*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (4 Viewers)

[Celph Titled]

Should we do some kind of NBA FA pick'em pool?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

Ben Wallace

 

[Walton Goggins]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

That has nothing to do with what I just said.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

Ben Wallace

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

That has nothing to do with what I just said.

You claimed star players love to play for the Bulls. Then I asked you to name a star player who played for the Bulls. Then you said my question had nothing to do with your claim.I guess I may as well say "It's a proven fact that star players HATE playing for the Bulls", since you can't disprove that either.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

Ben Wallace

I don't mean to be rude, but you're really showing your ignorance here. Ben Wallace was the top available free agent in the 2006 class. He was an All-Star and won the Defensive Player of the Year four of the prior five years.Edit to add: I assume you were trying to make the point that the Bulls haven't been able to sign top free agents. If you are trying to make some other point, please elaborate.

 

[thecatch]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

Ben Wallace

I don't mean to be rude, but you're really showing your ignorance here. Ben Wallace was the top available free agent in the 2006 class. He was an All-Star and won the Defensive Player of the Year four of the prior five years.Edit to add: I assume you were trying to make the point that the Bulls haven't been able to sign top free agents. If you are trying to make some other point, please elaborate.

I think, for those with long memories, there is the (probably unfair) perception that Chicago struggled to land a big name the last time we had a FA crop this talented with Hill, McGrady, and Duncan. (And the 2006 FA class was hardly star-studded.)

 

[Mr. Retukes]

I don't mean to be rude, but you're really showing your ignorance here. Ben Wallace was the top available free agent in the 2006 class. He was an All-Star and won the Defensive Player of the Year four of the prior five years.Edit to add: I assume you were trying to make the point that the Bulls haven't been able to sign top free agents. If you are trying to make some other point, please elaborate.

Wallace made 4 All-Star games when he was younger (in a weak Eastern conference, I might add), but he was a shell of that player for the Bulls.Oh, and you're not allowed to be called a "star" if you've never averaged more than 9.8 points per game. Sorry. Little known rule.Fact is, the Bulls haven't attracted a star player since Jordan.

 

[Juxtatarot]

I think, for those with long memories, there is the (probably unfair) perception that Chicago struggled to land a big name the last time we had a FA crop this talented with Hill, McGrady, and Duncan. (And the 2006 FA class was hardly star-studded.)

Right, but it's laughable to compare the situation in 2000 (I think that was the year) with this year's. Although it's a stretch, the comparison to the 2000 Bulls and this year's Knicks or Nets is more apt.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Oh, and you're not allowed to be called a "star" if you've never averaged more than 9.8 points per game. Sorry. Little known rule.

If Ben Wallace was never considered a "star" by your rules, you are not really worth discussing basketball with.

 

[Abraham]

I just don't think the whole "he cares about winning!" and "legacy" thing is nearly as important. Or, that its the only important thing. The Bulls have Noah, Rose and Deng. Add Bosh and LBJ and that's a heck of a lineup. But two years from now, when Rose and Noah have to be extended what happens? Conversely, New Jersey could have LBJ and Bosh as well but have a very good big man (which LBJ has never had) and a power forward that could be very good. Are you SURE that in 2011 and 2012 the Bulls will be in that much better shape then the Nets?Additionally, I don't think that Lebron would give up better opportunities for himself and his brand just for the immediate gratification of a slightly better roster. Chicago is a big market, for sure, but it's not LA or NY. He's talking about trying to be a billion dollar man. I'm sure he wants to win, but considering he's had a team like the Cavs (loaded with mediocre talent) win 60 games each year, I'm not sure that the Clips, Knicks, Nets, Mavs, etc. would be that much worse of a situation in the short (or long) term.

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top. When Lebron goes to Chicago he dines at the same steak house Jordan dined at, at the same exact table and with the same waiter. That waiter in fact told Ford from ESPN that Lebron told him that to save his table since he's signing with the Bulls. Take that for what it's worth.More importantly the people who say that a player like Lebron would never play in Chicago because he doesn't want to follow in Jordan's footsteps must not follow the NBA. Players actually want to do the opposite.

So with that thinking the knicks are the easy choice.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Oh, and you're not allowed to be called a "star" if you've never averaged more than 9.8 points per game. Sorry. Little known rule.

If Ben Wallace was never considered a "star" by your rules, you are not really worth discussing basketball with.

He was Michael Cage without the activator.

 

[Walton Goggins]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

That has nothing to do with what I just said.

You claimed star players love to play for the Bulls. Then I asked you to name a star player who played for the Bulls. Then you said my question had nothing to do with your claim.I guess I may as well say "It's a proven fact that star players HATE playing for the Bulls", since you can't disprove that either.

The top of the list right now in terms of following in previous great players are those three teams. Up to this point the Bulls didn't have the cap space to get a Kobe like player.You seemed to be shuked by all of this so I have to assume you really don't follow the NBA and its history.

 

[Walton Goggins]

I don't mean to be rude, but you're really showing your ignorance here. Ben Wallace was the top available free agent in the 2006 class. He was an All-Star and won the Defensive Player of the Year four of the prior five years.Edit to add: I assume you were trying to make the point that the Bulls haven't been able to sign top free agents. If you are trying to make some other point, please elaborate.

Wallace made 4 All-Star games when he was younger (in a weak Eastern conference, I might add), but he was a shell of that player for the Bulls.Oh, and you're not allowed to be called a "star" if you've never averaged more than 9.8 points per game. Sorry. Little known rule.Fact is, the Bulls haven't attracted a star player since Jordan.

Dude, please stop.

 

[Walton Goggins]

I just don't think the whole "he cares about winning!" and "legacy" thing is nearly as important. Or, that its the only important thing. The Bulls have Noah, Rose and Deng. Add Bosh and LBJ and that's a heck of a lineup. But two years from now, when Rose and Noah have to be extended what happens? Conversely, New Jersey could have LBJ and Bosh as well but have a very good big man (which LBJ has never had) and a power forward that could be very good. Are you SURE that in 2011 and 2012 the Bulls will be in that much better shape then the Nets?Additionally, I don't think that Lebron would give up better opportunities for himself and his brand just for the immediate gratification of a slightly better roster. Chicago is a big market, for sure, but it's not LA or NY. He's talking about trying to be a billion dollar man. I'm sure he wants to win, but considering he's had a team like the Cavs (loaded with mediocre talent) win 60 games each year, I'm not sure that the Clips, Knicks, Nets, Mavs, etc. would be that much worse of a situation in the short (or long) term.

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top. When Lebron goes to Chicago he dines at the same steak house Jordan dined at, at the same exact table and with the same waiter. That waiter in fact told Ford from ESPN that Lebron told him that to save his table since he's signing with the Bulls. Take that for what it's worth.More importantly the people who say that a player like Lebron would never play in Chicago because he doesn't want to follow in Jordan's footsteps must not follow the NBA. Players actually want to do the opposite.

So with that thinking the knicks are the easy choice.

Actually quite the opposite.

 

[Green94]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

Can I name some "Star" players that have played after Magic, Kareem, Larry, and Wilt?

 

[Yenrub]

Does anyone think that unkind words Noah had for Cleveland would make Lebron not want to play with him?

I have no idea if those two don’t really get along

 

[Celph Titled]

Does anyone think that unkind words Noah had for Cleveland would make Lebron not want to play with him?I have no idea if those two don’t really get along

I seriously doubt that would be a major consideration.

 

[Walton Goggins]

Does anyone think that unkind words Noah had for Cleveland would make Lebron not want to play with him?I have no idea if those two don’t really get along

No

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Up to this point the Bulls didn't have the cap space to get a Kobe like player.

They had the cap space in 2000 but no star players would sign with them.But since you didn't mention that I will just conclude that you really don't follow the NBA and its history.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

Can I name some "Star" players that have played after Magic, Kareem, Larry, and Wilt?

I totally agree that star players love to go to the Lakers and Celtics.But history has shown that the star players do not treat Chicago with that same level of reverence.

 

[Celph Titled]

Up to this point the Bulls didn't have the cap space to get a Kobe like player.

They had the cap space in 2000 but no star players would sign with them.But since you didn't mention that I will just conclude that you really don't follow the NBA and its history.

But how often do star players change teams when they're UFAs?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Up to this point the Bulls didn't have the cap space to get a Kobe like player.

They had the cap space in 2000 but no star players would sign with them.But since you didn't mention that I will just conclude that you really don't follow the NBA and its history.

But how often do star players change teams when they're UFAs?

That has nothing to do with what I just said.[/WaltonGonnins]eta: but to answer your question: there were at least 5 high-level free agents in 2000 (Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Eddie Jones, Tim Thomas, Glen Rice) who did indeed leave their respective teams. And none of them signed with Chicago even though Chicago had a ton of available cap space.

 

[Celph Titled]

Up to this point the Bulls didn't have the cap space to get a Kobe like player.

They had the cap space in 2000 but no star players would sign with them.But since you didn't mention that I will just conclude that you really don't follow the NBA and its history.

But how often do star players change teams when they're UFAs?

That has nothing to do with what I just said.

Sure it does.

 

[Green94]

eta: but to answer your question: there were at least 5 high-level free agents in 2000 (Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Eddie Jones, Tim Thomas, Glen Rice) who did indeed leave their respective teams. And none of them signed with Chicago even though Chicago had a ton of available cap space.

To be fair, do you think any of those guys would want to play with this mess?15 Ron Artest F 44 Dalibor Bagaric 25 Corey Benjamin 42 Elton Brand 1 Jamal Crawford 24 Bryce Drew 2 Khalid El-Amin 21 Marcus Fizer30 Steve Goodrich 11 A.J. Guyton 20 Fred Hoiberg 5 Ron Mercer 40 Brad Miller 51 Michael Ruffin 12 Dragan Tarlac 43 Jake Voskuhl

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

15 Ron Artest F 44 Dalibor Bagaric 25 Corey Benjamin 42 Elton Brand 1 Jamal Crawford 24 Bryce Drew 2 Khalid El-Amin 21 Marcus Fizer30 Steve Goodrich 11 A.J. Guyton 20 Fred Hoiberg 5 Ron Mercer 40 Brad Miller 51 Michael Ruffin 12 Dragan Tarlac 43 Jake Voskuhl

I haven't looked up the numbers, but I'm guessing that team went 60-22 and made it to the Eastern Conference Championship.

 

[Green94]

15 Ron Artest F 44 Dalibor Bagaric 25 Corey Benjamin 42 Elton Brand 1 Jamal Crawford 24 Bryce Drew 2 Khalid El-Amin 21 Marcus Fizer30 Steve Goodrich 11 A.J. Guyton 20 Fred Hoiberg 5 Ron Mercer 40 Brad Miller 51 Michael Ruffin 12 Dragan Tarlac 43 Jake Voskuhl

I haven't looked up the numbers, but I'm guessing that team went 60-22 and made it to the Eastern Conference Championship.

 

[Green94]

Orlando was 43-39 and the Bulls were 15-67. Not sure what your point is?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Orlando was 43-39 and the Bulls were 15-67. Not sure what your point is?

Just dispelling the notions that A) the Bulls never had cap space, and B) star players love to play for Chicago.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Oh, and you're not allowed to be called a "star" if you've never averaged more than 9.8 points per game. Sorry. Little known rule.

If Ben Wallace was never considered a "star" by your rules, you are not really worth discussing basketball with.

Ben Wallace was never a star.

 

[thecatch]

Orlando was 43-39 and the Bulls were 15-67. Not sure what your point is?

In 99-00, Orlando 41-41, the Bulls were 17-65, but the post-sign and trade talent on the Orlando roster was also pretty unimpressive. Brand >> anybody on the Magic.I haven't done a scientific study on this, but it would seem to me warm weather would be a better predictor of whether a team attracts max level FA talent away from other franchises (e.g., LA (Shaq), Phoenix (Nash), Orlando (Hill, McGrady, R. Lewis)) rather than the storied history of the franchise.

 

[D'OHtis]

I'm a Villanova Wildcat alum and homer for what it's worth. I was just very surprised that Scottie Reynolds was not drafted. I think I heard that he is the first All American not drafted since the NBA/ABA merger. I mean somebody should have taken a flyer on him. What gives? What are the chances he signs as undrafted free agent?

I really forgot about him. (Seems like he was in college forever -- I think he made a big impact as a freshman (?) so that may be why). Surprised he went undrafted.I've heard he's going to join the Suns summer league team. The source that told me and I both agree he'd better off going overseas, make more money, and be contributor over there for a couple years.

 

[Walton Goggins]

Star players love to play for teams with history with Lakers, Celtics and Bulls being on top.

Name one star player who played for the Bulls after Jordan (or even before him), who wasn't drafted by the team.

Can I name some "Star" players that have played after Magic, Kareem, Larry, and Wilt?

I totally agree that star players love to go to the Lakers and Celtics.But history has shown that the star players do not treat Chicago with that same level of reverence.

Guess when a few do with Chicago pretty soon you'll change your mind

 

[Walton Goggins]

Up to this point the Bulls didn't have the cap space to get a Kobe like player.

They had the cap space in 2000 but no star players would sign with them.But since you didn't mention that I will just conclude that you really don't follow the NBA and its history.

But how often do star players change teams when they're UFAs?

That has nothing to do with what I just said.[/WaltonGonnins]eta: but to answer your question: there were at least 5 high-level free agents in 2000 (Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Eddie Jones, Tim Thomas, Glen Rice) who did indeed leave their respective teams. And none of them signed with Chicago even though Chicago had a ton of available cap space.

Those weren't the stars of Shaq, Kobe, Lebron ilk so again you're wrong.

 

[Walton Goggins]

Orlando was 43-39 and the Bulls were 15-67. Not sure what your point is?

Just dispelling the notions that A) the Bulls never had cap space, and B) star players love to play for Chicago.

Again people who say Lebron won't go to Chicago because of Jordan's legacy/follow in his steps are 100% wrong.

 

[Celph Titled]

Oh, and you're not allowed to be called a "star" if you've never averaged more than 9.8 points per game. Sorry. Little known rule.

If Ben Wallace was never considered a "star" by your rules, you are not really worth discussing basketball with.

Ben Wallace was never a star.

This is stupid talk.

 

[simmonjm]

Orlando was 43-39 and the Bulls were 15-67. Not sure what your point is?

Just dispelling the notions that A) the Bulls never had cap space, and B) star players love to play for Chicago.

Again people who say Lebron won't go to Chicago because of Jordan's legacy/follow in his steps are 100% wrong.

How are you so dialed into what Lebron thinks when everyone in the media has basically said its anyone guess what Lebron does?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Up to this point the Bulls didn't have the cap space to get a Kobe like player.

They had the cap space in 2000 but no star players would sign with them.But since you didn't mention that I will just conclude that you really don't follow the NBA and its history.

But how often do star players change teams when they're UFAs?

That has nothing to do with what I just said.[/WaltonGonnins]

eta: but to answer your question: there were at least 5 high-level free agents in 2000 (Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Eddie Jones, Tim Thomas, Glen Rice) who did indeed leave their respective teams. And none of them signed with Chicago even though Chicago had a ton of available cap space.

Those weren't the stars of Shaq, Kobe, Lebron ilk so again you're wrong.

I may be sober but I'm not wrong. Hill and McGrady were absolutely at the level of Kobe in their primes.And besides, how does it help your cause when you admit that even 2nd tier stars won't touch Chicago?

You've built up a flawed hypothesis ("star players love to play for the Bulls") and then you offer no proof to back it up EXCEPT for your wishful projection that it's GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. There's no way to disprove your argument!!

If it does happen, you'll say "See?! I told you so!"

And if it doesn't happen, you'll just say, "So what? It's still going to happen next year!"

You may as well predict the second coming of Jesus Christ. 41% of the Walton Goggins of the world believe that a star NBA player will sign with Chicago within the next 40 years.

 

[Abraham]

if he wants to be the face of a franchise then jersey or the knicks are the winners bet.

 

[Walton Goggins]

Orlando was 43-39 and the Bulls were 15-67. Not sure what your point is?

Just dispelling the notions that A) the Bulls never had cap space, and B) star players love to play for Chicago.

Again people who say Lebron won't go to Chicago because of Jordan's legacy/follow in his steps are 100% wrong.

How are you so dialed into what Lebron thinks when everyone in the media has basically said its anyone guess what Lebron does?

If he goes to Chicago or not the reason will definitely not be because he doesn't want to follow Jordan's legacy there.

 

[Walton Goggins]

if he wants to be the face of a franchise then jersey or the knicks are the winners bet.

He'll be the face of just about any franchise. No way in hell he'll go to Nets or the Knicks. When has the Knicks or Nets won anything?

 

[Walton Goggins]

I may be sober but I'm not wrong. Hill and McGrady were absolutely at the level of Kobe in their primes.

And besides, how does it help your cause when you admit that even 2nd tier stars won't touch Chicago?

You've built up a flawed hypothesis ("star players love to play for the Bulls") and then you offer no proof to back it up EXCEPT for your wishful projection that it's GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. There's no way to disprove your argument!!

If it does happen, you'll say "See?! I told you so!"

And if it doesn't happen, you'll just say, "So what? It's still going to happen next year!"

You may as well predict the second coming of Jesus Christ. 41% of the Walton Goggins of the world believe that a star NBA player will sign with Chicago within the next 40 years.

You're not following me. He would love to follow in Jordan's footsteps just like many players would love to follow Magic/Bird/ etc for the Lakers and Celtics. The argument "a star player like Lebron won't go to Chicago because he'll be following Jordan" is completely and utterly false. As if star players want to make their own mark on a team that hasn't done anything over a franchise that's had iconic players in the past.Hill and McGrady never sniffed Kobe, again you're wrong there.

 

[Abraham]

if he wants to be the face of a franchise then jersey or the knicks are the winners bet.

He'll be the face of just about any franchise. No way in hell he'll go to Nets or the Knicks. When has the Knicks or Nets won anything?

You are being obtuse. The heart are wade's team. The bulls are jordans team. The celtics belong to bird and russell. The lakers are for kobe, magic, and lou. The knicks have no one since the seventies. The nets have no one ever. The moment lebron joins either team, they are a top the team in the east, assuming he brings bosh. He can be the most popular public figure in the biggest market this side of beijing if he joins the knicks our nets. WHY is that so hard for you to see?

 

[Abraham]

I may be sober but I'm not wrong. Hill and McGrady were absolutely at the level of Kobe in their primes.

And besides, how does it help your cause when you admit that even 2nd tier stars won't touch Chicago?

You've built up a flawed hypothesis ("star players love to play for the Bulls") and then you offer no proof to back it up EXCEPT for your wishful projection that it's GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE. There's no way to disprove your argument!!

If it does happen, you'll say "See?! I told you so!"

And if it doesn't happen, you'll just say, "So what? It's still going to happen next year!"

You may as well predict the second coming of Jesus Christ. 41% of the Walton Goggins of the world believe that a star NBA player will sign with Chicago within the next 40 years.

You're not following me. He would love to follow in Jordan's footsteps just like many players would love to follow Magic/Bird/ etc for the Lakers and Celtics. The argument "a star player like Lebron won't go to Chicago because he'll be following Jordan" is completely and utterly false. As if star players want to make their own mark on a team that hasn't done anything over a franchise that's had iconic players in the past.Hill and McGrady never sniffed Kobe, again you're wrong there.

As free agents, they most certainly did.

 

[Mr. Retukes]

He would love to follow in Jordan's footsteps just like many players would love to follow Magic/Bird/ etc for the Lakers and Celtics. The argument "a star player like Lebron won't go to Chicago because he'll be following Jordan" is completely and utterly false.

Please provide a source for this. Also, please provide prior examples to support your claim.

 

[Juxtatarot]

He would love to follow in Jordan's footsteps just like many players would love to follow Magic/Bird/ etc for the Lakers and Celtics. The argument "a star player like Lebron won't go to Chicago because he'll be following Jordan" is completely and utterly false.

Please provide a source for this. Also, please provide prior examples to support your claim.

Whenever this topic comes up, every source that claims to have inside knowledge of LeBron's thinking will say he is not afraid of the Jordan shadow. I could provide plenty of links but I'm sure you would discount them all. As a prior example, Kobe wanted to be traded to the Bulls.

 

[Juxtatarot]

if he wants to be the face of a franchise then jersey or the knicks are the winners bet.

He'll be the face of just about any franchise. No way in hell he'll go to Nets or the Knicks. When has the Knicks or Nets won anything?

You are being obtuse. The heart are wade's team. The bulls are jordans team. The celtics belong to bird and russell. The lakers are for kobe, magic, and lou. The knicks have no one since the seventies. The nets have no one ever. The moment lebron joins either team, they are a top the team in the east, assuming he brings bosh. He can be the most popular public figure in the biggest market this side of beijing if he joins the knicks our nets. WHY is that so hard for you to see?

He would be a more popular figure if he wins a championship with the Bulls than if he loses with the Knicks or Nets. And the Bulls give him a better chance to win.

 

[Abraham]

He would love to follow in Jordan's footsteps just like many players would love to follow Magic/Bird/ etc for the Lakers and Celtics. The argument "a star player like Lebron won't go to Chicago because he'll be following Jordan" is completely and utterly false.

Please provide a source for this. Also, please provide prior examples to support your claim.

Whenever this topic comes up, every source that claims to have inside knowledge of LeBron's thinking will say he is not afraid of the Jordan shadow. I could provide plenty of links but I'm sure you would discount them all. As a prior example, Kobe wanted to be traded to the Bulls.

Did kobe ever get traded to the bulls?

 

[Abraham]

if he wants to be the face of a franchise then jersey or the knicks are the winners bet.

He'll be the face of just about any franchise. No way in hell he'll go to Nets or the Knicks. When has the Knicks or Nets won anything?

You are being obtuse. The heart are wade's team. The bulls are jordans team. The celtics belong to bird and russell. The lakers are for kobe, magic, and lou. The knicks have no one since the seventies. The nets have no one ever. The moment lebron joins either team, they are a top the team in the east, assuming he brings bosh. He can be the most popular public figure in the biggest market this side of beijing if he joins the knicks our nets. WHY is that so hard for you to see?

He would be a more popular figure if he wins a championship with the Bulls than if he loses with the Knicks or Nets. And the Bulls give him a better chance to win.

They give him a better chance to win next season. Not necessarily thereafter.