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NAACP Calls For NFL's Jack Del Rio To Be Fired/Resign After J6 Comments (6/10/22 03:12 PST) (1 Viewer)

Boston

Footballguy
I think all of us are going to be watching for this and seeing how it plays out, because we all know it's only a matter of time.  What JDR said was kind of dumb IMO, but people say similarly-dumb things in the other direction all the time.  

The reason why this story is is troubling is because it isn't like JDR used a slur, told a sexist joke, disrespected the national anthem, or anything like that.  This seems like a nice, clean example of punishing someone for wrongthink.  To be clear, Del Rio really is wrong, but wrong about a political issue shouldn't have any professional consequences.  Everyone posting in this forum, me included, is wrong about lots of stuff, after all.


What exactly was he specifically fined for?  Is it there can be no criticism of the BLM riots or that he does not take J6 as seriously as he should?  I would love to see the team and/or the league's HR policy with regard to why he was actually fined. 

 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
The reason why this story is is troubling is because it isn't like JDR used a slur, told a sexist joke, disrespected the national anthem, or anything like that.  This seems like a nice, clean example of punishing someone for wrongthink.  To be clear, Del Rio really is wrong, but being wrong about a political issue shouldn't have any professional consequences.  Everyone posting in this forum, me included, is wrong about lots of stuff, after all.
It's only "troubling" if you believe it sets some sort of precedent. Like if Eric Bienemy was speaking to the press tomorrow and voiced his support of BLM, Andy Reid would feel compelled to fine him based on the "Del Rio Doctrine". But of course that's ridiculous. Reid, like Rivera, can do whatever the hell he wants. He can not fine him because he agrees with him, or because he has no problem with his assistants speaking their minds, or because he judged that those comments wouldn't be a distraction to the team. (The situation would be slightly different if this were a player, since they're unionized and there are rules regarding team discipline. But assistant coaches have no such protections.)

It's also worth pointing out that we have no idea if there's a backstory to Del Rio, nor is the team obligated to tell us if there is. Maybe Rivera had told his assistants, or Del Rio in particular, to stay away from politics, and the fine was less about the content of his remarks and more about disobeying a direct order. 

 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
What exactly was he specifically fined for?  Is it there can be no criticism of the BLM riots or that he does not take J6 as seriously as he should?  I would love to see the team and/or the league's HR policy with regard to why he was actually fined. 
We don't know the answer and my guess is that we'll never find out, since I doubt the team wants to dwell on this. It's an internal team matter with a non-unionized employee. 

 

matttyl

Footballguy
I consider having your career ended prematurely to be worse than keeping your job and getting fined $100K, but YMMV.  :shrug:
Technically, he ended his own career.  He opted out of his contract.  Maybe he would have been cut/released had he not, but he choose to opt out and to not then sign a contract offered to him (even if a low one).  

 

massraider

Footballguy
I think Rivera is trying to save some credibility within the team, but there's no excuse for that fine. Del Rio should appeal, but would probably just lose his job

 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
Not really.  Nobody should be punished for having the wrong opinions about stuff in the news.  Even if it's only one person.
Just so I'm clear, the principle you're articulating is that it's always bad for private employers to punish employees for the content of their speech? To take an extreme example, if Trump's 2024 campaign manager expressed his opinion that January 6 was an attempt to overthrow our democracy (or vice versa with Biden's campaign manager), it would be troubling for them to lose their jobs over having the "wrong opinions"? What if JDR had gone much further and expressed open admiration for Hitler or Stalin or John Tesh?

I suspect you don't believe those extreme examples, and what you're really saying is that, while you think his comments were dumb, you don't think they were so far beyond the pale that they deserve to be punished based on content alone. (To take an example at the other extreme, if Del Rio were fined simply for saying he voted for Trump, I would certainly agree that would be taking things way too far).

But ultimately, when you say that you're basically conceding its a judgment call on Rivera's part. He felt that, for whatever reasons, the comments deserved some sort of punishment (another reminder that none of us knows the backstory behind Del Rio's comments; there may be other factors Rivera took into consideration.) You are certainly free to disagree with the call he made, but I don't see how you can question whether he has the right to make it.

 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly said:
Just so I'm clear, the principle you're articulating is that it's always bad for private employers to punish employees for the content of their speech?
Generally, yeah.

To take an extreme example, if Trump's 2024 campaign manager expressed his opinion that January 6 was an attempt to overthrow our democracy (or vice versa with Biden's campaign manager), it would be troubling for them to lose their jobs over having the "wrong opinions"?
No.  "Agreeing with the candidate" is a bona fide job qualification for people who work on political campaigns.  It would be fine to fire somebody in this example.

Similarly, it would be fine for a church to fire a pastor who preached that Jesus's body lies buried in an undiscovered tomb somewhere.  Certain jobs require espousing particular views.  That's fine.  Those jobs are also fairly uncommon.

(While I think it would be okay to fire a pastor who denied the resurrection, it would not be okay to fire the exact same pastor for arguing against the use of the Tampa-2 defense.  On a closely-related note, I would be totally okay with firing a defensive coordinator who espoused the wrong opinions about defensive coverages, but not okay with firing that exact same DC over his political opinions.  It needs to be clearly and unambiguously job-related for this exception to apply.) 

What if JDR had gone much further and expressed open admiration for Hitler or Stalin or John Tesh?
I honestly don't care, but I'll concede that "Hitler was a pretty swell guy" lies so far outside the mainstream that I would have a hard time faulting an employer for stepping in here.  I grant that that's a problematic edge case.

The thing that Del Rio said is comparatively unobjectionable though.  He's wrong, but he's wrong within completely normal parameters.

I suspect you don't believe those extreme examples, and what you're really saying is that, while you think his comments were dumb, you don't think they were so far beyond the pale that they deserve to be punished based on content alone. (To take an example at the other extreme, if Del Rio were fined simply for saying he voted for Trump, I would certainly agree that would be taking things way too far).

But ultimately, when you say that you're basically conceding its a judgment call on Rivera's part. He felt that, for whatever reasons, the comments deserved some sort of punishment (another reminder that none of us knows the backstory behind Del Rio's comments; there may be other factors Rivera took into consideration.) You are certainly free to disagree with the call he made, but I don't see how you can question whether he has the right to make it.
Oh, this is where you were going.  Yeah I definitely agree that it was Del Rio's call to make and I don't question his right to make it.  I'm saying he made the wrong call and should be criticized appropriately.

 
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massraider

Footballguy
Generally, yeah.

No.  "Agreeing with the candidate" is a bona fide job qualification for people who work on political campaigns.  It would be fine to fire somebody in this example.

Similarly, it would be fine for a church to fire a pastor who preached that Jesus's body lies buried in an undiscovered tomb somewhere.  Certain jobs require espousing particular views.  That's fine.  Those jobs are also fairly uncommon.

(While I think it would be okay to fire a pastor who denied the resurrection, it would not be okay to fire the exact same pastor for arguing against the use of the Tampa-2 defense.  On a closely-related note, I would be totally okay with firing a defensive coordinator who espoused the wrong opinions about defensive coverages, but not okay with firing that exact same DC over his political opinions.  It needs to be clearly and unambiguously job-related for this exception to apply.) 

I honestly don't care, but I'll concede that "Hitler was a pretty swell guy" lies so far outside the mainstream that I would have a hard time faulting an employer for stepping in here.  I grant that that's a problematic edge case.

The thing that Del Rio said is comparatively unobjectionable though.  He's wrong, but he's wrong within completely normal parameters.

Oh, this is where you were going.  Yeah I definitely agree that it was Del Rio's call to make and I don't question his right to make it.  I'm saying he made the wrong call and should be criticized appropriately.
I think that criticism shouldn't even extend much beyond: You coach a bunch of young black men. Maybe sit this one out. 

Del Rio getting fined here is silly

 

Shula-holic

Footballguy
squistion said:
Yes indeed, but only if he would take a pay cut and gave up something like $8 million that was guaranteed. If was a low ball offer and no one in their right mind would have taken it. 
It wasn’t like his performance or numbers had declined right?

 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
You show me another QB with that resume that that happened to. 
Trent Dilfer was let go immediately after winning the SB.  He bounced around the NFL after that, and Kaepernick might have done the same if he had been willing to be a backup.

What those two guys have in common is that pretty much everybody who watched each of them play understands that that they're not really championship-caliber QBs.  Yeah, they made it that level (winning in Baltimore's case), but that was because of the rest of the roster, not the QB.  

 

Ramblin Wreck

Footballguy
You show me another QB with that resume that that happened to. 

What weak sauce
His 2015 numbers were very similar to Johnny Manziel.  Then he went 1-10 in 2016.  Of course he was going to be asked to take a pay cut.  HIs completion percentage and yard/attempt were always meh.  So yeah, he was weak sauce

 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
You show me another QB with that resume that that happened to. 

What weak sauce
As a Washington fan, I watched a team that was 6-4 and in contention for a playoff spot when Alex Smith got hurt fritter it away with a 1-5 finish while trotting out the likes of Mark Sanches and Josh Johnson at QB. On that evidence alone, you will never be able to convince me Kaepernick wasn't blackballed.

 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
Oh, this is where you were going.  Yeah I definitely agree that it was Del Rio's call to make and I don't question his right to make it.  I'm saying he made the wrong call and should be criticized appropriately.
Assume you mean Rivera here. Anyway, the point I've been making is that sometimes people make judgment calls that you disagree with and all it means is that, if you had been making that decision, you would have done it differently. There's no broader lesson. It's just a bunch of stuff that happened.

 

massraider

Footballguy
Mariota wasn't the same athlete, never accomplished half of what Kaep did, and has been handed backup jobs and now, starting jobs in the NFL, but yeah, Kaep's play fell off.  :lmao:

Oh my Lord, make the argument that he wasn't good enough to deal with the distraction. I'll buy it, maybe I agree. He just wasn't good enough to secure even a backup position? LOL

 

djmich

Footballguy
Is this any different than what’s triggering all the concerns about Desantis’ approach with Disney

But by then, two Virginia state senators — Scott A. Surovell (D-Fairfax) and Jeremy S. McPike (D-Prince William) — said they could no longer support a bill authorizing a stadium authority and helping lure the team to Virginia. Surovell tweeted that the NFL’s “indifference & intolerance” to Del Rio’s comments reflects its “hypocrisy” and “makes clear to me that we won’t be seeing any more votes on stadium bills this year.”...A group of D.C. legislators said Thursday they would not support bringing the team to the District at the RFK Stadium site, and Virginia Senate Majority Leader Richard L. Saslaw (D-Fairfax) pulled the plug on the Commonwealth’s efforts, saying there would be no vote on a stadium bill this year....

 

djmich

Footballguy
Mariota wasn't the same athlete, never accomplished half of what Kaep did, and has been handed backup jobs and now, starting jobs in the NFL, but yeah, Kaep's play fell off.  :lmao:

Oh my Lord, make the argument that he wasn't good enough to deal with the distraction. I'll buy it, maybe I agree. He just wasn't good enough to secure even a backup position? LOL
Mariota was willing to be a backup, was Kaep?  At what point was he willing to be a backup.

I think he could have been a backup, not sure he was willing…and then the whole thing became a farce after he was out of the league for a while.  And for sure at that point the incremental benefit of adding him way outweighed the cost.

 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
Is this any different than what’s triggering all the concerns about Desantis’ approach with Disney

But by then, two Virginia state senators — Scott A. Surovell (D-Fairfax) and Jeremy S. McPike (D-Prince William) — said they could no longer support a bill authorizing a stadium authority and helping lure the team to Virginia. Surovell tweeted that the NFL’s “indifference & intolerance” to Del Rio’s comments reflects its “hypocrisy” and “makes clear to me that we won’t be seeing any more votes on stadium bills this year.”...A group of D.C. legislators said Thursday they would not support bringing the team to the District at the RFK Stadium site, and Virginia Senate Majority Leader Richard L. Saslaw (D-Fairfax) pulled the plug on the Commonwealth’s efforts, saying there would be no vote on a stadium bill this year....
Good catch.  I hadn't seen that part.  

For folks who are looking for a link, it's paywalled sorry: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/06/09/del-rio-naacp-resign/

 

dgreen

Footballguy
Yeah, even as a Commanders fan, I haven’t been fill this too closely. But I assumed it had to be related to the recent VA stadium vote. 
 

Maybe the fact that Washington won’t be able to get a new stadium site is what will finally get Snyder booted. 

 

Shula-holic

Footballguy
You show me another QB with that resume that that happened to. 

What weak sauce
I am a 49ers fan, he sucked at the end. When defenses adjusted to his running and forced him to be a pocket passer he was bad. It’s not hard to see. Before they adjusted he was really good. He never developed as a passer.
 

Take off the political goggles. He got offered a backup job, that’s what he was capable of. 

 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
Little Lord Fauntleroy Snyder?
Even a control freak like Snyder doesn't want to get into the business of having a formal appeals process whereby assistants could undermine his coach's authority. If he ever did that, I guarantee you Rivera would resign immediately, as would all 31 other HCs in the league if their owners did that to them

 
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BladeRunner

Footballguy
His 2015 numbers were very similar to Johnny Manziel.  Then he went 1-10 in 2016.  Of course he was going to be asked to take a pay cut.  HIs completion percentage and yard/attempt were always meh.  So yeah, he was weak sauce


Yep, just like all other running QBs, it eventually catches up with them and people see why they're running - it's because they can't pass.  It's a story that's as old as running QBs.

All these Defenders of KaepernickTM are thinking about the one time he ran all over the Packers during the NFC championship as if that is how he was continually performing EVERY game.  He wasn't. 

If I'm an NFL Team, I pay a QB to throw passes, not be a RB.  It always catches up with them.  Always.  And it did for Kaepernick.

 
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ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
Is this any different than what’s triggering all the concerns about Desantis’ approach with Disney

But by then, two Virginia state senators — Scott A. Surovell (D-Fairfax) and Jeremy S. McPike (D-Prince William) — said they could no longer support a bill authorizing a stadium authority and helping lure the team to Virginia. Surovell tweeted that the NFL’s “indifference & intolerance” to Del Rio’s comments reflects its “hypocrisy” and “makes clear to me that we won’t be seeing any more votes on stadium bills this year.”...A group of D.C. legislators said Thursday they would not support bringing the team to the District at the RFK Stadium site, and Virginia Senate Majority Leader Richard L. Saslaw (D-Fairfax) pulled the plug on the Commonwealth’s efforts, saying there would be no vote on a stadium bill this year....
I would argue there's a subtle difference between "We're going to use the power of the state to smack you down for expressing opinions" and "We don't like the way you handled this situation with an employee who said something we object to," but I nonetheless agree it's dumb for legislators to tie funding requests to speech in any way. Either the funding request makes sense on its merits or it doesn't.

The other thing I would say is that, after the year the Washington franchise has had, their inability to get what they want out of politicians is, shall we say, overdetermined. I mean, if you were a politician right now, would you want to tie your fate to Daniel Snyder? I wouldn't even want to be photographed next to the guy. (Hell, I'm not a politician and I still wouldn't want to be photographed next to him)

 

squistion

Footballguy
matttyl said:
Technically, he ended his own career.  He opted out of his contract.  Maybe he would have been cut/released had he not, but he choose to opt out and to not then sign a contract offered to him (even if a low one).  


Nope.

Correction once again for probably the 50th time. Kaepernick opted out of his contract because he was told by 49ers GM John Lynch that he would be cut if he didn't. He could not have remained with the team even if he wanted to (this is documented in Kaepernick thread with a link to a PFT article that quotes John Lynch saying that).

 

HellToupee

Footballguy
Nope.

Correction once again for probably the 50th time. Kaepernick opted out of his contract because he was told by 49ers GM John Lynch that he would be cut if he didn't. He could not have remained with the team even if he wanted to (this is documented in Kaepernick thread with a link to a PFT article that quotes John Lynch saying that).
Did he opt out of didn’t opt out? He either did or didn’t 

 

squistion

Footballguy
Did he opt out of didn’t opt out? He either did or didn’t 


He opted out because he had no other choice, as John Lynch told him: (see PFT article in Kaep thread) that if he didn't opt out, then they would cut him - so the end result would be exactly the same, he would no longer be with the team. 

 
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massraider

Footballguy
I am a 49ers fan, he sucked at the end. When defenses adjusted to his running and forced him to be a pocket passer he was bad. It’s not hard to see. Before they adjusted he was really good. He never developed as a passer.
 

Take off the political goggles. He got offered a backup job, that’s what he was capable of. 
Political goggles are what allow people to convince themselves he couldn't even get a camp invite because he wasn't good enough. 

Laughable

 

squistion

Footballguy
So yes , he did indeed opt out of his contract 


Because he had no other choice. Opting out sounds like exercising an option, but he couldn't have stayed with the 49ers if he really wanted to, but that was not the case. It is like if your boss says: 'You can either quit or be fired" - so yes, you did quit but if you didn't you still wouldn't have a job. 

And please don't delete a portion of my posts when you respond to them, because in this case you removed some context and changed the meaning of what I said.

 

FairWarning

Footballguy
I am a 49ers fan, he sucked at the end. When defenses adjusted to his running and forced him to be a pocket passer he was bad. It’s not hard to see. Before they adjusted he was really good. He never developed as a passer.
 

Take off the political goggles. He got offered a backup job, that’s what he was capable of. 
Which is common with qbs possessing his skill set.  The hits take a toll more on running qbs,   He exceeded expectations in the league.

 

Rich Conway

Footballguy
Is this any different than what’s triggering all the concerns about Desantis’ approach with Disney

But by then, two Virginia state senators — Scott A. Surovell (D-Fairfax) and Jeremy S. McPike (D-Prince William) — said they could no longer support a bill authorizing a stadium authority and helping lure the team to Virginia. Surovell tweeted that the NFL’s “indifference & intolerance” to Del Rio’s comments reflects its “hypocrisy” and “makes clear to me that we won’t be seeing any more votes on stadium bills this year.”...A group of D.C. legislators said Thursday they would not support bringing the team to the District at the RFK Stadium site, and Virginia Senate Majority Leader Richard L. Saslaw (D-Fairfax) pulled the plug on the Commonwealth’s efforts, saying there would be no vote on a stadium bill this year....
I feel like I'm missing some context here.  Virginia is (was?) trying to lure the Commanders to move?  Is that the piece I'm missing?

If that's the case, and this suddenly convinced politicians not to move forward, I agree that's ridiculous.

 

matttyl

Footballguy
Nope.

Correction once again for probably the 50th time. Kaepernick opted out of his contract because he was told by 49ers GM John Lynch that he would be cut if he didn't. He could not have remained with the team even if he wanted to (this is documented in Kaepernick thread with a link to a PFT article that quotes John Lynch saying that).
That doesn’t invalidate what I said.  In fact it reinforces it.  Kaep opted out of his contract.

 

squistion

Footballguy
That doesn’t invalidate what I said.  In fact it reinforces it.  Kaep opted out of his contract.


It is misleading because it suggests he had a choice and could have remained with the 49ers if he wanted to, except that was not the case. 

 

djmich

Footballguy
It is misleading because it suggests he had a choice and could have remained with the 49ers if he wanted to, except that was not the case. 
He could have been the starting QB for the Broncos but decided he wanted to take the risk and milk that last year left in his contract with the 49’ers.

Bad career decisions have repercussions.  In his case numerous bad decisions.

 

identikit

Footballguy
He could have been the starting QB for the Broncos but decided he wanted to take the risk and milk that last year left in his contract with the 49’ers.

Bad career decisions have repercussions.  In his case numerous bad decisions.


Not to mention the ones he made on the field

 

ignatiusjreilly

Footballguy
I don’t think Kaep was some amazing QB, and I don’t particularly care that he never got another shot in the league after he left the Niners. But the argument that his politics had nothing to do with that fact is an insult to all of our intelligence. I would also note that the Venn diagram of people who think that Kaep was the worst QB ev-ah and those who disagree with his politics is basically one  circle

 

squistion

Footballguy
He could have been the starting QB for the Broncos but decided he wanted to take the risk and milk that last year left in his contract with the 49’ers.

Bad career decisions have repercussions.  In his case numerous bad decisions.


As discussed numerous times, Denver made a low ball offer that required him to forfeit something like 6-8 million that was guaranteed and no one in their right mind would have accepted that deal.

 
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