*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (4 Viewers)

[Voice Of Reason]

Using Lee's stats from last year vs Amare's from this.

TS%

Lee .584

Amare .574

TRB%

Lee 17.9

Amare 13.7

TOV%

Lee 11.9

Amare 14.1

Defensive Counterpoint PER

Lee 22.2

Amare 21.6

Assists/48

Lee 4.6*

Amare 3.5*

*approximated value from PF/C split on 82games, hedged the numbers in Amare's favor fwiw*

Usage

Lee 23.8

Amare 31.4

The only advantage Amare seems to bring is his ability to maintain his high TS% with high usage, but that is somewhat tempered by his high TOV% and his lack of assists. Lee is clearly the superior rebounder and both are clearly awful on defense.

Amare is playing with better players as well. Felton is a major upgrade from Duhon and Fields has played really well, probably the ROY in the non-Griffin division.

 

[Steelfan7]

Phoenix with Amar'e last yr won 54 games. This year they are a sub .500 team. Lee is horrendous on defense and is a stat compiler on bad teams. Lee makes Amar'e look like Ben Wallace in comparison on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[simmonjm]

Using Lee's stats from last year vs Amare's from this.TS%Lee .584Amare .574TRB%Lee 17.9Amare 13.7TOV%Lee 11.9Amare 14.1Defensive Counterpoint PERLee 22.2Amare 21.6Assists/48Lee 4.6*Amare 3.5**approximated value from PF/C split on 82games, hedged the numbers in Amare's favor fwiw*UsageLee 23.8Amare 31.4The only advantage Amare seems to bring is his ability to maintain his high TS% with high usage, but that is somewhat tempered by his high TOV% and his lack of assists. Lee is clearly the superior rebounder and both are clearly awful on defense.Amare is playing with better players as well. Felton is a major upgrade from Duhon and Fields has played really well, probably the ROY in the non-Griffin division.

Stats are great, but really the bottomline is how many games would the 2010 Knicks have won with Lee instead of Stoudemire? I would guess they are probably 5-10 games under .500 Amare is a leader and that doesnt show up in the stats. He changed the culture of the Knicks locker room prior to Amare you had guys like Al Harrington trying to be team leaders. Lee is a nice role player nothing more to say he and a MLE player is equal or greater to Amare is ridiculous its apparent that you need a superstar to win in this league and Amare is proof.

 

[simmonjm]

show your work.

Exhibit A - look up W-L record of teams Amar'e has been on and then look up W-L record of teams Lee has been on.That is just the starting point of the difference between the two.I'll hang up and listen now.

Tough to blame Lee for his team's record when the first half of his career was spent on Isiah Thomas constructed teams and followed by playing on teams constructed solely for their contracts rather than their contributions on the court. This year on the Warriors due to a zombie bite, Lee missed more games than than the past 3 years combined, and has only recently begun to regain full motion. I mean name the best teammate David Lee has played with. You get to choose between Steve Francis, Marbury, and Eddy Curry! Amare on the other hand has played with one of the best PGs of this decade and Shawn Marion who was arguably one of the best SF and defenders in the NBA. So comparing team records doesn't tell you the contributions of each player. Regarding Lee vs Amare considering money.Amare = 20 million per year/5 yrsLee = 13.3 million per year/6 yrs That's an extra 6.7 to spend which is can be used to get a MLE type player. So ask yourself is Lee + MLE type player <, >, or = to Amare?

Recent examples of MLE, Splitter, Artest, J Oneal. No way any one of those of guys plus Lee is better than Amare

 

[Kev4029]

Using Lee's stats from last year vs Amare's from this.TS%Lee .584Amare .574TRB%Lee 17.9Amare 13.7TOV%Lee 11.9Amare 14.1Defensive Counterpoint PERLee 22.2Amare 21.6Assists/48Lee 4.6*Amare 3.5**approximated value from PF/C split on 82games, hedged the numbers in Amare's favor fwiw*UsageLee 23.8Amare 31.4The only advantage Amare seems to bring is his ability to maintain his high TS% with high usage, but that is somewhat tempered by his high TOV% and his lack of assists. Lee is clearly the superior rebounder and both are clearly awful on defense.Amare is playing with better players as well. Felton is a major upgrade from Duhon and Fields has played really well, probably the ROY in the non-Griffin division.

Stats are great, but really the bottomline is how many games would the 2010 Knicks have won with Lee instead of Stoudemire? I would guess they are probably 5-10 games under .500 Amare is a leader and that doesnt show up in the stats. He changed the culture of the Knicks locker room prior to Amare you had guys like Al Harrington trying to be team leaders. Lee is a nice role player nothing more to say he and a MLE player is equal or greater to Amare is ridiculous its apparent that you need a superstar to win in this league and Amare is proof.

I don't know why Knick fans keep trying to justify Amare's contract by bringing up how well they are doing and basically leaving it at that.2009 LineupuhonChandler (Playing WAY out of position as a SG most of the year)McGrady/Jeffries (McGrady starting at SG i believe and Jeffries at PF)GallinariLeeJust for a second play along that Amare and Lee are equal players (clearly not true, I wouldn't argue that). Duhon (10.7 PER)was a complete mess and was the worst starting PG in the NBA and he was replaced by Felton who is playing near a All Star pace (18.5 PER). Chandler is a big SF and was forced into playing SG for the majority of last year, I would Fields this year is an upgrade at SG from Chandler last year, but only slightly. McGrady and Jeffries were absolutely horrible last year and were more end of the bench material and this year have been replaced by Chandler who is having a great year. The bump up from McGrady/Jeffries to Chandler is probably bigger than the bump from Duhon to Felton. Gallinari is shooting slightly better for this year than last, but he is essentially the same player as a year ago. SO....'10 Felton>>>>>'09 Duhon'10 Fields>'09 Chandler (because he was playing out of position mostly)'10 Chandler>>>>>'09 Jeffries'10 Gallo='09 GalloBut sure, give all the credit to Amare who is a marginal improvement over Lee.

 

[Sammy3469]

The only advantage Amare seems to bring is his ability to maintain his high TS% with high usage, but that is somewhat tempered by his high TOV% and his lack of assists. Lee is clearly the superior rebounder and both are clearly awful on defense.

Not for nothing, but that's a huge difference and separates the superstars scorers from the second tier guys.Amar'e also wants the ball at the end of the game. I can't imagine what the Knicks would do at the end of a close game with the Lee in for Amar'e to ensure a decent shot. The other sort of major difference is that Lee is more of a back to the basket player while Amar'e prefers to face the basket. It's a minor detail, but in D'Antoni's offense, it allows the Knicks to swing the ball quicker to weakside side corner 3 (which is their favorite shot especially for Chandler...I haven't looked at the stats but they've been getting the ball to that shooter much quicker this year than last) and has opened up the middle for Chandler and Gallo to drive (which Gallo was starting to do better before the knee sprain).In any case, all this Stoudamire talk is pretty funny since the most important Knick so far has been Chandler. If he wins his matchup, the Knicks generally win. He's the best player on the table for any trade with Denver and I'm not sure he's even on the table anymore (and I'm not sure Fields is either...in a poor draft this year Fields would be a top 10 pick).

 

[Kev4029]

Phoenix with Amar'e last yr won 54 games. This year they are a sub .500 team. Lee is horrendous on defense and is a stat compiler on bad teams. Lee makes Amar'e look like Ben Wallace in comparison on the defensive side of the ball.

The Suns tried to replace Amare with a combination of SFs (Turkeyglue, Childress) and Warrick and traded away their 6th man. Losing Amare is definitely why they are worse this year, but they basically got a 7th/8th man (Warrick) to replace him and started playing end of the bench talents (Frye, Lopez, Turkeyglue-as a PF, Barron) extra minutes to fill in his departure.

 

[Kev4029]

The only advantage Amare seems to bring is his ability to maintain his high TS% with high usage, but that is somewhat tempered by his high TOV% and his lack of assists. Lee is clearly the superior rebounder and both are clearly awful on defense.

Not for nothing, but that's a huge difference and separates the superstars scorers from the second tier guys.Amar'e also wants the ball at the end of the game. I can't imagine what the Knicks would do at the end of a close game with the Lee in for Amar'e to ensure a decent shot.

The other sort of major difference is that Lee is more of a back to the basket player while Amar'e prefers to face the basket. It's a minor detail, but in D'Antoni's offense, it allows the Knicks to swing the ball quicker to weakside side corner 3 (which is their favorite shot especially for Chandler...I haven't looked at the stats but they've been getting the ball to that shooter much quicker this year than last) and has opened up the middle for Chandler and Gallo to drive (which Gallo was starting to do better before the knee sprain).

In any case, all this Stoudamire talk is pretty funny since the most important Knick so far has been Chandler. If he wins his matchup, the Knicks generally win. He's the best player on the table for any trade with Denver and I'm not sure he's even on the table anymore (and I'm not sure Fields is either...in a poor draft this year Fields would be a top 10 pick).

And Favors would be the number one pick. Also, as I mentioned yesterday, Gallo gets to the hoop less than twice a game, basically nobody gets there less than him.

ETA: Chandler isn't a particularly good trade piece because the Nuggs are looking to dump salary and build young and cheap, Chandler is going to want a 5yr/50mil type of contract, and hes probably not worth that. At best hes a 3rd banana on a championship contender but probably more like a 4th banana. You don't win championships signing guys like Chandler to big contracts while building a team, he may be worth 10/yr to a team with a couple stars, but hes not worth that to a building team.

 

[TommyGilmore]

There's no such thing as long-term building approach in the NBA. Either you have a top-10 player or you don't. And if you don't, you're 35-47 every year.

Just curious.....would you consider Brandon Roy (2008-2010) to be a top-10 player?What about Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, and Stephen Jackson?

 

[Kev4029]

There's no such thing as long-term building approach in the NBA. Either you have a top-10 player or you don't. And if you don't, you're 35-47 every year.

Just curious.....would you consider Brandon Roy (2008-2010) to be a top-10 player?What about Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, and Stephen Jackson?

Roy from 07-08 to 09-10 was either a top 10 player or very close, but he was drafted with teams knowing he had bum kneesDavis was probably top 25 from 03-04 to 07-08 but nowhere even close to top 10Ellis is top 50 this year, but not anywhere near top 25Jackson has never been a top 50 player and has probably floated most of his career around the end of the top 100

 

[Kiddnets]

Another impediment, reports Adrian Wojnarowski, is the Nuggets' anger with leaks of trade details. So angry, Woj reports, that Denver threatened to trade 'Melo to the Knicks



Shut up or we'll take a crappier deal!

 

[Kev4029]

Another impediment, reports Adrian Wojnarowski, is the Nuggets' anger with leaks of trade details. So angry, Woj reports, that Denver threatened to trade 'Melo to the Knicks Shut up or we'll take a crappier deal!

I'm getting a little nervous about this deal, I really want the Nets and Nuggets to get this done. I would love to drop Harrington's contract on the Nets (for Vujacic) but I'm thinking that it could be a deal breaker for NJ for some reason.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Wow. Harrington has an abortion of a contract. Had no idea it was that bad.

 

[Kev4029]

Wow. Harrington has an abortion of a contract. Had no idea it was that bad.

Its not quite as bad as it looks, each of the final years are only half guaranteed. If he can give you 15 and 5 off the bench in 25 mpg while playing adequate defense (which he has done all year) hes worth 6 million a year.

 

[Kiddnets]

Wow. Harrington has an abortion of a contract. Had no idea it was that bad.

Its not quite as bad as it looks, each of the final years are only half guaranteed. If he can give you 15 and 5 off the bench in 25 mpg while playing adequate defense (which he has done all year) hes worth 6 million a year.

Its a dealbreaker for NJ to take it..they want flexibility for Paul in 2012 - they are looking for a 4th team and I just dont see it happening....greed is not good in this matter...its going to collapse and Denver fans should hang their GM/owner - can't solve al your problems in 1 trade.

 

[Kev4029]

Wow. Harrington has an abortion of a contract. Had no idea it was that bad.

Its not quite as bad as it looks, each of the final years are only half guaranteed. If he can give you 15 and 5 off the bench in 25 mpg while playing adequate defense (which he has done all year) hes worth 6 million a year.

Its a dealbreaker for NJ to take it..they want flexibility for Paul in 2012 - they are looking for a 4th team and I just dont see it happening....greed is not good in this matter...its going to collapse and Denver fans should hang their GM/owner - can't solve al your problems in 1 trade.

I agree, if this falls through because of Harrington, I'm going to be pissed. I have to imagine a team looking to make a run in the playoffs would be willing to take on Harrington's contract for a solid 6th man. If the Nuggs hurry up and get this done they will have over a month to find teams to dump Anderson, Harrington, Martin and Harris on.ETA: A JR+Harrington for Butler swap would work, Orlando could take on Harrington with their trade exception, if Perkins isn't healthy a Perkins for Harrington swap works, Marcus Banks (Hornets) for Harrington works

 

[Kiddnets]

Wow. Harrington has an abortion of a contract. Had no idea it was that bad.

Its not quite as bad as it looks, each of the final years are only half guaranteed. If he can give you 15 and 5 off the bench in 25 mpg while playing adequate defense (which he has done all year) hes worth 6 million a year.

Its a dealbreaker for NJ to take it..they want flexibility for Paul in 2012 - they are looking for a 4th team and I just dont see it happening....greed is not good in this matter...its going to collapse and Denver fans should hang their GM/owner - can't solve al your problems in 1 trade.

I agree, if this falls through because of Harrington, I'm going to be pissed. I have to imagine a team looking to make a run in the playoffs would be willing to take on Harrington's contract for a solid 6th man. If the Nuggs hurry up and get this done they will have over a month to find teams to dump Anderson, Harrington, Martin and Harris on.

thats the other reason to get it done...if they wait and it falls through they are not going to have time to get anything nearly as good....already reported Houston and NYK waiting like vultures to pounce at the last minute for way less than whats being discussed. Not to mention its just awful for all the franchises involved - all are losing, all getting bombarded with questions and rumors, Melo being booed at home...this is getting ugly yet Denver GM/owner acting like a virgin on prom night.

 

[Redwes25]

Wow. Harrington has an abortion of a contract. Had no idea it was that bad.

Its not quite as bad as it looks, each of the final years are only half guaranteed. If he can give you 15 and 5 off the bench in 25 mpg while playing adequate defense (which he has done all year) hes worth 6 million a year.

Its a dealbreaker for NJ to take it..they want flexibility for Paul in 2012 - they are looking for a 4th team and I just dont see it happening....greed is not good in this matter...its going to collapse and Denver fans should hang their GM/owner - can't solve al your problems in 1 trade.

I agree, if this falls through because of Harrington, I'm going to be pissed. I have to imagine a team looking to make a run in the playoffs would be willing to take on Harrington's contract for a solid 6th man. If the Nuggs hurry up and get this done they will have over a month to find teams to dump Anderson, Harrington, Martin and Harris on.ETA: A JR+Harrington for Butler swap would work, Orlando could take on Harrington with their trade exception, if Perkins isn't healthy a Perkins for Harrington swap works, Marcus Banks (Hornets) for Harrington works

No one wants Harrington. That is a horrible contract and he doesn't add much.

 

[biggamer3]

Kev, all biases aside, was Kenyon Martins deal one of the worst contracts in recent history?

If the Nugs didnt give him all that money i am sure they could have spent that money on a real good talent to compliment the squad of Melo, Billups, Nene over the years and could have been real contenders the past few years.

I remember right after he signed it i thought he was not even close to worth that kind of money. Kidd made him look great with those alley oops. And as a Nuggets fan i would boo him nonstop for the comments he made preseason about not rushing back at all. They give you boatloads of money and you are injured all the time and you cant hurry back?!

 

[Kev4029]

Kev, all biases aside, was Kenyon Martins deal one of the worst contracts in recent history?If the Nugs didnt give him all that money i am sure they could have spent that money on a real good talent to compliment the squad of Melo, Billups, Nene over the years and could have been real contenders the past few years.I remember right after he signed it i thought he was not even close to worth that kind of money. Kidd made him look great with those alley oops. And as a Nuggets fan i would boo him nonstop for the comments he made preseason about not rushing back at all. They give you boatloads of money and you are injured all the time and you cant hurry back?!

It was a horrible contract that has killed the Nuggets. I think most fans felt they were overpaying but there was pressure from the fans to spend all of the money they had on something and at the time he was the best free agent around. And not only did the Nuggets waste 7 years and 100 million dollars, they also sent either 3 or 4 picks to the Nets in the sign and trade. I wouldn't say its the worst contact ever but its got to be close to top 5. The hate for him has gotten out of hand around here though. When healthy he has been a good player and you can't really blame him for taking the money. Before this year Martin has always given his all to get back quickly from injuries and I think he came back too quickly a couple times making his injuries worse in the long run. He should have never said he wasn't going to hurry back this year, but I can't bla.me him for thinking it because it sounded like Melo was going to be gone and Denver wasn't having any discussions for extending Martin.I thought they should have gone after Ginobili (what I was hoping for at the time)the season they signed Martin because we already had Nene and Camby and we were starting Voshon Lenard at 2. Andre Miller, Manu, Melo, Nene and Camby could have won a title. That would have saved them draft picks and 5 million a year.

 

[Kiddnets]

Kev, all biases aside, was Kenyon Martins deal one of the worst contracts in recent history?If the Nugs didnt give him all that money i am sure they could have spent that money on a real good talent to compliment the squad of Melo, Billups, Nene over the years and could have been real contenders the past few years.I remember right after he signed it i thought he was not even close to worth that kind of money. Kidd made him look great with those alley oops. And as a Nuggets fan i would boo him nonstop for the comments he made preseason about not rushing back at all. They give you boatloads of money and you are injured all the time and you cant hurry back?!

It was a horrible contract that has killed the Nuggets. I think most fans felt they were overpaying but there was pressure from the fans to spend all of the money they had on something and at the time he was the best free agent around. And not only did the Nuggets waste 7 years and 100 million dollars, they also sent either 3 or 4 picks to the Nets in the sign and trade. I wouldn't say its the worst contact ever but its got to be close to top 5. The hate for him has gotten out of hand around here though. When healthy he has been a good player and you can't really blame him for taking the money. Before this year Martin has always given his all to get back quickly from injuries and I think he came back too quickly a couple times making his injuries worse in the long run. He should have never said he wasn't going to hurry back this year, but I can't bla.me him for thinking it because it sounded like Melo was going to be gone and Denver wasn't having any discussions for extending Martin.I thought they should have gone after Ginobili (what I was hoping for at the time)the season they signed Martin because we already had Nene and Camby and we were starting Voshon Lenard at 2. Andre Miller, Manu, Melo, Nene and Camby could have won a title. That would have saved them draft picks and 5 million a year.

I was a huge K-Mart fan....was so upset when the Nets let him go...I know he had some health issues before the contract but no one saw his complete breakdown...if he stayed healthy he would have been a nice player but not worth $100M......Nets screwed Denver on that deal (got them VC) and now Denver is trying to return the "Favors" LOL

 

[biggamer3]

Kev, all biases aside, was Kenyon Martins deal one of the worst contracts in recent history?

If the Nugs didnt give him all that money i am sure they could have spent that money on a real good talent to compliment the squad of Melo, Billups, Nene over the years and could have been real contenders the past few years.

I remember right after he signed it i thought he was not even close to worth that kind of money. Kidd made him look great with those alley oops. And as a Nuggets fan i would boo him nonstop for the comments he made preseason about not rushing back at all. They give you boatloads of money and you are injured all the time and you cant hurry back?!

It was a horrible contract that has killed the Nuggets. I think most fans felt they were overpaying but there was pressure from the fans to spend all of the money they had on something and at the time he was the best free agent around. And not only did the Nuggets waste 7 years and 100 million dollars, they also sent either 3 or 4 picks to the Nets in the sign and trade. I wouldn't say its the worst contact ever but its got to be close to top 5. The hate for him has gotten out of hand around here though. When healthy he has been a good player and you can't really blame him for taking the money. Before this year Martin has always given his all to get back quickly from injuries and I think he came back too quickly a couple times making his injuries worse in the long run. He should have never said he wasn't going to hurry back this year, but I can't bla.me him for thinking it because it sounded like Melo was going to be gone and Denver wasn't having any discussions for extending Martin.

I thought they should have gone after Ginobili (what I was hoping for at the time)the season they signed Martin because we already had Nene and Camby and we were starting Voshon Lenard at 2. Andre Miller, Manu, Melo, Nene and Camby could have won a title. That would have saved them draft picks and 5 million a year.

Abso FREAKING LutelyThat would have been a great lineup. Not sure why them and the Clippers wanted to get rid of Camby for nothing. Camby was my favorite Knick from the Post Ewing era, wish he still comes back for a year or 2.

As for Martin, why the F should any team extend him, dude stole 100M and he has a beef with management? Seems like such a bad person IMO.

PS The Spurs have some sort of voodoo magic on their players, no good one ever wants to leave SA, ever

 

[Kev4029]

Kev, all biases aside, was Kenyon Martins deal one of the worst contracts in recent history?

If the Nugs didnt give him all that money i am sure they could have spent that money on a real good talent to compliment the squad of Melo, Billups, Nene over the years and could have been real contenders the past few years.

I remember right after he signed it i thought he was not even close to worth that kind of money. Kidd made him look great with those alley oops. And as a Nuggets fan i would boo him nonstop for the comments he made preseason about not rushing back at all. They give you boatloads of money and you are injured all the time and you cant hurry back?!

It was a horrible contract that has killed the Nuggets. I think most fans felt they were overpaying but there was pressure from the fans to spend all of the money they had on something and at the time he was the best free agent around. And not only did the Nuggets waste 7 years and 100 million dollars, they also sent either 3 or 4 picks to the Nets in the sign and trade. I wouldn't say its the worst contact ever but its got to be close to top 5. The hate for him has gotten out of hand around here though. When healthy he has been a good player and you can't really blame him for taking the money. Before this year Martin has always given his all to get back quickly from injuries and I think he came back too quickly a couple times making his injuries worse in the long run. He should have never said he wasn't going to hurry back this year, but I can't bla.me him for thinking it because it sounded like Melo was going to be gone and Denver wasn't having any discussions for extending Martin.

I thought they should have gone after Ginobili (what I was hoping for at the time)the season they signed Martin because we already had Nene and Camby and we were starting Voshon Lenard at 2. Andre Miller, Manu, Melo, Nene and Camby could have won a title. That would have saved them draft picks and 5 million a year.

Abso FREAKING LutelyThat would have been a great lineup. Not sure why them and the Clippers wanted to get rid of Camby for nothing. Camby was my favorite Knick from the Post Ewing era, wish he still comes back for a year or 2.

As for Martin, why the F should any team extend him, dude stole 100M and he has a beef with management? Seems like such a bad person IMO.

PS The Spurs have some sort of voodoo magic on their players, no good one ever wants to leave SA, ever

That's kind of the general consensus in Colorado as well, but I think he would be a very good signing for somebody on a 3 yr/15-18 million dollar deal because hes so athletic even at 32 or whatever he is and defends PFs like few in the NBA can. If this who Melo thing never went down I bet the Nuggets would have extended him once he got back on the court but he serves very little value for a young ####ty team. And you're right, I think he is a bad person, but he brings that ganster swagger on the court and intimidates opposing players. I've always been a little disappointed that he wasn't playing the night of that Knicks/Nuggets brawl because he would have gone all Ron Artest on the entire Knicks roster and he would have dropped Nate Robinson and Mardy Collins. Instead, Melo slapped Collins and ran away.... what could have been.

 

[the moops]

Andre Miller, Manu, Melo, Nene and Camby could have won a title.

They could go deep into the playoffs, but I doubt they could win a title.

 

[Kev4029]

Andre Miller, Manu, Melo, Nene and Camby could have won a title.

They could go deep into the playoffs, but I doubt they could win a title.

They signed Martin in 04-05 and SA won the title in 04-05 and 06-07. In 04-05 Voshon Lenard was hurt most of the year so the Nuggets split about equal time at SG between Greg Buckner and Dermarr Johnson with cameos from Wesley Person, Bryon Russell (played SF/SG) and Rodney White (played mostly SF) who had PERs of 13.7,14.0, 15.6, 11.8 and 14.0 respectively - Ginobili had a PER of 22.3. It would have given the Nuggets a superior lineup to what they had and it also would have made SA an inferior team at the same time. They may not have won a title, but they would have been a whole lot better off and they would have had extra money to go get a suitable back up PF/C.

 

[saintfool]

PS The Spurs have some sort of voodoo magic on their players, no good one ever wants to leave SA, ever

having a great front office, coach and players around you will do that.

 

[Kev4029]

PS The Spurs have some sort of voodoo magic on their players, no good one ever wants to leave SA, ever

having a great front office, coach and players around you will do that.

And they are all foreigners who don't have tons of good friends around the league in AAU ball and they don't have a city or region in the US they call home. I would say that is a HUGE part of it too.

 

[Juxtatarot]

PS The Spurs have some sort of voodoo magic on their players, no good one ever wants to leave SA, ever

having a great front office, coach and players around you will do that.

And they are all foreigners who don't have tons of good friends around the league in AAU ball and they don't have a city or region in the US they call home. I would say that is a HUGE part of it too.

And it's warm there.

 

[saintfool]

PS The Spurs have some sort of voodoo magic on their players, no good one ever wants to leave SA, ever

having a great front office, coach and players around you will do that.

And they are all foreigners who don't have tons of good friends around the league in AAU ball and they don't have a city or region in the US they call home. I would say that is a HUGE part of it too.

i think there is something to it being a small market team, of course, but they've been rock solid for 20+ years now. even when larry brown was coaching, he wasn't a total d-bag. they had good players and were largely very competitive season after season in that span of time. ownership in time - red mccombs and peter holt - have been good too. they're not stingy either.

 

[Kev4029]

PS The Spurs have some sort of voodoo magic on their players, no good one ever wants to leave SA, ever

having a great front office, coach and players around you will do that.

And they are all foreigners who don't have tons of good friends around the league in AAU ball and they don't have a city or region in the US they call home. I would say that is a HUGE part of it too.

i think there is something to it being a small market team, of course, but they've been rock solid for 20+ years now. even when larry brown was coaching, he wasn't a total d-bag. they had good players and were largely very competitive season after season in that span of time. ownership in time - red mccombs and peter holt - have been good too. they're not stingy either.

The Spurs definitely run their organization right, I don't think anybody would argue with you. They are going to start having issues from next year forward though. Duncan is in the last year of his giant contract making $21 million, Parker will be making something like $12 million, Manu will be making $13 million, Jefferson will be making $9 million, McDyess will be making $5 million. I don't think the Spurs can sustain that and within 2-3 years Manu, Duncan, and Jefferson will be at the end of their careers (as well as McDyess) and Parker will be heading down hill as a PG who relies on quickness to be effective and who can't shoot. I'm interested in seeing what the Spurs do over the next couple years.

 

[No. 16]

There's no such thing as long-term building approach in the NBA. Either you have a top-10 player or you don't. And if you don't, you're 35-47 every year.

Just curious.....would you consider Brandon Roy (2008-2010) to be a top-10 player?What about Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, and Stephen Jackson?

Roy from 07-08 to 09-10 was either a top 10 player or very close, but he was drafted with teams knowing he had bum kneesDavis was probably top 25 from 03-04 to 07-08 but nowhere even close to top 10

Ellis is top 50 this year, but not anywhere near top 25

Jackson has never been a top 50 player and has probably floated most of his career around the end of the top 100

Ellis is not Top 50 this year?Please list 25 players you would rather have over Ellis. To say Ellis is NO WHERE near top 25 is ridiculous. That means of the 30 teams in the NBA Ellis would NOT be the best player or 2nd best player on 25 of them?

 

[Kev4029]

There's no such thing as long-term building approach in the NBA. Either you have a top-10 player or you don't. And if you don't, you're 35-47 every year.

Just curious.....would you consider Brandon Roy (2008-2010) to be a top-10 player?What about Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, and Stephen Jackson?

Roy from 07-08 to 09-10 was either a top 10 player or very close, but he was drafted with teams knowing he had bum kneesDavis was probably top 25 from 03-04 to 07-08 but nowhere even close to top 10

Ellis is top 50 this year, but not anywhere near top 25

Jackson has never been a top 50 player and has probably floated most of his career around the end of the top 100

Ellis is not Top 50 this year?Please list 25 players you would rather have over Ellis. To say Ellis is NO WHERE near top 25 is ridiculous. That means of the 30 teams in the NBA Ellis would NOT be the best player or 2nd best player on 25 of them?

Alright... here we go! (guys in parentheses are better in my eyes, but there wouldn't be much of a consensus) PG: Paul, Westbrook, Rose, Williams, Rondo, Parker, Nash

SG: Wade, Kobe, Manu, Martin, Roy, Gordon, Joe Johnson, Igudola

SF: Melo, Lebron, Durant, Pierce, Gay, Granger, Wallace

PF: Dirk, Griffin, Love, Amare, Pau, Boozer, Garnett, Bosh, Josh Smith, Randolph, Millsap

C: Howard, Noah, Horford, Duncan, Bynum, Lee and I'm putting Nene right here because it makes me feel better about the future of the Nuggets

I think that is 40 and there are another dozen or so guys that are close (Curry, West, Aldridge, Scola....)

ETA: I'm a little confused... so I want to clarify this, I said he was top 50 but NOT top 25.

 

[saintfool]

The Spurs definitely run their organization right, I don't think anybody would argue with you. They are going to start having issues from next year forward though. Duncan is in the last year of his giant contract making $21 million, Parker will be making something like $12 million, Manu will be making $13 million, Jefferson will be making $9 million, McDyess will be making $5 million. I don't think the Spurs can sustain that and within 2-3 years Manu, Duncan, and Jefferson will be at the end of their careers (as well as McDyess) and Parker will be heading down hill as a PG who relies on quickness to be effective and who can't shoot. I'm interested in seeing what the Spurs do over the next couple years.

i could easily see timmy walking away from the game and not look back. i could also see him renegotiate his contract to add a few years - maybe with some clauses that favor him - if he's enjoying himself, the body seems to be holding up, and the spurs remain competitive. manu's contract raises some eyebrows, certainly at his age and style of play, but i'm not going to second guess him just yet. parker's contract extension is only 4 years more and puts him with the team until he's the ripe old age of 32. i don't think there is any reason to think he'll be in rapid decline in the next 4 years based on age. he's a fine shooter in the short and mid-range game and with top 10 TS% for his position actually. interestingly, jefferson's contract isn't truly awful like most think. hollinger breaks it down:

Follow the money, however. Jefferson's opt-out and lower-salaried return means the Spurs will save about $17 million in salary, luxury tax and tax distributions this year (if one presumes Splitter was coming regardless). Jefferson's new deal cost $31 million after this season, which is all we care about since the Spurs were paying him in 2010-11 either way. Subtract $17 million from $31 million and you end up with Jefferson's deal as a three-year, $14 million extension, which seems eminently reasonable … if you were going to prearrange such a thing.

they have building blocks for the future in splitter and hill that will keep them rolling along, i think. nevermind they seem to have a knack for drafting and crafting good players.

 

[LHUCKS]

There's no such thing as long-term building approach in the NBA. Either you have a top-10 player or you don't. And if you don't, you're 35-47 every year.

Just curious.....would you consider Brandon Roy (2008-2010) to be a top-10 player?What about Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, and Stephen Jackson?

Roy from 07-08 to 09-10 was either a top 10 player or very close, but he was drafted with teams knowing he had bum kneesDavis was probably top 25 from 03-04 to 07-08 but nowhere even close to top 10

Ellis is top 50 this year, but not anywhere near top 25

Jackson has never been a top 50 player and has probably floated most of his career around the end of the top 100

Ellis is not Top 50 this year?Please list 25 players you would rather have over Ellis. To say Ellis is NO WHERE near top 25 is ridiculous. That means of the 30 teams in the NBA Ellis would NOT be the best player or 2nd best player on 25 of them?

Alright... here we go! (guys in parentheses are better in my eyes, but there wouldn't be much of a consensus) PG: Paul, Westbrook, Rose, Williams, Rondo, Parker, Nash

SG: Wade, Kobe, Manu, Martin, Roy, Gordon, Joe Johnson, Igudola

SF: Melo, Lebron, Durant, Pierce, Gay, Granger, Wallace

PF: Dirk, Griffin, Love, Amare, Pau, Boozer, Garnett, Bosh, Josh Smith, Randolph, Millsap

C: Howard, Noah, Horford, Duncan, Bynum, Lee and I'm putting Nene right here because it makes me feel better about the future of the Nuggets

I think that is 40 and there are another dozen or so guys that are close (Curry, West, Aldridge, Scola....)

ETA: I'm a little confused... so I want to clarify this, I said he was top 50 but NOT top 25.

Nene over Lopez?

 

[Kev4029]

Nene over Lopez?

This year absolutely, Lopez has been a joke. If I were drafting the entire NBA all over again I would surely pick Lopez of Nene (and Ellis for that matter). Hopefully this Melo trade (if it goes through) turns things around for Lopez.

 

[Kev4029]

The Spurs definitely run their organization right, I don't think anybody would argue with you. They are going to start having issues from next year forward though. Duncan is in the last year of his giant contract making $21 million, Parker will be making something like $12 million, Manu will be making $13 million, Jefferson will be making $9 million, McDyess will be making $5 million. I don't think the Spurs can sustain that and within 2-3 years Manu, Duncan, and Jefferson will be at the end of their careers (as well as McDyess) and Parker will be heading down hill as a PG who relies on quickness to be effective and who can't shoot. I'm interested in seeing what the Spurs do over the next couple years.

i could easily see timmy walking away from the game and not look back. i could also see him renegotiate his contract to add a few years - maybe with some clauses that favor him - if he's enjoying himself, the body seems to be holding up, and the spurs remain competitive. manu's contract raises some eyebrows, certainly at his age and style of play, but i'm not going to second guess him just yet. parker's contract extension is only 4 years more and puts him with the team until he's the ripe old age of 32. i don't think there is any reason to think he'll be in rapid decline in the next 4 years based on age. he's a fine shooter in the short and mid-range game and with top 10 TS% for his position actually. interestingly, jefferson's contract isn't truly awful like most think. hollinger breaks it down:

Follow the money, however. Jefferson's opt-out and lower-salaried return means the Spurs will save about $17 million in salary, luxury tax and tax distributions this year (if one presumes Splitter was coming regardless). Jefferson's new deal cost $31 million after this season, which is all we care about since the Spurs were paying him in 2010-11 either way. Subtract $17 million from $31 million and you end up with Jefferson's deal as a three-year, $14 million extension, which seems eminently reasonable … if you were going to prearrange such a thing.

they have building blocks for the future in splitter and hill that will keep them rolling along, i think. nevermind they seem to have a knack for drafting and crafting good players.

I wasn't really speaking on Jefferson's contract, just more of the fact that overall the team has lots of fairly big contracts, more so then every before.And I would expect Parker to have about as quick of a decline as any player in the NBA, he's one of the worst shooting PGs in the NBA but he is so quick and has so many nifty moves around the hoop that make him crazy effective. Hes got a crazy knack for floaters and such when he gets 10 or so feet away from the rim, but that will be hard to come by when you can't get around your man. Take a look at his shooting numbers.

 

[Steelfan7]

Wow. Harrington has an abortion of a contract. Had no idea it was that bad.

Its not quite as bad as it looks, each of the final years are only half guaranteed. If he can give you 15 and 5 off the bench in 25 mpg while playing adequate defense (which he has done all year) hes worth 6 million a year.

Its a dealbreaker for NJ to take it..they want flexibility for Paul in 2012 - they are looking for a 4th team and I just dont see it happening....greed is not good in this matter...its going to collapse and Denver fans should hang their GM/owner - can't solve al your problems in 1 trade.

I agree, if this falls through because of Harrington, I'm going to be pissed. I have to imagine a team looking to make a run in the playoffs would be willing to take on Harrington's contract for a solid 6th man. If the Nuggs hurry up and get this done they will have over a month to find teams to dump Anderson, Harrington, Martin and Harris on.ETA: A JR+Harrington for Butler swap would work, Orlando could take on Harrington with their trade exception, if Perkins isn't healthy a Perkins for Harrington swap works, Marcus Banks (Hornets) for Harrington works

The phone must be ringing off the hook in Denver for teams that are lining up take Harrington off their hands. The dude is a chucker and a black hole on offense and sucks on defense and has a horrible contract, but other than that he's great. NJ has been jumping thru hoops to acquire Melo and the mere mention of Harrington included has put the brakes on the deal. That says a lot about Harrington's value.

 

[saintfool]

I wasn't really speaking on Jefferson's contract, just more of the fact that overall the team has lots of fairly big contracts, more so then every before.

And I would expect Parker to have about as quick of a decline as any player in the NBA, he's one of the worst shooting PGs in the NBA but he is so quick and has so many nifty moves around the hoop that make him crazy effective. Hes got a crazy knack for floaters and such when he gets 10 or so feet away from the rim, but that will be hard to come by when you can't get around your man. Take a look at his shooting numbers.

like i posted before, Tony's true shooting % for starting PG's in in the top 10. comparing him to other PGs? he has some of the best stats (top 5 or better) for shooting at the rim , 10 ft or less and 10-15 ft. it's beyond that where he drops off a cliff. you seem to think he'll lose more than a step between now and his physical prime when his contract expires at age 32, correct?

 

[Kev4029]

Wow. Harrington has an abortion of a contract. Had no idea it was that bad.

Its not quite as bad as it looks, each of the final years are only half guaranteed. If he can give you 15 and 5 off the bench in 25 mpg while playing adequate defense (which he has done all year) hes worth 6 million a year.

Its a dealbreaker for NJ to take it..they want flexibility for Paul in 2012 - they are looking for a 4th team and I just dont see it happening....greed is not good in this matter...its going to collapse and Denver fans should hang their GM/owner - can't solve al your problems in 1 trade.

I agree, if this falls through because of Harrington, I'm going to be pissed. I have to imagine a team looking to make a run in the playoffs would be willing to take on Harrington's contract for a solid 6th man. If the Nuggs hurry up and get this done they will have over a month to find teams to dump Anderson, Harrington, Martin and Harris on.ETA: A JR+Harrington for Butler swap would work, Orlando could take on Harrington with their trade exception, if Perkins isn't healthy a Perkins for Harrington swap works, Marcus Banks (Hornets) for Harrington works

The phone must be ringing off the hook in Denver for teams that are lining up take Harrington off their hands. The dude is a chucker and a black hole on offense and sucks on defense and has a horrible contract, but other than that he's great. NJ has been jumping thru hoops to acquire Melo and the mere mention of Harrington included has put the brakes on the deal. That says a lot about Harrington's value.

He truly hasn't been bad on defense with the Nuggets, I'm not saying hes been playing great defensively but hes been much better than advertised on that end. Playing in New York and Golden State really made him slack of defensively, whats the point of being the one guy playing defense on a team that plays none. I think the Nets don't want Harrington's contract because they are really planning on making a run at Paul.

 

[Steelfan7]

[He truly hasn't been bad on defense with the Nuggets, I'm not saying hes been playing great defensively but hes been much better than advertised on that end. Playing in New York and Golden State really made him slack of defensively, whats the point of being the one guy playing defense on a team that plays none. I think the Nets don't want Harrington's contract because they are really planning on making a run at Paul.

What was Harrington's excuse for his bad defense in Indiana?

 

[the moops]

I was just looking at Lebron and Wade's stats. On a per 36 basis, it is amazing how similar they are (besides a nice edge in rebounds by Lebron).

Link

 

[Kev4029]

[He truly hasn't been bad on defense with the Nuggets, I'm not saying hes been playing great defensively but hes been much better than advertised on that end. Playing in New York and Golden State really made him slack of defensively, whats the point of being the one guy playing defense on a team that plays none. I think the Nets don't want Harrington's contract because they are really planning on making a run at Paul.

What was Harrington's excuse for his bad defense in Indiana?

He wasn't a poor defender in Indiana, as younger player he got a good portion of his time because he was a good defender. He has evolved quite a bit as a player in the last 10 years.

 

[biggamer3]

There's no such thing as long-term building approach in the NBA. Either you have a top-10 player or you don't. And if you don't, you're 35-47 every year.

Just curious.....would you consider Brandon Roy (2008-2010) to be a top-10 player?What about Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, and Stephen Jackson?

Roy from 07-08 to 09-10 was either a top 10 player or very close, but he was drafted with teams knowing he had bum kneesDavis was probably top 25 from 03-04 to 07-08 but nowhere even close to top 10

Ellis is top 50 this year, but not anywhere near top 25

Jackson has never been a top 50 player and has probably floated most of his career around the end of the top 100

Ellis is not Top 50 this year?Please list 25 players you would rather have over Ellis. To say Ellis is NO WHERE near top 25 is ridiculous. That means of the 30 teams in the NBA Ellis would NOT be the best player or 2nd best player on 25 of them?

Alright... here we go! (guys in parentheses are better in my eyes, but there wouldn't be much of a consensus) PG: Paul, Westbrook, Rose, Williams, Rondo, Parker, Nash

SG: Wade, Kobe, Manu, Martin, Roy, Gordon, Joe Johnson, Igudola

SF: Melo, Lebron, Durant, Pierce, Gay, Granger, Wallace

PF: Dirk, Griffin, Love, Amare, Pau, Boozer, Garnett, Bosh, Josh Smith, Randolph, Millsap

C: Howard, Noah, Horford, Duncan, Bynum, Lee and I'm putting Nene right here because it makes me feel better about the future of the Nuggets

I think that is 40 and there are another dozen or so guys that are close (Curry, West, Aldridge, Scola....)

ETA: I'm a little confused... so I want to clarify this, I said he was top 50 but NOT top 25.

I am not the biggest Monta fan but the kid is dynamiteNo way i take Iggy, JJ, Gordon (wtf, ben? really?) Nash at his age, wallace, bynum over an established 25 PPG guy who shoots pretty well from field. Also Monta is at worst equal to Granger, Gay, Millsap and Nene

 

[the moops]

When Lebron and the Heat went to Cleveland, their records were

Miami 11-8

Cleveland 7-10

Since that game.

Miami 19-1

Cleveland 1-19

Ouch

 

[boubucarow]

I am not the biggest Monta fan but the kid is dynamiteNo way i take Iggy, JJ, Gordon (wtf, ben? really?) Nash at his age, wallace, bynum over an established 25 PPG guy who shoots pretty well from field. Also Monta is at worst equal to Granger, Gay, Millsap and Nene

That would have to be Eric Gordon.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The only advantage Amare seems to bring is his ability to maintain his high TS% with high usage, but that is somewhat tempered by his high TOV% and his lack of assists. Lee is clearly the superior rebounder and both are clearly awful on defense.

Not for nothing, but that's a huge difference and separates the superstars scorers from the second tier guys.Amar'e also wants the ball at the end of the game. I can't imagine what the Knicks would do at the end of a close game with the Lee in for Amar'e to ensure a decent shot. The other sort of major difference is that Lee is more of a back to the basket player while Amar'e prefers to face the basket. It's a minor detail, but in D'Antoni's offense, it allows the Knicks to swing the ball quicker to weakside side corner 3 (which is their favorite shot especially for Chandler...I haven't looked at the stats but they've been getting the ball to that shooter much quicker this year than last) and has opened up the middle for Chandler and Gallo to drive (which Gallo was starting to do better before the knee sprain).In any case, all this Stoudamire talk is pretty funny since the most important Knick so far has been Chandler. If he wins his matchup, the Knicks generally win. He's the best player on the table for any trade with Denver and I'm not sure he's even on the table anymore (and I'm not sure Fields is either...in a poor draft this year Fields would be a top 10 pick).

Wanting the ball at the end of games is really overrated. Kobe wants the ball probably the most of anyone in the league at the end of games and his clutch stats are quite poor. Lee ran a ton of PnR with NYK and was quite successful as well.I've heard the argument that Amare is opening the floor up and getting his teammates better shots than Lee would, but then why is not being reflected in his assist numbers?

 

[whitem0nkey]

 

[simmonjm]

The only advantage Amare seems to bring is his ability to maintain his high TS% with high usage, but that is somewhat tempered by his high TOV% and his lack of assists. Lee is clearly the superior rebounder and both are clearly awful on defense.

Not for nothing, but that's a huge difference and separates the superstars scorers from the second tier guys.Amar'e also wants the ball at the end of the game. I can't imagine what the Knicks would do at the end of a close game with the Lee in for Amar'e to ensure a decent shot. The other sort of major difference is that Lee is more of a back to the basket player while Amar'e prefers to face the basket. It's a minor detail, but in D'Antoni's offense, it allows the Knicks to swing the ball quicker to weakside side corner 3 (which is their favorite shot especially for Chandler...I haven't looked at the stats but they've been getting the ball to that shooter much quicker this year than last) and has opened up the middle for Chandler and Gallo to drive (which Gallo was starting to do better before the knee sprain).In any case, all this Stoudamire talk is pretty funny since the most important Knick so far has been Chandler. If he wins his matchup, the Knicks generally win. He's the best player on the table for any trade with Denver and I'm not sure he's even on the table anymore (and I'm not sure Fields is either...in a poor draft this year Fields would be a top 10 pick).

Wanting the ball at the end of games is really overrated. Kobe wants the ball probably the most of anyone in the league at the end of games and his clutch stats are quite poor. Lee ran a ton of PnR with NYK and was quite successful as well.I've heard the argument that Amare is opening the floor up and getting his teammates better shots than Lee would, but then why is not being reflected in his assist numbers?

Amare is averaging 2.6 assists a game much higher than his career average while at Phx. Over the course of the season I expect his assist total to go up as he gets more comfortable with teammates namely Landry Fields. For a point of reference David Lee averaged 3.6 assists in 2009 and 2.1 in 2008.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Even though Stacey King says the same things over and over, I get a kick out of him.

 

[whitem0nkey]

He has grown on me, big fan of him now. Stacey King Soundboard, I wanna go higher!