then these issues will live on and fans (including Pat) fans will wonder what really happened. I mean seriously, as a Pat fan wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of this so you can finally say your Championship seasons were legit? I know I would if it happened to my team.

You are confusing multiple issues.1. Evidence was gathered of videotaping and of notes listing opposing teams defensive calls.

2. It could not be determined if prior videotaping was obtained legally or otherwise.

3. The league office locked up the tapes and there was then a leak.

4. Goodell, in communication with Jim Irsay the Rooney family and others, determined the best course of action was to destroy the tapes.

5. The league office commented that no evidence reviewed indicated any obtainment of competitive advantage.

6. The league office commented that this practice was widespread and known, citing examples of defensive coaches waving at cameras.

7. AFTER all of the above, an OLD story re-surfaces, with CLAIMS of a pre-super bowl videotape.

As a Patriots fan, I am EAGER for any "evidence" to be brought forward, and note that the Patriots have labelled such a CLAIM as "absolutely false".

How could taping, combined with defensive calls not be determined to be an unfair advantage? I'm assuming the notes were with the tapes? If there was a leak, then the NFL office has some internal problems that need to be addressed. This still does not give them the right to destroy evidence. I can't do that without a judge's order. I agree that the pre-super bowl tape is highly speculative at this point, but again needs to be checked into even if it is a dead end.

Because its legal to do. Every team can record anything on the feild for game film purposes. You just have to have the camera in an enclosed area with a roof over head and not communicate anything recorded during the game. Get with it.

 

[scott72]

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation,

I can't believe some people here. We're talking about NFL rules around videotaping, and now you want to launch a criminal investigation??

I'm not linking the two at all. I'm comparing how a criminal investigation would parallel this scenario as far as checking out inconsistencies. This is clearly not a criminal situation unless of course someone is about to commit perjury.

 

[scott72]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

This guy gets it.Ceal

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation, which I do for a living, and there are things out there that don't add up, you check into it further. You've all seen the network crime shows. Very simply if it doesn't pass the smell test, then you look into it. Clearly there are a few things out there that don't add up. Destroying the tapes is the first fishy thing. Don't give me that crap about making sure no other team uses them. If they're locked up in NFL offices, what are they afraid of? Second is this Walsh guy. Is he jockeying for a payout? Maybe, but again as an investigator these things have to be checked out. Last but not least is the possible taping of the Rams walkthrough. Might it be nothing? Sure of course, but again, it's something that needs to be either found as credible or a non-issue. It's simply a disservice to football fans everywhere to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's over for the sake of the NFL's image. Until a full investigation is done and an outside agency does it (congress or whoever), then these issues will live on and fans (including Pat) fans will wonder what really happened. I mean seriously, as a Pat fan wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of this so you can finally say your Championship seasons were legit? I know I would if it happened to my team.

You are confusing multiple issues.1. Evidence was gathered of videotaping and of notes listing opposing teams defensive calls.

2. It could not be determined if prior videotaping was obtained legally or otherwise.

3. The league office locked up the tapes and there was then a leak.

4. Goodell, in communication with Jim Irsay the Rooney family and others, determined the best course of action was to destroy the tapes.

5. The league office commented that no evidence reviewed indicated any obtainment of competitive advantage.

6. The league office commented that this practice was widespread and known, citing examples of defensive coaches waving at cameras.

7. AFTER all of the above, an OLD story re-surfaces, with CLAIMS of a pre-super bowl videotape.

As a Patriots fan, I am EAGER for any "evidence" to be brought forward, and note that the Patriots have labelled such a CLAIM as "absolutely false".

How could taping, combined with defensive calls not be determined to be an unfair advantage? I'm assuming the notes were with the tapes? If there was a leak, then the NFL office has some internal problems that need to be addressed. This still does not give them the right to destroy evidence. I can't do that without a judge's order. I agree that the pre-super bowl tape is highly speculative at this point, but again needs to be checked into even if it is a dead end.

Because its legal to do. Every team can record anything on the feild for game film purposes. You just have to have the camera in an enclosed area with a roof over head and not communicate anything recorded during the game. Get with it.

Well if it really is this simple, then why didn't the Patriots cheat the legal way? Throw a damn roof over your camera and steal the opponents defensive signals. The question is whether they were or were not communicated during the game. Maybe Mr. Walsh can shed some light on that very question.

 

[kevinray]

I know I've tweaked some Pats fans but here, but IMO some of you just want to sugar coat and make excuses for the organization's cheating.

...

There is no reason to cheat unless it does yield an advantage, and if BB is the genius that everyone seems to think he is, than I would suppose that there REALLY would be no reason to cheat UNLESS IT MOST DEFINITELY GAVE THE PATS AN ADVANTAGE.

Not sure if you were referring to me, but my earlier comments to you were only related to the latest rumor, not the stuff from earlier this year. And right now, there is no evidence whatsoever that BB cheated in 2002. All that's happening now is media manipulation by two outlets (ESPN, Boston Herald) that like to pretend that they are serious news organizations, when the truth is that they make a ton of money from from stirring up controversies on their own.It's classic misdirection -- make people think that this is about Patriots cheating, when the real story is how BH sells newspapers and how ESPN drives up their ratings.

In other words, when you say "where there's smoke, there's fire", I say, someone is just blowing smoke.

If and when there is any actual evidence, I'd be happy to join this conservation.

This guy gets it.Ceal

No this guy doesn't get it. If I'm doing a criminal investigation, which I do for a living, and there are things out there that don't add up, you check into it further. You've all seen the network crime shows. Very simply if it doesn't pass the smell test, then you look into it. Clearly there are a few things out there that don't add up. Destroying the tapes is the first fishy thing. Don't give me that crap about making sure no other team uses them. If they're locked up in NFL offices, what are they afraid of? Second is this Walsh guy. Is he jockeying for a payout? Maybe, but again as an investigator these things have to be checked out. Last but not least is the possible taping of the Rams walkthrough. Might it be nothing? Sure of course, but again, it's something that needs to be either found as credible or a non-issue. It's simply a disservice to football fans everywhere to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's over for the sake of the NFL's image. Until a full investigation is done and an outside agency does it (congress or whoever), then these issues will live on and fans (including Pat) fans will wonder what really happened. I mean seriously, as a Pat fan wouldn't you want to get to the bottom of this so you can finally say your Championship seasons were legit? I know I would if it happened to my team.

You are confusing multiple issues.1. Evidence was gathered of videotaping and of notes listing opposing teams defensive calls.

2. It could not be determined if prior videotaping was obtained legally or otherwise.

3. The league office locked up the tapes and there was then a leak.

4. Goodell, in communication with Jim Irsay the Rooney family and others, determined the best course of action was to destroy the tapes.

5. The league office commented that no evidence reviewed indicated any obtainment of competitive advantage.

6. The league office commented that this practice was widespread and known, citing examples of defensive coaches waving at cameras.

7. AFTER all of the above, an OLD story re-surfaces, with CLAIMS of a pre-super bowl videotape.

As a Patriots fan, I am EAGER for any "evidence" to be brought forward, and note that the Patriots have labelled such a CLAIM as "absolutely false".

How could taping, combined with defensive calls not be determined to be an unfair advantage? I'm assuming the notes were with the tapes? If there was a leak, then the NFL office has some internal problems that need to be addressed. This still does not give them the right to destroy evidence. I can't do that without a judge's order. I agree that the pre-super bowl tape is highly speculative at this point, but again needs to be checked into even if it is a dead end.

Because its legal to do. Every team can record anything on the feild for game film purposes. You just have to have the camera in an enclosed area with a roof over head and not communicate anything recorded during the game. Get with it.

Well if it really is this simple, then why didn't the Patriots cheat the legal way? Throw a damn roof over your camera and steal the opponents defensive signals. The question is whether they were or were not communicated during the game. Maybe Mr. Walsh can shed some light on that very question.

I don't know why they didn't. It would seem as if they should. The NFL did a full investigation and came to the conclusion that there was no violation in the realm of communication. Mr. Walsh is a completely different matter which needs to be looked into. It has nothing to do with the Spygate investigation and would result in more penalties if more cheating occured.Here’s the wikipedia excerpt about the rule violation and one of Bills responses.

Page 105 of the 2007 NFL "Game Operations Manual" states, "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." Belichick stated that he believed that if footage so collected was not used during the game, its collection was legal, as the NFL Constitution and Bylaws stipulate that "...any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited...that might aid a team during the playing of a game."[5]

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

How could taping, combined with defensive calls not be determined to be an unfair advantage? I'm assuming the notes were with the tapes? If there was a leak, then the NFL office has some internal problems that need to be addressed. This still does not give them the right to destroy evidence. I can't do that without a judge's order. I agree that the pre-super bowl tape is highly speculative at this point, but again needs to be checked into even if it is a dead end.

In Goodell's statements, he has explained on several occasions that one of the key reasons why there is no unfair advantage gained is because signal-stealing is institutionalized around the league to such an extent that it is perceived as commonplace and therefore that all teams take corrective actions to avoid being disadvantaged by disguising and changing signals, etc. If you have any familiarity with records retention policies as they exist in corporations, you should be aware that corporations do not need some sort of congressionally authorized "right to destroy evidence" associated with that organization's rules governing competition. The NFL is allowed to administrate itself. Period. This is contrasted by Major League Baseball, which is governed by anti-trust exempt status, and by the steroids investigation, which concerns itself with matters of breaking the law, not of breaking internal rules.If you have opinions about what's an advantage, and what should be investigated, that's fine, but keep in mind that your opinions may not be relevant to what ends up taking place.

 

[Statorama]

I think it anything this should show a lesson to us all about winning. The message in all of this should be winning at all costs is a very, very bad thing. So many times, all of us seem like we're looking more to win 'within the rules'; by manipulating things rather than working hard and doing the best you can. Trying to get an edge, if you will. It shows than if you are willing to cross the line at all, then how far will you go?Because the Patriots used cameras once, now any claim against seems absolutely plausible. At this point, we can't give them the benefit of the doubt on these things because they've shown they're not worthy of that benefit. It's like a cheater at a card game. If he's willing to cheat once, who's to say he isn't willing to do it again? It's one thing to outscheme someone, or to read signals from a coach on the sidelines. But it's a complete other thing to use video.Bottom line, anyone who doesn't think it's possible (note I said possible) that the Patriots cheated on all three of their previous Super Bowl wins is being naive.So in other words, don't toe the line, don't cheat. Whatever you're trying to obtain, even if it is a Super Bowl, isn't worth ruining your reputation.

There's good stuff here guy, but Patriot fans are going to bury you for it.Good posting though

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I keep seeing the argument that the Patriots were caught for using cameras only once. I get that the NFL punished them for the one incident. My problem is I keep remembering that the reason they got caught is that an ex-employee, highly placed in the organization, knew to look for it and how to bust it because the process was institutionalized for years while he was there. I find it difficult to ignore that. The Pats had institutionalized spying, granted as have many NFL teams in all likelihood, but they took it further by cheating during that unscrupulous process. They lack class and integrity. Others may as well, but they definitely do. Will my panties get particularly bunched over this, no, but nor will I deny the information before me. If Pats fans get upset over my beliefs, too bad. If they choose to dismiss them out of hand, that's fine too. In the end I will never convince them to see things my way, and they will never convince me otherwise. They are a great, but deeply flawed team. Not surprising as that is the general human condition.

 

[nerangers]

The Patriot fans are the only people who downplay the cheating. Where there is smoke there is fire. It doesn't matter if they cheated or didn't cheat at this point. The suspicion is out there in the publics mind and the Patriots have nobody to blame but themselves.Their dynasty is already in question and the widespread speculation will only grow over time. The saddest part of all this is they were heralded for doing things the right way. I used to appreciate and admire the Patriots. With every story of cheating and every twisting of an ankle by Rodney Harrison after a tackle diminishes that appreciation.

Not all Patfans...it is easy to defend Belichick and his actions when you live in the safe bubble of New England. I been a Patriots fan all my life, and it is a lot tougher living in PA as one. I was glad that spygate was exposed week one, and not later in the season. I look for this one Super Bowl to be the one that people would consider not tainted (even though spygate was this season). It is not like the Patriots have not been under the microscope by other teams, and the NFL since spygate broke.I really want the Patriots to win this Super Bowl...not for Belichick and history, but for the Fans!

 

[Statorama]

The Patriot fans are the only people who downplay the cheating. Where there is smoke there is fire. It doesn't matter if they cheated or didn't cheat at this point. The suspicion is out there in the publics mind and the Patriots have nobody to blame but themselves.Their dynasty is already in question and the widespread speculation will only grow over time. The saddest part of all this is they were heralded for doing things the right way. I used to appreciate and admire the Patriots. With every story of cheating and every twisting of an ankle by Rodney Harrison after a tackle diminishes that appreciation.

Don't forget the steroid (or was it HGH?) use or the crack back blocks by their linemen

 

[bostonfred]

I think it anything this should show a lesson to us all about winning. The message in all of this should be winning at all costs is a very, very bad thing. So many times, all of us seem like we're looking more to win 'within the rules'; by manipulating things rather than working hard and doing the best you can. Trying to get an edge, if you will. It shows than if you are willing to cross the line at all, then how far will you go?Because the Patriots used cameras once, now any claim against seems absolutely plausible. At this point, we can't give them the benefit of the doubt on these things because they've shown they're not worthy of that benefit. It's like a cheater at a card game. If he's willing to cheat once, who's to say he isn't willing to do it again? It's one thing to outscheme someone, or to read signals from a coach on the sidelines. But it's a complete other thing to use video.Bottom line, anyone who doesn't think it's possible (note I said possible) that the Patriots cheated on all three of their previous Super Bowl wins is being naive.So in other words, don't toe the line, don't cheat. Whatever you're trying to obtain, even if it is a Super Bowl, isn't worth ruining your reputation.

There's good stuff here guy, but Patriot fans are going to bury you for it.Good posting though

In post #87 in the thread, you bump a post from page one (post #29) and claim that Patriots fans are going to bury him for it? I think I'm the only other person who replied to this post, and I only asked him a question.

 

[Statorama]

I think it anything this should show a lesson to us all about winning. The message in all of this should be winning at all costs is a very, very bad thing. So many times, all of us seem like we're looking more to win 'within the rules'; by manipulating things rather than working hard and doing the best you can. Trying to get an edge, if you will. It shows than if you are willing to cross the line at all, then how far will you go?Because the Patriots used cameras once, now any claim against seems absolutely plausible. At this point, we can't give them the benefit of the doubt on these things because they've shown they're not worthy of that benefit. It's like a cheater at a card game. If he's willing to cheat once, who's to say he isn't willing to do it again? It's one thing to outscheme someone, or to read signals from a coach on the sidelines. But it's a complete other thing to use video.Bottom line, anyone who doesn't think it's possible (note I said possible) that the Patriots cheated on all three of their previous Super Bowl wins is being naive.So in other words, don't toe the line, don't cheat. Whatever you're trying to obtain, even if it is a Super Bowl, isn't worth ruining your reputation.

There's good stuff here guy, but Patriot fans are going to bury you for it.Good posting though

In post #87 in the thread, you bump a post from page one (post #29) and claim that Patriots fans are going to bury him for it? I think I'm the only other person who replied to this post, and I only asked him a question.

It's still early.