Moving The People In The MIddle? Can They Move? Should We Try? (1 Viewer)

[roadkill1292]

If you accept that a sizeable number of people voted for Obama and Trump, it’s hard to understand the argument that the middle cannot be moved. 

But what's not clear is what the middle wants in general. Does it want a a Republican -like country where the "free market" is assumed to be the solution for all our issues? Or does it value government help in solving the very real problems that Average Joe faces? I'm not a Middle and I really don't have a good feel for what it really wants.

 

[ShamrockPride]

Has to be something more to your plight.  I have received no "wrath" from anyone and I've voted third party almost exclusively in my voting career.  Of course, I outwardly condemn and don't even attempt to justify the crappy acts of politicians or try to create false equivalence narratives in an effort to deflect from the problem.  I tend to keep the focus on the problem. 

Oh, I'm not saying I've received any animosity in my real life. I was just stating what I've seen plenty of times here in this forum. It was said countless times here in the build up to and following the election.

 

[KCitons]

Yup, remember all the "A vote for 3rd party/not voting is a vote for Trump" nonsense? Was good shtick.

Has to be something more to your plight.  I have received no "wrath" from anyone and I've voted third party almost exclusively in my voting career.  Of course, I outwardly condemn and don't even attempt to justify the crappy acts of politicians or try to create false equivalence narratives in an effort to deflect from the problem.  I tend to keep the focus on the problem. 

Oh, I'm not saying I've received any animosity in my real life. I was just stating what I've seen plenty of times here in this forum. It was said countless times here in the build up to and following the election.

He's really just using this to take a jab at me personally. Not just about who I voted for, but other posts that have zero to do with my candidate of choice or this thread. (see bolded). It's a subtle way to troll the other side.They do it quite frequently. It just reminds me that I'm living rent free in their heads. 

As you mentioned in your original post, a third party vote was deemed as a waste of a vote, or a vote for Trump. Looking ahead, I probably won't be voting Democrat or Trump in the 2020 election. For the same reason I didn't vote Hilary or Trump in the last one. I don't think either party is representing the people of this country the way they should. My vote is a vote for more options. Not just today, but in the future. The reality is, the people complaining that a vote for Gary Johnson was a wasted vote, are doing the exact same thing that Nancy Pelosi is doing. They are trading self preservation for what is right. 

 

[The Commish]

Oh, I'm not saying I've received any animosity in my real life. I was just stating what I've seen plenty of times here in this forum. It was said countless times here in the build up to and following the election.

Not sure I am following you then.  The initial comment by Ranethe was the following:

I’d assume that it’s pretty rare that people “in the middle” are being called racist or labeled as “evil”. Not sure why that was even thrown in there. 

Those labels are appropriately reserved for those who are, you know, racist and evil, and likely relatively few of these people reside “in the middle”. Now, that labeled segment of the population is frighteningly larger than anyone anticipated but they aren’t “moving” regardless of what you do or do not call them. 

People seem to have trouble understanding that there really are nasty, terrible human beings out there (though I’ll admit to personally having trouble understanding just how many there are).

To which I replied this....

I see way too much of this general obtuseness...it has to be on purpose just to argue or ignore the legit point being made.  Someone will say "for those Republicans who willingly vote for a racist and support racist comments from X, chances are you're racist" and then random Republican guy says, "don't call us all racist"   Well, I didn't.  I was very specific.  If those traits don't apply to you, I'm not talking about you.  This isn't complicated.  Goes the other way too.  Right now the GOP is in charge so I see it more from them, plus they have feel the duty to defend the party with Trump at the head.  That's a heavy lift.

This is ultimately about self awareness IMO.  Understanding when a person makes a comment about a specific individual or set of individuals and NOT trying to make it more than that and conveying a "generality" to it.  My suggestion is, if you don't meet the specific criteria, then you aren't the one being talked to or about.  The comment I made to you specifically is one to suggest that if you are being lumped in with a group then you either A.)  Share many other characteristics other than the specific one being talked about at the time or B.) are ineffective at communicating your position and your posts when taken in their totality point more towards that support than away from it.  It's not simply who you voted for or didn't vote for.  That's pretty superficial.

ETA:  And to be clear, I pushed back pretty strenuously on the notion of "voting third party is helping trump"....that's crap.  I had many back and forths and many arguments about it.  NONE of them raised to the level of labeling it "wrath".  The persecution complexes are weird around here.

 

[GROOT]

People are moving from the middle...coming from the left side.

 

[The Commish]

People are moving from the middle...coming from the left side.

I think this is probably true.  The other factor in this is the middle is growing as the GOP sprints to the right with reckless abandon leaving a lot of us where we were.  I guess that's not technically "moving the middle" but there's a large number who feel this way, myself included.

 

[NCCommish]

And what is the middle? Is it the over 80% of people that support tougher gun laws? Is it the over 70 % that support Mericare for All? Is it the 60% that support taxing the richest people up to 70%? Is it the nearly 60% that support student loan forgiveness? Or is it the minority of voters that claim those things are just to radical for them? 

 

[TripItUp]

The country has been moving left as white Christians have lessened by percentage partially due to immigration rates.

 

[NCCommish]

The country has been moving left as white Christians have lessened by percentage partially due to immigration rates.

Really? I don't think so. I think it was always more left than the well paid to say so pundit class claims. The people seemed to like FDR and his policies a lot.

 

[TripItUp]

Really? 

Yes, really.

 

[dkp993]

He's really just using this to take a jab at me personally. Not just about who I voted for, but other posts that have zero to do with my candidate of choice or this thread. (see bolded). It's a subtle way to troll the other side.They do it quite frequently. It just reminds me that I'm living rent free in their heads. 

As you mentioned in your original post, a third party vote was deemed as a waste of a vote, or a vote for Trump. Looking ahead, I probably won't be voting Democrat or Trump in the 2020 election. For the same reason I didn't vote Hilary or Trump in the last one. I don't think either party is representing the people of this country the way they should. My vote is a vote for more options. Not just today, but in the future. The reality is, the people complaining that a vote for Gary Johnson was a wasted vote, are doing the exact same thing that Nancy Pelosi is doing. They are trading self preservation for what is right. 

I will likely be voting third-party and the reason is almost completely independent of who that current candidate is.  It’s to help the third party get the 15% needed to be included into the national Presidential debate.   Living in Cali it’s already a foregone inclusion what party my state will end up going for.  Might as well put my vote to the most use possible.  We MUST get a third-party voice in this country. 

 

[tommyGunZ]

I will likely be voting third-party and the reason is almost completely independent of who that current candidate is.  It’s to help the third party get the 15% needed to be included into the national Presidential debate.   Living in Cali it’s already a foregone inclusion what party my state will end up going for.  Might as well put my vote to the most use possible.  We MUST get a third-party voice in this country. 

Why?  

 

[Courtjester]

As far as listening: always. It’s always wise to listen to any honest person stating their concerns, full stop. Disregard the liars. But if you’re an honest person I will always listen to you no matter how extreme or wrong I think you might be. 

I’m sorry but I find this post to be disingenuous. 

Make up your mind....

 

[KCitons]

I will likely be voting third-party and the reason is almost completely independent of who that current candidate is.  It’s to help the third party get the 15% needed to be included into the national Presidential debate.   Living in Cali it’s already a foregone inclusion what party my state will end up going for.  Might as well put my vote to the most use possible.  We MUST get a third-party voice in this country. 

Living in Nebraska was the same. I also agreed with Johnson's stance on legalizing marijuana. (even though I don't smoke week).

Why?  

Why not?

 

[dkp993]

Why?  

Why the third party?  If so....  both current parties are appealing/pandering to the extremes and pulling further to the edges.  A centering 3rd party voice is important imo.   Large swaths of the country are tired of the partisan BS.  

 

[zoonation]

I agree with this part.

The answer to your question, I think, is that we generally can’t move the people in the middle. They have to move themselves. What we can do is get out of the way and let that happen instead of battering them into a defensive position that causes them to resist giving any ground.

(There are a few exceptions — people who are good at presenting arguments in a way that promotes understanding and consideration and even buy-in from people who don’t initially agree with their position. Scott from slatestarcodex.com is the most effective person I know at this. He’s changed my mind on a number of topics.)

But labeling other people evil etc. is pretty much never effective at changing their minds.

I’m not sure.  The “persuadables” were the focus of Cambridge Analytica, as set out in the new Netflix doc “the Great Hack”.   The underlying tone of the film is that CA got to these people, used their online data to target them, and likely influenced a lot of votes in key swing electoral college states   Same for Brexit.

I have no doubt you’re well read on CA though.   

 

[beef]

Yes, but I think the middle is >10%.  

 

[roadkill1292]

Why the third party?  If so....  both current parties are appealing/pandering to the extremes and pulling further to the edges.  A centering 3rd party voice is important imo.   Large swaths of the country are tired of the partisan BS.  

Consider supporting Rep. Don Beyer's (D-Va) Fair Representation Act, which creates multi-member "super" districts that are much more amenable to success for third party candidates.

 

[roadkill1292]

The country has been moving left as white Christians have lessened by percentage partially due to immigration rates.

I don't know if there's truly cause and effect in the validity of your assertion but the generations who will soon be the dominant force in the electorate are definitely more secular and less liable to be of European heritage. Polls show that Democratic voters are way more comfortable with those realities than their Republican counterparts are.

 

[dkp993]

Consider supporting Rep. Don Beyer's (D-Va) Fair Representation Act, which creates multi-member "super" districts that are much more amenable to success for third party candidates.

Thanks.   I’ll look into it.

 

[roadkill1292]

Thanks.   I’ll look into it.

More than a few political scientists believe that proportional representation not only allows for more individual choices but also serves as moderating constraints on the most radical portions of the electorate.

Forgot to add that Tim doesn't like it, though.

 

[dkp993]

More than a few political scientists believe that proportional representation not only allows for more individual choices but also serves as moderating constraints on the most radical portions of the electorate.

Makes sense to me