*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (3 Viewers)

[Kev4029]

You guys are getting waaaaaay ahead of yourselves with George.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Paul George is going to be a top 10 player by next year. The guy can do everything. And if I'm the Pacers, I say so long to Granger and throw a bunch more money at West. George, West and Hibbert make a really nice nucleus for the next 3 years or so.

Not that I'm arguing just to argue, but top10 is a bit of a stretch. JamesDurant WestbrookHardenMeloHowardKobePaulBlakeIrving Who are you bumping from that list for Paul George ?

Melo, Kobe & Griffin can all be crossed off for George IMO within the next year or two. Age and lack of defense are big factors. This is based on only seeing him play on national TV from Seattle, which is limited with the Pacers, but he looks phenomenal. He's not as flashy as those three, but in the flow of the game he seems to make a huge impact.

 

[sporthenry]

You guys are getting waaaaaay ahead of yourselves with George.

Also funny how quickly guys like Rose, Wall and Love fall off everyones radar. And then we are going to get into arguments about whether Rondo is better than Paul. Probably better to cap it at positions. He'll prob be fighting for 3rd/4th SF with Melo and I'm not so quick to dismiss Melo.

 

[Abraham]

1. James2 Durant 3. Parsons 4. Anthony 5. George...?

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

1. James2 Durant 3. Parsons 4. Anthony 5. George...?

Why is Parsons so low?

 

[Abraham]

1. James2 Durant 3. Parsons 4. Anthony 5. George...?

Why is Parsons so low?

Give it a year or two. Lebron getting old. Parsons on his way up.

 

[Popinski]

1. James2 Durant 3. Parsons 4. Anthony 5. George...?

Too early for Parsons. He needs another year. But the rest is fine.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Jesus, are we really in here comparing Paul George to Melo? What basketball universe would this be in?

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

Nate Robinson been a unsung pickup by the Bulls due to Rose's injury. Playing terrific in starting role since Hinrich went down (17 ppg 9 apg)

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

Nate Robinson been a unsung pickup by the Bulls due to Rose's injury. Playing terrific in starting role since Hinrich went down (17 ppg 9 apg)

I read a funny article how Robinson provokes such extreme emotions in Thibs. When he blows an easy defensive assignment (particularly being in the wrong spot on the floor) he enrages Thibs, but then he'll come down the other end and hit a dagger three-pointer, or when the offense stagnates, and the shot clock is dwindling, he'll hit a ridiculous off balance shot, and Thibodeau will burst out laughing.Thibodeau likes Robinson personally, but he's a handful to deal with.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Is anyone really taking the Spurs seriously? 38-12, they had won 10 in a row, still feel like OKC will dispose of them inside of 6 games. The Spurs are the quintessential "team" but they simply don't have enough mega stars to get it done. They just don't seem that scary.

 

[Zaxxon]

1. James2 Durant 3. Parsons 4. Anthony 5. George...?

I'm still trying to figure out how the starters for the Rockets aren't the starters for the West team in the all-star game.

 

[Abraham]

Is anyone really taking the Spurs seriously? 38-12, they had won 10 in a row, still feel like OKC will dispose of them inside of 6 games. The Spurs are the quintessential "team" but they simply don't have enough mega stars to get it done. They just don't seem that scary.

No, they don't. Mostly becAuse their stars are underrated compared to the guys on other teams. But I'm sure popovich is using the season for a Petrie dish to get ready for okc. It's easy to forget that the spurs were on fire through 2 games of the wcf before blowing it. And I think they are a better team this season.

 

[Britney Spears]

Paul George is going to be a top 10 player by next year. The guy can do everything. And if I'm the Pacers, I say so long to Granger and throw a bunch more money at West. George, West and Hibbert make a really nice nucleus for the next 3 years or so.

Not that I'm arguing just to argue, but top10 is a bit of a stretch. JamesDurant WestbrookHardenMeloHowardKobePaulBlakeIrving Who are you bumping from that list for Paul George ?

Melo, Kobe & Griffin can all be crossed off for George IMO within the next year or two. Age and lack of defense are big factors. This is based on only seeing him play on national TV from Seattle, which is limited with the Pacers, but he looks phenomenal. He's not as flashy as those three, but in the flow of the game he seems to make a huge impact.

I know you are a big fan of high volume scoring and lack of defense, so this makes sense.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Paul George is going to be a top 10 player by next year. The guy can do everything. And if I'm the Pacers, I say so long to Granger and throw a bunch more money at West. George, West and Hibbert make a really nice nucleus for the next 3 years or so.

Not that I'm arguing just to argue, but top10 is a bit of a stretch. JamesDurant WestbrookHardenMeloHowardKobePaulBlakeIrving Who are you bumping from that list for Paul George ?

George will be better than Harden, Melo, Kobe, Howard and Blake next year. Kobe is on too much of a decline, Howard is a wreck physically and soft, and George will be a better all around player than Harden, Melo and Blake.

Getting a little ahead of yourself. George is going to be very good but he isn't there yet. He is a better defender than everyone on that list except for LeBron, Paul and Howard. He does have a few things working against him:1) He plays in Indiana2) He isn't a volume scorer3) He plays a team game (from what I've seen)I think the best comparison for him would be Deng... with Deng being George's floor.

 

[Kev4029]

Paul George is going to be a top 10 player by next year. The guy can do everything. And if I'm the Pacers, I say so long to Granger and throw a bunch more money at West. George, West and Hibbert make a really nice nucleus for the next 3 years or so.

Not that I'm arguing just to argue, but top10 is a bit of a stretch. JamesDurant WestbrookHardenMeloHowardKobePaulBlakeIrving Who are you bumping from that list for Paul George ?

Melo, Kobe & Griffin can all be crossed off for George IMO within the next year or two. Age and lack of defense are big factors. This is based on only seeing him play on national TV from Seattle, which is limited with the Pacers, but he looks phenomenal. He's not as flashy as those three, but in the flow of the game he seems to make a huge impact.

I know you are a big fan of high volume scoring and lack of defense, so this makes sense.

High volume with good efficiency is much better than good volume with moderate efficiency. Kobe is scoring 27.4 ppg with a .567 TS%, Melo is scoring 28.7 ppg with a .568 TS%, George is scoring 17.8 ppg with a .536 TS%. Being that scoring is the most important skill in basketball by a large margin, I would say that George is still way behind those two high volume scoring guys. George is much more Luol Deng than he is Carmelo/Kobe/anybody that could be considered in the top 10.You guys are ridiculous.ETA: Cliff, I made the Deng comparison before reading your post.

 

[No. 16]

I'm a big Paul George fan, but I don't think he'll ever be a big-time scorer since his handle is bad for a wingman. His offensive game is similar to Jason Richardson in his prime.

 

[Britney Spears]

Paul George is going to be a top 10 player by next year. The guy can do everything. And if I'm the Pacers, I say so long to Granger and throw a bunch more money at West. George, West and Hibbert make a really nice nucleus for the next 3 years or so.

Not that I'm arguing just to argue, but top10 is a bit of a stretch. JamesDurant WestbrookHardenMeloHowardKobePaulBlakeIrving Who are you bumping from that list for Paul George ?

Melo, Kobe & Griffin can all be crossed off for George IMO within the next year or two. Age and lack of defense are big factors. This is based on only seeing him play on national TV from Seattle, which is limited with the Pacers, but he looks phenomenal. He's not as flashy as those three, but in the flow of the game he seems to make a huge impact.

I know you are a big fan of high volume scoring and lack of defense, so this makes sense.

High volume with good efficiency is much better than good volume with moderate efficiency. Kobe is scoring 27.4 ppg with a .567 TS%, Melo is scoring 28.7 ppg with a .568 TS%, George is scoring 17.8 ppg with a .536 TS%. Being that scoring is the most important skill in basketball by a large margin, I would say that George is still way behind those two high volume scoring guys. George is much more Luol Deng than he is Carmelo/Kobe/anybody that could be considered in the top 10.You guys are ridiculous.ETA: Cliff, I made the Deng comparison before reading your post.

Not saying he's there yet, but his all around game is already better than Kobe (at this stage)/Melo IMO and his scoring is improving rapidly.

 

[biggamer3]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

 

[sporthenry]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

Yeah, a very practical example of this is Andre Iguodala. Last year in Phi he had DWS of 4.2 and DRTG of 98. This year he's at 1.8 and 105 respectively. He hasn't degraded that much as a defender, those are really just team stats masquerading as individual stats.

 

[biggamer3]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

exactly, and the Knicks main problem on Defense this year has been stopping opposing PG's from penetrating and doing whatever they want. For some reason Felton sucks at defense and Shump or any of the other Shooting guards have been bad on defense this year.

 

[sporthenry]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

Fair enough. But I still think it provides something and isn't completely meaningless. Like George is the highest rated guy on a good defensive team. That should mean something. And Melo is tied for 9th on his team for defensive rating. So it isn't like Melo seems to be held back by the rest of the team. George also has a higher DRB% and Steal%. And perhaps the stats back up the eye test but Melo still isn't a very good defender.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Paul George is going to be a top 10 player by next year. The guy can do everything. And if I'm the Pacers, I say so long to Granger and throw a bunch more money at West. George, West and Hibbert make a really nice nucleus for the next 3 years or so.

Not that I'm arguing just to argue, but top10 is a bit of a stretch. JamesDurant WestbrookHardenMeloHowardKobePaulBlakeIrving Who are you bumping from that list for Paul George ?

Melo, Kobe & Griffin can all be crossed off for George IMO within the next year or two. Age and lack of defense are big factors. This is based on only seeing him play on national TV from Seattle, which is limited with the Pacers, but he looks phenomenal. He's not as flashy as those three, but in the flow of the game he seems to make a huge impact.

I know you are a big fan of high volume scoring and lack of defense, so this makes sense.

High volume with good efficiency is much better than good volume with moderate efficiency. Kobe is scoring 27.4 ppg with a .567 TS%, Melo is scoring 28.7 ppg with a .568 TS%, George is scoring 17.8 ppg with a .536 TS%. Being that scoring is the most important skill in basketball by a large margin, I would say that George is still way behind those two high volume scoring guys. George is much more Luol Deng than he is Carmelo/Kobe/anybody that could be considered in the top 10.You guys are ridiculous.ETA: Cliff, I made the Deng comparison before reading your post.

Not saying he's there yet, but his all around game is already better than Kobe (at this stage)/Melo IMO and his scoring is improving rapidly.

 

[the moops]

 

[Britney Spears]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

I don't disagree with you, and I don't know enough to try. These advanced stats (even regular stats) are not really my thing. I'm solely basing this on the games I've seen. But IMO George is an elite multi-purpose defender when you watch him on the court. Melo is very average on the defensive end. Guys like Melo/Kobe are drastically better than George scoring the ball today. Nobody disagrees with that. In the rest of the game though, he's already better and his offensive game is improving quickly. He's only 22 I think and he gets his points in the flow of the game (doesn't ball hog/iso much at all) unlike Kobe/Melo who have the ball in their hands a ton.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

I don't disagree with you, and I don't know enough to try. These advanced stats (even regular stats) are not really my thing. I'm solely basing this on the games I've seen. But IMO George is an elite multi-purpose defender when you watch him on the court. Melo is very average on the defensive end. Guys like Melo/Kobe are drastically better than George scoring the ball today. Nobody disagrees with that. In the rest of the game though, he's already better and his offensive game is improving quickly. He's only 22 I think and he gets his points in the flow of the game (doesn't ball hog/iso much at all) unlike Kobe/Melo who have the ball in their hands a ton.

Completely agree with everything. I was not trying to say that Melo was a better defender. Hell no. Just saying that using DRTG and DWS to compare players on other teams isn't very good. IMO, the best way to look at DRTG:Is the players DRTG better than his teams average? NYK: 105, Melo: 107 -Melo is a below average defender on his team that ranks 15th in the league.IND: 99, George: 96 -George is an above average defender on the number one defensive team.LeBron has a DRTG of 102, not even in the top 50 in the league. A stat that doesn't have the guy who at worst, is the 5th best defender in the league, isn't something that should be looked at too closely. Over the course of a career, it may work out, but within a season, its useless. George's offensive game isn't nearly as polished as Melo or Kobe. It may or may not get there. If it doesn't, he'll be an excellent Pippen... of course when he gets a max deal, he'll go from underrated to overrated.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

Fair enough. But I still think it provides something and isn't completely meaningless. Like George is the highest rated guy on a good defensive team. That should mean something. And Melo is tied for 9th on his team for defensive rating. So it isn't like Melo seems to be held back by the rest of the team. George also has a higher DRB% and Steal%. And perhaps the stats back up the eye test but Melo still isn't a very good defender.

Used in that context, yes, it is helpful. But just using it as a straight up comparison isn't. I wasn't disagreeing with your conclusion. Just how you got there.

 

[Kev4029]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

Fair enough. But I still think it provides something and isn't completely meaningless. Like George is the highest rated guy on a good defensive team. That should mean something. And Melo is tied for 9th on his team for defensive rating. So it isn't like Melo seems to be held back by the rest of the team. George also has a higher DRB% and Steal%. And perhaps the stats back up the eye test but Melo still isn't a very good defender.

Tell me how those stats are created and maybe they mean something. Why do you think its significant if Melo is 9th on his team and George is 1st if you have no idea how the stat is developed? FTW, I understand that George is a better defender, I just don't think those stats are relevant to anything.

 

[sporthenry]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

Fair enough. But I still think it provides something and isn't completely meaningless. Like George is the highest rated guy on a good defensive team. That should mean something. And Melo is tied for 9th on his team for defensive rating. So it isn't like Melo seems to be held back by the rest of the team. George also has a higher DRB% and Steal%. And perhaps the stats back up the eye test but Melo still isn't a very good defender.

Tell me how those stats are created and maybe they mean something. Why do you think its significant if Melo is 9th on his team and George is 1st if you have no idea how the stat is developed? FTW, I understand that George is a better defender, I just don't think those stats are relevant to anything.

I never said I had no idea how the stat was developed. DRTG is how many points your team gives up on 100 possessions while you are on the floor. So it isn't irrelevant, it is just very dependent on the rest of your team as well. And that is the flaw with the system especially comparing it absolutely but it is really the only measure of defense so it provides at least something to work off of. Now as far as Melo being 9th and George being 1st. Melo is 9th on a bad defensive team. So that means he is a below average defender on a bad team. So when your team on the whole is bad on defense and you are one of the worst defenders, it doesn't seem like he can just blame Felton/Novak b/c the defense doesn't get better when he is out there and Novak/Felton aren't. And similar logic would apply to George being on a good team.

 

[simmonjm]

Prior to his wrist injury Batum was playing as good if not better than George. Batum seems like a much better comparison than Deng for George. The Melo hate is strong here the guy is playing out of his mind this year and is arguably the 3rd best player in the NBA right now. Did anyone see the last couple of minutes of the Knicks vs Timberwolves? He took over the game and scored the last 12 points. Everyone knew where the ball was going and could do nothing to stop him. I am HIGHLY skeptical George will ever get to that point.

 

[thecatch]

Prior to his wrist injury Batum was playing as good if not better than George. Batum seems like a much better comparison than Deng for George. The Melo hate is strong here the guy is playing out of his mind this year and is arguably the 3rd best player in the NBA right now. Did anyone see the last couple of minutes of the Knicks vs Timberwolves? He took over the game and scored the last 12 points. Everyone knew where the ball was going and could do nothing to stop him. I am HIGHLY skeptical George will ever get to that point.

I haven't really watched much of George but batum is maddeningly inconsistent.

 

[Kev4029]

I never said I had no idea how the stat was developed. DRTG is how many points your team gives up on 100 possessions while you are on the floor. So it isn't irrelevant, it is just very dependent on the rest of your team as well. And that is the flaw with the system especially comparing it absolutely but it is really the only measure of defense so it provides at least something to work off of. Now as far as Melo being 9th and George being 1st. Melo is 9th on a bad defensive team. So that means he is a below average defender on a bad team. So when your team on the whole is bad on defense and you are one of the worst defenders, it doesn't seem like he can just blame Felton/Novak b/c the defense doesn't get better when he is out there and Novak/Felton aren't. And similar logic would apply to George being on a good team.

I think the Drtg stat is worthless junk on a player by player basis. On a team to team basis its the go to stat for defensive prowess but I don't think its at all accurate for players.The Pacers have a Drtg of 99.6, yet Hill has a Drtg of 102 while playing 63% of the PG minutes, Augustine has a Drtg of 104 while playing 30% of the minutes, and Baby Hansbrough has played 5% of PG minutes and has a Drtg of 101. I don't think its possible to have all of the point guards have a Drtg above the team rating. The Nuggets have a Drtg of 105 yet both Lawson and Miller have Drtg's of 108 and have played a combined 97% of the PG minutes. Drtg is an estimate, not a real number. I imagine there is some formula used for this estimate but I'm not sure and I've never seen it. The more common advanced stats for defensive play (PER against, DWS and Drtg) are all nearly worthless and are all trying to spread the team's defensive accolades around fairly haphazardly. IMO, the only way to really see who the good defensive player are is to watch them, the stats blow.ETA: You can take a look at just about any team and see some of the poor defensive players at the top of the Drtg for the team and some of the good defensive players near the bottom.

 

[simmonjm]

Prior to his wrist injury Batum was playing as good if not better than George. Batum seems like a much better comparison than Deng for George. The Melo hate is strong here the guy is playing out of his mind this year and is arguably the 3rd best player in the NBA right now. Did anyone see the last couple of minutes of the Knicks vs Timberwolves? He took over the game and scored the last 12 points. Everyone knew where the ball was going and could do nothing to stop him. I am HIGHLY skeptical George will ever get to that point.

I haven't really watched much of George but batum is maddeningly inconsistent.

 

[Britney Spears]

I know Melo gets a bad rap for his defense but if it wasnt for his reputation of being a lazy defender you could not know that this year. He always seems to be willing to bang with bigger players and has done a nice job this year IMO on teh defensive end

George leads the league in sports-reference Defensive win shares and is 5th in defensive rating. George's defensive rating is 96.9 compared to Melo at 107. DWS is at 3.9 compared to Melo at 1.2. Interestingly, Melo actually had a better defensive year last year according to those stats. As far as total win shares, Melo is at 6.1 (.187/48 minutes) compared to George at 5.9 (.151/48 minutes). So he seems to be in the discussion but still trails Melo. And that doesn't account for the fact that at the end of the game, I'd much prefer Melo shooting even though most people overrate offense in these discussions.

DRTG is a pretty bad stat to use here. David West has a DRTG of 99 and DWS of 3.2. Tyson Chandler has a DRTG of 104 and DWS of 1.9. Do you believe West is a better defensive player than Chandler? Defensive stats rely too heavily on team defence. The Knicks are a mediocre defence so all of their players will have mediocre defensive statistics.

I don't disagree with you, and I don't know enough to try. These advanced stats (even regular stats) are not really my thing. I'm solely basing this on the games I've seen. But IMO George is an elite multi-purpose defender when you watch him on the court. Melo is very average on the defensive end. Guys like Melo/Kobe are drastically better than George scoring the ball today. Nobody disagrees with that. In the rest of the game though, he's already better and his offensive game is improving quickly. He's only 22 I think and he gets his points in the flow of the game (doesn't ball hog/iso much at all) unlike Kobe/Melo who have the ball in their hands a ton.

Completely agree with everything. I was not trying to say that Melo was a better defender. Hell no. Just saying that using DRTG and DWS to compare players on other teams isn't very good. IMO, the best way to look at DRTG:Is the players DRTG better than his teams average? NYK: 105, Melo: 107 -Melo is a below average defender on his team that ranks 15th in the league.IND: 99, George: 96 -George is an above average defender on the number one defensive team.LeBron has a DRTG of 102, not even in the top 50 in the league. A stat that doesn't have the guy who at worst, is the 5th best defender in the league, isn't something that should be looked at too closely. Over the course of a career, it may work out, but within a season, its useless. George's offensive game isn't nearly as polished as Melo or Kobe. It may or may not get there. If it doesn't, he'll be an excellent Pippen... of course when he gets a max deal, he'll go from underrated to overrated.

I will also say that IMO Melo is the best of those 3 players today (Melo, Kobe, Griffin) and the guy Paul George is least likely to surpass in the next year or two.

 

[Britney Spears]

Prior to his wrist injury Batum was playing as good if not better than George. Batum seems like a much better comparison than Deng for George. The Melo hate is strong here the guy is playing out of his mind this year and is arguably the 3rd best player in the NBA right now. Did anyone see the last couple of minutes of the Knicks vs Timberwolves? He took over the game and scored the last 12 points. Everyone knew where the ball was going and could do nothing to stop him. I am HIGHLY skeptical George will ever get to that point.

I like Batum's game a lot, but I think he pretty much has become what he will be at this point. I don't see him becoming a #1 option for a good team.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

George is already at Deng's level, if not beyond. As someone else said, Deng is his floor.

 

[boubucarow]

George is already at Deng's level, if not beyond. As someone else said, Deng is his floor.

I agree. Defensively I think some deserved All Defense teams should be in his near future. He doesn't have the ball handling skills to become a Pippen type player who often initiates and creates offense. So to become a top 10 type player he will need to become a higher volume and more efficient scorer. Maybe a Paul Pierce type of offensive prime does it.

 

[Abraham]

It is a joy to watch Chris Paul handle the ball.

 

[Abraham]

Melo with an awesome third quarter (18 points)

 

[tommyGunZ]

Where did all the Melo haters go? Are they on timeout?

 

[Short Corner]

God Griffin flops like a little #####.

 

[sporthenry]

Melo with an awesome third quarter (18 points)

But what was his defensive rating?

 

[Britney Spears]

Where did all the Melo haters go? Are they on timeout?

I don't think I qualify as a Melo hater, but he did seem to do an awful lot of ball hogging today, while the Clips seemed to share and distribute much better. I tried for a second to look up his stats briefly to see how that might look in the box score, but nba.com is impossible for me. If my company was responsible for that website I would be telling them to turn it off until they get it right.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Paul George is going to be a top 10 player by next year. The guy can do everything. And if I'm the Pacers, I say so long to Granger and throw a bunch more money at West. George, West and Hibbert make a really nice nucleus for the next 3 years or so.

Not that I'm arguing just to argue, but top10 is a bit of a stretch. JamesDurant WestbrookHardenMeloHowardKobePaulBlakeIrving Who are you bumping from that list for Paul George ?

Melo, Kobe & Griffin can all be crossed off for George IMO within the next year or two. Age and lack of defense are big factors. This is based on only seeing him play on national TV from Seattle, which is limited with the Pacers, but he looks phenomenal. He's not as flashy as those three, but in the flow of the game he seems to make a huge impact.

I know you are a big fan of high volume scoring and lack of defense, so this makes sense.

I love advanced stats as much as the next guy, but in an effort to quantify everything and come up with new ways to rank players, scoring has become underrated. It is the single hardest thing to do on a basketball court, and stat geeks are equating APG and SPG with scoring. It's a joke.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Where did all the Melo haters go? Are they on timeout?

I don't think I qualify as a Melo hater, but he did seem to do an awful lot of ball hogging today, while the Clips seemed to share and distribute much better. I tried for a second to look up his stats briefly to see how that might look in the box score, but nba.com is impossible for me. If my company was responsible for that website I would be telling them to turn it off until they get it right.

NBA.com is an abortion. It's unbelievable to me that a league that has been so much at the forefront of technology has such an awful, awful website. MLB.com is only slightly better.

 

[ffldrew]

Where did all the Melo haters go? Are they on timeout?

Nugget fan here - we are so much better without him.

 

[timschochet]

Good start for the Lakers. Hopefully they can keep it up.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Dwight is such a non factor on both ends. He needs to call the tin man pronto.