My Urban Garden (2 Viewers)

[TheFanatic]

Speaking of starting seed. I ate a tomato last Monday that had seed I wanted to save. I fermented it til Wednesday and instead of sterilizing and setting out to dry, I only had time to rinse away the gunk and decided to just leave the seed in clean water until I had time for it (in a plastic bag). On Friday I remembered it needed drying but it was too late. The seed had sprouted roots underwater. So not wanting to just throw it away (great tomato), I filled a half flat with potting soil, spread the seed around and covered the roots with seed starting formula. This morning the tomato I ate a week ago has produced over 40 healthy seedlings. I know some people like to soak seeds overnight, but this sprouting underwater method may deserve a little more testing.

Maybe I should try this with my German Reds? The 10 or so seeds I planted 3 weeks ago have not sprouted

It's getting very late for starting a big slow ripener. Very late. You can learn something by soaking a few and maybe get some started. When seed is saved you discard any seed that floats. Viable seed sinks. Bad seed is hollow, so once it escapes the gel it floats. Good seed is storing the energy that gets pumped into those first two false leaves (cotyledon). That's why there's no need for fertilizer until the first true leaves appear. The seed had enough energy to get that far on it's own. That energy had mass and makes good seed sink. Old seed may take a few hours to sink because it is very dry so don't give up immediately if it floats. It can't hurt to try if you really want to get one going. About a half cup of water and five drops of rooting hormone would be a good experiment for a couple three seeds. The hormone is cheap, helpful but unnecessary. Plain water is fine. Store it above the fridge or somewhere warm. But don't let it sprout roots like I did. All you want to see is the seed crack. Cracking means a little white stub appears on one end. If you see that it's good to go in the soil and will produce a plant. Get it out of the water asap. Mine had inch long roots dangling in the water. Those seedlings were stressed and struggling to take in nutrients (purple stems). I think oxygen deprivation from soaking too long caused this, but I remedied it with hydrogen peroxide (a hydroponic oxygenation trick I sent to the soil). They're greening up nicely and true leaves are showing on half of them.

I realize that it is getting late but I could still get a couple maters out of one and then harvest those seeds and not have to rely on seeds from 1995... Not doing it for eating purposes this year. Doing it to preserve the line. Gonna get some seeds in water tonight...

 

[siffoin]

Chaos Commish:

I have a stupid tomato question. Do I prune off the low branches of the plant...especially the ones so low they will not flower. Can I use scissors to do that...and is there anything I need to be concerned about in regards to the health of the plant if I do prune?

Good question. And a part two question to that, now that the plants are tall, healthy and flowering, how about a few tips not to screw up the fruit? I've been watering every other day when it doesn't rain and fertilizing once every two weeks or so.

DV, you can screw up the yield with too much nitrogen fertilizer and or too much water. Your fertilizer will have three numbers (the NPK). A balanced fertilizer (like 15-15-15) is good early in the season. Once they start blooming you want the middle number (P phosphorus) to be at least double the first number (N nitrogen). K should be equal too or higher than N. Miracle Gro has a 10-15-10 that's not great but decent because it also has calcium, which can be very important. So use that if you cannot find a good "bloom" fertilzer. A common mistake is growing a big lush nitrogen rich plant that barely sets fruit. Some grow leaves. I grow tomatoes. It's tough to advise because every soil and plant is a little different. But, in general, back off on the fertilizer once the blooms start. Your soil may be rich enough to get them through the fall. Heavily mulched tomatoes are happy watered once a week in my area. I will only use some foliar sprays from here in for fertilizing. I'm using SeaAgri, but fish emulsion, sea kelp, and some basic superbloom type stuff is fine. Seek calcium in the ingredients. BER = Blossom End Rot and it sucks. It comes from a lack of calcium. A good read on calcium, nitrogen and BER. Interesting that too much leaf surface can cause calcium deficiencies in the fruit of high calcium plants. Another plus for us pruners.

Catfacing is another ugly problem with ripening tomatoes and it comes from poor pollination. Probably the best/safest advice I can give sight unseen, that few are aware of, is that you should help pollinate the tomatoes. Tomatoes are self pollinating, sort of, and they can be helped with great results. Honey bees and normal insect pollinators do little for tomatoes. Bumble bees are the best because they get close to a flower and vibrate like mad causing the pollen to drop (and get stuck in their fuzz) and cover the stigma for thorough pollination. Nothing works better. Not everyone has busy bumble bees. But second best is vibrating the flowers yourself. You can use an electric dildo or toothbrush for great results. Whichever you're more comfortable with. Just hold it right up to every open flower every couple of days and you will have a bigger yield of better fruit. Seriously.

Siff, pruning isn't much of a debate for greenhouse growers and outdoor market farmers. They have various proven techniques that maximize their production based on their conditions. Pruning is a huge debate among very accomplished backyard gardeners. It depends on several factors. I advised Tipsey to prune because he needs some space. I like a giant productive unpruned plant sometimes too. I grow some dependable determinate plants that never get pruned. I prune because I plant high density gardens and like tons of variety in limited space. I have 18 plants in an 18x2 foot garden all pruned to two stems each winding up 36 strings. I don't need the dildo because I can strum the strings and the flowers vibrate. Anyway. It is always smart to prune the bottom leaves that touch the ground. There will be a shoot/branch just beneath your first set of blossoms. It will grow from the node at a leaf branch (petiole). That's the second most productive branch/stem on a tomato plant. Keep it along with the main stem. Prune everything below it. You will not harm the plant. Sharp scissors are fine. I use my thumb and pinch all the time. Now you have two branches (like mine) and can do what you please with the rest of the growth. All shoots (new stems/branches) grow from those nodes where the leaves extend from the stem. I pinch them off. You may prefer to let them grow. Pinching them off costs me fruit per plant. High density planting makes up for it. You'll get more production in the Earthboxes by keeping several of the "strong" shoots. There is one "strong" shoot and two weak ones for every set of blossoms (growing from the three leaf branches between blossom clusters). They will be obvious as your plants mature.

I don't want or need a lot of tomatoes. I want awesome tomatoes. This requires sacrifice. Every set of blossoms will be a cluster of set fruit. My SunGold has as much as 80 blooms on one truss/cluster. I could let them all grow, but I don't. The bottom of a truss is always small struggling slow to ripen fruit that I haven't no interest in nursing along while the good stuff gets too ripe. I snip those trusses down to about 20 tomatoes. Those 20 are awesome and plenty. On a plant like Better Boy or Pruden's Purple, five or six flowers will set a tomato on each cluster. I'll snip those down to two or three after examining the set. They will be great tomatoes, just a few less. But then I have 60 plants at my place so this idea may not work for everyone. I've just learned focusing the plants resources pays off nicely. If you hate this idea, fine, but do remove any funky looking or dwarfed fruit. Your costing yourself some production elsewhere on the plant.

Is this enough for now?

Thanks CC: I pruned them. Just used garden shears and took off all minor branches that were on/near the ground up to about 6"-1 ft off the ground. I have 5 plants and they all have 2-4 major stems. Basically I took the bush from 1970's porn and trimmed it to early '90's style...it looks cleaner and manicured but obviously left most of her untouched. On the PVC trellis I built I added netting. The plants seems better supported. I have lots of flowering buds...so I'm excited. Thanks.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Chaos Commish:

I have a stupid tomato question. Do I prune off the low branches of the plant...especially the ones so low they will not flower. Can I use scissors to do that...and is there anything I need to be concerned about in regards to the health of the plant if I do prune?

Good question. And a part two question to that, now that the plants are tall, healthy and flowering, how about a few tips not to screw up the fruit? I've been watering every other day when it doesn't rain and fertilizing once every two weeks or so.

DV, you can screw up the yield with too much nitrogen fertilizer and or too much water. Your fertilizer will have three numbers (the NPK). A balanced fertilizer (like 15-15-15) is good early in the season. Once they start blooming you want the middle number (P phosphorus) to be at least double the first number (N nitrogen). K should be equal too or higher than N. Miracle Gro has a 10-15-10 that's not great but decent because it also has calcium, which can be very important. So use that if you cannot find a good "bloom" fertilzer. A common mistake is growing a big lush nitrogen rich plant that barely sets fruit. Some grow leaves. I grow tomatoes. It's tough to advise because every soil and plant is a little different. But, in general, back off on the fertilizer once the blooms start. Your soil may be rich enough to get them through the fall. Heavily mulched tomatoes are happy watered once a week in my area. I will only use some foliar sprays from here in for fertilizing. I'm using SeaAgri, but fish emulsion, sea kelp, and some basic superbloom type stuff is fine. Seek calcium in the ingredients. BER = Blossom End Rot and it sucks. It comes from a lack of calcium. A good read on calcium, nitrogen and BER. Interesting that too much leaf surface can cause calcium deficiencies in the fruit of high calcium plants. Another plus for us pruners.

Catfacing is another ugly problem with ripening tomatoes and it comes from poor pollination. Probably the best/safest advice I can give sight unseen, that few are aware of, is that you should help pollinate the tomatoes. Tomatoes are self pollinating, sort of, and they can be helped with great results. Honey bees and normal insect pollinators do little for tomatoes. Bumble bees are the best because they get close to a flower and vibrate like mad causing the pollen to drop (and get stuck in their fuzz) and cover the stigma for thorough pollination. Nothing works better. Not everyone has busy bumble bees. But second best is vibrating the flowers yourself. You can use an electric dildo or toothbrush for great results. Whichever you're more comfortable with. Just hold it right up to every open flower every couple of days and you will have a bigger yield of better fruit. Seriously.

Is this enough for now?

Chaos Commish with some excellent posting, and a desperate cry for the touch of a good woman. Great advice here. I'm going to post some pictures in a second and the details of the fertilizer of been using. Unfortunately, with the amount of rain we are getting in NYC, I can't control the water too much more than I already am. But I was looking for an excuse to go to the sex shop for a dildo.

The fertilizer I've been using is a Miracle Gro organic 7-2-1, probably the totally wrong thing.Here are the three plants on the edge of the deck that gets sun most of the day, when and if the sun ever comes out.

This is a closer shot of the Beefsteak plant. As you can see, there are a lot of leaves down low. Should I trim them?

And finally I have two that I think are Early Girls.

The two plants that are flowering have a cluster of flowers or two on one stem and nothing happening on the others. Is that normal? I've got cages for all three that I need to put in soon or I won't be able to get them on.

 

[Chaos Commish]

The fertilizer I've been using is a Miracle Gro organic 7-2-1, probably the totally wrong thing.

Here are the three plants on the edge of the deck that gets sun most of the day, when and if the sun ever comes out.

This is a closer shot of the Beefsteak plant. As you can see, there are a lot of leaves down low. Should I trim them?

And finally I have two that I think are Early Girls.

The two plants that are flowering have a cluster of flowers or two on one stem and nothing happening on the others. Is that normal? I've got cages for all three that I need to put in soon or I won't be able to get them on.

Is that Miracle Gro's Organic Potting Soil? It looks like it so I'm going to guess it is. It's N is exactly double P and K. So you have been nitrogen rich for tomatoes. But these are both slow release ferts so no harm done. If they were mine, I would hit them with something called Monster Bloom (0-50-30) once and watch them get covered in flowers. But that's a synthetic fertilizer not considered "organic" (which to me is lame because it is "inorganic" as in totally harmless but that's another topic). Then I would stick with Rainbow Mix Bloom. Great stuff. Or Tiger Bloom. Almost as good. Those are both "organic approved" and either is excellent from here through harvest. And both should last the backyard gardener a few years.The plants look fine to me. Some stems just aren't as productive as others. Get the cages in. I would prune everything below the first branch on each plant and let nature take it's course with the growth, maybe nipping the weak suckers for about a month since you don't need extra foliage.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

The fertilizer I've been using is a Miracle Gro organic 7-2-1, probably the totally wrong thing.

Here are the three plants on the edge of the deck that gets sun most of the day, when and if the sun ever comes out.

This is a closer shot of the Beefsteak plant. As you can see, there are a lot of leaves down low. Should I trim them?

And finally I have two that I think are Early Girls.

The two plants that are flowering have a cluster of flowers or two on one stem and nothing happening on the others. Is that normal? I've got cages for all three that I need to put in soon or I won't be able to get them on.

Is that Miracle Gro's Organic Potting Soil? It looks like it so I'm going to guess it is. It's N is exactly double P and K. So you have been nitrogen rich for tomatoes. But these are both slow release ferts so no harm done. If they were mine, I would hit them with something called Monster Bloom (0-50-30) once and watch them get covered in flowers. But that's a synthetic fertilizer not considered "organic" (which to me is lame because it is "inorganic" as in totally harmless but that's another topic). Then I would stick with Rainbow Mix Bloom. Great stuff. Or Tiger Bloom. Almost as good. Those are both "organic approved" and either is excellent from here through harvest. And both should last the backyard gardener a few years.The plants look fine to me. Some stems just aren't as productive as others. Get the cages in. I would prune everything below the first branch on each plant and let nature take it's course with the growth, maybe nipping the weak suckers for about a month since you don't need extra foliage.

You know your soil CC. The cages are in and the plants are pruned> I'm going to look for the Rainbow bloom today. Thanks for the advice!

 

[TheFanatic]

So I threw the German Red seeds in some water last night. I think I threw in about 30 seeds to get maybe 4 to sink.

So, uh, now what? How long before I expect to see them "cracked?" And then do I just throw them in some potting soil with some fert?

I have plenty of seeds left. Probably twice as many as I dropped in the water so, if that ratio is good I would expect that I have another 8-10 possibly viable seeds...

 

[Chaos Commish]

So I threw the German Red seeds in some water last night. I think I threw in about 30 seeds to get maybe 4 to sink. So, uh, now what? How long before I expect to see them "cracked?" And then do I just throw them in some potting soil with some fert? I have plenty of seeds left. Probably twice as many as I dropped in the water so, if that ratio is good I would expect that I have another 8-10 possibly viable seeds...

Keep the water warm, 90 degrees max, 80 minimum. Top of the fridge usually works fine.Soak them for 24 hours max, 20 minimum. If one of the sinkers cracks, it will have a little white nub on one end. Baby that seed. It needs to go directly into seed starting formula. Use a 12 oz. dark colored plastic cup with several small holes in the bottom. You want it to drain freely (nearly as fast as it fills) but hold the soil. Fill the bottom 1/3rd with good sterile moistened potting soil that has fertilizer already mixed in (don't add your own). The Miracle Gro mentioned above is fine. There is better, but most is worse. If you add a tablespoon of perlite it is great for this job. I would not use Miracle Gro Moisture Control Soil. Whatever you use must be sterile. That's the important difference between potting soil and all the other soils at the nursury. Fill the second third of the cup with seed starting formula. Jiffy and Scott's are fine. You could make your own, but it would cost a lot more considering how little you need. Barely moisten it with a spray bottle using half strength chamomile tea (it's a gentle fungicide with useful minerals). Stir it around a little and barely moisten it again. Poke a pencil eraser sized hole in the middle. Drop in the cracked seed. Cover with dry formula. Gently press it down with a finger to seat the seed. Very lightly mist again. Cover cup with plastic wrap fastened with a rubber band. Slit wrap about an inch with razor. Place in well lit indoor location. When sprout appears remove plastic, and bury stem in 1/2 dry starting formula and 1/2 dry potting mix, so the two starter leaves are right at the surface (this prevents damping off). You know about planting them deep and burying the stem -- this is the same concept. You will fill the cup as the stem grows. When the stem reaches up another half inch, mist the old surface and bury it to the leaves with the dry mixture. Always keep the surface dry.If none of the seed cracks in 24 hours, put the sinkers inside a coffee filter. Spray it with the diluted chamomile tea. Fold it over the seed loosely and place in a zipped plastic bag that has some air in it but not blown up like a balloon. This is the same concept as soaking but allows the seed to get some oxygen. You can leave it like this for a week checking regularly for a sprout. The tea should prevent mold, but not indefinitely. Just for beans do a bunch of the floaters the same way in another bag. You may get lucky. Carefully score a few of them with a knife. Sometimes this helps life emerge. Nip a tiny piece off the end of a few with fingernail clippers. Same idea. A couple times a day hold it up to a light to see if anything is happening. If one sprouts get out the 12 ounce cup and get it going. This is a little ironic because you picked Mule Team as part of a cross. It was also an old mysterious seed that was difficult to start. Dr. Carolyn Male is somewhat famous in tomato circles for finding and introducing over a hundred heirlooms in the US. She literally wrote the book on the topic. She got Mule Team started when others failed. She's pretty accessible online. If all else fails to start German Red (after I send you the hybrid seed and some magic dust this winter), then I would send her some/most of the seed and tell her the story. She'll also know if it is a "new or missing" strain or something currently available (after she gets some fruit off of it). Eh, maybe look her up and send some now? GL

 

[Men-in-Cleats]

Found a book called "Fresh Food from Small Spaces" that looked like it had some great information on planting in containers as well as utilizing small spaces or containers for dwarf or semi-dwarf trees. It also contained a section on making your own self watering containers. It made one very similar to the earthtainers except that instead of using two rubbermaid containers it used one and then the guy cut down the lid instead of using an inner container. Would be even cheaper to make than the other one.

Currentl have two tomatoes going in my half barrel with a bunch of carrots in there as a companion plant (suggested by a friend based on an old book they'd been reading). Have five different pepper plants going as well as my herbs. Got my first tomato off my silvery fir tree and have a couple more on there. It would probably be a much bigger plant had I pinched of the flowers on it when I got it but let them mature instead.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

So over the last week or so, the plants have been collecting a lot of bugs and one of them has developed some bumps. That picture of the bugs is completely worthless but they are tiny reddish brown critters kind of diamond shaped. The bumps are on the early girl, and they are all over the main stem of the plant. Any danger from these? Any recommended action for either of these these things?

 

[Chaos Commish]

MiC, Carrots are an okay companion to tomatoes, but they seem to have different growing seasons, and there are better companions. Here's a partial list from a very solid organic ag company:

TOMATOES: Tomato allies are many: asparagus, basil, bean, carrots, celery, chive, cucumber, garlic, head lettuce, marigold, mint, nasturtium, onion, parsley, pepper, marigold, pot marigold and sow thistle. One drawback with tomatoes and carrots: tomato plants can stunt the growth of your carrots but the carrots will still be of good flavor. Basil repels flies and mosquitoes, improves growth and flavor. Bee balm, chives and mint improve health and flavor. Borage deters tomato worm, improves growth and flavor. Dill, until mature, improves growth and health, mature dill ####### tomato growth. Enemies: corn and tomato are attacked by the same worm. Kohlrabi stunts tomato growth. Keep potatoes and tomatoes apart as they both can get early and late blight contaminating each other. Keep cabbage and cauliflower away from them. Don't plant them under walnut trees as they will get walnut wilt: a disease of tomatoes growing underneath walnut trees.

Marigolds are a must in areas prone to nematodes. The have a natural chemical similar to an old banned synthetic chemical called Vapam (which I personally love and wish some of you could still use). The field type, low growing wild Marigolds are best. The kind you see in a package labeled wildflowers. The big fancy ones, not so much. Mexican Marigolds, African Marigolds, those do a good job on nematodes. They can even be used as early spring or late fall cover crops, chopped right into the soil while still green to enhance the nematicide. Nasturtium, parsley, basil, mint, onion and garlic all seem to have some degree of success keeping bad bugs away while attracting beneficials. Afaik, there's very little scientific support for this, but there does seem to be tons of evidence. Mint doesn't get along with a lot of plants so should be used alone, not in combo. I have a pepper garden loaded with mint and I'm impressed with the lack of bugs. Pepper mint. Heh. Basil, onions and garlic are my standard companions for tomatoes, they seem to be the best at discouraging aphids. Nasturtium and pepper plants provide another benefit. Some nasties that love tomatoes love them more. We grow big disposable bells near the entrances to greenhouses because they will generally take an infestation of white fly first. We bag the plants once they're loaded with white fly, take them outside, fumigate them and put them in the trash. Outside, nasturtium gets mites and leaf miners first. It's a good heads up. Another thing about both, during the tomato fruit maturation stage over-watering can cause cracking, under watering can cause BER and other problems. Peppers and nasturtiums have shallow roots and work as great soil moisture regulators. If I water my tomatoes consistently just after a pepper plant gets a little wilty, I end up with perfect maters.DV -- The bumps on Early Girl are adventitious roots trying to form. It's normal especially where there's moisture in the air. Since that plant is caged, don't prune it anymore and it will focus more on growth, flowers, and fruit than roots. I cannot make out the bugs in the picture. An organic spray with a combination of pyrethrin, neem or soap is the answer 99 times out of 100. I've used the Safer label successfully. I think WalMart and Home Depot both carry it. My market farmer buddy released thousands of green lacewing larvae in the 20 plot experiment and all I can say is goodbye aphids, goodbye mites and goodbye whitefly. I've seen ladybugs go to work in the greenhouses for years, but I've never seen anything like this. Gallons of Diazinon and Malathion wouldn't have devasted that insect population any more thoroughly. There's 500 - 600 plants out there, many being picked. The lacewings to treat them cost $100 and provided free labor (which alone would have been $100 with someone spraying). It's encouraging when an organic method does a better job safer and cheaper.

I'm 95% sure all the crosses took except Siff's. I had some help from an old pro, who thinks I'm crazy, and I learned a lot in the process. The oversimplified online techniques were insufficient, and we did several blooms, stripped and isolated plants and parts of plants, and did a bunch of weird things to increase the amount of pollen we collected. My hybrid project conservatively wasted 500 tomatoes. Oy. It was fun and the results next year should be a kick.

Siff Brandywine is the very last plant to start producing and it's just finicky. We have one small fruit set we believe may have crossed, and another more professionally treated cluster of flowers in waiting. I tasted my first fresh picked Sudduth Brandywine yesterday. Trying not to exaggerate, it is easily one of the best tomatoes I have ever tasted, maybe the best, but I hate doing bests.

Carmello is really productive, great eating too. Of all the plants I tried, they look like the winner for taking out to the desert for production purposes. I'm wishing I had crossed it several ways, and I probably will next year. If you're doing heirlooms, I don't think these will disappoint (it's really a de-hybridized French market mater). They're not great big tomatoes, but for bringing in baskets of "heirlooms", they are impressive slicer sized tomatoes. We've pulled 20 pounds of fruit off of one Carmello and it's just getting going good. I'm guessing it can be my first 100 pounder if the stories of it's long season cold set ability hold true. The toms are all plump baseball size, blemish and crack free, tangy sweet when bright reddish orange, moving to a luscious sweet juice explosion when deep red, and the % of grade #1s (suitable for fresh market) is ridiculously good. The plants have great built in disease resistance to boot. I got the seed from TomatoFest if you're taking notes.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

The commish is wise! Thanks for the advice.

 

[siffoin]

Chaos Commish:

So if I read you correctly what you are saying is: The odds of my Brandywine/Traveler cross pollinating is slim...but if successful it might just be the best tasting tomato...EVER! I got my fingers crossed. Work some magic.

So yesterday I harvested the first thing I have ever grown...from seed to the table. The Broccoli Raab. When I picked up the seed in March...I thought I was buying broccoli...I never even heard of raab. A month ago when it went into the earthbox it was a seedling about 2" high. In the past 2 weeks it really took off and yesterday I harvested one plant.

I couldn't find many recipes for raab...and what I had read was that it was popular in Italy. So I just improvised a dish...cut up the raab...blanched it...then cooked up some pancetta and garlic...added panko bread crumbs...then the raab with some cream...put it all in a baking dish topped with parmesan cheese and baked it for a few minutes. WOW!

Everything in the garden is doing very well. In the raised bed area the potato box is growing pretty fast...the plant grows at least 6" per week requiring a new slat and about 1/2 bag new soil. Onions, carrots and herbs all doing great...the tomatoes are growing but not like the ones in the earthbox (note I also have a brandywine that is the slowest of them all.) In the earthboxes the tomato plants are getting very big and every plant has fruit...I guess I'll replant some peppers where the raab was in the earthbox.

http://picasaweb.google.com/steelhedge/Garden#

 

[Men-in-Cleats]

Intensive Orchard Plantings

Anybody have experience with this sort of planting for fruit trees? I've read a couple of books that were talking about the methods on this website and how you get good yields and easy harvest for a family by doing this with 2-4 trees spaced at 18" apart. You could do different varieties of fruit or use different varieties of the same fruit that would ripen at different times in order to have a continuous supply of fresh fruit. I'd love to do something like this in my yard and get some fruit going.

 

[TheFanatic]

So I threw the German Red seeds in some water last night. I think I threw in about 30 seeds to get maybe 4 to sink. So, uh, now what? How long before I expect to see them "cracked?" And then do I just throw them in some potting soil with some fert? I have plenty of seeds left. Probably twice as many as I dropped in the water so, if that ratio is good I would expect that I have another 8-10 possibly viable seeds...

Keep the water warm, 90 degrees max, 80 minimum. Top of the fridge usually works fine.Soak them for 24 hours max, 20 minimum. If one of the sinkers cracks, it will have a little white nub on one end. Baby that seed. It needs to go directly into seed starting formula. Use a 12 oz. dark colored plastic cup with several small holes in the bottom. You want it to drain freely (nearly as fast as it fills) but hold the soil. Fill the bottom 1/3rd with good sterile moistened potting soil that has fertilizer already mixed in (don't add your own). The Miracle Gro mentioned above is fine. There is better, but most is worse. If you add a tablespoon of perlite it is great for this job. I would not use Miracle Gro Moisture Control Soil. Whatever you use must be sterile. That's the important difference between potting soil and all the other soils at the nursury. Fill the second third of the cup with seed starting formula. Jiffy and Scott's are fine. You could make your own, but it would cost a lot more considering how little you need. Barely moisten it with a spray bottle using half strength chamomile tea (it's a gentle fungicide with useful minerals). Stir it around a little and barely moisten it again. Poke a pencil eraser sized hole in the middle. Drop in the cracked seed. Cover with dry formula. Gently press it down with a finger to seat the seed. Very lightly mist again. Cover cup with plastic wrap fastened with a rubber band. Slit wrap about an inch with razor. Place in well lit indoor location. When sprout appears remove plastic, and bury stem in 1/2 dry starting formula and 1/2 dry potting mix, so the two starter leaves are right at the surface (this prevents damping off). You know about planting them deep and burying the stem -- this is the same concept. You will fill the cup as the stem grows. When the stem reaches up another half inch, mist the old surface and bury it to the leaves with the dry mixture. Always keep the surface dry.If none of the seed cracks in 24 hours, put the sinkers inside a coffee filter. Spray it with the diluted chamomile tea. Fold it over the seed loosely and place in a zipped plastic bag that has some air in it but not blown up like a balloon. This is the same concept as soaking but allows the seed to get some oxygen. You can leave it like this for a week checking regularly for a sprout. The tea should prevent mold, but not indefinitely. Just for beans do a bunch of the floaters the same way in another bag. You may get lucky. Carefully score a few of them with a knife. Sometimes this helps life emerge. Nip a tiny piece off the end of a few with fingernail clippers. Same idea. A couple times a day hold it up to a light to see if anything is happening. If one sprouts get out the 12 ounce cup and get it going. This is a little ironic because you picked Mule Team as part of a cross. It was also an old mysterious seed that was difficult to start. Dr. Carolyn Male is somewhat famous in tomato circles for finding and introducing over a hundred heirlooms in the US. She literally wrote the book on the topic. She got Mule Team started when others failed. She's pretty accessible online. If all else fails to start German Red (after I send you the hybrid seed and some magic dust this winter), then I would send her some/most of the seed and tell her the story. She'll also know if it is a "new or missing" strain or something currently available (after she gets some fruit off of it). Eh, maybe look her up and send some now? GL

None of the 5 or so sinkers cracked. I do have about 30 seeds left so I will try this on some of them.... Wow, this is turning into quite the project!!!!

 

[TheFanatic]

The commish is wise! Thanks for the advice.

Of the More Tomato League - BINGO!!!

 

[Nick Vermeil]

I need more support from the Commish. I'm getting a ton of fruit on the tomato plants but none of them seem to be turning red even though they are huge. I'm also experiencing a lot of yellowing of the leaves which is leading me to believe they aren't getting enough water even though it either rains or I water every other day. In addition, I've got a new batch of critters all over the plants, this time little white buggers which of course you can't really see in the pictures. What say you Commish? Could the yellowing be related to the bugs? I'm trying the same organic pesticide you recommended earlier.

 

[TheFanatic]

If it helps, I have a boatload of fruit too and picked my first mater on Friday. I know that given a little time I will have more than I can possibly eat.

I also get the yellowing of the leaves. Down low usually. I snip them and sometimes even the whole branch. I want the plant spending its energy on fruit not more suckers or dying leaves/branches...

 

[Nick Vermeil]

If it helps, I have a boatload of fruit too and picked my first mater on Friday. I know that given a little time I will have more than I can possibly eat. I also get the yellowing of the leaves. Down low usually. I snip them and sometimes even the whole branch. I want the plant spending its energy on fruit not more suckers or dying leaves/branches...

I tried to snip the dead ones, but I keep getting them. I took this picture yesterday after snipping off most of the yellow leaves Friday evening. :vegetable911:

 

[TheFanatic]

If it helps, I have a boatload of fruit too and picked my first mater on Friday. I know that given a little time I will have more than I can possibly eat. I also get the yellowing of the leaves. Down low usually. I snip them and sometimes even the whole branch. I want the plant spending its energy on fruit not more suckers or dying leaves/branches...

I tried to snip the dead ones, but I keep getting them. I took this picture yesterday after snipping off most of the yellow leaves Friday evening. :vegetable911:

I can't see the pics. Blocked at work so I have no idea...Sorry...

 

[acapella]

I devoted one entire 4x4 raised bed to broccoli, which is now finished. Is there any vegetables that are good to plant at this late date, or should I just wait for the fall?

 

[Chaos Commish]

Trying to reply to these quickly.

I devoted one entire 4x4 raised bed to broccoli, which is now finished. Is there any vegetables that are good to plant at this late date, or should I just wait for the fall?

It depends on where you live but most farms plan a fall crop of some sort. If you try tomatoes you need to get very early maturing plants in the ground very soon, Stupice, Bloody Butcher, Early Girl, certain small fruited cherries and smaller determinate (bush type) plants. Lettuce performs for some in cooler conditions for a late summer early fall harvest. Same with spinach and... well, I'm a tomato grower (specifically) and others can offer better advice. Google 'fall crops' and you may be surprised at what can yet be planted, depending on your climate.

I need more support from the Commish. I'm getting a ton of fruit on the tomato plants but none of them seem to be turning red even though they are huge. I'm also experiencing a lot of yellowing of the leaves which is leading me to believe they aren't getting enough water even though it either rains or I water every other day. In addition, I've got a new batch of critters all over the plants, this time little white buggers which of course you can't really see in the pictures. What say you Commish? Could the yellowing be related to the bugs? I'm trying the same organic pesticide you recommended earlier.

I say ugh! Yes, the yellowing (chlorosis) could be related to the bugs (whitefly). But chlorotic leaves could be indicative of several things the whitefly didn't cause, and as Fanatic mentioned, to some extent it is normal as the season progresses. Nonetheless, you have a major infestation on that plant. It could be too late for my homespun advice. Sorry, summer is no time to be online for San Diegans. Whitefly is a multi-billion dollar problem so don't expect any miraculous solutions to a third or fourth gen hatch like I see in those pics. If you caught the first generation to arrive you probably could have succeeded with yellow sticky traps around the plants and couple three Safer treatments. Since you have all four phases of the critter crawling on it you could do what we do in the greenhouses, ditch the plant after bagging and fogging it, or you can get aggressive with the treatment. Btw, this is a good example of why I think a cheap Bell Pepper plant is great to have near your toms. The Bell would have looked like this (usually) before the whitefly went after the tomatoes. That was the situation along the south side of my house recently. I bagged and pulled two Bells then hit them with standard Raid on their way to the trash. The rest had the worst leaves removed, bagged and sprayed. The worst leaves are the ones covered with eggs and preflight flies. Then yellow sticky traps went in, around, over and beside all the plants. I make my own with bright yellow poster board, vaseline, oil and plastic bags. Put a cut to fit piece of yellow poster board in the plastic bag, seal it, and coat the outside with a 50-50 mixture of the sticky stuff. Throw the bags away when loaded with bad guys and reuse the still clean poster board. The traps catch mature whitefly but do nothing about the eggs and pupae. Unfotunately most sprays do the same thing. As I advised Tipsey, you must spray the bugs. Not just the plants. Now you know I meant the mature bugs, the ones with wings that flitter about then settle back into the plants. Spraying the plants but not the bugs is a waste of spray. This is difficult but important. Neem oil (supposedly) prevents the pupae from maturing, but not from feeding on your leaves. Lady bugs eat the eggs and pupae, but often don't stick around (thus they're great in greenhouses). Still if I really wanted to save those plants, assuming it isn't too late, I would deal with the adults as above (traps and spray daily for three days), then turn loose 500 to 1500 ladybugs for $10 (you can find them). Of course, this makes better sense when the beetles have a dozen or more plants to work, but it's a fun project on less plants anyway. Finally, a dirt devil (small vacuum) carefully applied with the smallest attachment will suck off the adults you surprise and many of the younger whitefly. This is generally done very early in the morning around dawn as the flies are inactive then. Then suck up some Raid or other insecticide into the vacuum. Keep on them for a few days. You can win the battle, but not by buying Safer and just spraying down the plants every few days. Understand the fight. You are battling adults from laying eggs with the sprays, the traps and the vacuum. You are battling eggs, pupae, and larvae from maturing and feeding with neem and/or ladybugs and some of them with the vacuum too.

God bless, thoughts and prayers.

None of the 5 or so sinkers cracked. I do have about 30 seeds left so I will try this on some of them.... Wow, this is turning into quite the project!!!!

Did you put them in moist coffee filters in plastic bags? Or are we waiting for spring? See the soaked seed is pretty much ruined if it doesn't crack so I would have continued to work on it.

Intensive Orchard Plantings

Anybody have experience with this sort of planting for fruit trees? I've read a couple of books that were talking about the methods on this website and how you get good yields and easy harvest for a family by doing this with 2-4 trees spaced at 18" apart. You could do different varieties of fruit or use different varieties of the same fruit that would ripen at different times in order to have a continuous supply of fresh fruit. I'd love to do something like this in my yard and get some fruit going.

Yes! Several years ago I read up on the "citrus hedges" that the University of Arizona experimented with and converted a lonely row of 16 different oranges, lemons, limes, tangerines, grapefruit and tangelos (15' spacing) into a intensively planted hedge of 50 citrus trees, adding two trees between each and a couple onto the ends (5' spacing). They've done great. Spacing is highly overrated (for pretty much all crops) compared to plant nutrition, proper moisture, and good weather. I just saw a garden (which made me remember to check on this thread) where mammoth sunflowers were 10 feet tall and being used as stakes for climbing cucumbers that were up about 7 feet and dangling dozens of ready to pick cukes. This garden was only ten foot by five foot. It had 20 sunflower plants in it, which is about double the recommended spacing. And it had ten cukes going, which is almost triple the recommended spacing. But since everything was going up and heavily fed it worked. I'm going to try this next year if I can sacrifice some mater space. I'm going to try various smaller melons on string trellises. I have one sugar baby watermelon plant among the maters and it's a good 15 feet long with only three melons developing, but I have pretty much ignored it.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Holy crap Commish! Stand by, I have to go in and quit my job. Life was easier before I became a farmer.

 

[JerseyToughGuys]

How do I know when green beans are ripe and done growing?

 

[zander_s]

My cilantro and basil are flowering? Is this normal? I have so many flowers on the cilantro i can hardly pull leaves from it.

 

[Chaos Commish]

JTG -- Green beans should be picked early and often. The "green" in the name implies not just color but picking premature. Mature green bean pods will swell where the seed is developing and those aren't so tasty. You can eat them, but they'll disappoint compared to the younger bean pods. Also, picking them immature keeps them coming. The more a plant matures the closer it is to being dead, like anything else. Also also, they should "snap" when broken in half. If it snaps it's mature enough. If it's swelling it's too mature. Early and often is a simple rule though.

zander, the Basil and Cilantro are bolting. That means you didn't harvest enough or they're just finishing up. It is similar to the green beans above. You want to prevent flowering, which is reproduction, new life, fresh death, going to seed and all that. You prevent flowering by harvesting the leaves constantly, and snipping the stems down. Eventually any plant will finish up, but a steady harvest prolongs things. The leaves will not taste nearly as good after the plant has flowered, btw. Basil is a little easier to control than Cilantro. When it gets warm Basil will just slow down a bit and can be harvested to prevent flowering; cilantro will flower quickly and die in an effort to reseed itself. Cilantro seed is born ready, and the plants prefer cool weather. Just wait for the flowers to finish their show and put the little brown seeds back in the ground and you'll have a fall crop. If you have a lot you can save some seed for the pepper grinder and make ground coriander with it. It's excellent fresh.

 

[zander_s]

JTG -- Green beans should be picked early and often. The "green" in the name implies not just color but picking premature. Mature green bean pods will swell where the seed is developing and those aren't so tasty. You can eat them, but they'll disappoint compared to the younger bean pods. Also, picking them immature keeps them coming. The more a plant matures the closer it is to being dead, like anything else. Also also, they should "snap" when broken in half. If it snaps it's mature enough. If it's swelling it's too mature. Early and often is a simple rule though.zander, the Basil and Cilantro are bolting. That means you didn't harvest enough or they're just finishing up. It is similar to the green beans above. You want to prevent flowering, which is reproduction, new life, fresh death, going to seed and all that. You prevent flowering by harvesting the leaves constantly, and snipping the stems down. Eventually any plant will finish up, but a steady harvest prolongs things. The leaves will not taste nearly as good after the plant has flowered, btw. Basil is a little easier to control than Cilantro. When it gets warm Basil will just slow down a bit and can be harvested to prevent flowering; cilantro will flower quickly and die in an effort to reseed itself. Cilantro seed is born ready, and the plants prefer cool weather. Just wait for the flowers to finish their show and put the little brown seeds back in the ground and you'll have a fall crop. If you have a lot you can save some seed for the pepper grinder and make ground coriander with it. It's excellent fresh.

Thanks! Guess i'll harvest what i can and move forward.

 

[TheFanatic]

For Basil, you will see when it is getting ready to flower. Whenever you see these tiny tower looking structures growing our of the tops of the branches, remove them and the leaves immediately below them. You keep doing that and you will have basil all summer long. Let them flower tho and it will get bitter...

 

[TheFanatic]

None of the 5 or so sinkers cracked. I do have about 30 seeds left so I will try this on some of them.... Wow, this is turning into quite the project!!!!

Did you put them in moist coffee filters in plastic bags? Or are we waiting for spring? See the soaked seed is pretty much ruined if it doesn't crack so I would have continued to work on it.

It's time to wait till Spring. But actually I may be saved here. My uncle has been growing the same German Reds for years. My Grandfather gave him seeds about 20 years ago. So I may be getting some fresh ones here soon for next year...

 

[Men-in-Cleats]

Intensive Orchard Plantings

Anybody have experience with this sort of planting for fruit trees? I've read a couple of books that were talking about the methods on this website and how you get good yields and easy harvest for a family by doing this with 2-4 trees spaced at 18" apart. You could do different varieties of fruit or use different varieties of the same fruit that would ripen at different times in order to have a continuous supply of fresh fruit. I'd love to do something like this in my yard and get some fruit going.

Yes! Several years ago I read up on the "citrus hedges" that the University of Arizona experimented with and converted a lonely row of 16 different oranges, lemons, limes, tangerines, grapefruit and tangelos (15' spacing) into a intensively planted hedge of 50 citrus trees, adding two trees between each and a couple onto the ends (5' spacing). They've done great. Spacing is highly overrated (for pretty much all crops) compared to plant nutrition, proper moisture, and good weather. I just saw a garden (which made me remember to check on this thread) where mammoth sunflowers were 10 feet tall and being used as stakes for climbing cucumbers that were up about 7 feet and dangling dozens of ready to pick cukes. This garden was only ten foot by five foot. It had 20 sunflower plants in it, which is about double the recommended spacing. And it had ten cukes going, which is almost triple the recommended spacing. But since everything was going up and heavily fed it worked. I'm going to try this next year if I can sacrifice some mater space. I'm going to try various smaller melons on string trellises. I have one sugar baby watermelon plant among the maters and it's a good 15 feet long with only three melons developing, but I have pretty much ignored it.

In my backyard the developer was pretty minimal with his plantings along the fences, putting in an upright arborvitae at about 10' or so on center with a single tree rose between them. Personally, I'd 86 most of those roses in a heartbeat as they are a pain to maintain, deadhead, etc. but my wife loves those. Instead what I'd like to do is take out the arborvitae and put a pair of closely spaced fruit trees at each spot for a total of 8 trees. Will probably do that this fall as there are some nursery sales where I can get them deeply discounted and because July is not the time to be transplanting anything into your yard given we spent the last week at 100+ degrees pretty much every day. Would like to plant apples, pears, some sort of summer stone fruit, maybe cherries, or perhaps even some citrus. I've thought about espalier somewhere in there as I've always been fascinated with that but the fence needs repairs/replacement in many areas and I don't want to have anything staked to it. I will definitely be doing something like this but just need to figure out what will work best and what varieties to do. Garden update: Silvery Fir Tree has tons of little green toms on it right now and the other two varieties have blooms but no toms yet, assume they are just a bit slower maturing due to being heirloom varieties and also because I planted them a little while after the SFT. Carrots in the one tomato barrel are doing great even though I never got around to thinning them and there are way, way too many of them in there. Need to harvest some baby carrots soon to give the others a bit more room. Eggplant has a couple of blooms on it and the pepper plants are going berserk. Harvested a couple of N.M. chiles and one of the super firey ones (can't recall the name) for burritos last night. Will have to make a lot of spicy foods soon or perhaps try my hand at making some hotsauce. Need to get the tomatoes going better so I can use the peppers for salsa. May just have to buy some from farmer's market to use up some peppers until my plants get more finished product on them. Herbs are all doing great right now, have more basil than I know what to do with. Might be time to make more pesto even though I just did a week and a half ago.

 

[siffoin]

Quick update:

So everything in the garden is thriving. In the raised bed section...all is growing pretty normally. Don't have any pests, yet.

However, the potato box is over. The potatoes rotted. I think what happened is about 2 weeks ago we got an afternoon deluge that dumped 2-3" of water in about 2 hours. I think during that time the plants got too much water and began to rot. Before then...they were thriving and had grown above the highest capacity of the structure and were even beginning to flower. Totally sucks. Next year I need some way to determine how much moisture the plants are receiving...I blew it.

On my upstairs deck...the earthboxes are out of control. The tomato plants are at least 5.5 feet tall and wide. Each plant has numerous tomatoes...and I'm maybe a week or 2 from the first ripe harvest. The peppers are doing well too...but the "fruit" is small. No pests so far. Everything in the EBs are very healthy. And next year I may add 5-6 more earthboxes...they are much easier and better harvest.

 

[TheFanatic]

Quick update:So everything in the garden is thriving. In the raised bed section...all is growing pretty normally. Don't have any pests, yet.However, the potato box is over. The potatoes rotted. I think what happened is about 2 weeks ago we got an afternoon deluge that dumped 2-3" of water in about 2 hours. I think during that time the plants got too much water and began to rot. Before then...they were thriving and had grown above the highest capacity of the structure and were even beginning to flower. Totally sucks. Next year I need some way to determine how much moisture the plants are receiving...I blew it.On my upstairs deck...the earthboxes are out of control. The tomato plants are at least 5.5 feet tall and wide. Each plant has numerous tomatoes...and I'm maybe a week or 2 from the first ripe harvest. The peppers are doing well too...but the "fruit" is small. No pests so far. Everything in the EBs are very healthy. And next year I may add 5-6 more earthboxes...they are much easier and better harvest.

It seems I'm ahead of you on tomatoes but way behind on peppers. My maters are more than 7 feet tall and I have already plucked 6-8 good size ones. Three of my plants are still a bit away from producing fruit, but the other two are going nuts. But my peppers are crap. I'm growing what was listed as yellow bell peppers, but I thought all bell peppers start off green and the longer they are on the vine the closer they get to yellow. Well, the plants are only like 3 feet tall and flower all the time but those flowers never turn into anything...

 

[zander_s]

Quick update:So everything in the garden is thriving. In the raised bed section...all is growing pretty normally. Don't have any pests, yet.However, the potato box is over. The potatoes rotted. I think what happened is about 2 weeks ago we got an afternoon deluge that dumped 2-3" of water in about 2 hours. I think during that time the plants got too much water and began to rot. Before then...they were thriving and had grown above the highest capacity of the structure and were even beginning to flower. Totally sucks. Next year I need some way to determine how much moisture the plants are receiving...I blew it.On my upstairs deck...the earthboxes are out of control. The tomato plants are at least 5.5 feet tall and wide. Each plant has numerous tomatoes...and I'm maybe a week or 2 from the first ripe harvest. The peppers are doing well too...but the "fruit" is small. No pests so far. Everything in the EBs are very healthy. And next year I may add 5-6 more earthboxes...they are much easier and better harvest.

It seems I'm ahead of you on tomatoes but way behind on peppers. My maters are more than 7 feet tall and I have already plucked 6-8 good size ones. Three of my plants are still a bit away from producing fruit, but the other two are going nuts. But my peppers are crap. I'm growing what was listed as yellow bell peppers, but I thought all bell peppers start off green and the longer they are on the vine the closer they get to yellow. Well, the plants are only like 3 feet tall and flower all the time but those flowers never turn into anything...

I've got peppers turning from green to red but they aren't any bigger than a lime???

 

[Chaos Commish]

What kind of peppers, exactly, are having issues? Fanatic named yellow bells. I'm guessing that's the Bonnie hybrid common in big box nurseries like Home Depot. If so, they are a medium sized bell no matter the advertising, and the walls are a little thin and disappointing. With toms we can find great cultivars just about anywhere, but the better BIG bell pepper cultivars are hard to find. I'll list a few at the bottom. You'll probably have to grow from seed and they take a week or so longer than toms to germinate. California Wonder (though quite tasty when right) is not one of them. It's just the most common and probably the most productive, easiest to grow. That brings the buyers back year after year. It's also medium sized, somewhat thin walled despite the advertising.

Like tomatoes there's a few thousand varieties. If you can grow tomatoes you can grow peppers. They are both members of the nightshade family, Solanaceae Capsicum (pepper) or Sol. Lycopersicon (tomato). Those who rotate crops never follow tomatoes with peppers because they are the same family (eggplant and potato too, btw).

Like tomatoes the small fruited are a piece of cake to grow. My serranos and jalepenos have put out huge yields and won't stop giving (this happens every year). Same with Sungold, Yellow Pear and SS100 cherry toms. My bells are finicky, but I've harvested about 20 from 8 plants and expect them to pick it up in the early fall.

The bigger the fruit, in general, the more difficult they are to grow successfully. Though with many larger bell peppers, this seems to be exaggerated. If there is a major difference in requirements it's just that each item important to a big beefsteak tomato might be a little more important to a big bell, from a precision standpoint. The self watering containers on the market do such a precise job of watering, I think they are much better suited to peppers than tomatoes (which need more space, imo). Even moisture, excellent weather, heavy mulch, loose rich tilth, regular careful diluted fertilization schedule, etc. They have shallow roots in comparison and wilt sooner if dry, so water them consistently, and keep them mulched. Peppers like it a little warmer than tomatoes, but can be more heat sensitive if it gets really hot. Blossom drop (flower but no fruit) over 90 degrees and under 70 at night is very common with larger bells. Peppers also seem to respond better to magnesium and nitrogen boosts, and may require a little more than toms, pound for pound. Epsom salts (Magnesium Sulfate, two tbspn per gallon) as a foliar spray or soil drench can often get them going (fruiting). Choose your own nitrogen, but feed them. Pepper plants seem to stunt easily. I've seen a lot of unhappy gardeners grabbing undersized bells off of undersized plants. The plant is undersized 9 times out of 10 because the available nitrogen has leached lower than the roots reach (I'm guessing, but pretty certain). This messes up the taste and wall thickness too. Nitrogen leaches easily while phosphorus and pot ash don't move much, so going a little nitrogen heavy after rains or heavy watering is a must. I keep a basic 21-0-0 lawn fetilizer around to make plants grow if they're stubborn. Peppers usually respond nicely. Also understand it takes three weeks to just over a month for a full size greenie to turn pure red (or whatever the final color is). I've been harvesting them green, but I have selected a few to wait on for full brix sweetness.

If you understand hydroponic greenhouse growing, then you know I am describing a perfect candidate in big bells. It is very hard to match the indoor growers, and what you see at the market with common cultivars like Cal Wonder. You can kill them for bright peppery crunchy juiciness, but not for size, thickness and appearance. I highly recommend Chinese Giant (my favorite big'un), Big Bertha, Goliath, Summer Sweet and Yellow Monster (finicky though). My very favorite is a purple called Tequila, not so big but outstanding quality. I'm sure I have some extra Chinese Giant, Big Bertha and or Goliath seed I will send to the tomato hybrid experimenters who want some. Let me know.

 

[TheFanatic]

Looks like I'm growing all kind #### from seed next year!!!

 

[ditka85]

An offer:

A rule of thumb I try to stick with (since burying the bodies ten years ago) is to not get into my personal or professional life much online. But as E Street Brat guessed, I do have a side business growing tomatoes, and it is probably going to expand in a big way in the next few years. I've had a contract with a wholesaler for a particular tomato (no big deal, tasteless yellow paste type) since 04. That contract has allowed me to grow and sell some other varieties that catch a better price. I live a half hour from the greenhouses, one costly employee and one minimum wager do the real work. Bla bla, it's been growing steadily, threatening to make a real profit, and I have big ideas for expansion (in my retirement) that I cannot really afford but I'm moving forward anyway.

Here's the thought. I'm seeking my own hybrid. Something that will perform beautifully in hot conditions that's unique (and good). I don't have to succeed in the search because there's dozens of worthy varieties readily available. Nonetheless, I have the time to do this. This is both a passion and a past time for me, so I'd like to make some of you an offer for you to grow a tomato that perhaps has never been tried before. You can even pick the hybrid (limited to crossing types that I am growing). Sound like fun?

Everything I am growing (for this purpose) has one or more of three traits. It is known to be heat tolerant, it is from a strain believed to be heat tolerant, or it is very early to ripen. Early works in the desert because you can bring in a crop by July 1, destroy those plants, and get a second fall crop if you do it right. You can grow all of these anywhere, so don't worry about that.

I'm crossing 20 some varieties with Super Sioux, which is as far as I can tell the best heirloom for my conditions. God only knows what I'll get, which is part of the fun. Some of these will fail, I'm sure. Everything is in bloom right now, and who knows maybe some combo of those 20 not including Super Sioux will come out awesome. I was planning on trying a few, but I cannot decide which, so I'll let a few of you do that. And your efforts may help me learn something about a combo. Who knows?

If interested, I ask a couple things. I'm going to spend a few hours on your hybrid, so unless you die or worse, I want you to be certain you can give this seed an honest effort next spring and be around to report your results. I will be sending you some seed and saving some of the same for here in my various conditions. I doubt 12 of you are IN, but I am limiting this to a dozen combos. I'm reserving one for siffoin, who I suspect will want to give this a try, so it's fcfs for 11 of you. I'll ask for your mailing information when the seed is ready. I don't want it now. I'm keeping track of too many things already.

I'll list the 20 varieties you can cross with links about them later this weekend when I have the time.

Ugh. I think I have them memorized, so without links (do your own looking here and here):

I arranged these in order of my own interest and anticipated success:

Moskvich (a nice choice for any cross, imo)

Dona (excellent French market mater)

Carmello (similar but more productive than Dona)

Porter's Dark Cherry (ate six yesterday, saved 200 seeds)

Mule Team

Tropic

Amana Orange

Red Beefsteak (strong western strain, sort of unidentified)

Florida Pink (vigorous like a hybrid)

Great White

Goliath (not the nursery hybrid, an heirloom from the 1800s)

Pruden's Purple

Arkansas Traveler

Rose

Cherokee Chocolate

Cherokee Purple

Eva Purple Ball

Sudduth's Brandywine

Black Prince

Green Zebra

Delicious (world record size holder, early for a beast)

Yellow Pear (I'd hesitate, we sun dry them for a farmer's market vendor)

As a caveat, when I take apart a bloom to give it another's pollen, I need to see the fruit from that flower set to believe I have a successful cross. That doesn't always mean it's own pollen didn't do the job, nor does it mean that that fruit will mature viable seed. But it is fun to try and "we've" been successful more often than not. If I fail to get a cross, I'll send you some good seed from the plants anyway. That may alter your thinking on a combo.

Pick two.

I just found this thread and hope I can still get some seeds for next year, CC. Is this possible? Passionate grower in the Chicago area, start most my plants indoors from seed in early March.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I just found this thread and hope I can still get some seeds for next year, CC. Is this possible? Passionate grower in the Chicago area, start most my plants indoors from seed in early March.

I'm not going to do anymore crosses at this time, but I'm always happy to send seed to a passionate grower if I can learn something. If you have space, I have some experimental seed I'd like others to try that hasn't been mentioned in this thread. One is a bright orange, just bigger than golf ball sized tomato with a true tangerine citrus taste that supposedly delivers 20 times the amino acids and lycopene (cancer fighting tomato substance) as regular maters. It was killer in salsa, but a little different on its own. I also have seed from a mild fruity tasting, big, perfectly round, smooth, bright yellow tomato that the geniuses in the Netherlands haven't released yet. I'm going to grow out a few of each next year both indoors and out. I know its been bred for greenhouses. That mainly means it won't perform under blazing bright sunshine. Coastal areas, northern areas, etc., may be excellent. It is an impressive yellow. Really impressive, freaking gorgeous, and mild on the tongue. I like a bolder flavor, but this thing turned heads it was so yellow. Almost looked like it had a light inside it at night. I'd love a report from Chicago on either of these. For that matter, I would be curious to see how my strain of Beefsteak performs there. It is a nice mater we've been calling Western Beefsteak that you will not find anywhere else. One old Sicilian personally selected the strain for a couple decades before it was passed on to me in the late 90s. So it's been isolated for at least 30 years from other Beefsteaks. It loves Southern California and may just be real hardy anywhere. Dunno.

If you're willing to do one or both of the first two then I'll send you some other fun seed (not experimental but guaranteed delicious and productive), but you have to report back. Also anyone interested in the orange and/or yellow, the seed is limited, possibly not stable (meaning one grower will get something different than another sometimes, but it should all be good), I am happy to send a small amount to various regions with a guarantee you will give it a solid... er... passionate effort. Let me know. The orange is very limited. I can send out three or four samples and want to keep the rest. The yellow probably as many as a dozen little packets can be shipped out. So Chicago would qualify as northern midwest, and I won't be sending anymore that way, but other areas still interest me.

How we doin'? Just about everyone but the rainsoaked, blight inflicted, northeast should be munching maters by now, right? I may have to write up my tomato harvesting lecture for you guys. Hmm.

 

[ditka85]

I just found this thread and hope I can still get some seeds for next year, CC. Is this possible? Passionate grower in the Chicago area, start most my plants indoors from seed in early March.

I'm not going to do anymore crosses at this time, but I'm always happy to send seed to a passionate grower if I can learn something. If you have space, I have some experimental seed I'd like others to try that hasn't been mentioned in this thread. One is a bright orange, just bigger than golf ball sized tomato with a true tangerine citrus taste that supposedly delivers 20 times the amino acids and lycopene (cancer fighting tomato substance) as regular maters. It was killer in salsa, but a little different on its own. I also have seed from a mild fruity tasting, big, perfectly round, smooth, bright yellow tomato that the geniuses in the Netherlands haven't released yet. I'm going to grow out a few of each next year both indoors and out. I know its been bred for greenhouses. That mainly means it won't perform under blazing bright sunshine. Coastal areas, northern areas, etc., may be excellent. It is an impressive yellow. Really impressive, freaking gorgeous, and mild on the tongue. I like a bolder flavor, but this thing turned heads it was so yellow. Almost looked like it had a light inside it at night. I'd love a report from Chicago on either of these. For that matter, I would be curious to see how my strain of Beefsteak performs there. It is a nice mater we've been calling Western Beefsteak that you will not find anywhere else. One old Sicilian personally selected the strain for a couple decades before it was passed on to me in the late 90s. So it's been isolated for at least 30 years from other Beefsteaks. It loves Southern California and may just be real hardy anywhere. Dunno.

If you're willing to do one or both of the first two then I'll send you some other fun seed (not experimental but guaranteed delicious and productive), but you have to report back. Also anyone interested in the orange and/or yellow, the seed is limited, possibly not stable (meaning one grower will get something different than another sometimes, but it should all be good), I am happy to send a small amount to various regions with a guarantee you will give it a solid... er... passionate effort. Let me know. The orange is very limited. I can send out three or four samples and want to keep the rest. The yellow probably as many as a dozen little packets can be shipped out. So Chicago would qualify as northern midwest, and I won't be sending anymore that way, but other areas still interest me.

How we doin'? Just about everyone but the rainsoaked, blight inflicted, northeast should be munching maters by now, right? I may have to write up my tomato harvesting lecture for you guys. Hmm.

I'd be more than happy to take anything you could throw my way. Oddly enough, I grow orange oxhearts and yellow jubilees every year. But I have plenty of space and would love to try a different strain. If any of those Cherokee Chocolates or Purples find their way here, that would REALLY make my day! You can count on me to give you a progress report, accompanied with pics to boot.To show my appreciation, I'd like to send you some Melrose Pepper seeds if you are interested. They have the taste of a green bell pepper but have a thinner flesh and are shaped much like a banana pepper. They are great stuffed with italian sausage and mozzarella, fried or tossed in a salad. The particular strain I have was developed by an old Italian gentleman from the Melrose Park (IL) neighborhood decades ago. His strain produces larger (6-8") peppers than the norm (3-5").

PM me for my info at your convenience. Your PM box appears to be full at the moment. Looking forward to 2010's harvest already! Thanx again, CC!

 

[Chaos Commish]

PM me for my info at your convenience. Your PM box appears to be full at the moment. Looking forward to 2010's harvest already! Thanx again, CC!

My plan is to get the seed organized by early November, run germination tests before Thanksgiving and send everyone Christmas cards with stocking stuffers. Two of the hybrids are ready, but some of the bonus seed I want to send along isn't, and I don't feel like messing with germination tests during harvest. I'm moving over a ton of maters a week right now, and some of it I have to practically give away because Mexico is saturating the market.

I'll get everyone's addresses when I need them. I'll happily take some of that pepper seed and some seed from the Oxheart. I know they don't have much seed, but there's enough to send me some. I love Orange Oxheart's sister/parent Pink Oxheart. It is an amazing tomato for sauce making. I prefer big oxhearts to paste tomatoes for making sauce. They are just as meaty, have even less seed, are bigger thus easier to skin a bunch, and taste far far better,imo. Marinara made from a red Oxhearts called Anna Russian and Pink Oxhearts is the best I have ever had (of course my mom made it). Mom grows the pinks herself every year and believes they are big Italian paste tomatoes.

Orange tomatoes may turn into a fad in the next five years because of the cranked up carotenes and sweetness. I would like to try this one even though I like tangy tomatoes personally. I've probably seen it at a farmer's market. I am sure I've never tried it, but I have seen her gene pool in some of the geekier stuff I do. I've been reading up on the orange genes over the health benefits business.

I'll be at farmer's markets all weekend, so have a good one.

 

[ditka85]

PM me for my info at your convenience. Your PM box appears to be full at the moment. Looking forward to 2010's harvest already! Thanx again, CC!

My plan is to get the seed organized by early November, run germination tests before Thanksgiving and send everyone Christmas cards with stocking stuffers. Two of the hybrids are ready, but some of the bonus seed I want to send along isn't, and I don't feel like messing with germination tests during harvest. I'm moving over a ton of maters a week right now, and some of it I have to practically give away because Mexico is saturating the market.

I'll get everyone's addresses when I need them. I'll happily take some of that pepper seed and some seed from the Oxheart. I know they don't have much seed, but there's enough to send me some. I love Orange Oxheart's sister/parent Pink Oxheart. It is an amazing tomato for sauce making. I prefer big oxhearts to paste tomatoes for making sauce. They are just as meaty, have even less seed, are bigger thus easier to skin a bunch, and taste far far better,imo. Marinara made from a red Oxhearts called Anna Russian and Pink Oxhearts is the best I have ever had (of course my mom made it). Mom grows the pinks herself every year and believes they are big Italian paste tomatoes.

Orange tomatoes may turn into a fad in the next five years because of the cranked up carotenes and sweetness. I would like to try this one even though I like tangy tomatoes personally. I've probably seen it at a farmer's market. I am sure I've never tried it, but I have seen her gene pool in some of the geekier stuff I do. I've been reading up on the orange genes over the health benefits business.

I'll be at farmer's markets all weekend, so have a good one.

You got it. Guess I assumed you already had any strain you want at your disposal.

 

[siffoin]

So I "harvested" and ate the 1st tomato from the Earthboxes yesterday. In the end I don't think I'm much of a farmer. One plant got blossom end rot...which I hope I fixed via hydrated lime from the EB forum. Still I had to pull off every single fruit from that plant. Then I walked out to the deck yesterday afternoon, and saw my big pepper plant had fallen over from sheer size. I found some stakes and it seems to be doing alright. I think I should be getting at least one tomato per day for a while...and hope that new fruit begin to develop...I'm not really sure what to expect. Overall I'm impressed with the earthboxes. I think maybe I'll get 3 more for next year. Though while we were eating the tomato last night I got a comment from my wife about how this "first" tomato cost $250.

The raised beds are all fine. Tons of herbs. The potatoes died...and it was from pilot error. I replanted the box with carrots and they have sprouted.

Here are some pics of the earthboxes. Note the green PVC "trellis" is just a little over 6 feet tall.

http://picasaweb.google.com/steelhedge/Sif...224357665197378

http://picasaweb.google.com/steelhedge/Sif...224397706229138

http://picasaweb.google.com/steelhedge/Sif...224461458576114

http://picasaweb.google.com/steelhedge/Sif...224491295035410

 

[Chaos Commish]

You got it. Guess I assumed you already had any strain you want at your disposal.

I could order the seed. It's more interesting to say I got this off a fantasy football board from some dude named Ditka in Chicago. And since you're already sending the more unique pepper seed, seems simple enough. I may emphasize oxhearts next year. They seem under represented for how versatile they are. I have plenty of Cherokee seed so that request is simple to fill. If I'm already sending you something and you'd like to try a specific seed mentioned in one of my posts (Fanatic wants Goliath, Ditka85 wants Cherokee), just say so and my decisions are easier. Figure you're going to get your experiment and three or four others. Siff, there's a 2-5 year learning curve on a project like yours and you're easily on the two year track. You'll get better results every year you stick with it for the first few years until you finally get comfortable growing. Some years produce banner crops, others are devastated by blight. It's a gamble that may be partly why I'm drawn to it. My BiL, who is taking care of the containers I sent out to the desert, also complained about his $200 tomato. BER is a common issue in farmer's fields everywhere even when they do everything right. It generally appears early in the season, is most common among paste varieties, cull them quickly, but only them, and the plant usually figures out how to use the soil on it's own. I was culling by the dozen in May. Adding lime may or may not help. If you're using earthworm castings the lime was likely unnecessary. I see six maters in pic 2 that should be picked.I don't know if it's in this thread, PMs or just my imagination, but I think I recommended growing some very hardy varieties when you first start this type of thing. Brandywines can be a pain to grow although this is a better year than usual for them. They rarely crop heavily. Next year try a few Big Beef, Champion, Better Boy, Big Boy, Lemon Boy, Early Girl, Celebrity, Roma. The usual suspects from Home Depot. The first six listed can produce world class tomatoes in perfect conditions, and will produce lovely tomatoes in most conditions. The first two being a bit better than the rest, imo. Big Beef is one of the finest tomatoes available to anyone. Period. They can all taste better than many fancy heirlooms and are far easier to grow. The last two will produce loads almost regardless of conditions (my 2 mostly ignored 20' rows of celebs and romas went bananas this year) and are fine fruits superior to store bought (actually identical to store bought just homegrown goodness). Get the fundamentals down while making layups before casting away from the three point stripe. Brandywine is at half court with a hand in your face.

 

[siffoin]

You got it. Guess I assumed you already had any strain you want at your disposal.

I could order the seed. It's more interesting to say I got this off a fantasy football board from some dude named Ditka in Chicago. And since you're already sending the more unique pepper seed, seems simple enough. I may emphasize oxhearts next year. They seem under represented for how versatile they are. I have plenty of Cherokee seed so that request is simple to fill. If I'm already sending you something and you'd like to try a specific seed mentioned in one of my posts (Fanatic wants Goliath, Ditka85 wants Cherokee), just say so and my decisions are easier. Figure you're going to get your experiment and three or four others. Siff, there's a 2-5 year learning curve on a project like yours and you're easily on the two year track. You'll get better results every year you stick with it for the first few years until you finally get comfortable growing. Some years produce banner crops, others are devastated by blight. It's a gamble that may be partly why I'm drawn to it. My BiL, who is taking care of the containers I sent out to the desert, also complained about his $200 tomato. BER is a common issue in farmer's fields everywhere even when they do everything right. It generally appears early in the season, is most common among paste varieties, cull them quickly, but only them, and the plant usually figures out how to use the soil on it's own. I was culling by the dozen in May. Adding lime may or may not help. If you're using earthworm castings the lime was likely unnecessary. I see six maters in pic 2 that should be picked.

I don't know if it's in this thread, PMs or just my imagination, but I think I recommended growing some very hardy varieties when you first start this type of thing. Brandywines can be a pain to grow although this is a better year than usual for them. They rarely crop heavily. Next year try a few Big Beef, Champion, Better Boy, Big Boy, Lemon Boy, Early Girl, Celebrity, Roma. The usual suspects from Home Depot. The first six listed can produce world class tomatoes in perfect conditions, and will produce lovely tomatoes in most conditions. The first two being a bit better than the rest, imo. Big Beef is one of the finest tomatoes available to anyone. Period. They can all taste better than many fancy heirlooms and are far easier to grow. The last two will produce loads almost regardless of conditions (my 2 mostly ignored 20' rows of celebs and romas went bananas this year) and are fine fruits superior to store bought (actually identical to store bought just homegrown goodness). Get the fundamentals down while making layups before casting away from the three point stripe. Brandywine is at half court with a hand in your face.

There was a PM discussion about this and I did take your advice early on. I planted Arkansas Traveler, Giant Valentine, Burpee Big Girl and Jetsetter as the 4 plants in the earthboxes. I believe those were among some you suggested. I planted a few brandywine in the raise bed...one has made it to knee high. I picked 8 tomatoes today...and we've eaten 4 or 5 already...so I'm getting my costs basis down. I'm not down on the whole project...and in comparison to my neighbors...no one has harvested anything but me (it was a wet and cold June). I'm most bummed about the potatoes. I mean if you can't grow potatoes in Idaho...that's got to be pretty bad.

Did my "cross-breeds" work out? One neighbor saw my earthboxes...they are ex-LDS...and have a huge indoor greenhouse...and said I can plant the seedlings in the winter to give them the best start.

I do appreciate all your help...and the maters DO taste great! And next year I think I want to get a few more earthboxes...pretty much fill that upstairs deck so maybe 8 in total...and used the raised bed for herbs and such like that.

 

[TheFanatic]

I have good news and bad news. Good news, I have two nice size green peppers and a boatload more tiny ones but at least they are finally producing fruit.

The bad news is the yellow/dying leaf problem I had with my tomatoes low has moved up the stem. Some are dead halfway up the plant. I don't see any critters. Just dying leaves. I'm getting good fruit from all of them where the leaves are not dead. I've had this a little down low on my plants but nothing like this. Is it a disease? Sorry, no pics...

 

[Chaos Commish]

There was a PM discussion about this and I did take your advice early on. I planted Arkansas Traveler, Giant Valentine, Burpee Big Girl and Jetsetter as the 4 plants in the earthboxes. I believe those were among some you suggested. I planted a few brandywine in the raise bed...one has made it to knee high. I picked 8 tomatoes today...and we've eaten 4 or 5 already...so I'm getting my costs basis down. I'm not down on the whole project...and in comparison to my neighbors...no one has harvested anything but me (it was a wet and cold June). I'm most bummed about the potatoes. I mean if you can't grow potatoes in Idaho...that's got to be pretty bad.Did my "cross-breeds" work out? One neighbor saw my earthboxes...they are ex-LDS...and have a huge indoor greenhouse...and said I can plant the seedlings in the winter to give them the best start.I do appreciate all your help...and the maters DO taste great! And next year I think I want to get a few more earthboxes...pretty much fill that upstairs deck so maybe 8 in total...and used the raised bed for herbs and such like that.

I don't have a clue about potatoes but your project was interesting; the results kind of funny. Idaho potato failure. I'd guess the Giant Valentine caught the BER, right? Heart shapes are meaty like pastes and prone to the condition. Big hearts are also sometimes difficult to grow successfully (though the one you chose is reportedly productive). Traveler is an heirloom. A common tasty smaller one, but still nothing like Big Girl and Jetsetter for production. Those two are the type everyone should stick in the ground just in case the fancier ones fail. I know I read somewhere about a significant crop failure in 09 Big Girl, btw. Your hybrid has set a half dozen fruit that are about a quarter size and have a full 6 weeks to maturity before I can harvest seed. They'll be the last of the hybrids to be saved, so I'll have everyone's crosses stored by early September. Talk about failures. I was convinced based on bogus reports online that Super Sioux was the hot dry climate, wonder heirloom for my future desert growing plans. Terrible. They cracked before any others, tasted sour, were less heat tolerant than just about all other varieties. The project is an abject failure. I have 22 varieties crossed with this garbage to grow out next year and I think it will be a waste of time. I've already decided just one of each and hope for the best. But you always learn. Carmello, Dona, Eva Purple Ball, Porter's Dark Cherry, and Florida Pink all look like winners to me.

 

[BringItOn]

I have good news and bad news. Good news, I have two nice size green peppers and a boatload more tiny ones but at least they are finally producing fruit.

The bad news is the yellow/dying leaf problem I had with my tomatoes low has moved up the stem. Some are dead halfway up the plant. I don't see any critters. Just dying leaves. I'm getting good fruit from all of them where the leaves are not dead. I've had this a little down low on my plants but nothing like this. Is it a disease? Sorry, no pics...

Are there any kind of brown spots on the leaves before they turn? I have this on one of my plants this year, and had it on several last season.. I think it is called Septoria leaf spot.. now that I think I found what it is, I may be able to try to control it.Leaf Spot

 

[E Street Brat]

Siff, there's a 2-5 year learning curve on a project like yours and you're easily on the two year track. You'll get better results every year you stick with it for the first few years until you finally get comfortable growing.

My number one lesson learned this year. DRAINAGE!!!!!!! Plan ahead for the rainy season.

 

[TheFanatic]

I have good news and bad news. Good news, I have two nice size green peppers and a boatload more tiny ones but at least they are finally producing fruit.

The bad news is the yellow/dying leaf problem I had with my tomatoes low has moved up the stem. Some are dead halfway up the plant. I don't see any critters. Just dying leaves. I'm getting good fruit from all of them where the leaves are not dead. I've had this a little down low on my plants but nothing like this. Is it a disease? Sorry, no pics...

Are there any kind of brown spots on the leaves before they turn? I have this on one of my plants this year, and had it on several last season.. I think it is called Septoria leaf spot.. now that I think I found what it is, I may be able to try to control it.Leaf Spot

I think that is what I have. How do I control it?

 

[TheFanatic]

I have good news and bad news. Good news, I have two nice size green peppers and a boatload more tiny ones but at least they are finally producing fruit.

The bad news is the yellow/dying leaf problem I had with my tomatoes low has moved up the stem. Some are dead halfway up the plant. I don't see any critters. Just dying leaves. I'm getting good fruit from all of them where the leaves are not dead. I've had this a little down low on my plants but nothing like this. Is it a disease? Sorry, no pics...

Are there any kind of brown spots on the leaves before they turn? I have this on one of my plants this year, and had it on several last season.. I think it is called Septoria leaf spot.. now that I think I found what it is, I may be able to try to control it.Leaf Spot

I think that is what I have. How do I control it?

Recommendations: Sanitation measures in the fall will reduce the amount of inoculum available for infection the following year. In the fall, tomato plots should be deep-plowed to bury tomato debris, or dead plants should be removed from the garden and destroyed. Avoid planting tomatoes in the same area of the garden year after year. Clean seed and healthy transplants in the spring also will help control the disease. Both diseases can be controlled effectively with fungicides. Chlorothalonil is effective and has a 0 day waiting period from application to harvest. Products that contain chlorothalonil include but are not limited to Fertilome Broad Spectrum Fungicide, Ortho Garden Disease Control, GardenTech Garden Disease Control, and PBI Gordon Multipurpose Fungicide. For best results, applications should begin as soon as the symptoms first become apparent, generally, around the time of the first blossom set. Applications should be made every 7 to 10 days. Severely infested plants may not be able to be rescued with fungicides.

I have planted in the same spot the last 3 years. So is this going to get worse next year? I have a trestle built on this spot anchored about a foot deep. Or should I just expect this next year and start treatment right away?

 

[saintfool]

planted some zuchini about a month ago on a lark. they seem to be doing just fine. nothing to see but nice healthy-looking plants. i also planted some forget-me-nots and they haven't shown yet. i guess i put the seeds too deep?

 

[Chaos Commish]

I have good news and bad news. Good news, I have two nice size green peppers and a boatload more tiny ones but at least they are finally producing fruit.

The bad news is the yellow/dying leaf problem I had with my tomatoes low has moved up the stem. Some are dead halfway up the plant. I don't see any critters. Just dying leaves. I'm getting good fruit from all of them where the leaves are not dead. I've had this a little down low on my plants but nothing like this. Is it a disease? Sorry, no pics...

Are there any kind of brown spots on the leaves before they turn? I have this on one of my plants this year, and had it on several last season.. I think it is called Septoria leaf spot.. now that I think I found what it is, I may be able to try to control it.Leaf Spot

I think that is what I have. How do I control it?

Recommendations: Sanitation measures in the fall will reduce the amount of inoculum available for infection the following year. In the fall, tomato plots should be deep-plowed to bury tomato debris, or dead plants should be removed from the garden and destroyed. Avoid planting tomatoes in the same area of the garden year after year. Clean seed and healthy transplants in the spring also will help control the disease. Both diseases can be controlled effectively with fungicides. is effective and has a 0 day waiting period from application to harvest. Products that contain chlorothalonil include but are not limited to Fertilome Broad Spectrum Fungicide, Ortho Garden Disease Control, GardenTech Garden Disease Control, and PBI Gordon Multipurpose Fungicide. For best results, applications should begin as soon as the symptoms first become apparent, generally, around the time of the first blossom set. Applications should be made every 7 to 10 days. Severely infested plants may not be able to be rescued with fungicides.

I have planted in the same spot the last 3 years. So is this going to get worse next year? I have a trestle built on this spot anchored about a foot deep. Or should I just expect this next year and start treatment right away?

Septoria leaf spot is "sort of" the same thing as early blight in that I said it was bound to come sooner or later. I don't fret about either much, but my dry condtions keep it at bay. Several practices covered below will help prevent it in the future. For now, remove the infected leaves and branches as long as it doesn't strip the plant too bare. Then if you're not all organic and worried about such stuff use the Ortho or Daconil, both available everywhere, both featuring Chlorothalonil as the active ingredient, the Ortho a little broader spectrum control. It's a very simple effective product that coats the healthy leaves and stems to keep the fungal spores from finding new homes. That's all it is -- a coating, so it must be reapplied after rain or overhead watering and it must be applied thoroughly, until the plant is pretty much dripping. The $7 premixed bottles cover 2 good sized plants, the $14 concentrate that makes several gallons is the way to go so you have plenty for future applications when necessary. Many in the south just spray every two weeks whether they need to or not. It is solid prevention and harmless to the fruit or soil, and anyone eating either. There are organic treatments, but google them yourself if this product worries you. It doesn't worry me. My plants got one shot of it early in the year, but then I have little humidity and rain so it isn't as big an issue here as elsewhere.

Fanatic, I think you do a nice job and are fine planting in the same spot year after year the way you amend the soil. Rotation is for farmers with the acreage to do it and without the cost effective ability to rejuvenate and monitor a small space like yours. One of the best growers in the country grows in humid conditions on the same piece of land every year. Land that has grown tomatoes annually without a break since the late 1800s. Septoria and Alternaria spores probably exist in any soil you would move to anyway. Some years are worse than others and this is a bad one, but next year could be great.

The best way to prevent it is to understand how it works. It over winters in the soil and grows when the soil warms. It is a fungus thus procreates via spores. Those spores have to find a host. They either need the leaves to touch the soil or the soil to be splashed up to the leaves. This is a great reason to prune the bottom of the plant and keep it off the soil. And this also why you do not want to spray the soil when you water. Overhead sprinklers don't splash the soil up but that type of watering helps spread the condition by creating a perfect environment for it to grow. Wet leaves are bad in humid climates and cannot always be avoided, but should be minimized.

Probably the best preventative is mulch. A thin layer of cornmeal below the mulch and on top of the soil gets good reviews. A good four inches of straw keeps the spores off the plants better than anything else. The ideal set up would use drip irrigation under the mulch so it also doesn't get wet on top. At the end of a season remove the plants and all debris from the area. This is a great time for a thick topping of straight manure to overwinter into the soil btw. Keeps the worms multiplying and happy too. Buries the spores and cooks them a little as the manure composts.