*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (6 Viewers)

[Cliff Clavin]

If they were starting from scratch I'd say a 50/50 split is fair, then build the other concessions around it. But that's not the background for this negotiation. The players have conceded on the luxury tax being more oppressive, shorter contracts, lower mid level exception and 5% off the amount of revenue they were getting from the last deal. That's quite a bit to give back, so I'm thinking the owners should take the 52% now and hammer them for the remaining 2% in the next deal.

Regardless, I hope Arenas and Reshard Lewis aren't heavily in debt, because they're not going to see dime one of their remaining contracts. It'll be an interesting free agent market when all the amnesty cuts are through.

No way this happens. They'll still have to pay them, it just wont count against the luxury tax.

Those contracts are expiring as we speak. If there is no season this year, a guy like Billups isn't going to see a dime of the $14.2M he is owed.

 

[culdeus]

a thing that invariably appreciates at a ridiculous pace--

How true is that for small market teams like Sacremento among others?

Is it not? I've always just assumed it was true of all professional sports teams.

For example, your "small market" team, the Sacramento Kings, have almost doubled in value since they were purchased by the Maloofs in 1998. That's a decent ROI, no? And it's an ego buy to boot. It's fun, it gets you into parties with celebrities, comes with great seats, gets you laid constantly, doubles in value every decade or so, and offers you a decent return on your investment, and I'm supposed to feel bad because it doesn't also guarantee you more annual revenue than annual expenditures?

old simmons article on sacto This was what i was remembering. I can see this CBA basically needing to go down in the owners direction such that the smaller teams can just afford to stay afloat in soft periods. I mean even teams in big markets like Houston and Atlanta have had trouble filling arenas at times over the past 10 years.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Unless you think the owners should receive everything they want the players have been more then fair.

The side that negotiates better should receive everything they want.

Don't know how you can be on ownership side at this point. Players have made huge concessions. Doubt AEG gets 50% of the take when the Rolling Stones sellout Staples.

Its pretty tough to be on anyone's side in this.

I would actually be curious to see where the regulars in this thread fall at this stage. I'm about 95% on the player's side, simply because I resent the owners' suggestion that ownership of a basketball team-- a thing that invariably appreciates at a ridiculous pace-- should be evaluated as a business instead of an investment that may, on occasion, require expenditures to maintain and improve.The 5% is because the NBA players have the best of both worlds - they make money right out of the gate unlike baseball players, they have guaranteed money unlike football players, and they have very little risk of serious bodily harm unlike football players and hockey players.

NBA players do have it good. But also only around 450 spots available. I also don't think it's that useful to compare the NBA to NFL unions. The NFL union is a joke. M. Forte is making 600k this year. A 30-second commercial on Sunday Night Football costs 500k.

Good points.Yeah the NFL deal is criminal. Boggles the mind.

 

[Gr00vus]

If they were starting from scratch I'd say a 50/50 split is fair, then build the other concessions around it. But that's not the background for this negotiation. The players have conceded on the luxury tax being more oppressive, shorter contracts, lower mid level exception and 5% off the amount of revenue they were getting from the last deal. That's quite a bit to give back, so I'm thinking the owners should take the 52% now and hammer them for the remaining 2% in the next deal.

Regardless, I hope Arenas and Reshard Lewis aren't heavily in debt, because they're not going to see dime one of their remaining contracts. It'll be an interesting free agent market when all the amnesty cuts are through.

No way this happens. They'll still have to pay them, it just wont count against the luxury tax.

Those contracts are expiring as we speak. If there is no season this year, a guy like Billups isn't going to see a dime of the $14.2M he is owed.

Well, I did use Arenas and Lewis as examples, and they both have years beyond this one remaining on their deals, so rdog12 is right about them.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

If they were starting from scratch I'd say a 50/50 split is fair, then build the other concessions around it. But that's not the background for this negotiation. The players have conceded on the luxury tax being more oppressive, shorter contracts, lower mid level exception and 5% off the amount of revenue they were getting from the last deal. That's quite a bit to give back, so I'm thinking the owners should take the 52% now and hammer them for the remaining 2% in the next deal.

Regardless, I hope Arenas and Reshard Lewis aren't heavily in debt, because they're not going to see dime one of their remaining contracts. It'll be an interesting free agent market when all the amnesty cuts are through.

No way this happens. They'll still have to pay them, it just wont count against the luxury tax.

Those contracts are expiring as we speak. If there is no season this year, a guy like Billups isn't going to see a dime of the $14.2M he is owed.

So if you have 1 year left on your deal, and this season is cancelled, you are a free agent next season? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Daywalker]

a thing that invariably appreciates at a ridiculous pace--

How true is that for small market teams like Sacremento among others?

Is it not? I've always just assumed it was true of all professional sports teams.

For example, your "small market" team, the Sacramento Kings, have almost doubled in value since they were purchased by the Maloofs in 1998. That's a decent ROI, no? And it's an ego buy to boot. It's fun, it gets you into parties with celebrities, comes with great seats, gets you laid constantly, doubles in value every decade or so, and offers you a decent return on your investment, and I'm supposed to feel bad because it doesn't also guarantee you more annual revenue than annual expenditures?

old simmons article on sacto This was what i was remembering. I can see this CBA basically needing to go down in the owners direction such that the smaller teams can just afford to stay afloat in soft periods. I mean even teams in big markets like Houston and Atlanta have had trouble filling arenas at times over the past 10 years.

Hunters has stipulated to the owners' #'s. The unions' concessions are already more then the owner's stated losses.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

If they were starting from scratch I'd say a 50/50 split is fair, then build the other concessions around it. But that's not the background for this negotiation. The players have conceded on the luxury tax being more oppressive, shorter contracts, lower mid level exception and 5% off the amount of revenue they were getting from the last deal. That's quite a bit to give back, so I'm thinking the owners should take the 52% now and hammer them for the remaining 2% in the next deal.

Regardless, I hope Arenas and Reshard Lewis aren't heavily in debt, because they're not going to see dime one of their remaining contracts. It'll be an interesting free agent market when all the amnesty cuts are through.

No way this happens. They'll still have to pay them, it just wont count against the luxury tax.

Those contracts are expiring as we speak. If there is no season this year, a guy like Billups isn't going to see a dime of the $14.2M he is owed.

Well, I did use Arenas and Lewis as examples, and they both have years beyond this one remaining on their deals, so rdog12 is right about them.

You're right. Thought they were expiring after this year.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

If they were starting from scratch I'd say a 50/50 split is fair, then build the other concessions around it. But that's not the background for this negotiation. The players have conceded on the luxury tax being more oppressive, shorter contracts, lower mid level exception and 5% off the amount of revenue they were getting from the last deal. That's quite a bit to give back, so I'm thinking the owners should take the 52% now and hammer them for the remaining 2% in the next deal.

Regardless, I hope Arenas and Reshard Lewis aren't heavily in debt, because they're not going to see dime one of their remaining contracts. It'll be an interesting free agent market when all the amnesty cuts are through.

No way this happens. They'll still have to pay them, it just wont count against the luxury tax.

Those contracts are expiring as we speak. If there is no season this year, a guy like Billups isn't going to see a dime of the $14.2M he is owed.

So if you have 1 year left on your deal, and this season is cancelled, you are a free agent next season? That doesn't make sense.

Sure it does. The contracts don't say 'You are signed for 3 NBA seasons'. They say 'Contract expires July xx, 2012.'

 

[Daywalker]

I would actually be curious to see where the regulars in this thread fall at this stage. I'm about 95% on the player's side, simply because I resent the owners' suggestion that ownership of a basketball team-- a thing that invariably appreciates at a ridiculous pace-- should be evaluated as a business instead of an investment that may, on occasion, require expenditures to maintain and improve.The 5% is because the NBA players have the best of both worlds - they make money right out of the gate unlike baseball players, they have guaranteed money unlike football players, and they have very little risk of serious bodily harm unlike football players and hockey players.

I'm probably closer to being on the owners side but not by much. I'm sick of seeing the Eddie Curry's, Charlie V's, Alonzo Mourning's, Marbury's, etc. and don't mind the players as a whole getting screwed for it. God would I love non-guaranteed contracts. I know, the owners sign these deals and its all their fault, blah blah blah. The players union was dumb enough to think they had a chance in these negotiations and they are getting what they deserve. They should have fought to the final hour but once there were games about to be cancelled, they should have taken what they could get. They are doing nothing but hurting themselves by being stubborn. Note: I pretty much side with the owners for strikes/lockouts of any sort (except for things like working conditions/safety). If you don't like the offer management is giving, find another job!

For every E. Curry their is a D. Rose making 20% of his market value.Let's also not pretend that these franchises are not luxury/status purchases. The previous owner of the Nets specifically bought then moved the team to Brooklyn in order to secure a multi-billion dollar development deal. Then he sold the team. These guys overpay for these teams then whine when they are not making boatloads of money. Wasn't Philly just sold?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

If they were starting from scratch I'd say a 50/50 split is fair, then build the other concessions around it. But that's not the background for this negotiation. The players have conceded on the luxury tax being more oppressive, shorter contracts, lower mid level exception and 5% off the amount of revenue they were getting from the last deal. That's quite a bit to give back, so I'm thinking the owners should take the 52% now and hammer them for the remaining 2% in the next deal.

Regardless, I hope Arenas and Reshard Lewis aren't heavily in debt, because they're not going to see dime one of their remaining contracts. It'll be an interesting free agent market when all the amnesty cuts are through.

No way this happens. They'll still have to pay them, it just wont count against the luxury tax.

Those contracts are expiring as we speak. If there is no season this year, a guy like Billups isn't going to see a dime of the $14.2M he is owed.

So if you have 1 year left on your deal, and this season is cancelled, you are a free agent next season? That doesn't make sense.

Sure it does. The contracts don't say 'You are signed for 3 NBA seasons'. They say 'Contract expires July xx, 2012.'

Really? There is no accrued NBA season? So if you need X amount of years experience to be an unrestricted free agent, this season counts towards that?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

For every E. Curry their is a D. Rose making 20% of his market value.

Let's also not pretend that these franchises are not luxury/status purchases. The previous owner of the Nets moved the team to Brooklyn in order to secure a multi-billion dollar development deal. Then he sold the team. These guys overpay for these teams then whine when they are not making boatloads of money. Wasn't Philly just sold?

And for every D. Rose there is a five H. Thabeets. Yeah, I read Gladwell's article too.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Really? There is no accrued NBA season? So if you need X amount of years experience to be an unrestricted free agent, this season counts towards that?

Everything I've read/heard says contracts are expiring. I'm not sure how the free agency part works.

 

[Daywalker]

For every E. Curry their is a D. Rose making 20% of his market value.

Let's also not pretend that these franchises are not luxury/status purchases. The previous owner of the Nets moved the team to Brooklyn in order to secure a multi-billion dollar development deal. Then he sold the team. These guys overpay for these teams then whine when they are not making boatloads of money. Wasn't Philly just sold?

And for every D. Rose there is a five H. Thabeets. Yeah, I read Gladwell's article too.

And it made a lot of sense.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

For every E. Curry their is a D. Rose making 20% of his market value.

Let's also not pretend that these franchises are not luxury/status purchases. The previous owner of the Nets moved the team to Brooklyn in order to secure a multi-billion dollar development deal. Then he sold the team. These guys overpay for these teams then whine when they are not making boatloads of money. Wasn't Philly just sold?

And for every D. Rose there is a five H. Thabeets. Yeah, I read Gladwell's article too.

And it made a lot of sense.

That owners have a lot of money and are better at business than the players? Agreed.

 

[Daywalker]

For every E. Curry their is a D. Rose making 20% of his market value.

Let's also not pretend that these franchises are not luxury/status purchases. The previous owner of the Nets moved the team to Brooklyn in order to secure a multi-billion dollar development deal. Then he sold the team. These guys overpay for these teams then whine when they are not making boatloads of money. Wasn't Philly just sold?

And for every D. Rose there is a five H. Thabeets. Yeah, I read Gladwell's article too.

And it made a lot of sense.

That owners have a lot of money and are better at business than the players? Agreed.

Last two labor deals don't look that savvy for owners.

 

[No. 16]

Why players will cave.

Great article by Grantland discussing the current state of the lockout.

 

[Hedgehog]

Nets fan here - Prokhov is said to be in the hardliner owner group wanting to nuke the season...why? Because he doesnt want to play in NJ and lose a ton of $ this season when his Brooklyn palace opens up fresh in 2012...hope no one listens to him!

I have no horse in this race...if they cant figure out how to close this small gap at this point I have no use for either.....they are also seriously miscalcuating howm much people want NBA...most dont even care until after the Super Bowl except for hardcore fans....March madness starts a few weeks later then baseball gets started....NBA is signing its own death warrant. I remember the days of watching games at midnight before Jordan and cable took it to the next level....if they are not careful it will go back there again. Baseball took a beating after their stoppage and it took years and a steroid HR race to bring it back....NBA may never recover.

More respect for NFL who knew better than to lose games in this economy...Stern's legacy is officially nuked. Hope it was worth it over 2.5% BRI.

 

[Juxtatarot]

I had thought all along that there would be a season. For the first time, I no longer think so.

This should be good news for the NBA fans here since I'm usually wrong about these things.

 

[culdeus]

Why players will cave.

Great article by Grantland discussing the current state of the lockout.

The most interesting thing is comparing how basically 10 players carry the league and it messes up the entire money system for the 20 teams that don't have one of the 10. I've seen that explained in that manner, but not quite to that extent.I do miss the NBA. Tue-Fri sort of suck now.

 

[Short Corner]

Have they projected what the actual D-Day will be? Season has to start by Jan 7 to play 50 games IIRC. That would probably put it around Thanksgiving?

 

[No. 16]

Have they projected what the actual D-Day will be? Season has to start by Jan 7 to play 50 games IIRC. That would probably put it around Thanksgiving?

The last lockout was lasted until Jan. 20th so I don't think there is ever going to be "no-season". There definitely will be a shortened season, but no-season is a lose-lose for most of the owners and the players.

 

[No. 16]

Most Important Week

Another good read on the current situation by a Warrior blogger/lawyer. This one describing the impact of decertification.

 

[thecatch]

Most Important Week

Another good read on the current situation by a Warrior blogger/lawyer. This one describing the impact of decertification.

I don't get why the owners should be concerned about decertification. My understanding is that the NBA players have a far weaker case than the NFL players did, and that didn't exactly work out for the players there. Maybe the NBA players have the ability to choose a better forum (e.g., the 9th Circuit), but if they take this to court and lose, the owners will have more leverage than ever.

 

[Gr00vus]

Most Important Week

Another good read on the current situation by a Warrior blogger/lawyer. This one describing the impact of decertification.

I don't get why the owners should be concerned about decertification. My understanding is that the NBA players have a far weaker case than the NFL players did, and that didn't exactly work out for the players there. Maybe the NBA players have the ability to choose a better forum (e.g., the 9th Circuit), but if they take this to court and lose, the owners will have more leverage than ever.

It means the players can dump Billy Hunter/Derek Fisher and let their agents have at it. If you're an owner, who would you rather deal with?

 

[thecatch]

Most Important Week

Another good read on the current situation by a Warrior blogger/lawyer. This one describing the impact of decertification.

I don't get why the owners should be concerned about decertification. My understanding is that the NBA players have a far weaker case than the NFL players did, and that didn't exactly work out for the players there. Maybe the NBA players have the ability to choose a better forum (e.g., the 9th Circuit), but if they take this to court and lose, the owners will have more leverage than ever.

It means the players can dump Billy Hunter/Derek Fisher and let their agents have at it. If you're an owner, who would you rather deal with?

It all ends up in the same place

 

[Wooderson]

Sorry if it's been mentioned. What was the old contract break down of percentage for players and owners?

 

[JMon348]

TODAY IS THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!

(PleaseComeToAnAgreementYouStubbornPiecesOf)

 

[JMon348]

Sorry if it's been mentioned. What was the old contract break down of percentage for players and owners?

I think it was 57-43, players.

 

[Wooderson]

Sorry if it's been mentioned. What was the old contract break down of percentage for players and owners?

I think it was 57-43, players.

57 players43 ownersDamn they had a nice deal.

 

[TobiasFunke]

If (and I hope it doesn't come to this) the NBA season is canceled, what do people think the players will do? Certainly they have a marketable talent, one that people are willing to pay a lot of money to enjoy. It makes zero sense that they would waste a full year of the very short period of time that they possess that marketable talent. The NBA is not the only stage for them. Would there finally be a serious move to overseas play? Exhibitions? Maybe even a rogue mini-league?

 

[Joe Summer]

Bill Simmons' list of the teams with the hard-line owners that want the season to be canceled:

Charlotte

Milwaukee

Indiana

Minnesota

Portland

Oklahoma City

Memphis

Sacramento

Philadelphia

Atlanta

Utah

Washington

Denver

 

[GroveDiesel]

Kessler is right in the middle of this. Until the players kick him to the curb, just like the NFL players finally did, this thing isn't going anywhere.

Kessler wants to go to court and destroy the owners. Period.

 

[culdeus]

Bill Simmons' list of the teams with the hard-line owners that want the season to be canceled:CharlotteMilwaukeeIndianaMinnesotaPortlandOklahoma CityMemphisSacramentoPhiladelphiaAtlantaUtahWashingtonDenver

So basically just as everyone expected. Small market teams, or teams with no star power. Sometimes both will kill the season. Fun.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Bill Simmons' list of the teams with the hard-line owners that want the season to be canceled:CharlotteMilwaukeeIndianaMinnesotaPortlandOklahoma CityMemphisSacramentoPhiladelphiaAtlantaUtahWashingtonDenver

So basically just as everyone expected. Small market teams, or teams with no star power. Sometimes both will kill the season. Fun.

Seems to me that my team, Washington, is the one that doesn't really fit (fairly large market, privately owned arena, marketable new star), but maybe there's just a more short-sighted version of self-interest at work there. Right now the team has bad deals on the books- including one really had one that comes off the books after 2012-2013- is rebuilding and is competing in a division with teams that have stars in their prime who will soon be past their prime, and would probably get another high draft pick in a stacked draft in 2012 if there was no season. Plus the Capitals are making money hand over fist for Leonsis and friends. There's very little downside and quite a bit of upside to losing the season there as I see it. Wonder if that played into their vote.

 

[Wooderson]

What ever it takes to have a hard salary cap.

IMO every sports should have this.

 

[Daywalker]

Sorry if it's been mentioned. What was the old contract break down of percentage for players and owners?

I think it was 57-43, players.

57 players43 ownersDamn they had a nice deal.

Perhaps. 50/50 is a coup for the owners. Maddening why they can't give some of the other structural concessions to the players at this point.I wonder why it's never mentioned about the rising ad revenue sports garners because it's increasingly becoming the only television we watch live. All we hear about is the owner's uncertainty regarding the economic forecast for the next 10 years but not that sports in general are going to be advertising gold.NBA attendance is fine coming off a great season and tv revenue is going to go through the roof. Poor owners.

 

[Premier]

It is startling how bad of a deal the players are going to be taking.

 

[Joe Summer]

I caught the Wayman Tisdale Story on the NBA Network tonight. It was pretty good. I knew that Tisdale was a bass player but I had no idea that he was so highly respected in the music industry.

One author reflects on meeting Tisdale during the 1984 Olympic tryouts

 

[wazoo11]

NBA players who are playing in china are mad that they can't use twitter.

 

[Bobcat10]

It is startling how bad of a deal the players are going to be taking.

At this point, I hope you're right.

 

[Gr00vus]

Can't see the players voting for the current deal - nor should they from what I've heard of it.

It'll be interesting to see if any cracks show up in the owners' ranks at that point between the guys who'll lose money if there isn't a season vs. the guys who'll lose money if there is a season.

 

[Bogart]

Your Dallas Mavericks - 2011 & 2012 NBA Champions

This season is toast.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Did these guys bother to negotiate before october?

 

[wazoo11]

Did these guys bother to negotiate before october?

No not one bit.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Link

And, with the players threatening the nuclear option of decertification, Stern has sounded the ominous warning to players that this strategy could have drastic consequences to their finances. Stern warned, "If the union is not in existence, then neither are $4 billion worth of guaranteed contracts that are entered into under condition that there's a union."

Stern and the NBA have asked a judge in the Southern District of New York to essentially rule the same. The NBA’s argument is that in the event the players' decertification or disclaimer -- the distinction is technical but the same for purposes of this argument -- is found valid, the collective bargaining relationship between the players and the owners will have ceased. Thus, argues Stern and the league, all player contracts should then also cease, becoming null and void.

This would be pretty awesome if it made every player an FA and a full on draft when the league starts back up.

 

[Gr00vus]

Both teams played hard.

The NBA Players Association has rejected the owners' most recent collective bargaining proposal and will instead seek to disband the union, a move that likely jeopardizes the 2011-12 season.

The union, whose members have been locked out since July 1st, also plans to pursue an antitrust lawsuit against the NBA.

"We're prepared to file this antitrust action against the NBA," union executive director Billy Hunter said Monday, the 137th day of the lockout. "That's the best situation where players can get their due process."

Hunter said players were not prepared to accept NBA commissioner David Stern's ultimatum that it accept the deal or risk lesser offers in the future, saying they thought it was "extremely unfair."

Hunter said the union has negotiated in good faith over two years and feels that they have given enough, while the NBA was "not willing and prepared to negotiate."

"The players feel that they are not prepared to accept any ultimatums," Hunter said.

"Going forward, collective bargaining will not be how this process continues for us," added union president Derek Fisher. "We'll let our legal team really lead the charge."

"We continue to want to get to work, to get back to work, to negotiate, but that process has broken down," Fisher added.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Did these guys bother to negotiate before october?

No not one bit.

I know that they have. Its just both sides are acting as if its all new info.

 

[JMon348]

Disgusting

 

[wazoo11]

David Stern guarantees on SportsCenter that if union files suit, there will be "years of litigation."

Oof.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Link

And, with the players threatening the nuclear option of decertification, Stern has sounded the ominous warning to players that this strategy could have drastic consequences to their finances. Stern warned, "If the union is not in existence, then neither are $4 billion worth of guaranteed contracts that are entered into under condition that there's a union."

Stern and the NBA have asked a judge in the Southern District of New York to essentially rule the same. The NBA’s argument is that in the event the players' decertification or disclaimer -- the distinction is technical but the same for purposes of this argument -- is found valid, the collective bargaining relationship between the players and the owners will have ceased. Thus, argues Stern and the league, all player contracts should then also cease, becoming null and void.

This would be pretty awesome if it made every player an FA and a full on draft when the league starts back up.

And by that I mean in 2014.