*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (4 Viewers)

[Britney Spears]

If Vince Carter is getting consideration for the HOF, there is something wrong.

 

[simmonjm]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

 

[StrikeS2k]

Griffin averaged 21.3 ppg and 12.7 boards per game in 3 games vs. the Spurs this season - both over his season averages. What's going to change now?By the way, Tim Duncan (I assume he's one of the 3 Spurs guys you're assuming are better than Griffin), averaged 12.7 ppg and 9.7 rebounds per game vs. the Clippers - with that scoring average 7 points under his season averages.

Game 1: Tim Duncan 12-20 FG's, 10 Rebounds, +/- +26, 26 points.Blake Griffin 7-17 FG's, 9 Rebounds, +/- -24, 15 points.

 

[Daywalker]

Was looking at stats after trying to wrap my head around Bosh potentially being a HOF'er. Alex English, a HOF'er, did not start an NBA game until his 8th season in the league at age 28.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Alex English, a HOF'er, did not start an NBA game until his 8th season in the league at age 28.

His 6th season.1: 76-772: 77-783: 78-794: 79-805: 80-81He then became a full time starter.And even as such his MinutePerGame were easily starter level (top-80) for the seasons, 3, 4 and 5.This was a player who averaged 26.5 points a game as a 35 year old.

 

[matuski]

Griffin averaged 21.3 ppg and 12.7 boards per game in 3 games vs. the Spurs this season - both over his season averages. What's going to change now?By the way, Tim Duncan (I assume he's one of the 3 Spurs guys you're assuming are better than Griffin), averaged 12.7 ppg and 9.7 rebounds per game vs. the Clippers - with that scoring average 7 points under his season averages.

Game 1: Tim Duncan 12-20 FG's, 10 Rebounds, +/- +26, 26 points.Blake Griffin 7-17 FG's, 9 Rebounds, +/- -24, 15 points.

I like Griffin, but he is completely helpless on offfense if you take away the dunk.I cringed on the broken play where he got the ball at the elbow and everyone just backed away. He still drove in on 3 defenders with a wild shot. If he can develop even an 8-9 foot shot, and a back-to-the-basket move beyond spinning, jumping, and hoping for the best... he would be twice the presence he is now.

 

[Popinski]

Bosh is hall of famer?

Yep. His HOF probability score is .678Nash's is only .576Bosh would be in the HOF if he retired today, from a statistical standpoint.

It's not my formula. But it is extremely accurate historically, at a 98.5% rate.

If he retired today he has zero shot of making the Hall. Zero. I don't care what your nerd formula says.

Actually, it's more like 98.5% chance he makes the Hall if he retires today. But who's counting.

I thought you said his probability score was 67%? Are you high right now?

The score is not a percentage, the goal is to reach .500. Once a player reaches that score they will make the HOF, according to that formula.

The score is actually a probability (and a percentage). The 98.5% figure was the result of measuring accuracy of this method and applies to the entire collection of players at or greater then .500, not to any one individual player.

 

[saintfool]

Game 1: Tim Duncan 12-20 FG's, 10 Rebounds, +/- +26, 26 points.Blake Griffin 7-17 FG's, 9 Rebounds, +/- -24, 15 points.

to be fair, he's playing injured.i liked the aggressiveness - and tendency to overplay - of the clippers last night. they scrambled and swarmed to shooters. the ball movement and timely shooting of the spurs just negated that kind of effort. it's not for lack of effort that the clippers lost last night.

 

[wadegarrett]

If the Heat lose this series, does Pat Riley acknowledge the reality that LeBron can't win this thing with only 2 HOF teammates their prime (Wade and Bosh), and tear this team apart?

Could see them moving (or trying to move) Bosh this off season.

 

[matuski]

to be fair, he's playing injured.

Not disputing this.. but the injury is not what is hampering him on offense.

 

[saintfool]

to be fair, he's playing injured.

Not disputing this.. but the injury is not what is hampering him on offense.

for a player who relies so much on his raw athleticism to overwhelm the opposition, playing injured doesn't affect his game? huh, i did not know that. it certainly kept him off the floor for long stretches of the game.i'm not saying that SA didn't take some things away from him. i felt like it was more that the pressure applied to Paul keep the offense from getting set. they weren't able to get their P & R, which is a bread and butter set against the Spurs, if nothing else. regardless, griffin probably would have had some issues with that if his knee was really bothering him still.

 

[matuski]

to be fair, he's playing injured.

Not disputing this.. but the injury is not what is hampering him on offense.

for a player who relies so much on his raw athleticism to overwhelm the opposition, playing injured doesn't affect his game? huh, i did not know that. it certainly kept him off the floor for long stretches of the game.i'm not saying that SA didn't take some things away from him. i felt like it was more that the pressure applied to Paul keep the offense from getting set. they weren't able to get their P & R, which is a bread and butter set against the Spurs, if nothing else. regardless, griffin probably would have had some issues with that if his knee was really bothering him still.

You say "relies on athleticism", I say he has no offensive skills beyond dunking.He has always struggled in half court offense (hello playoffs) because he has nothing beyond the lob or dunk. This has absolutely zero to do with his knee (which looked fine as he grabbed the lob two feet above the rim).

eta - i think ive posted this like 6 times in this thread, im not sure why people keep coming to his defense on this, it isn't really a debatable deal... he cant shoot and has no actual post game, simple as that. I love the guy but he has work to do on offense.

 

[saintfool]

You say "relies on athleticism", I say he has no offensive skills beyond dunking.

He has always struggled in half court offense (hello playoffs) because he has nothing beyond the lob or dunk. This has absolutely zero to do with his knee (which looked fine as he grabbed the lob two feet above the rim).

eta - i think ive posted this like 6 times in this thread, im not sure why people keep coming to his defense on this, it isn't really a debatable deal... he cant shoot and has no actual post game, simple as that. I love the guy but he has work to do on offense.

there aren't many 2nd year players in the NBA with a polished post moves these days. to this point in his career, he's been able to overpower defenders and score. it's been pretty effective too. playing with a bum knee would be just as much a problem for him with an array of moves just as it limits him now. i'm a SA loyalist for 20+ years. i'll take wins from an 80% griffin just as gladly as i would with him 100%.

 

[Short Corner]

to be fair, he's playing injured.

Not disputing this.. but the injury is not what is hampering him on offense.

for a player who relies so much on his raw athleticism to overwhelm the opposition, playing injured doesn't affect his game? huh, i did not know that. it certainly kept him off the floor for long stretches of the game.i'm not saying that SA didn't take some things away from him. i felt like it was more that the pressure applied to Paul keep the offense from getting set. they weren't able to get their P & R, which is a bread and butter set against the Spurs, if nothing else. regardless, griffin probably would have had some issues with that if his knee was really bothering him still.

You say "relies on athleticism", I say he has no offensive skills beyond dunking.He has always struggled in half court offense (hello playoffs) because he has nothing beyond the lob or dunk. This has absolutely zero to do with his knee (which looked fine as he grabbed the lob two feet above the rim).

eta - i think ive posted this like 6 times in this thread, im not sure why people keep coming to his defense on this, it isn't really a debatable deal... he cant shoot and has no actual post game, simple as that. I love the guy but he has work to do on offense.

As fundamentally flawed he is on the offensive end, it is the stronger phase of his game. They really should have tried to package him an Jordan for Howard while his value was high.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

If Vince Carter is getting consideration for the HOF, there is something wrong.

It isn't the hall of pretty dunks. Bosh getting in would be awful.

 

[TobiasFunke]

If Vince Carter is getting consideration for the HOF, there is something wrong.

It isn't the hall of pretty dunks. Bosh getting in would be awful.

Not that I disagree, but it's always worth nothing that it's not the NBA Hall of Fame, it's the basketball Hall of Fame. Not that Carter should get in anyway- I really don't care too much about Hall of Fame debates one way or another- but he went to two Final Fours and won a pile of conference titles and conference/national accolades. Also, both guys won gold medals. Carter might have been the best player on the 2000 team.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

If Vince Carter is getting consideration for the HOF, there is something wrong.

It isn't the hall of pretty dunks. Bosh getting in would be awful.

Not that I disagree, but it's always worth nothing that it's not the NBA Hall of Fame, it's the basketball Hall of Fame. Not that Carter should get in anyway- I really don't care too much about Hall of Fame debates one way or another- but he went to two Final Fours and won a pile of conference titles and conference/national accolades. Also, both guys won gold medals. Carter might have been the best player on the 2000 team.

A lot of UNC/Duke guys win what Carter won. With the one and done stuff now (or the years when players came straight from HS), I don't think those accolades carry as much weight as previously. I also don't put a lot of stock on the Olympic golds for the US with how stacked those teams are. Same way I look at the Canadian Men's hockey team. They are expected to win gold, anything else is failure.

 

[TobiasFunke]

If Vince Carter is getting consideration for the HOF, there is something wrong.

It isn't the hall of pretty dunks. Bosh getting in would be awful.

Not that I disagree, but it's always worth nothing that it's not the NBA Hall of Fame, it's the basketball Hall of Fame. Not that Carter should get in anyway- I really don't care too much about Hall of Fame debates one way or another- but he went to two Final Fours and won a pile of conference titles and conference/national accolades. Also, both guys won gold medals. Carter might have been the best player on the 2000 team.

A lot of UNC/Duke guys win what Carter won. With the one and done stuff now (or the years when players came straight from HS), I don't think those accolades carry as much weight as previously. I also don't put a lot of stock on the Olympic golds for the US with how stacked those teams are. Same way I look at the Canadian Men's hockey team. They are expected to win gold, anything else is failure.

The 2000 team wasn't really all that stacked. No Shaq, no Duncan, no Malone, no Iverson, etc. I'm not sure I understand your argument about the college thing. Basketball success is basketball success. When the time comes, Manu Ginobli is gonna get credit for his Euroleague accomplishments without too much consideration of the quality of play during their time.Again I don't know that it really matters with Carter, just saying that his NBA career isn't the only consideration, same is true for everyone in fact. When the time comes for Melo, his amazing run with Syracuse in 2003 will definitely help his cause.

 

[saintfool]

As fundamentally flawed he is on the offensive end, it is the stronger phase of his game. They really should have tried to package him an Jordan for Howard while his value was high.

certainly howard's defensive and rebounding abilities would be an asset. his offensive game, however, is just as limited as griffin's.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Wow. LeBron doesn't even LOOK for his own shot.Is anyone surprised?

No, because this is who he is. Being the best player in the world does not mean you are gonna be the best at everything. LBJ is not the best closer; not even close. But that doesn't mean he can't still be the best player. He has had his moments closing games (most famously, the playoff games against Detroit and Orlando), but by and large is not a "closer" (whatever that means). The sooner people like you realize that James is not the assassin at the end of games that you all want him to be, the sooner you'll stop expecting him to magically change into one.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

If Vince Carter is getting consideration for the HOF, there is something wrong.

It isn't the hall of pretty dunks. Bosh getting in would be awful.

Not that I disagree, but it's always worth nothing that it's not the NBA Hall of Fame, it's the basketball Hall of Fame. Not that Carter should get in anyway- I really don't care too much about Hall of Fame debates one way or another- but he went to two Final Fours and won a pile of conference titles and conference/national accolades. Also, both guys won gold medals. Carter might have been the best player on the 2000 team.

A lot of UNC/Duke guys win what Carter won. With the one and done stuff now (or the years when players came straight from HS), I don't think those accolades carry as much weight as previously. I also don't put a lot of stock on the Olympic golds for the US with how stacked those teams are. Same way I look at the Canadian Men's hockey team. They are expected to win gold, anything else is failure.

The 2000 team wasn't really all that stacked. No Shaq, no Duncan, no Malone, no Iverson, etc. I'm not sure I understand your argument about the college thing. Basketball success is basketball success. When the time comes, Manu Ginobli is gonna get credit for his Euroleague accomplishments without too much consideration of the quality of play during their time.Again I don't know that it really matters with Carter, just saying that his NBA career isn't the only consideration, same is true for everyone in fact. When the time comes for Melo, his amazing run with Syracuse in 2003 will definitely help his cause.

It wasn't as stacked as some of the teams, but they only had one competitive game IIRC. RE: College. The level of play isn't as high as when the best guys were sticking around for 4 years.

 

[sports_fan]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

I like Wade but that was ####ed up.

 

[Short Corner]

As fundamentally flawed he is on the offensive end, it is the stronger phase of his game. They really should have tried to package him an Jordan for Howard while his value was high.

certainly howard's defensive and rebounding abilities would be an asset. his offensive game, however, is just as limited as griffin's.

I'll take Howard's offensive package over Blake's any day. Howard is a more efficient scorer and that gap would be wider than it is now if you paired him with CP and put Blake on NO.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

I like Wade but that was ####ed up.

Yeah, I'm surprised this didn't draw an ejection at the very least. You can't just tackle people like that running full speed.

 

[Gr00vus]

Game 1: Tim Duncan 12-20 FG's, 10 Rebounds, +/- +26, 26 points.Blake Griffin 7-17 FG's, 9 Rebounds, +/- -24, 15 points.

to be fair, he's playing injured.i liked the aggressiveness - and tendency to overplay - of the clippers last night. they scrambled and swarmed to shooters. the ball movement and timely shooting of the spurs just negated that kind of effort. it's not for lack of effort that the clippers lost last night.

I don't know what point StrikeS2K is trying to make there - the guy put up 15/9 on a bum knee? O.k.I'm not surprised by anything that went on last night in that game. The Clippers just off a brutal 7 game series, their two best players banged up, they pretty much ran out of gas in the second half. Like I said to start, if Griffin and Paul were 100% I'd expect a close series. They're not, so it's a moot point. I still think they can take 2 games. They were getting in the lane and finding open shots for much of the first half. I expect game 2 to be much closer.

 

[bosoxs45]

Dwyane Wade's hard foul

 

[DrJ]

Even assuming Bosh is a HOF'er, which is stupid, it's worth noting that he won't be on the court this series. That kind of takes the wind out of the can't win with 2 HOF'ers argument either way.

 

[DrJ]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

I like Wade but that was ####ed up.

Unless you're a Laker, and then idiot Laker fans will defend the move.

 

[Short Corner]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

I like Wade but that was ####ed up.

Wade was clearly provoked here.

 

[saintfool]

As fundamentally flawed he is on the offensive end, it is the stronger phase of his game. They really should have tried to package him an Jordan for Howard while his value was high.

certainly howard's defensive and rebounding abilities would be an asset. his offensive game, however, is just as limited as griffin's.

I'll take Howard's offensive package over Blake's any day. Howard is a more efficient scorer and that gap would be wider than it is now if you paired him with CP and put Blake on NO.

i'm not so sure of that. there is a difference but it's not a huge gulf.

 

[DrJ]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

I like Wade but that was ####ed up.

Plus, it looks to me like Collison runs into Wade's path. You can't expect a guy with the momentum Wade had to just stop on a dime or anything. That's playoff basketball and stuff.

 

[saintfool]

I don't know what point StrikeS2K is trying to make there - the guy put up 15/9 on a bum knee? O.k.I'm not surprised by anything that went on last night in that game. The Clippers just off a brutal 7 game series, their two best players banged up, they pretty much ran out of gas in the second half. Like I said to start, if Griffin and Paul were 100% I'd expect a close series. They're not, so it's a moot point. I still think they can take 2 games. They were getting in the lane and finding open shots for much of the first half. I expect game 2 to be much closer.

i like the fact that they hung around late in the game. they kept at it despite a huge lead by the spurs in the 2nd half. they kept at it. if this is the trademark of a VND team then it's great for both teams.

 

[drpill]

Spurs Clippers behind the scenes

 

[bosoxs45]

Wade should be suspended for at least two games.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

I like Wade but that was ####ed up.

So you're just making stuff up these days? Laker fans haven't defended Bynum's fouls or Artest's elbow. Every single Laker fan on this board agreed with the ejections and subsequent suspensions.I think you need to take a few days off. In the past you've often been wrong, but at least you brought something to the table. Now you're just a blathering waste of bandwidth.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Spurs Clippers behind the scenes

Good point made in the caption below about how Doc Rivers used to get mocked until he got his title, now he's "one of the best coaches in basketball".

 

[Gr00vus]

I don't know what point StrikeS2K is trying to make there - the guy put up 15/9 on a bum knee? O.k.I'm not surprised by anything that went on last night in that game. The Clippers just off a brutal 7 game series, their two best players banged up, they pretty much ran out of gas in the second half. Like I said to start, if Griffin and Paul were 100% I'd expect a close series. They're not, so it's a moot point. I still think they can take 2 games. They were getting in the lane and finding open shots for much of the first half. I expect game 2 to be much closer.

i like the fact that they hung around late in the game. they kept at it despite a huge lead by the spurs in the 2nd half. they kept at it. if this is the trademark of a VND team then it's great for both teams.

They did the same in the Memphis series. There's no quit in these guys no matter how far they get down. It's just a shame they couldn't be closer to 100% healthy or this would have been another epic series.On the flip side, the execution the Spurs have maintained all year is the best I can remember in a very long time, probably since the '04 Pistons or when Malone/Stockton were in their heyday. The year Parker is having is amazing, and I'm in the minority that don't think it was a travesty that he got a token 1st place MVP vote.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Wade should be suspended for at least two games.

The only way Wade or Lebron would get suspended in the playoffs, is if they pulled out a gun and literally shot an opponent to death. They'd get 2 games for that. If you think the league would submarine Miami's chances with Bosh already out, you're nuts. There's a zero percent chance Stern would allow something like that.

 

[drpill]

Spurs Clippers behind the scenes

Good point made in the caption below about how Doc Rivers used to get mocked until he got his title, now he's "one of the best coaches in basketball".

Agreed. I don't think VDN is a bad coach, but in the first game it was clear Pop and the Spurs were playing on a different level mentally. The adjustments the Clippers make over the next couple games will be a good measure of Del Negro's coaching chops.

 

[DrJ]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

I like Wade but that was ####ed up.

No, making stuff up is your deal. And not understanding simple mathematics, like probability.

 

[Short Corner]

As fundamentally flawed he is on the offensive end, it is the stronger phase of his game. They really should have tried to package him an Jordan for Howard while his value was high.

certainly howard's defensive and rebounding abilities would be an asset. his offensive game, however, is just as limited as griffin's.

I'll take Howard's offensive package over Blake's any day. Howard is a more efficient scorer and that gap would be wider than it is now if you paired him with CP and put Blake on NO.

i'm not so sure of that. there is a difference but it's not a huge gulf.

The gulf widens when you consider that Griffen gets close to two more assisted buckets/game than Howard. Conversely, DH's presence in the post actually creates open looks for his teammates (see Ryan Andersen.)

 

[saintfool]

The gulf widens when you consider that Griffen gets close to two more assisted buckets/game than Howard. Conversely, DH's presence in the post actually creates open looks for his teammates (see Ryan Andersen.)

you want to get into a discussion of the systems of two teams now? it's an unnecessary distraction, imo.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

NBA will look pretty terrible if they don't suspend Wade. The foul was virtually identical to Smith on Griffin which resulted in two games.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

NBA will look pretty terrible if they don't suspend Wade. The foul was virtually identical to Smith on Griffin which resulted in two games.

Not gonna happen.

I agree.

 

[Gr00vus]

I think this Heat team w/o Bosh is worse than the last couple of Cleveland teams LeBron got to the playoffs.

 

[Gr00vus]

Most playoff triple doubles, all time.

Magic Johnson

 

[Short Corner]

The gulf widens when you consider that Griffen gets close to two more assisted buckets/game than Howard. Conversely, DH's presence in the post actually creates open looks for his teammates (see Ryan Andersen.)

you want to get into a discussion of the systems of two teams now? it's an unnecessary distraction, imo.

Stick to checkers son. Let the men play chess.

 

[saintfool]

The gulf widens when you consider that Griffen gets close to two more assisted buckets/game than Howard. Conversely, DH's presence in the post actually creates open looks for his teammates (see Ryan Andersen.)

you want to get into a discussion of the systems of two teams now? it's an unnecessary distraction, imo.

Stick to checkers son. Let the men play chess.

pretty stinky bait there, chief.

 

[simmonjm]

NBA will look pretty terrible if they don't suspend Wade. The foul was virtually identical to Smith on Griffin which resulted in two games.

 

[Popinski]

Gotta love the NBA double standard Wade blatantly pushes Collison in the back right before a layup knocking him down mad because he didnt get a call on the other end and ends up with flagarant 1 foul. If it was WP or Ebanks or any other bench player automatic ejection and potential suspension i.e. Jason Smith foul on Blake Griffin in regular season

I like Wade but that was ####ed up.

Both Collison and Wade expected Granger to take it to the basket, Wade was going full speed to try for the block, and Collison knew that and tried to cut him off. No way that is a suspension. Nor is it the same as Jason Smith on Griffin.