Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
Do you mean the Heat's hypothetical 66 wins are "better" than the 08 Cavs 66 wins?
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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff Clavin
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boubucarow
Footballguy
There is a point of diminishing returns. The problem with the LeBron Cavs is that they built around one player with a group of very flawed players. Every other person on that team needed a elite caliber player to consistently play at an efficient offensive level. LeBron has been more consistently elite than any player in the league for a while now. So the team was a success most of the time. However, a team like will have strong issues in the playoffs when playing teams that have strong defenses and much stronger supporting casts. If Pierce is not playing well, the Celtics had three other options that could carry the team for stretches. Same with Kobe. The Cavs did not have a 2nd or 3rd option they could count on in a majority of instances. The take that best regular season means best team so LeBron must have came up short in the playoffs is very simple minded. Playing the top teams maybe 25% of the season is no where near the same as a 7 game series against the best teams in the league. Some teams are built to be elite regular season teams but not elite playoff teams. The Cavs were one of those teams.
Yeah a team like that can make the Finals, but they are one elite team away from being shown the door. Sometimes there is only one elite team in the league and sometimes there aren't any.
No. 16
Footballguy
Other examples of < 6.7 million....2010 FA
Kyle Lowry (6)
Nate Robinson (4.5)
CJ Watson (3.3)
Steve Blake (4)
Farmar (4)
Tony Allen (3.3)
Anthony Morrow (4)
Ronnie Brewer (4)
JJ Redick (6.3)
Randy Foye (4.25)
Mike Miller (5)
Dorell Wright (4)
Matt Barnes (1.8)
Kyle Korver (5)
Josh Howard (4)
Drew Gooden (6.4)
Haslem (4)
Brad Miller (5)
SHAQ (1.4)
Z (1.4)
Petro (3.3)
Joel Anthony (3.6)
Frye (6)
2009
Ariza (6.2)
Brandon Bass (4.5)
Jarrett Jack (5)
Chris Andersen (5)
Those are most of the players making less than 6.7 signed the past two years. Lots of crap there like you pointed out but there are some solid players too. I would take Lee plus Bass, Ariza, Morrow, Wright, Lowry, and Reddick over just Amare alone. Not saying the Knicks should have done that, but just comparing Amare and Lee considering their production vs contract value.
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Sammy3469
Footballguy
That too (Miami's "strength" this year is much greater than Cleveland's last year), but I was more referring to bob's statement below that WS are hard to divvy up especially as teams get better.
No. 16
Footballguy
I'm not saying Ellis is a Top 25 player, but I think he's definitely in the discussion and not "no where" near the Top 25. Basically, I think he is closer to Top 25 than he is being the 50th best player in the NBA. Ellis gets a bad rap on defense, but that's because he's defending bigger SGs and even then I'll consider him an average defender at the 2 guard spot. Find him an Eric Snow type PG to defend SGs and I'll say that Ellis can be considered an above average defender when guarding PGs.I'll say this again, the Monta Ellis of last year is no where near the discussion of Top 25 or as being a legit defender, but the Monta Ellis of this year is certainly worthy of that praise. He's arguably a Top 10 guard, IMO.
Monta Ellis 2011 82games.com
I'm not a big fan of PER since it rewards chucking the rock (it will suffice in comparing box score stats), but 82 games is the only website that breaks down Player vs Opponent production and it uses PER so I have no choice (+/-, and DWS, dRTG are all team figures while the player is on the court) and the data shows that Monta of this year is actually a "plus" vs opponents at the PG and SG spot.
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biggamer3
Footballguy
Lol at the guy who said Knicks could have had David Lee and morrow and ariza. They have enough swing men and shooters. Knicks needed a star and Amare was the only one after big 3.
This Knicks team with Boozer even would barely be above .500
This Dirk injury clearly shows how much of an mvp he is. Without him the mavs are a 25 win team tops
This Knicks team with Boozer even would barely be above .500
This Dirk injury clearly shows how much of an mvp he is. Without him the mavs are a 25 win team tops
timschochet
Footballguy
Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
By what measure are the Heat much greater than the Cavs the past two years? OFF RATING
112.4
111.2
111.1
DEF RATING
102.4
104.1
100.7
SRS
8.68
6.17
8.54
The 08-10 Cavs had better offenses and the the 08 Cavs had a higher SRS.
saintfool
Dead sexy
caron butler's been out too.
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Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
Its it is pretty funny that Lebron and a "bunch of scrubs" offense beats the Lebron + Wade + Bosh offense.
I guess its hard to ignore his teammates leading the league in 3pt shooting when its part of a formula.
I guess its hard to ignore his teammates leading the league in 3pt shooting when its part of a formula.
Voice Of Reason
Footballguy
lol @ this.Lee + Morrow > Amare. The Knicks don't have enough swing men and shooters, considering the fact that they go about 7 deep into the rotation when healthy.
biggamer3
Footballguy
Huh u kidding right? if the warriors had morrow still you think the Knicks would accept Lee and morrow for Amare ?!Shawn Williams leads nba in 3's and Bill Walker is a solid bench scorer. No room for morrow even when Gallo is back this week. Knicks need a backup pg and a center, that's it not a shooter
Moe.
Footballguy
He will end up being very good. Few players do as good of a job defending Durant as Batum. I'd like to see him leave the division.
Redwes25
Footballguy
I totally agree. Having watched the knicks the last few years where the only bright spot was Lee what this teamed needed was someone to run the offense through. Lee is a good player but no way is he a plus offensive player.
Voice Of Reason
Footballguy
I don't think the Knicks would accept that trade, however, the logic that the Knicks wouldn't do it makes it right is laughable. And the Knicks certainly could use Morrow, but you are right they need a backup PG and C more. Morrow was used as an example of a player that could be obtained with the difference between salaries between Lee and Stoudamire, the Knicks should have put that money towards their most pressing need.
the moops
Footballguy
Williams has only taken 48 three pointers. I wouldn't get too excited about him and his 50%+ three point shooting. And Bill Walker is playing 12 minutes a game and is still struggling grasping anything. The guy is a great athlete, but a complete dolt with negative basketball IQ.I'm not a huge Morrow fan, and Lee has his own issues, so I wouldnt make the deal. But it is 100% because of Amare and has nothing to do with freakin Shawne Williams and Bill Walker, both who are easily replaceable.
Chandler is only 23 and is shooting 49% and 38% from 3 and is scoring 18 ppg and 1.5 blocks/game. Chandler's game is already where you hope Batum's will become.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
If you have the choice between Barbosa and Crawford as your sixth man, who do you take? For this year? For the next 3?
They're putting on a good show tonight.
They're putting on a good show tonight.
simmonjm
Footballguy
This argument got a bit sidetracked, prior to the start of the season right after the Lee sign and trade and Amare signing No16 (Huge Warriors fan) made the point that Lee provided more value than Amare. He based his argument on the fact that Lee's salary was 6-7 mil less which equates to a MLE. Morrow who has proven to be one of the better mid level salary players was handpicked to validate his argument. Even with Morrow (who IMO is a huge value at his current contract not typical of a mid level salary player) combined with Lee there is no way they are equal to Amare. The NBA is a star driven league and superstars create mismatches on the floor. Amare commands a double team and is able to kick the ball out to wide open teammates thus making his teammates better. David Lee/Anthony Morrow on their best days do not command double teams and are great role players but do not make teammates better. The Knicks would be nowhere close to .500 with Morrow and Lee in place of Amare.
the moops
Footballguy
Down to 10 at halftime
No. 16
Footballguy
To clear things up I didn't handpick Morrow. If you check the latest post I brought up a bunch of other names that cost less than 6.7 million such as Ariza, Bass, Kyle Lowry, and Dorell Wright. Those are all solid players signed for less than the difference of Lee and Amare. Also, it was brought up because some mentioned players like Artest, JOneal, and other scrubs to justify Amare > Lee + 6.7 million player.
simmonjm
Footballguy
Point still stands Ariza, Bass, Lowry, or even Wright with David Lee do not equate to Amare.
JbizzleMan
Footballguy
Anyone else watching Kobe close out this game like only the Black Mamba can? 
timschochet
Footballguy
Darn it Heat, you're supposed to win games like this...
No. 16
Footballguy
Different strokes for different folks.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
17 in the last 5 minutes. The Closer.Anyone else watching Kobe close out this game like only the Black Mamba can?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
The Amare signing has been a huge success, and I agree with the arguments that players who require double teams are invaluable, but Wright has been phenomenal in GS this year. I'd be very tempted to take the Lee/Wright/Bass/Ariza/Lowery package over Amare. Add another max player and you've got a very solid core.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Heat are 30 and 10. I need them to go 36 and 6 the rest of the way to win the bet.
What are my odds?
What are my odds?
biggamer3
Footballguy
Shawn went 7-8 from 3 tonight.Holy crap can this guy shoot the lights out.Where was this kid until now? I see he was a first round pick in 2006
simmonjm
Footballguy
Played for Pacers had some off court issues and briefly played in Dallas. If im not mistaken Walsh originally drafted him.
simmonjm
Footballguy
I think they keep pace until the end of the season and guys like Bron, Wade, and Bosh get their much deserved rest. Lets say 35%
biggamer3
Footballguy
I wasn't in the trade everyone to get Melo camp before but today I thought the Knicks have to do that.
If the Knicks offer Fields, Chandler and Gallo for Melo the Nuggs IMO will take it even without the first rounder they really want.
A starting lineup of Felton, Walker, Melo, Amare and Turiaf with Randolph, Douglas, Shawn Williams would get the Knicks just as far as current roster and with Walker and Williams showing signs of life the team wouldnt be completely gutted to 3 players.
We gotta get Melo at all costs
If the Knicks offer Fields, Chandler and Gallo for Melo the Nuggs IMO will take it even without the first rounder they really want.
A starting lineup of Felton, Walker, Melo, Amare and Turiaf with Randolph, Douglas, Shawn Williams would get the Knicks just as far as current roster and with Walker and Williams showing signs of life the team wouldnt be completely gutted to 3 players.
We gotta get Melo at all costs
No. 16
Footballguy
You gotta be fishing? You don't really think that helps the Knicks right?Amare, Turiaf, and Anthony Randolph manning the 4/5 spots? Trading away two of your best defenders (Fields/Chandler)?Be happy that you're not running the Knicks.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Durant has averaged 27.3 points and 7.4 rebounds against Batum (both above his career averages). His FG% is slightly down but his 3-point % is quite a bit higher.Batum is just another overrated Portland role player.
Voice Of Reason
Footballguy
Perhaps Amare is drawing double teams, but he seems unable to get the ball to his teammates due to his low assist numbers. He is likely to be turning it over more often when doubled, based on his TOV%.simmonjm said:
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Amar'e assists numbers don't tell the whole story. You only get assists if your direct pass leads to a basket. Ball movement has been huge for the Knicks this yr compared to the last 5. Second swing pass to the corner has been a big weapon for them this yr.
Kev4029
Footballguy
The proposed NJ deal would still be far superior. I think we'll find that some of Landry's stats are a bit of a mirage, he was a 34% 3 point shooter in college and while his overall statistics look fairly good this year, I would imagine his rebounding stats would take a huge hit if there was another acceptable rebounder on the entire front court. He is your classic energy/hustle guy with middling athletic ability. Those types are great to have, no doubt, but they are much more valuable to good teams than they are to bad ones (which the Nuggets will be). We've already had the conversation about Gallo, I don't think we need to cover why I don't think hes a great trade asset. Clearly the star of the trade would be Chandler, and I think he would be a good fit as a SF to slide right in for Denver but his production is higher in the D'Antoni system than it would be in Denver's system and when he gets a new contract this offseason he won't be much of a bargain. In last year's FA market (with his production this year) he would demand a contract no smaller than Salmons (and probably higher) which was something like 5yr/40 mil but I would imagine Chandlers contract will be closer to 5 years 60 million (or whatever the equivalent would be after the new CBA).Favors>>>Chandler (as a prospect)Harris>>FieldsMorrow<Galloplus there are the two 1st rounders (likely they will both be lottery picks) and dumping all the contracts (Billups and hopefully Harrington)I don't see how there is even a case to make for the NY deal.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
At least the Laker fans are quiet this year...
Kiddnets
Footballguy
- the only way Melo goes to NYK is if he plays the Lebron card and demands it.
Shtaym Syek
Footballguy
How is this playing the "Lebron (sic) card"?- the only way Melo goes to NYK is if he plays the Lebron card and demands it.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Bill Simmons article on how the Clippers would be the best fit for Melo.
Aminu, Kaman, Expiring contracts and TWolves 2012 unprotected pick for Melo and Harrington.
Davis
Gordon
Melo
Griffin
Jordan
Far better starting 5 than the Knicks or Nets.
Aminu, Kaman, Expiring contracts and TWolves 2012 unprotected pick for Melo and Harrington.
Davis
Gordon
Melo
Griffin
Jordan
Far better starting 5 than the Knicks or Nets.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Didnt Cleveland get a throwaway draft pick for a sign and trade after James said he was leaving or was that Bosh?How is this playing the "Lebron (sic) card"?- the only way Melo goes to NYK is if he plays the Lebron card and demands it.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I enjoyed the first half of the article,, but laughed my way through the second half. Of course the Clips would do that, but that's a terrible deal for the Nuggets and there will never be another big time player to ever play for Sterling. The stories about Donald Sterling have assured that he will never keep a good player (Gordon and Griffin will be gone as soon as they can get out) and no top FAs will ever even consider them.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I know everyone likes to slag off Kobe here, and that's a shame because he's one of the best to ever lace them up, as he reminded us last night. I'm not a fan of his "persona" or some of his off court escapades, but on the court he is one of the top 10 best of all time. It'd be nice if people could just appreciate him for that when he plays, because I don't think he'll be around much longer. I know I'll miss watching him after he's done.
LeBron keeps putting out the unsavory vibe. It's really weird to see what was a likable public persona go off the tracks so quickly. The worst of it is he seems much more angry when he plays than he used to. He used to play with the kind of joy that Magic Johnson did, I don't see much of that this year, which is a shame and I hope temporary. He's still the best player in the league though.
I'm always astounded by how much lift Monta gets on his Js. At one point last night Gasol was running out at him on a 3. Gasol's pretty smart so he didn't give a full leap, just the "excuse me" shot bothering hop, but even so it was funny seeing Ellis be eye to eye with him at the peak of his shot (which he drilled). Very entertaining 4th quarter last night between the Lakers and Warriors. The Warriors should be a fun team to watch given all the offensive talent they have, but I guess they just don't bring it every night.
LeBron keeps putting out the unsavory vibe. It's really weird to see what was a likable public persona go off the tracks so quickly. The worst of it is he seems much more angry when he plays than he used to. He used to play with the kind of joy that Magic Johnson did, I don't see much of that this year, which is a shame and I hope temporary. He's still the best player in the league though.
I'm always astounded by how much lift Monta gets on his Js. At one point last night Gasol was running out at him on a 3. Gasol's pretty smart so he didn't give a full leap, just the "excuse me" shot bothering hop, but even so it was funny seeing Ellis be eye to eye with him at the peak of his shot (which he drilled). Very entertaining 4th quarter last night between the Lakers and Warriors. The Warriors should be a fun team to watch given all the offensive talent they have, but I guess they just don't bring it every night.
the moops
Footballguy
I will miss watching him too. He is an incredible basketball player. Just not top 10 though.
(he is pretty damn close though).I think there's a pretty strong likelihood that the 2012 Twolves pick could net a better player than has been discussed in either of the NY or NJ deals. It is more speculative, however, and the Nugs would have to wait a long time to see any return, which the fan base might not put up with.
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