*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (4 Viewers)

[TobiasFunke]

is Joey Crawford reffing tonite?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoF430XIAAA6A4T.jpg

Sigh.

I'm sure that's wrong. Not sure where you can check the exact numbers for refs, but LeBron has placed in 148 playoff games, not 118. Guessing he made up the rest of the numbers, too.

 

[Synthesizer]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

This class is still one of the deepest drafts at the top. If you don't think its that hot, its a combination of the media over hyping it along with unrealistic expectations for these guys. I don't know what people expect but a top 3 pick will alter the direction of some of these franchises.

What are the odds of anybody in this draft outperforming Love?

This draft has a ton of big, athletic, talented teenagers that were very impressive in the major conferences last year. 80% chance that one of the top 5 guys outperforms Love. About 50% that multiple guys outperform him.

 

[sporthenry]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

This class is still one of the deepest drafts at the top. If you don't think its that hot, its a combination of the media over hyping it along with unrealistic expectations for these guys. I don't know what people expect but a top 3 pick will alter the direction of some of these franchises.

What are the odds of anybody in this draft outperforming Love?

Maybe Parker or Randle... Maybe. Nobody else.

Considering Embiid might be the best guy in the draft. I think you might want to add him.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

It'd make sense for teams that actually have some other good players in place, like maybe Cleveland and Philly. If you're the Lakers or some other team that's pretty devoid of other talent it's a terrible idea. You'll basically be worse off than the TWolves, as your roster won't be appealing and you won't have any picks to address the talent shortage with - I doubt he resigns with you. Even if he stays it'll be a while before you can put any other quality guys with him. You're better off rolling the dice by keeping the pick, hoping to get a good young building block and that Love doesn't sign an extension this year so you have a shot at landing him as a free agent. If the Celtics could do it without giving up their top pick and Rondo it might work for them, but like was said earlier you're looking at being a 3-5 seed with no obvious path for improvement from there.

I was assuming he'd re-sign. Even if the team acquiring him has no other stars, we know from Love's history that he won't do anything to stop you from getting another nice lottery pick to build with the following year. But my comment was more directed at those are saying they'd rather pick a franchise guy in the draft - I'm not sure any of these guys are locks to be that good.

Not in the East.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

This class is still one of the deepest drafts at the top. If you don't think its that hot, its a combination of the media over hyping it along with unrealistic expectations for these guys. I don't know what people expect but a top 3 pick will alter the direction of some of these franchises.

What are the odds of anybody in this draft outperforming Love?

Maybe Parker or Randle... Maybe. Nobody else.

Considering Embiid might be the best guy in the draft. I think you might want to add him.

Bigs with preexisting injuries are a huge concern for me... While he may have a real high ceiling, he might also have the lowest floor amongst the top couple of prospects.

 

[sporthenry]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

This class is still one of the deepest drafts at the top. If you don't think its that hot, its a combination of the media over hyping it along with unrealistic expectations for these guys. I don't know what people expect but a top 3 pick will alter the direction of some of these franchises.

What are the odds of anybody in this draft outperforming Love?

Maybe Parker or Randle... Maybe. Nobody else.

Considering Embiid might be the best guy in the draft. I think you might want to add him.

Bigs with preexisting injuries are a huge concern for me... While he may have a real high ceiling, he might also have the lowest floor amongst the top couple of prospects.

Sure. Which is why Embiid will likely drop. NBA is a wing league and even if you like Embiid more than Parker/Wiggins, the difference isn't huge. And Embiid is the guy who can easily get you fired. But the question remains, who could be better than Love? Embiid could very well fit that if he is healthy although that is far from a certainty in today's environment.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Here are a few things im hoping for with tonight's lottery:

-76ers to get the #1 overall pick-I want to see wiggins with nerlens and mcw.

-Celtics to get a top 3 pick, entice the Love trade talks even more, get him away from LA.

-Jazz to get a good position to draft Parker. Be it 1-4. I think he will stick around there for the long haul if drafted by them, smaller market teams with star player.

I think the Magic will come out with the #1 overall pick though.

I was reading that if they get a top 3, it will be less likely of them to deal that for Love b/c of the star potential of the top 3 players.

Whoever wrote that is a moron. Love is a top 10 player with will barely be 26 when next season starts. You make that trade every day if you know he will resign.

Love has peaked and is (IMO) somewhere around the 15th best player in the league. I'd rather roll the dice that Wiggins or Parker is a top 5 player in the league for the next 15 years.

I'd love to see a list of the 14 guys you think are better than Love and why you think a 25 year old has hit his peak.

He's not exactly very athletic. So he relies on skills.... shooting, positioning, court vision, etc. He's already developed those really well. I don't see a lot of room for improvement in those areas. What parts of his game is he going to improve in order to reach a higher peak level?

All of those things? He's played what amounts to a little over 4 seasons in the NBA. Why can't his shooting get better? Shot selection? Court vision? Positioning? Just because he is good in those areas does not mean he can't get better. Hell, put a decent supporting cast around him and he'll start getting Larry Bird comparisons.

He essentially doubled his passing numbers this season over his previous years. Why has his passing suddenly peaked?

 

[Freelove]

It might never be easy to answer who ends up better than Love. Guy's one of the most polarizing figures in the game when it comes to rating his overall talent.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

This class is still one of the deepest drafts at the top. If you don't think its that hot, its a combination of the media over hyping it along with unrealistic expectations for these guys. I don't know what people expect but a top 3 pick will alter the direction of some of these franchises.

What are the odds of anybody in this draft outperforming Love?

Maybe Parker or Randle... Maybe. Nobody else.

Considering Embiid might be the best guy in the draft. I think you might want to add him.

Bigs with preexisting injuries are a huge concern for me... While he may have a real high ceiling, he might also have the lowest floor amongst the top couple of prospects.

Sure. Which is why Embiid will likely drop. NBA is a wing league and even if you like Embiid more than Parker/Wiggins, the difference isn't huge. And Embiid is the guy who can easily get you fired. But the question remains, who could be better than Love? Embiid could very well fit that if he is healthy although that is far from a certainty in today's environment.

Regardless, I still like Parker and Randle better, but this is obviously open for debate... Time will tell.

 

[sporthenry]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

It'd make sense for teams that actually have some other good players in place, like maybe Cleveland and Philly. If you're the Lakers or some other team that's pretty devoid of other talent it's a terrible idea. You'll basically be worse off than the TWolves, as your roster won't be appealing and you won't have any picks to address the talent shortage with - I doubt he resigns with you. Even if he stays it'll be a while before you can put any other quality guys with him. You're better off rolling the dice by keeping the pick, hoping to get a good young building block and that Love doesn't sign an extension this year so you have a shot at landing him as a free agent. If the Celtics could do it without giving up their top pick and Rondo it might work for them, but like was said earlier you're looking at being a 3-5 seed with no obvious path for improvement from there.

I was assuming he'd re-sign. Even if the team acquiring him has no other stars, we know from Love's history that he won't do anything to stop you from getting another nice lottery pick to build with the following year. But my comment was more directed at those are saying they'd rather pick a franchise guy in the draft - I'm not sure any of these guys are locks to be that good.

Well even assuming he resigns, we have to acknowledge that he is then taking up cap flexibility that any of these rookies wouldn't take up. Essentially, you are trading away a 19-20 year old with potential for a 25 year old who hasn't had a winning season and then signing him to a max deal. To answer will any of these guys be better than Love, I don't know. If anybody knew, we'd be in front offices but it is further complicated by the fact that while Kevin Love is a more known commodity, he is still somewhat of a question mark. What does Kevin Love look like on a contender? Can he be the #1 option in Boston with Rondo? Does he need another elite scorer?

And as Cliff mentions, adding Love in the East probably gets you out of the cellar. So even if you think he gets you another lottery pick, that pick is most likely out of the top 5. Rondo/Love is probably borderline playoff team. Even adding him to Philly probably gets you 30 wins. And if you are banking on Love still getting you a lottery pick, then any of these guys will likely net you a lottery pick next year as well. So you can take Wiggins/Parker/Embiid and still most likely get a top 5 pick next year or get Love and maybe get a top 5 pick next year. And what is better? We've seen OKC took a few years to come together so would you rather have 2-3 guys in their early 20's or one guy pushing 30 when you are starting to contend?

Now I'm probably downplaying Love's value as a known commodity but few of the teams at the top are likely to value this nearly as much as these teams seem willing to build from the ground up.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

I doubt it. Bosh only averages 11 and 4 against the Pacers. He'd have to drain a ton of 3s to have any impact and frankly I think he's due for a correction back to the mean there. Plus Indy is in his head big time.

More likely that Allen, Chalmers and Anderson matter a lot more. Mostly Chalmers and Allen.

If the Heat can't consistently hit a bunch of 3s, they're going to be in trouble all series. It's Indy's biggest weakness and what killed them the most in the first two rounds. Games where the Hawks and Wiz hit a ton of 3s the Pacers lost. Games where the 3s were limited the Pacers won. The same thing basically applied last year in the ECF. When Battier, Allen, Chalmers and Miller hit a bunch of 3s last year, the Heat won. When they didn't the Pacers won.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

I doubt it. Bosh only averages 11 and 4 against the Pacers. He'd have to drain a ton of 3s to have any impact and frankly I think he's due for a correction back to the mean there. Plus Indy is in his head big time.

More likely that Allen, Chalmers and Anderson matter a lot more. Mostly Chalmers and Allen.

If the Heat can't consistently hit a bunch of 3s, they're going to be in trouble all series. It's Indy's biggest weakness and what killed them the most in the first two rounds. Games where the Hawks and Wiz hit a ton of 3s the Pacers lost. Games where the 3s were limited the Pacers won. The same thing basically applied last year in the ECF. When Battier, Allen, Chalmers and Miller hit a bunch of 3s last year, the Heat won. When they didn't the Pacers won.

When Bosh hits his shots, he draws Hibbert away from the basket. Vogel doesn't change his game plan in game all that often, so healthy shooting from Bosh turns this game into a #### show.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

I doubt it. Bosh only averages 11 and 4 against the Pacers. He'd have to drain a ton of 3s to have any impact and frankly I think he's due for a correction back to the mean there. Plus Indy is in his head big time.

More likely that Allen, Chalmers and Anderson matter a lot more. Mostly Chalmers and Allen.

If the Heat can't consistently hit a bunch of 3s, they're going to be in trouble all series. It's Indy's biggest weakness and what killed them the most in the first two rounds. Games where the Hawks and Wiz hit a ton of 3s the Pacers lost. Games where the 3s were limited the Pacers won. The same thing basically applied last year in the ECF. When Battier, Allen, Chalmers and Miller hit a bunch of 3s last year, the Heat won. When they didn't the Pacers won.

He shot 0-5 from three and 4-12 overall in Game 1 after shooting 34% from 3 and 52% overall for the season. I don't think a correction is what you want.

The Pacers have been doing something right vs. him all year, though. Weak numbers in the 4 regular season matchups this year. Not sure what it is they're doing to him defensively but it's working.

I agree with fantasycurse though, I think he's the big story now that the Pacers are back on track defensively.

 

[Abraham]

CC knows things. The guy is by every offensive measurable one of the best players in the league and certainly one of the best at his position. The argument that he slacks on defense to get in position for rebounds may be valid, but 25/12/4 is really, really good. Put another way, if the teams in the lotto were told that the guy at the #1 spot was going to produce like that, they would be over the moon.

 

[Synthesizer]

Here are a few things im hoping for with tonight's lottery:

-76ers to get the #1 overall pick-I want to see wiggins with nerlens and mcw.

-Celtics to get a top 3 pick, entice the Love trade talks even more, get him away from LA.

-Jazz to get a good position to draft Parker. Be it 1-4. I think he will stick around there for the long haul if drafted by them, smaller market teams with star player.

I think the Magic will come out with the #1 overall pick though.

I was reading that if they get a top 3, it will be less likely of them to deal that for Love b/c of the star potential of the top 3 players.

Whoever wrote that is a moron. Love is a top 10 player with will barely be 26 when next season starts. You make that trade every day if you know he will resign.

Love has peaked and is (IMO) somewhere around the 15th best player in the league. I'd rather roll the dice that Wiggins or Parker is a top 5 player in the league for the next 15 years.

I'd love to see a list of the 14 guys you think are better than Love and why you think a 25 year old has hit his peak.

He's not exactly very athletic. So he relies on skills.... shooting, positioning, court vision, etc. He's already developed those really well. I don't see a lot of room for improvement in those areas. What parts of his game is he going to improve in order to reach a higher peak level?

All of those things? He's played what amounts to a little over 4 seasons in the NBA. Why can't his shooting get better? Shot selection? Court vision? Positioning? Just because he is good in those areas does not mean he can't get better. Hell, put a decent supporting cast around him and he'll start getting Larry Bird comparisons.

He essentially doubled his passing numbers this season over his previous years. Why has his passing suddenly peaked?

To be clear, I think he's already great in those areas. Not just good, but great. As for his assists, he upped them from 2.5 to 4.5 a game. IMO that's part of him peaking. In order to reach Bird levels, he would need to maintain his scoring average while taking his assists up to 6+ per game. I just don't see that happening.

 

[mjm3773]

can't wait to see what happens with Indy tomorrow.. Do they show up or just get rolled?

I bet at least one person in this thread has a strong opinion on this.

Miami will kick asssssssssssssssss tonight!

Who are you cheering for in the lottery? I'm hoping the kings end up with a spot that gets them Exum or Smart to pair with boogie or a slot that gets them Embid to put next to him.

Fun fact: despite plentiful opportunities, the Kings have never improved their draft position in the lottery.

Kings had the number 1 pick in 1989 but did not have the worst record the prior year. Was there something different about the lottery then?

The current lottery system began in 1994. Before that the odds weren't weighted I guess. So maybe my fun fact needs an asterisk.

It was weighted before then, it was just less weighted than now and its what caused the overhaul in the system.

Orlando won the lottery and took Shaq in 1992. During his rookie season, they failed to make the playoffs, but had the best record of any non-playoff team. At that point there were only 27 teams in the league, so 27-16= 11 teams in the lottery. What happened was a straight weighting system (the team with the worst record got 11 balls, the second worst got 10, etc. down to the best non-playoff team - Orlando - getting only one ball - which resulted in a 1 in 66 chance of winning the lottery.

Lo and behold, in 1993 that 1 in 66 chance turned up. Orlando won the lottery for the second straight year and took Penny Hardaway. Besides all of the Ewing-esque allegations of rigging, it was determined that that was to high of a chance for a "mediocre" team to get the top pick that the system was overhauled for 1994.

 

[Abraham]

Here are a few things im hoping for with tonight's lottery:

-76ers to get the #1 overall pick-I want to see wiggins with nerlens and mcw.

-Celtics to get a top 3 pick, entice the Love trade talks even more, get him away from LA.

-Jazz to get a good position to draft Parker. Be it 1-4. I think he will stick around there for the long haul if drafted by them, smaller market teams with star player.

I think the Magic will come out with the #1 overall pick though.

I was reading that if they get a top 3, it will be less likely of them to deal that for Love b/c of the star potential of the top 3 players.

Whoever wrote that is a moron. Love is a top 10 player with will barely be 26 when next season starts. You make that trade every day if you know he will resign.

Love has peaked and is (IMO) somewhere around the 15th best player in the league. I'd rather roll the dice that Wiggins or Parker is a top 5 player in the league for the next 15 years.

I'd love to see a list of the 14 guys you think are better than Love and why you think a 25 year old has hit his peak.

He's not exactly very athletic. So he relies on skills.... shooting, positioning, court vision, etc. He's already developed those really well. I don't see a lot of room for improvement in those areas. What parts of his game is he going to improve in order to reach a higher peak level?

All of those things? He's played what amounts to a little over 4 seasons in the NBA. Why can't his shooting get better? Shot selection? Court vision? Positioning? Just because he is good in those areas does not mean he can't get better. Hell, put a decent supporting cast around him and he'll start getting Larry Bird comparisons.

He essentially doubled his passing numbers this season over his previous years. Why has his passing suddenly peaked?

To be clear, I think he's already great in those areas. Not just good, but great. As for his assists, he upped them from 2.5 to 4.5 a game. IMO that's part of him peaking. In order to reach Bird levels, he would need to maintain his scoring average while taking his assists up to 6+ per game. I just don't see that happening.

I realize it isn't a comparison you put out there, but I'd like to note that if we see Love as overrated because he might not turn in to Larry frigging Bird then I agree, he's overrated.

 

[thecatch]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

It'd make sense for teams that actually have some other good players in place, like maybe Cleveland and Philly. If you're the Lakers or some other team that's pretty devoid of other talent it's a terrible idea. You'll basically be worse off than the TWolves, as your roster won't be appealing and you won't have any picks to address the talent shortage with - I doubt he resigns with you. Even if he stays it'll be a while before you can put any other quality guys with him. You're better off rolling the dice by keeping the pick, hoping to get a good young building block and that Love doesn't sign an extension this year so you have a shot at landing him as a free agent. If the Celtics could do it without giving up their top pick and Rondo it might work for them, but like was said earlier you're looking at being a 3-5 seed with no obvious path for improvement from there.

I was assuming he'd re-sign. Even if the team acquiring him has no other stars, we know from Love's history that he won't do anything to stop you from getting another nice lottery pick to build with the following year. But my comment was more directed at those are saying they'd rather pick a franchise guy in the draft - I'm not sure any of these guys are locks to be that good.

Well even assuming he resigns, we have to acknowledge that he is then taking up cap flexibility that any of these rookies wouldn't take up. Essentially, you are trading away a 19-20 year old with potential for a 25 year old who hasn't had a winning season and then signing him to a max deal. To answer will any of these guys be better than Love, I don't know. If anybody knew, we'd be in front offices but it is further complicated by the fact that while Kevin Love is a more known commodity, he is still somewhat of a question mark. What does Kevin Love look like on a contender? Can he be the #1 option in Boston with Rondo? Does he need another elite scorer?And as Cliff mentions, adding Love in the East probably gets you out of the cellar. So even if you think he gets you another lottery pick, that pick is most likely out of the top 5. Rondo/Love is probably borderline playoff team. Even adding him to Philly probably gets you 30 wins. And if you are banking on Love still getting you a lottery pick, then any of these guys will likely net you a lottery pick next year as well. So you can take Wiggins/Parker/Embiid and still most likely get a top 5 pick next year or get Love and maybe get a top 5 pick next year. And what is better? We've seen OKC took a few years to come together so would you rather have 2-3 guys in their early 20's or one guy pushing 30 when you are starting to contend?

Now I'm probably downplaying Love's value as a known commodity but few of the teams at the top are likely to value this nearly as much as these teams seem willing to build from the ground up.

These are fair points. But numerous teams are stuck in this lottery pick treadmill trying to recreate the OKC model, and it usually doesn't work because it's virtually impossible to land on 2-3 stars in the draft in consecutive years. If I were, for example, Boston, and I could talk Love into it, I'd rather put Rondo, Love, and say Deng on the floor next year and make a run at the playoffs as opposed to taking the risk that wiggins/Randall/Parker etc are future top 10 guys and that I can land another one either in FA or the 2015 lottery. (It'd be another matter if this looked like the second coming of the 2003 draft class, which it doesn't appear to me is the case).

 

[CurlyNight]

can't wait to see what happens with Indy tomorrow.. Do they show up or just get rolled?

I bet at least one person in this thread has a strong opinion on this.

Miami will kick asssssssssssssssss tonight!

Who are you cheering for in the lottery? I'm hoping the kings end up with a spot that gets them Exum or Smart to pair with boogie or a slot that gets them Embid to put next to him.

Uh sure. I don't follow the lottery/draft.

So you're not a lifelong Miami fan then?

Nope. Whatever team has the most players that I like as individuals gets my thumbs up. But I've been the Spurs fan since back when David Robinson was there (the twin towers). For Miami, since 2006 I believe it was when Shaq went there. Once my boys retire on each team, we'll see!

 

[Buck Bradcanon]

Fluff piece for the Spurs fans that check in here

 

[CurlyNight]

Fluff piece for the Spurs fans that check in here

lol at Duncan pulling TP's jersey away from the confrontation.

 

[Freelove]

He essentially doubled his passing numbers this season over his previous years. Why has his passing suddenly peaked?

Might have, might not have, but it would be hard to make the argument that the quality of his passing improved substantially this year. Much more the case of the roster being better suited to receiving assists.

Love's a great outlet passer, and always has been. But this is the first year he had Corey Brewer, who is recognized as one of the best in the game at getting out on outlets. And any big who isn't a total black hole benefits from having a decent spot up shooter to kick out to. Martin was a huge upgrade in that department this year. And not surprisingly, the huge majority of Love's assists were to exactly those two players.

There are better spot up shooters out there than Martin, but the only way that would help Love's dime #'s much was if it's a team with a guy who is the focal point of the offense. And if that's the case, Love's scoring certainly dips to compensate. And he's not going to be paired with anyone more prolific at sprinting upcourt than Brewer. Brewer ain't much -- but he's fast, and delights in cherry picking. He can be outdone in terms of quality, but probably not quantity.

None of that means he can't improve as an assist guy, but the part of the improvement that's credited to him is overstated by many. And it's hard to see where additional improvement comes from unless he's part of a radically different system with a non-traditional PG.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Here are a few things im hoping for with tonight's lottery:

-76ers to get the #1 overall pick-I want to see wiggins with nerlens and mcw.

-Celtics to get a top 3 pick, entice the Love trade talks even more, get him away from LA.

-Jazz to get a good position to draft Parker. Be it 1-4. I think he will stick around there for the long haul if drafted by them, smaller market teams with star player.

I think the Magic will come out with the #1 overall pick though.

I was reading that if they get a top 3, it will be less likely of them to deal that for Love b/c of the star potential of the top 3 players.

Whoever wrote that is a moron. Love is a top 10 player with will barely be 26 when next season starts. You make that trade every day if you know he will resign.

Love has peaked and is (IMO) somewhere around the 15th best player in the league. I'd rather roll the dice that Wiggins or Parker is a top 5 player in the league for the next 15 years.

I'd love to see a list of the 14 guys you think are better than Love and why you think a 25 year old has hit his peak.

He's not exactly very athletic. So he relies on skills.... shooting, positioning, court vision, etc. He's already developed those really well. I don't see a lot of room for improvement in those areas. What parts of his game is he going to improve in order to reach a higher peak level?

All of those things? He's played what amounts to a little over 4 seasons in the NBA. Why can't his shooting get better? Shot selection? Court vision? Positioning? Just because he is good in those areas does not mean he can't get better. Hell, put a decent supporting cast around him and he'll start getting Larry Bird comparisons.

He essentially doubled his passing numbers this season over his previous years. Why has his passing suddenly peaked?

To be clear, I think he's already great in those areas. Not just good, but great. As for his assists, he upped them from 2.5 to 4.5 a game. IMO that's part of him peaking. In order to reach Bird levels, he would need to maintain his scoring average while taking his assists up to 6+ per game. I just don't see that happening.

Well, he is already at Bird levels statistically (comparing Bird's best season vs Love this year). Bird passed more, Love rebounds more. Different style of players; I don't want to dwell on the comparison. Just that I'm sure the media will latch onto it once Love hits a big market and gets on a quality team.

I don't know why you have such a young player peaking. He isn't going to get dramatically better but there is no reason he cannot improve in all areas.

Again, look at the garbage he has had to play with in Minny. Put him on a good team and he could easily maintain his scoring by increased efficiency while also passing more.

 

[NutterButter]

I think Love is overrated as a franchise centerpiece but even I would deal a top pick this year for him. This class isn't looking nearly as hot as it did in the fall.

This class is still one of the deepest drafts at the top. If you don't think its that hot, its a combination of the media over hyping it along with unrealistic expectations for these guys. I don't know what people expect but a top 3 pick will alter the direction of some of these franchises.

What are the odds of anybody in this draft outperforming Love?

That's a bad comparison b/c we're not just comparing Love to the draftee b/c they'll be making astronomically different salaries. A top 3 guy will be making ~4M/year while Love will be making probably around 16M.

 

[pizzatyme]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

Well, now we're screwed! Just for the record, how did you feel Bosh's shooting would be for game 1? I suspect you thought he'd shoot it well then too. No?

 

[fantasycurse42]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

Well, now we're screwed! Just for the record, how did you feel Bosh's shooting would be for game 1? I suspect you thought he'd shoot it well then too. No?

As much as I hate Miami, & I really do with a passion... You almost make me want to root for them, almost...

 

[fantasycurse42]

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/

Spurs now the favorites to win the title... Interesting.

 

[TobiasFunke]

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/

Spurs now the favorites to win the title... Interesting.

Makes perfect sense. I can't look at that site at work (thanks Obama!) but I'm guessing the Spurs are now a much heavier favorite to win their series than the Heat with the Game 1 results and the Ibaka injury Guessing Spurs -300 and Heat maybe -170 or something? That plus the emerging possibility that they'll play the Pacers instead of the Heat in the Finals makes the Spurs the clear favorite IMO.

 

[Ghost Rider]

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/

Spurs now the favorites to win the title... Interesting.

I thought they should have been for a while now. They have been the best team for most of the season, they have home court, and they have that "team on a mission" look about them in their attempt to right what they see as last year's wrong (blowing Game 6). They've been my pick to win it all for months. My theory on the Heat/Thunder/Spurs dynamic was: the Thunder usually get the best of the Spurs, but the Spurs would be way more likely to beat the Heat. However, with Ibaka now out, I can't see the Thunder beating them. If by some crazy miracle the Pacers oust the Heat, they'll go down in 5 or 6 to the Spurs or Thunder, and will never really be in a position where anybody thinks they will win the series.

 

[fantasycurse42]

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/

Spurs now the favorites to win the title... Interesting.

Makes perfect sense. I can't look at that site at work (thanks Obama!) but I'm guessing the Spurs are now a much heavier favorite to win their series than the Heat with the Game 1 results and the Ibaka injury Guessing Spurs -300 and Heat maybe -170 or something? That plus the emerging possibility that they'll play the Pacers instead of the Heat in the Finals makes the Spurs the clear favorite IMO.

Here are current... SAS almost even money.

San Antonio Spurs 11/10 Miami Heat 9/5 Indiana Pacers 15/2 Oklahoma City Thunder 8/1

 

[pizzatyme]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

Well, now we're screwed! Just for the record, how did you feel Bosh's shooting would be for game 1? I suspect you thought he'd shoot it well then too. No?

As much as I hate Miami, & I really do with a passion... You almost make me want to root for them, almost...

Don't do me any favors. You're like the Timschochet of the NBA thread. You claim your indifference to the Heat all while wearing your #6 headband and pjs.

 

[TobiasFunke]

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/

Spurs now the favorites to win the title... Interesting.

I thought they should have been for a while now. They have been the best team for most of the season, they have home court, and they have that "team on a mission" look about them in their attempt to right what they see as last year's wrong (blowing Game 6). They've been my pick to win it all for months. My theory on the Heat/Thunder/Spurs dynamic was: the Thunder usually get the best of the Spurs, but the Spurs would be way more likely to beat the Heat. However, with Ibaka now out, I can't see the Thunder beating them. If by some crazy miracle the Pacers oust the Heat, they'll go down in 5 or 6 to the Spurs or Thunder, and will never really be in a position where anybody thinks they will win the series.

They were probably always Vegas' top team, i.e. favored in head to head matchups over everyone except maybe the Heat. The brackets are what kept them from being the favorites to win the title. With a 1-0 lead in the Western finals coming off a dominating wire to wire win and Ibaka out that's no longer the case.

Kind of a shame, really. I was hoping the Heat would roll and the Spurs would win it in 6 or 7 to jack up their odds for the Finals. I was ready to throw a ton of money on an underdog Spurs team in the Finals.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

Well, now we're screwed! Just for the record, how did you feel Bosh's shooting would be for game 1? I suspect you thought he'd shoot it well then too. No?

As much as I hate Miami, & I really do with a passion... You almost make me want to root for them, almost...

Don't do me any favors. You're like the Timschochet of the NBA thread. You claim your indifference to the Heat all while wearing your #6 headband and pjs.

Do you have someone typing out your messages and not reading what anyone else is writing?

I absolutely hate Lebron and Miami, but to not acknowledge them as the best / 2x defending champs / team to beat, well that individual plays the fool.

ETA: I think SAS can beat them, but nonetheless Miami wears the bullseye...

 

[Cliff Clavin]

He essentially doubled his passing numbers this season over his previous years. Why has his passing suddenly peaked?

Might have, might not have, but it would be hard to make the argument that the quality of his passing improved substantially this year. Much more the case of the roster being better suited to receiving assists.

Love's a great outlet passer, and always has been. But this is the first year he had Corey Brewer, who is recognized as one of the best in the game at getting out on outlets. And any big who isn't a total black hole benefits from having a decent spot up shooter to kick out to. Martin was a huge upgrade in that department this year. And not surprisingly, the huge majority of Love's assists were to exactly those two players.

There are better spot up shooters out there than Martin, but the only way that would help Love's dime #'s much was if it's a team with a guy who is the focal point of the offense. And if that's the case, Love's scoring certainly dips to compensate. And he's not going to be paired with anyone more prolific at sprinting upcourt than Brewer. Brewer ain't much -- but he's fast, and delights in cherry picking. He can be outdone in terms of quality, but probably not quantity.

None of that means he can't improve as an assist guy, but the part of the improvement that's credited to him is overstated by many. And it's hard to see where additional improvement comes from unless he's part of a radically different system with a non-traditional PG.

Spin it anyway you like. You're using Brewer and Martin as players who made Love better. Now imagine either of those guys were good

For every deep outlet to Brewer, he'd brick a 3.

Overall, Minny was still a terrible shooting team. 23rd in 2's and 26th 3's. Take Love's shooting out of there and they're damn near dead last. If anything, we're going to see a bigger jump in his assist totals once he gets on a competent team.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I'd just like to point out how incredibly wrong I was about Love. Thought the doughy, un-athletic big man was going to be a huge bust.

 

[GroveDiesel]

If Indy plays like they are now, I think they actually matchup well against the Spurs.

I don't think the Pacers would really have a solution for Parker, but I also think the Spurs would have a hard time defending George and Stephenson.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I'd just like to point out how incredibly wrong I was about Love. Thought the doughy, un-athletic big man was going to be a huge bust.

LBJ

Durant

CP3

Steph Curry

John Wall

Paul George

I'd put Love somewhere after George and near Melo/Blake Griffin if I was drafting a team.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I'd just like to point out how incredibly wrong I was about Love. Thought the doughy, un-athletic big man was going to be a huge bust.

LBJ

Durant

CP3

Steph Curry

John Wall

Paul George

I'd put Love somewhere after George and near Melo/Blake Griffin if I was drafting a team.

I wish, but no. The decisionmaking and the jumper are still a year or two away.

 

[pizzatyme]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

Well, now we're screwed! Just for the record, how did you feel Bosh's shooting would be for game 1? I suspect you thought he'd shoot it well then too. No?

As much as I hate Miami, & I really do with a passion... You almost make me want to root for them, almost...

Don't do me any favors. You're like the Timschochet of the NBA thread. You claim your indifference to the Heat all while wearing your #6 headband and pjs.

Do you have someone typing out your messages and not reading what anyone else is writing?I absolutely hate Lebron and Miami, but to not acknowledge them as the best / 2x defending champs / team to beat, well that individual plays the fool.

ETA: I think SAS can beat them, but nonetheless Miami wears the bullseye...

Team to beat? YesClearly better than the Pacers? (as some have suggested) Nope

 

[Freelove]

He essentially doubled his passing numbers this season over his previous years. Why has his passing suddenly peaked?

Might have, might not have, but it would be hard to make the argument that the quality of his passing improved substantially this year. Much more the case of the roster being better suited to receiving assists.

Love's a great outlet passer, and always has been. But this is the first year he had Corey Brewer, who is recognized as one of the best in the game at getting out on outlets. And any big who isn't a total black hole benefits from having a decent spot up shooter to kick out to. Martin was a huge upgrade in that department this year. And not surprisingly, the huge majority of Love's assists were to exactly those two players.

There are better spot up shooters out there than Martin, but the only way that would help Love's dime #'s much was if it's a team with a guy who is the focal point of the offense. And if that's the case, Love's scoring certainly dips to compensate. And he's not going to be paired with anyone more prolific at sprinting upcourt than Brewer. Brewer ain't much -- but he's fast, and delights in cherry picking. He can be outdone in terms of quality, but probably not quantity.

None of that means he can't improve as an assist guy, but the part of the improvement that's credited to him is overstated by many. And it's hard to see where additional improvement comes from unless he's part of a radically different system with a non-traditional PG.

Spin it anyway you like. You're using Brewer and Martin as players who made Love better. Now imagine either of those guys were good

For every deep outlet to Brewer, he'd brick a 3.

Overall, Minny was still a terrible shooting team. 23rd in 2's and 26th 3's. Take Love's shooting out of there and they're damn near dead last. If anything, we're going to see a bigger jump in his assist totals once he gets on a competent team.

It's not spin. The bumps in raw numbers those two guys gave Love's assists over their counterparts from the year before more than account for his improved assist totals. It wasn't improved passing. It was improved circumstance, as proven by the fact that his assist totals to Peko were more than embarrassing.

You wanted to know what evidence there might be that his passing has peaked. I gave you plenty. If you didn't want that evidence, and just wanted to be a rah-rah fanboy, you shouldn't have asked for it.

 

[fantasycurse42]

I'd just like to point out how incredibly wrong I was about Love. Thought the doughy, un-athletic big man was going to be a huge bust.

LBJ

Durant

CP3

Steph Curry

John Wall

Paul George

I'd put Love somewhere after George and near Melo/Blake Griffin if I was drafting a team.

I wish, but no. The decisionmaking and the jumper are still a year or two away.

He is almost there... You can see it. On the brink of superstardom. If I was a GM, I'm taking him over anyone except the guys I listed next to him. I'm sure others have different lists or opinions, but this is mine.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Team to beat? Yes
Clearly better than the Pacers? (as some have suggested) Nope

I'm officially rooting for the Heat... I hope they win in Indy in game 7 too.

I think SAS can beat them, and as long as they don't win the title, I'm happy.

 

[Timmay]

Interested to see what Bosh does... Outside of Lebron, I think he is most important tonight. Have a feeling he'll be shooting well.

Well, now we're screwed! Just for the record, how did you feel Bosh's shooting would be for game 1? I suspect you thought he'd shoot it well then too. No?

As much as I hate Miami, & I really do with a passion... You almost make me want to root for them, almost...

Don't do me any favors. You're like the Timschochet ofthe NBA thread. You claim your indifference to the Heat all while wearing your #6 headband and pjs.

Do you have someone typing out your messages and not reading what anyone else is writing?I absolutely hate Lebron and Miami, but to not acknowledge them as the best / 2x defending champs / team to beat, well that individual plays the fool.

ETA: I think SAS can beat them, but nonetheless Miami wears the bullseye...

Team to beat? YesClearly better than the Pacers? (as some have suggested) Nope

I'm officially rooting for the Heat... I think SAS can beat them.

I'd just like to point out how incredibly wrong I was about Love. Thought the doughy, un-athletic big man was going to be a huge bust.

LBJ

Durant

CP3

Steph Curry

John Wall

Paul George

I'd put Love somewhere after George and near Melo/Blake Griffin if I was drafting a team.

I wish, but no. The decisionmaking and the jumper are still a year or two away.

He is almost there... You can see it. On the brink of superstardom. If I was a GM, I'm taking him over anyone except the guys I listed next to him. I'm sure others have different lists or opinions, but this is mine.

As far as PG's go behind CP3 and Curry. I would rather have Lillard over Wall if I was building a franchise.

And im a UK fan, so my opinion of Wall is pretty high.

 

[fantasycurse42]

As far as PG's go behind CP3 and Curry. I would rather have Lillard over Wall if I was building a franchise.

And im a UK fan, so my opinion of Wall is pretty high.

I didn't like him that much coming from UK, but he is blossoming into something very special.

 

[pizzatyme]

Team to beat? Yes

Clearly better than the Pacers? (as some have suggested) Nope

I'm officially rooting for the Heat... I hope they win in Indy in game 7 too.

I think SAS can beat them, and as long as they don't win the title, I'm happy.

I, for one, am shocked that you're 'NOW' rooting for the Heat. About as shocked as I was when Boy George came out of the closet.

 

[Freelove]

An interesting thing about Corey Brewer is that his level of conditioning allowed Adelman to use Love in a way he couldn't before.

After Allen Iverson, Brewer may have been the most willing over-and-over-again sprinter I've ever seen on a BBall court. This meant that on long shots, he released a lot earlier than is usually considered advantageous, with the understanding that if the offense gathered the board, he'd use his near league-best conditioning to get back and D up from two thirds of the way down the court, in a way that would leave most players gassed and useless, but still left him mostly ok.

That allowed Love to pull his usual tactic of abandoning his defensive assignments to position for rebounds, while simultaneously limiting the damage done because they scored more points per defensive rebound due to the sheer efficiency of the Love-Brewer long distance hookups. It was as if 40% of the Wolves' D was given the go-ahead to play Westhead/LMU ball on defense, since one of them was fast and determined enough to get back when it went teats up.

That combo almost single handedly accounted for the bump we saw in Love's defensive efficiency ratings this year. He didn't get better at defense, either. But he got craftier with using the limited defensive tools he had at his disposal, and Adelman was good enough a coach to find a workable gameplan to counteract his deficiencies.

Naturally, it was still an uphill battle, since as Tyson Chandler was happy to point out, you can always, "Go at him. He can't play D." But Brewer and what he offered Love that he didn't have before had a lot to do with why the Wolves were an "also ran" this year instead of a "didn't even bother to run" for a change.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Team to beat? Yes

Clearly better than the Pacers? (as some have suggested) Nope

I'm officially rooting for the Heat... I hope they win in Indy in game 7 too.

I think SAS can beat them, and as long as they don't win the title, I'm happy.

I, for one, am shocked that you're 'NOW' rooting for the Heat. About as shocked as I was when Boy George came out of the closet.

Lets make this interesting... Wager?

ETA: I can't... I just can't bet the Heat... Feels like such easy money, but I just hate them so much!

 

[Cliff Clavin]

He essentially doubled his passing numbers this season over his previous years. Why has his passing suddenly peaked?

Might have, might not have, but it would be hard to make the argument that the quality of his passing improved substantially this year. Much more the case of the roster being better suited to receiving assists.

Love's a great outlet passer, and always has been. But this is the first year he had Corey Brewer, who is recognized as one of the best in the game at getting out on outlets. And any big who isn't a total black hole benefits from having a decent spot up shooter to kick out to. Martin was a huge upgrade in that department this year. And not surprisingly, the huge majority of Love's assists were to exactly those two players.

There are better spot up shooters out there than Martin, but the only way that would help Love's dime #'s much was if it's a team with a guy who is the focal point of the offense. And if that's the case, Love's scoring certainly dips to compensate. And he's not going to be paired with anyone more prolific at sprinting upcourt than Brewer. Brewer ain't much -- but he's fast, and delights in cherry picking. He can be outdone in terms of quality, but probably not quantity.

None of that means he can't improve as an assist guy, but the part of the improvement that's credited to him is overstated by many. And it's hard to see where additional improvement comes from unless he's part of a radically different system with a non-traditional PG.

Spin it anyway you like. You're using Brewer and Martin as players who made Love better. Now imagine either of those guys were good

For every deep outlet to Brewer, he'd brick a 3.

Overall, Minny was still a terrible shooting team. 23rd in 2's and 26th 3's. Take Love's shooting out of there and they're damn near dead last. If anything, we're going to see a bigger jump in his assist totals once he gets on a competent team.

It's not spin. The bumps in raw numbers those two guys gave Love's assists over their counterparts from the year before more than account for his improved assist totals. It wasn't improved passing. It was improved circumstance, as proven by the fact that his assist totals to Peko were more than embarrassing.

You wanted to know what evidence there might be that his passing has peaked. I gave you plenty. If you didn't want that evidence, and just wanted to be a rah-rah fanboy, you shouldn't have asked for it.

You didn't give "evidence". Yes, the outlets to Brewer created a lot of cheap assists. Enough for a significant increase? Doubtful but I'd love to see these passing numbers that you have.

Not sure if I'm being a "rah-rah fanboy" or if I just don't believe a 25 year old has peaked. I don't think George, Curry or Wall have peaked either. Am I also a "rah-rah fanboy" of those players?

 

[TobiasFunke]

http://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/futures/

Spurs now the favorites to win the title... Interesting.

Makes perfect sense. I can't look at that site at work (thanks Obama!) but I'm guessing the Spurs are now a much heavier favorite to win their series than the Heat with the Game 1 results and the Ibaka injury Guessing Spurs -300 and Heat maybe -170 or something? That plus the emerging possibility that they'll play the Pacers instead of the Heat in the Finals makes the Spurs the clear favorite IMO.

Here are current... SAS almost even money.

San Antonio Spurs 11/10 Miami Heat 9/5 Indiana Pacers 15/2 Oklahoma City Thunder 8/1

Out of curiosity, what are the current series prices?

 

[rodg12]

I'd just like to point out how incredibly wrong I was about Love. Thought the doughy, un-athletic big man was going to be a huge bust.

LBJ

Durant

CP3

Steph Curry

John Wall

Paul George

I'd put Love somewhere after George and near Melo/Blake Griffin if I was drafting a team.

Anthony Davis has to be in the top 5 here. Might even be 3rd right now in the 'starting a team from scratch' rankings.