Most Overrated NFL Player Today (1 Viewer)

[Moniker]

I don't understand what criteria people are using when they say Overrated ...

Lets use CJ as an example, in the past 5 seasons,

CJ AVERAGED:

92.4 catches with a low of 87

1374 yds with a low of 1274

8.6 tds with a low of 7

He made the Pro-Bowl in all 5 years while playing 78 of 80 possible regular season games. He's a true #1 often facing double-coverage. He's given every defensive back he plays against a chance to make a name stopping him.

His WR fantasy ranking in those 5 years were in order (3,9,4,4,6) for an average of 5.2

So in the past FIVE years the worst a fantasy player could have done was to draft him as WR#1 overall and he finished 9th.

I agree that his numbers are streaky at times but many WRs have this problem, it's inherent in the position.

Everyone has the right to Not LIKE a player but to turn that into "ah, he's overrated" ... is simply a misuse of the term unless you judge him to be the BEST WR in the game, which I don't see many people do. Lot's of people rank him top 5, and his AVERAGE fantasy finish of 5.2 in the past 5 years proves that as fact.

All stats from here: Pro Football Reference

It's trendy these days to call CJ overrated. Bonus points for calling him the 'second best receiver on his own team'.

I was about to lose all respect for the Pool before I came across these posts.CJ overrated. Not in a million years. You may not like the guy, but he produces... and Truman -- you're absolutely correct -- it is trendy to call CJ overrated these days and I can't believe the amount of people who actually think Housh is better. Here's to hoping CJ does sit out, we'll see just how good Housh is when he's the one who is facing double and triple teams every play.

 

[FavreCo]

It is painful. They get a first down because he cant make the throw to half-way covered receivers and he ends up running for his life and at the last second he falls over the first down marker. I've seen it time and time again.

Classic! The most concise scouting report of the skill (or rather lack of skill) of Vince Young. Man is he going to suck this coming year.

 

[FavreCo]

But what about the time Vince drove his team all the way to the opponent's 43 yard line, then WILLED his kicker to kick a 60-yard field goal?WINNER. Period.

Without Vince on the sidelines mirroring Bironas as he attempts that kick, they lose that game. THE WILL THAT IS VINCE YOUNG!!!!!

 

[Godsbrother]

Ray Lewis

Ray Lewis has been overrated for years.

You obviously don't know football. You may not like him. He may be brash, but don't confuse that with being overrated.

Just because I disagree with you I don't know football. Ray Lewis was a terrific LB in his prime but that was years ago. He is still good but isn't anywhere close to being the best LB in football which is what the announcers would have you believe.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Ray Lewis

Ray Lewis has been overrated for years.

You obviously don't know football. You may not like him. He may be brash, but don't confuse that with being overrated.

Ah, the old "you obviously don't know football" routine. Haven't seen that in a few days.

 

[Andy Herron]

What about Deion Branch?

Outside of being awarded the MVP of that Super Bowl, what has he ever really done?

Forget the ACL injury last year, that's beside the point.

If I remember correctly, didn't Seattle give up two 1st round picks for him?

Or was it a first and something else?

In any case, New England replaced him by giving up a 4th rounder for Randy Moss.

Somebody got schooled there.

 

[JamesTheScot]

You stat geeks that have never seen the football field forget that the only number that matters is 10. That is the number of wins he led the Titans too while playing in the toughest division in football. Will he ever break Marino's records? No, but he will win more Superbowls if the Titans provide wr like Marino had in Miami.

Are you on crack? In 2007 Vince Young, a second year starter, had Roydell Williams (drafted in the 4th) and Brandon Johnson (drafted in the 3rd), they were both in their 3rd "breakout year". They combined for 76/1043.

Marino, in his second year starting, had Mark Duper (drafted in the 2nd) in his 3rd year and Mark Clayton (drafted in the 8th) in his 2nd year. They combined for 144/2695.

Did you hear me?

Mark Clayton, probably the best of any of the WR's Marino had statistically, was an 8th round draft pick (223rd overall) in 1983. He went 73/1389 in his second year. Yet Marino had better WR's than Young?

That's like saying you think Justin Harper-Baltimore, Brett Swain-Green Bay, Steve Johnson-Buffalo or Chaz Schilens-Oakland from the 2008 draft are so good they are going elevate their QB into one of the top 3 statistical seasons ever and personally post a 71/1300 season in 2009 and go on to be hall of famers.

Nat Moore and Irving Fryar had some of the best years of their careers in their mid-30's catching balls from Dan Marino.

And BTW, the number is 14, not 10. That's how many wins Marino had in his 2nd year as a starter.

 

[dparker713]

You stat geeks that have never seen the football field forget that the only number that matters is 10. That is the number of wins he led the Titans too while playing in the toughest division in football. Will he ever break Marino's records? No, but he will win more Superbowls if the Titans provide wr like Marino had in Miami.

Are you on crack? In 2007 Vince Young, a second year starter, had Roydell Williams (drafted in the 4th) and Brandon Johnson (drafted in the 3rd), they were both in their 3rd "breakout year". They combined for 76/1043.

Marino, in his second year starting, had Mark Duper (drafted in the 2nd) in his 3rd year and Mark Clayton (drafted in the 8th) in his 2nd year. They combined for 144/2695.

Did you hear me?

Mark Clayton, probably the best of any of the WR's Marino had statistically, was an 8th round draft pick (223rd overall) in 1983. He went 73/1389 in his second year. Yet Marino had better WR's than Young?

That's like saying you think Justin Harper-Baltimore, Brett Swain-Green Bay, Steve Johnson-Buffalo or Chaz Schilens-Oakland from the 2008 draft are so good they are going elevate their QB into one of the top 3 statistical seasons ever and personally post a 71/1300 season in 2009 and go on to be hall of famers.

Nat Moore and Irving Fryar had some of the best years of their careers in their mid-30's catching balls from Dan Marino.

And BTW, the number is 14, not 10. That's how many wins Marino had in his 2nd year as a starter.

How exactly does where a player was drafted determine if he was a good player? By your reasoning Todd Blackledge must have been much better than Marino, as he was taken 7th overall and was the second QB off the board while Marino was the 5th. By your reasoning, Williams and Johnson are better than Donald Driver.

 

[Godsbrother]

How exactly does where a player was drafted determine if he was a good player?

It doesn't. But I think the point he was making is that Marino's WRs weren't superstars until they landed in Miami and had Marino throwing to them.I understand that Young doesn't have great WRs to throw to but I hope no one here is suggesting that Young is as good a passer as Marino right? If so please put the bong down...

 

[Irish]

You stat geeks that have never seen the football field forget that the only number that matters is 10. That is the number of wins he led the Titans too while playing in the toughest division in football. Will he ever break Marino's records? No, but he will win more Superbowls if the Titans provide wr like Marino had in Miami.

Are you on crack? In 2007 Vince Young, a second year starter, had Roydell Williams (drafted in the 4th) and Brandon Johnson (drafted in the 3rd), they were both in their 3rd "breakout year". They combined for 76/1043.

Marino, in his second year starting, had Mark Duper (drafted in the 2nd) in his 3rd year and Mark Clayton (drafted in the 8th) in his 2nd year. They combined for 144/2695.

Did you hear me?

Mark Clayton, probably the best of any of the WR's Marino had statistically, was an 8th round draft pick (223rd overall) in 1983. He went 73/1389 in his second year. Yet Marino had better WR's than Young?

That's like saying you think Justin Harper-Baltimore, Brett Swain-Green Bay, Steve Johnson-Buffalo or Chaz Schilens-Oakland from the 2008 draft are so good they are going elevate their QB into one of the top 3 statistical seasons ever and personally post a 71/1300 season in 2009 and go on to be hall of famers.

Nat Moore and Irving Fryar had some of the best years of their careers in their mid-30's catching balls from Dan Marino.

And BTW, the number is 14, not 10. That's how many wins Marino had in his 2nd year as a starter.

Somebody should let the Patriots know that Ryan Leaf is available and he is a better qb than Tom Brady because he was drafted #2 overall and the talentless Brady wasn't drafted until rd 6. This time of year in the Shark Pool never seems to amaze me anymore.

 

[Irish]

How exactly does where a player was drafted determine if he was a good player?

It doesn't. But I think the point he was making is that Marino's WRs weren't superstars until they landed in Miami and had Marino throwing to them.I understand that Young doesn't have great WRs to throw to but I hope no one here is suggesting that Young is as good a passer as Marino right? If so please put the bong down...

Duper played his entire career in Miami and Clayton played in Miami except for his last season in GB. They were both 1,000 yard wr by their 2nd season. They were excellent wr from the get go.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

As we're three pages in, is it safe to assume Brian Urlacher has been declared the consensus choice and you are now discussing the competition for second-most overrated player?

 

[JamesTheScot]

How exactly does where a player was drafted determine if he was a good player?

It doesn't. But I think the point he was making is that Marino's WRs weren't superstars until they landed in Miami and had Marino throwing to them.I understand that Young doesn't have great WRs to throw to but I hope no one here is suggesting that Young is as good a passer as Marino right? If so please put the bong down...

Exactly.People say Marino is over-rated because he had Clayton and Duper or that if so-and-so had his receivers they'd have put up his kinda numbers. While it's curious that they all three came into the league at roughly the same time, Clayton was an 8th rounder. An 8th rounder!!!!!! I'm not talking about 1st vs. 2nd round or even 1st vs. 4th or 5th. The 8th round!!!!!If Flacco and Justin Harper hooked up for 1300 yards in 2009, that's like saying Harper is the reason.The 2008 "who?" list I posted were WR's taken in similar spots to Clayton. Yet Clayton went off in his second year ('84) after catching 6/114 in his rookie year. And 5'9" was short even back in the 80's. Both Duper and Clayton were tiny. Wes Welker is Mark Clayton. Anyone want to opine that Brady wouldn't be that good if it weren't for Welker?In 1993 at age 32 Clayton signed with GB to catch 32/331 from Favre and then retired. In 1994 at age 32 Irving Fryar caught 73/1270 from Marino.Clayton and Duper are 41st and 47th respectively in career yards with 11 seasons each. Joey Galloway is 23rd after 13 seasons and Keyshawn Johnson is 24th with 11 years. Muhsin Muhammad is 30th after 12 seasons. Derrick Mason is 39th after 11 seasons. Amani Toomer is 45th after 12 seasons. Terry Glenn is 48th after 12 seasons. Rod Smith is 19th with 12 seasons. Bruce and Holt are 3rd and 17th respectively after 14 and 9 years respectively. Rice and Owens are 1st and 10th. Yet Clayon and Duper made Marino.BTW, some other interesting tandem QB/WR/WR combos to look at...Chandler/Martin/Mathis in 1998 combined for 130/2317. Martin was a 5th rounder and Mathis was a 6th rounder. Chandler passed for 3154 that season.Palmer/Johnson/Housh in 2007 combined for 205/2573. Johnson is a 2nd rounder and Housh is a 7th rounder. That's pretty close to Duper and Clayton but Johnson broke out under Kitna. They also went 177/2450 in 2006. Maybe Palmer isn't that good and it's all Housh and Johnson. I don't know.Brunell/Smith/McCardell combined for @ 190/2400 for about 3 or 4 years. Smith was a 2nd rounder and McCardell was a 12th rounder.Brady/Moss/Welker combined for 210/2668 in 2007. Moss is a 1st rounder and Welker wasn't drafted IIRC. Welker is 5'9" too.Mitchell/Moore/Perriman. Both WR's were both 1st rounders.Manning/Harrison/Wayne are all 1st rounders.Min QB/Moss/Carter. Moss is a 1st and Carter was a 4th.Min QB/Carter/Reed. Reed was a 3rd rounder.SF QB/Rice/Owens. Rice was a 1st rounder, Owens is a 3rd rounder.

 

[obxlegends]

Ray Lewis

Ray Lewis has been overrated for years.

You obviously don't know football. You may not like him. He may be brash, but don't confuse that with being overrated.

Just because I disagree with you I don't know football. Ray Lewis was a terrific LB in his prime but that was years ago. He is still good but isn't anywhere close to being the best LB in football which is what the announcers would have you believe.

I have Ray Lewis in my avatar, but I don't think I look at him with purple colored glasses on. Ray Lewis is phenominal, but not what he once was. A couple of years ago he has a slide, but I believe he's improved him game the last 2 seasons. Something you don't often see in your 30's. Overrated? Not even close.

 

[Irish]

How exactly does where a player was drafted determine if he was a good player?

It doesn't. But I think the point he was making is that Marino's WRs weren't superstars until they landed in Miami and had Marino throwing to them.I understand that Young doesn't have great WRs to throw to but I hope no one here is suggesting that Young is as good a passer as Marino right? If so please put the bong down...

Exactly.People say Marino is over-rated because he had Clayton and Duper or that if so-and-so had his receivers they'd have put up his kinda numbers. While it's curious that they all three came into the league at roughly the same time, Clayton was an 8th rounder. An 8th rounder!!!!!! I'm not talking about 1st vs. 2nd round or even 1st vs. 4th or 5th. The 8th round!!!!!If Flacco and Justin Harper hooked up for 1300 yards in 2009, that's like saying Harper is the reason.The 2008 "who?" list I posted were WR's taken in similar spots to Clayton. Yet Clayton went off in his second year ('84) after catching 6/114 in his rookie year. And 5'9" was short even back in the 80's. Both Duper and Clayton were tiny. Wes Welker is Mark Clayton. Anyone want to opine that Brady wouldn't be that good if it weren't for Welker?In 1993 at age 32 Clayton signed with GB to catch 32/331 from Favre and then retired. In 1994 at age 32 Irving Fryar caught 73/1270 from Marino.Clayton and Duper are 41st and 47th respectively in career yards with 11 seasons each. Joey Galloway is 23rd after 13 seasons and Keyshawn Johnson is 24th with 11 years. Muhsin Muhammad is 30th after 12 seasons. Derrick Mason is 39th after 11 seasons. Amani Toomer is 45th after 12 seasons. Terry Glenn is 48th after 12 seasons. Rod Smith is 19th with 12 seasons. Bruce and Holt are 3rd and 17th respectively after 14 and 9 years respectively. Rice and Owens are 1st and 10th. Yet Clayon and Duper made Marino.BTW, some other interesting tandem QB/WR/WR combos to look at...Chandler/Martin/Mathis in 1998 combined for 130/2317. Martin was a 5th rounder and Mathis was a 6th rounder. Chandler passed for 3154 that season.Palmer/Johnson/Housh in 2007 combined for 205/2573. Johnson is a 2nd rounder and Housh is a 7th rounder. That's pretty close to Duper and Clayton but Johnson broke out under Kitna. They also went 177/2450 in 2006. Maybe Palmer isn't that good and it's all Housh and Johnson. I don't know.Brunell/Smith/McCardell combined for @ 190/2400 for about 3 or 4 years. Smith was a 2nd rounder and McCardell was a 12th rounder.Brady/Moss/Welker combined for 210/2668 in 2007. Moss is a 1st rounder and Welker wasn't drafted IIRC. Welker is 5'9" too.Mitchell/Moore/Perriman. Both WR's were both 1st rounders.Manning/Harrison/Wayne are all 1st rounders.Min QB/Moss/Carter. Moss is a 1st and Carter was a 4th.Min QB/Carter/Reed. Reed was a 3rd rounder.SF QB/Rice/Owens. Rice was a 1st rounder, Owens is a 3rd rounder.

Who cares what round players are drafted in. Talent and opportunity is what counts.

 

[JamesTheScot]

How exactly does where a player was drafted determine if he was a good player?

It doesn't. But I think the point he was making is that Marino's WRs weren't superstars until they landed in Miami and had Marino throwing to them.I understand that Young doesn't have great WRs to throw to but I hope no one here is suggesting that Young is as good a passer as Marino right? If so please put the bong down...

Duper played his entire career in Miami and Clayton played in Miami except for his last season in GB. They were both 1,000 yard wr by their 2nd season. They were excellent wr from the get go.

How many second year WR's go for 1300+ yards? How often do 2 young (year 2 and 3) WR's gain over 1300+ yards in the same season? Yet these two receivers go on to average 3.7/56.7 per game (Clayton) and 3.5/60.7 per game (Duper) over their careers and rank in the 40's for career yardage (much worse in receptions). Those aren't great per game career numbers...and neither one of those guys had a slow start or a long slide into retirement.That's your WR1+WR2 combining to catch 8 balls for 118 yards per game!

The QB throwing to them goes on to break most every career and season passing record in the league.

Yet the QB is the one over-rated? It's a non-sequiter.

Here's what they combined for in each year from '83 through '92...

1983- 57/1117

1984- 144/2695 (both went over 1000 yards)

1985- 105/1646 (neither went over 1000 yards)

1986- 127/2463 (both went over 1000 yards)

1987- 79/1373 (neither went over 1000 yards)

1988- 125/1755

1989- 113/1728

1990- 84/1216 (neither went over 1000 yards)

1991- 140/2138 (both went over 1000 yards)

1992- 87/1381 (neither went over 1000 yards)

Those are decent WR1+WR2 numbers each season but not unheard of. Neither one of these guys caught more than 86 balls in a season.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Who cares what round players are drafted in. Talent and opportunity is what counts.

Right. But draft position is an indicator of perceived talent. You think it's a coincidence that so many highly drafted WR's sit atop the career leader boards?

 

[Irish]

Who cares what round players are drafted in. Talent and opportunity is what counts.

Right. But draft position is an indicator of perceived talent. You think it's a coincidence that so many highly drafted WR's sit atop the career leader boards?

Tell that to the Chicago Bears, they took David Terrell at pick 8.

 

[massraider]

Who cares what round players are drafted in. Talent and opportunity is what counts.

Right. But draft position is an indicator of perceived talent. You think it's a coincidence that so many highly drafted WR's sit atop the career leader boards?

Tell that to the Chicago Bears, they took David Terrell at pick 8.

Marino made average WRs great.Young has yet to do that. in fact, short of winning a title in college, he hasn't done anything that Marino has done.

 

[Irish]

Who cares what round players are drafted in. Talent and opportunity is what counts.

Right. But draft position is an indicator of perceived talent. You think it's a coincidence that so many highly drafted WR's sit atop the career leader boards?

Tell that to the Chicago Bears, they took David Terrell at pick 8.

Marino made average WRs great.Young has yet to do that. in fact, short of winning a title in college, he hasn't done anything that Marino has done.

Wow Duper and Clayton just average huh? I strongly disagree. I find it amusing that you want to compare Young's career to Marino's after only 2 seasons in the league. Isn't football about winning titles yet you disregard that Young led his team to a National Title. I understand, Marino probably was on your FF team and scored you a lot of points.

 

[Godsbrother]

I have Ray Lewis in my avatar, but I don't think I look at him with purple colored glasses on. Ray Lewis is phenominal, but not what he once was. A couple of years ago he has a slide, but I believe he's improved him game the last 2 seasons. Something you don't often see in your 30's. Overrated? Not even close.

You are obviously a big Ray Lewis fan and that is fine. I think that Ray Lewis hasn't been the same for at least 4 or 5 years and he gets credit for way too many tackles by falling on the pile after the play is over.I watch a lot of Ravens games but probably not as much as you and if you think he is the best LB in football more power to you. This whole "overrated, underrated" business is all opinion and if we disagree then so be it.Just to show you that I am not alone in my thoughts about Lewis being overrated just go to google and type in "Ray Lewis Overrated". You will see lots of people saying the same thing. It doesn't mean I am right but it does show that there are others that believe he is overrated as well.

 

[Godsbrother]

Who cares what round players are drafted in. Talent and opportunity is what counts.

Right. But draft position is an indicator of perceived talent. You think it's a coincidence that so many highly drafted WR's sit atop the career leader boards?

Tell that to the Chicago Bears, they took David Terrell at pick 8.

Marino made average WRs great.Young has yet to do that. in fact, short of winning a title in college, he hasn't done anything that Marino has done.

Wow Duper and Clayton just average huh? I strongly disagree. I find it amusing that you want to compare Young's career to Marino's after only 2 seasons in the league. Isn't football about winning titles yet you disregard that Young led his team to a National Title. I understand, Marino probably was on your FF team and scored you a lot of points.

Saying that Duper and Clayton were average is as dumb as saying that Vince Young is as good a passer as Dan Marino. The point he was making is that Duper and Clayton were not considered top receivers coming out of college just as Vince Young's receivers aren't considered anything special now.

Did Marino make Clayton & Duper great or vice verse? Probably both are true. The one thing that is clear is that so far VY and his receivers are not making either look very good.

 

[sfl49er]

Who cares what round players are drafted in. Talent and opportunity is what counts.

Right. But draft position is an indicator of perceived talent. You think it's a coincidence that so many highly drafted WR's sit atop the career leader boards?

Tell that to the Chicago Bears, they took David Terrell at pick 8.

Marino made average WRs great.Young has yet to do that. in fact, short of winning a title in college, he hasn't done anything that Marino has done.

Wow Duper and Clayton just average huh? I strongly disagree. I find it amusing that you want to compare Young's career to Marino's after only 2 seasons in the league. Isn't football about winning titles yet you disregard that Young led his team to a National Title. I understand, Marino probably was on your FF team and scored you a lot of points.

With his legs... He is the next Randall Cunningham without the arm strength. The best quality of Young is that he has such a great Will to win no matter what it takes. I dont think he has the best instincts of an elite passing quarterback but he does find ways to win. Here is a question: Give him Lee Evans (who can catch the deep ball) and Reggie Bush who can compliment the passing game with 70-80 yards receiving a game... and does Vince pass for THREE HUNDRED yards a game? I dont think he does, but he should.

 

[billymays]

deangelo hall should be mentioned here

 

[JamesTheScot]

Wow Duper and Clayton just average huh? I strongly disagree. I find it amusing that you want to compare Young's career to Marino's after only 2 seasons in the league. Isn't football about winning titles yet you disregard that Young led his team to a National Title. I understand, Marino probably was on your FF team and scored you a lot of points.

Not really. I'm comparing Marino year 2 ('84) to Young year 2 ('07). Marino won 14 games, set single season passing records and made it to a superbowl. He had two very young receivers each catch 1300+ yards. Young also had a better running game (5th ranked compared to 16th for Dan) and a better defense (ranked 10th/5th vs. the pass/rush compared to 14th/22nd for Dan) at his back. Do you realize that Clayton caught 6 balls in '83 as a rookie! Duper didn't catch a ball in his rookie season ('82). Yes, Duper went for 52/1003 in '83 and was a 2nd round pick in '82 so he may have been considered a decent "talent" at the time. I don't have the game logs so I don't know how many of his 52 catches in '83 were under Marino, Woodley or Strock but I'm guessing that after not catching a ball as a rookie in '82 that Marino's 7 starts in '83 contributed mightily to his 1000 yard season.

I am not saying Duper/Clayton were trash. Nor am I saying Vince Young is trash. I'm just saying don't tell me Young would be winning Super Bowls if he had Marino's WR's or that Marino is over-rated and was made by his WR's.

I've posted the combined season numbers for Clayton and Duper. There are a lot of sub-1000 yards seasons there for each of them. In fact, there are more seasons where they neither went for 1000 yards than there are where they both went for 1000 yards. They aren't even really on the radar in terms of career production. There are plenty of receiving tandems who have posted double 1000 yard seasons and not all of them are headed to Canton. I think Marino probably benefited from having a stable receiving corp for 10 years...but that's not the same as him having a talented receving corp.

 

[u999spf]

Overrated Offense = Vince Young, Frank Gore

Overrated Defense = DeAngelo Hall

Roy Williams, Dallas Safety, has been one of the all time overrated players but I think people are finally starting to catch on how bad he really has been. He has been exposed and would have missed the probowl last season, except that Sean Taylor died. (Who I also think was a bit overrated)

 

[Garts]

Overrated Offense = Vince Young, Frank GoreOverrated Defense = DeAngelo HallRoy Williams, Dallas Safety, has been one of the all time overrated players but I think people are finally starting to catch on how bad he really has been. He has been exposed and would have missed the probowl last season, except that Sean Taylor died. (Who I also think was a bit overrated)

Frank Gore? He has NO help on offence.

 

[dparker713]

Wow Duper and Clayton just average huh? I strongly disagree. I find it amusing that you want to compare Young's career to Marino's after only 2 seasons in the league. Isn't football about winning titles yet you disregard that Young led his team to a National Title. I understand, Marino probably was on your FF team and scored you a lot of points.

Not really. I'm comparing Marino year 2 ('84) to Young year 2 ('07). Marino won 14 games, set single season passing records and made it to a superbowl. He had two very young receivers each catch 1300+ yards. Young also had a better running game (5th ranked compared to 16th for Dan) and a better defense (ranked 10th/5th vs. the pass/rush compared to 14th/22nd for Dan) at his back. Do you realize that Clayton caught 6 balls in '83 as a rookie! Duper didn't catch a ball in his rookie season ('82). Yes, Duper went for 52/1003 in '83 and was a 2nd round pick in '82 so he may have been considered a decent "talent" at the time. I don't have the game logs so I don't know how many of his 52 catches in '83 were under Marino, Woodley or Strock but I'm guessing that after not catching a ball as a rookie in '82 that Marino's 7 starts in '83 contributed mightily to his 1000 yard season.

I am not saying Duper/Clayton were trash. Nor am I saying Vince Young is trash. I'm just saying don't tell me Young would be winning Super Bowls if he had Marino's WR's or that Marino is over-rated and was made by his WR's.

I've posted the combined season numbers for Clayton and Duper. There are a lot of sub-1000 yards seasons there for each of them. In fact, there are more seasons where they neither went for 1000 yards than there are where they both went for 1000 yards. They aren't even really on the radar in terms of career production. There are plenty of receiving tandems who have posted double 1000 yard seasons and not all of them are headed to Canton. I think Marino probably benefited from having a stable receiving corp for 10 years...but that's not the same as him having a talented receving corp.

I fail to see how Marino is an apt comparison. They play entirely different games. Elway, Steve Young, Vick, Cunningham, Tarkington, etc. Those are the players Young more closely resembles. And please stop focusing on draft position. Its entirely specious reasoning that draft position equates to talent, especially in the pre salary cap era when team talent was so incredibly imbalanced.

 

[JamesTheScot]

I fail to see how Marino is an apt comparison. They play entirely different games. Elway, Steve Young, Vick, Cunningham, Tarkington, etc. Those are the players Young more closely resembles. And please stop focusing on draft position. Its entirely specious reasoning that draft position equates to talent, especially in the pre salary cap era when team talent was so incredibly imbalanced.

I agree that Marino and Young have different styles of games. But I wasn't the one who invoked the comparison. And the stat of "wins" was invoked as well which is any QB's game. I would further say that an NFL QB will or won't succeed based upon his ability to pass with his running ability only supplementing that skill. Marino proved he could do that from year 2. We're still waiting to see whether or not Young can do that. My point has only been that you can't point to Marino's WR's to say he had an advantage based on hindsight while excusing Young because of his WR's without the benefit of hindsight. To do so is comparing apples to oranges.As for draft position. I don't see how the era affects the ranking of incoming collegiate talent. Different eras may place different priorities on the combine measurables, but draft position has, does and always will equate to perceived talent, I don't think that's even debatable.

Sure, there is no guarantee your 2nd round WR will blossom into a solid NFL WR. But the odds are incredibly higher that your 8th round WR pick won't ever blossom. We don't have stats for Duper or Clayton with other teams to draw a comparison. Nor do we for Williams and Jones. What we can say though is that at least one team had Jones pegged as a 3rd round talent and Williams as a 4th. No team had Mark Clayton pegged for even a 7th round talent.

Drafting a guy at 1.20 instead of 2.01 may not mean a whole lot as far as perceived talent goes. But when a guy gets drafted in the 8th round...I think its safe to say the 28 teams that passed on him for 7 rounds (including his own) didn't think too highly of him. Do all teams get it wrong sometimes? Yes. But the odds are infinitesimally smaller that every team gets is wrong for 7 rounds than that they all get it wrong for 2-3 rounds.

As I said, go look at the career leaders in WR stats and count up how many came from rounds 1, 2, 3 as compared to later rounds and then tell me there isn't a correlation between draft position and talent. I don't know that the same parallel holds true for other positions, but it stands out in WR's.

 

[dparker713]

I fail to see how Marino is an apt comparison. They play entirely different games. Elway, Steve Young, Vick, Cunningham, Tarkington, etc. Those are the players Young more closely resembles. And please stop focusing on draft position. Its entirely specious reasoning that draft position equates to talent, especially in the pre salary cap era when team talent was so incredibly imbalanced.

I agree that Marino and Young have different styles of games. But I wasn't the one who invoked the comparison. And the stat of "wins" was invoked as well which is any QB's game. I would further say that an NFL QB will or won't succeed based upon his ability to pass with his running ability only supplementing that skill. Marino proved he could do that from year 2. We're still waiting to see whether or not Young can do that. My point has only been that you can't point to Marino's WR's to say he had an advantage based on hindsight while excusing Young because of his WR's without the benefit of hindsight. To do so is comparing apples to oranges.As for draft position. I don't see how the era affects the ranking of incoming collegiate talent. Different eras may place different priorities on the combine measurables, but draft position has, does and always will equate to perceived talent, I don't think that's even debatable.

Sure, there is no guarantee your 2nd round WR will blossom into a solid NFL WR. But the odds are incredibly higher that your 8th round WR pick won't ever blossom. We don't have stats for Duper or Clayton with other teams to draw a comparison. Nor do we for Williams and Jones. What we can say though is that at least one team had Jones pegged as a 3rd round talent and Williams as a 4th. No team had Mark Clayton pegged for even a 7th round talent.

Drafting a guy at 1.20 instead of 2.01 may not mean a whole lot as far as perceived talent goes. But when a guy gets drafted in the 8th round...I think its safe to say the 28 teams that passed on him for 7 rounds (including his own) didn't think too highly of him. Do all teams get it wrong sometimes? Yes. But the odds are infinitesimally smaller that every team gets is wrong for 7 rounds than that they all get it wrong for 2-3 rounds.

As I said, go look at the career leaders in WR stats and count up how many came from rounds 1, 2, 3 as compared to later rounds and then tell me there isn't a correlation between draft position and talent. I don't know that the same parallel holds true for other positions, but it stands out in WR's.

Through this point in their careers, hindsight has shown the receivers in Tennesse are lacking. They may be able to change this perception, but to project them as anything other than busts is pure speculation not borne out by anything displayed on the field thus far. Comparatively, Clayton and Duper had already shown the ability to play at a high level.As for when a draft occurs mattering, there is a reason several teams in the pre cap era were horrid and unable to field a good team. Their scouting was atrocious as were their talent evalutors. Its alot easier to get a stacked team when drafting against people that dont exactly know what they're doing. Its like drafting in a Yahoo free league, it nearly impossible to not get a stacked team when people are drafting team defenses in round one. Same thing was true in the NFL. Talent fell farther because certain teams would routinely make bad picks. Beyond that, even the good scouting departments of yesteryear we're as good as the average department of today. There is so much more money and focus on evaluating the draft now then there was in the past.

 

[sfl49er]

Overrated Offense = Vince Young, Frank GoreOverrated Defense = DeAngelo HallRoy Williams, Dallas Safety, has been one of the all time overrated players but I think people are finally starting to catch on how bad he really has been. He has been exposed and would have missed the probowl last season, except that Sean Taylor died. (Who I also think was a bit overrated)

Frank Gore? He has NO help on offence.

Thats true; I agree with you for last years conclusion but Frank will put an end to all the Critic's talk this year

 

[FunkyPlutos]

Brian Urlacher - he is good, but isn't nearly as good as he used to be, and everyone seems to think he is still at an elite level.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Is Shawn Merriman still rated highly after his unimpressive drug-free year? If so, I vote for him.

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

As I go back to page 1, I see someone mentioned Darren Sharper. Who isn't that good, but did anyone ever consider him elite? He's one of those guys who makes Pro Bowls because he's a playmaker, but he was never great.

 

[Thorpe]

Nate Clements - good corner, but for 80 mil you better be elite.

Lee Evans - He can catch the deep ball, but doesn't seem able to run any other routes.

 

[Big_Russel]

good insight here.

I kinda think Randy Moss is overrated. Call me crazy but the only reason Moss had 23 TDS last year is because of spygate. I also think Peyton Manning is overrated... By the way who is better Manning or Brady???

Eli according to his SuperBowl win over Brady.

Remember though? how the expert thought he was garbage?look what he did! Tom Brady was 3-0 in Super Bowls before losing to a manning. I thought this match, unlike what the point spread thought, was going to be extremely close. the giants win it on a heroic joe montana style drive by eli manning, who is in his mid 20's

WTF?? Euro-Fan??

 

[Truman]

deangelo hall should be mentioned here

He's on every one of these lists, just had his best year as a pro and didn't make the pro bowl.If anything he's underrated.

 

[Wu-banger]

Hmmm...... not sure.

The answer a couple years ago was Shaun Alexander .... but that's more than obvious now.

I'll go out on a limb and piss people off and say -

Marvin Harrison

he is definetly the benefactor of Manning more than vice-versa.

he does little after the catch and the way he just falls down is borderline pathetic.....

and the way he portrayed in the media as opposed to more bostrious WR's is horrible.... they make him seem like a great guy , but after meeting him a couple (once for a few hours) he is a grade one a- hole

I've heard he is a total #####, yet he's always portrayed as a quiet, nice guy.Overrated

Offense: Vince Young/Vincent Jackson

Defense: Roy Williams

Not at all. Marvin's a real cool guy.

Experiance that point this out ..??tell that to the waitress he cursed out at our table because he did not have a spoon for his ice cream ..... and then continued to curse her out even more when she poointed out it was in his folded napkin with the other utensils.

I have a hard time believing this happened..

My cousin and he are friends from high school. I don't know him nearly as well as my cousin, but I've gotten the opportunity to hang out with him a few times when he's in the area. Always a very nice guy. I'm by no means close with Marvin, but my cousin, who knows him much better than me, has never told me of anything like what you said. Seems he has always been a very nice, polite guy.

***cough...cough..***I seen the antics first hand ... and with the latest news u should start to believe me....

 

[massraider]

Who cares what round players are drafted in. Talent and opportunity is what counts.

Right. But draft position is an indicator of perceived talent. You think it's a coincidence that so many highly drafted WR's sit atop the career leader boards?

Tell that to the Chicago Bears, they took David Terrell at pick 8.

Marino made average WRs great.Young has yet to do that. in fact, short of winning a title in college, he hasn't done anything that Marino has done.

Wow Duper and Clayton just average huh? I strongly disagree. I find it amusing that you want to compare Young's career to Marino's after only 2 seasons in the league. Isn't football about winning titles yet you disregard that Young led his team to a National Title. I understand, Marino probably was on your FF team and scored you a lot of points.

I didn't say Duper and Clayton. I said he made average receivers great. Check out the seasons of the stiffs that followed Duper and Clayton. Guys had good years, then disappeared. Check out 1994. Clayton, gone. Duper, gone. Marino? 4453 passing yards, with 30 TDs. Throwing to stiffs like Irving Fryar, Mark Ingram, and OJ McDuffie. 4,000 yards throwing to those guys!I agree it's silly to compare these two players. I thought it was so silly, I had to go back, and see which joker first made this comparison:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...t&p=8571175

 

[a_troll00]

Overrated: Phillip Rivers

I think you had a very good case before the playoffs. During the Charger's playoff run, something just seemed to click in Rivers. He finally learned how to find his wide receivers and his play looked explosive. Heck, Vincent Jackson is starting to look like a threat now.Phillip Rivers could be a very good fantasy QB this upcoming season. It just depends on how much the Charger's reliance on LT will limit his passing attempts.

 

[sfl49er]

Is Shawn Merriman still rated highly after his unimpressive drug-free year? If so, I vote for him.

Wow I forgot about that with all the cheating going around in New England. He's such a fake. You are so right; Ding, ding, ding! Merriman is our winner, then Young, A. Peterson, and last, Derek Anderson.

 

[softball]

Champ Bailey: He's good as long as the rest of the D is. If not, he's been burned time and again like a FA off the street.

 

[houndirish]

Too bad we're not having this conversation two years ago. Mike Alstott and Lavar Arrington would've been hands down winners.

I agree Ray Ray is overrated. He's not nearly the player he once was yet someone's always sticking a microphone in his face and proclaiming him among the league's best defenders. Sorry, not buying it.

Has Jevon Kearse been mentioned yet?

 

[TheLastDispatch]

Hmmm...... not sure.

The answer a couple years ago was Shaun Alexander .... but that's more than obvious now.

I'll go out on a limb and piss people off and say -

Marvin Harrison

he is definetly the benefactor of Manning more than vice-versa.

he does little after the catch and the way he just falls down is borderline pathetic.....

and the way he portrayed in the media as opposed to more bostrious WR's is horrible.... they make him seem like a great guy , but after meeting him a couple (once for a few hours) he is a grade one a- hole

I've heard he is a total #####, yet he's always portrayed as a quiet, nice guy.Overrated

Offense: Vince Young/Vincent Jackson

Defense: Roy Williams

Not at all. Marvin's a real cool guy.

Experiance that point this out ..??tell that to the waitress he cursed out at our table because he did not have a spoon for his ice cream ..... and then continued to curse her out even more when she poointed out it was in his folded napkin with the other utensils.

I have a hard time believing this happened..

My cousin and he are friends from high school. I don't know him nearly as well as my cousin, but I've gotten the opportunity to hang out with him a few times when he's in the area. Always a very nice guy. I'm by no means close with Marvin, but my cousin, who knows him much better than me, has never told me of anything like what you said. Seems he has always been a very nice, polite guy.

***cough...cough..***I seen the antics first hand ... and with the latest news u should start to believe me....

Innocent till proven guilty.Like I said, I don't know him that well. But from my several experiences around him, he's always been a very nice and polite guy.

 

[Buckna]

I would have said Vince, but his hype seems to have come down considerably. People were lining up to have his unborn children last year and the year before. There are still a few people like that out there though.

 

[KingAlfred]

Al Harris, CB, Pack

 

[craxie]

Eli Manning

there was a sea-change in opinion about him b/c of the SB

it isn't justified