Short Corner
Footballguy
I guess we know how she got the job.
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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff Clavin
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saintfool
Dead sexy
Yeah, I don't see it as a choke job either. While the Spurs got hot at the right time and grabbed the #1, OKC has been in contention throughout the season. I also think the Spurs have been playing well enough to win these games (turnovers notwithstanding). The exception is that game 3 beatdown, of course. They're playing good team ball but the SA big 3 isn't as automatic or explosive as the OKC big 3. I'm not convinced that SA is out yet but they have a pretty slim margin of error here.
matuski
Footballguy
The role players that made this claim possible have suddenly shrunk from the challenge (Hi Danny Green).If they decide to step up again the spurs can still win this. As is, the Thunder 3 clearly trump the Spurs 3.
drpill
Footballguy
The choke comment was made in the heat of the moment, during the first half of last night's game when the Spurs were playing like a bunch of scared little kids on their own homecourt in the most important game of their season. I don't want to take any credit away from OKC, they are playing amazing basketball right now and beating the Spurs at their own game. The Spurs are losing because they ran into a better team, plain and simple.
I guess the traditional definition of a choke is not beating a team you're supposed to beat, which is not really what's happening here. But then what's the term for realizing you're facing a superior opponent and tucking your genitals between your legs and collectively forgetting how to play the kind of basketball that made you contenders in the first place? Manu Ginobili's will to win is really the only reason last night's game was close. As a team, the Spurs had no business being in the same building as the Thunder last night. Popovich panicked early and so did almost every player on the roster. I appreciate you can't win every game or every series but it hurts to see the Spurs let themselves get punked like this.
I guess the traditional definition of a choke is not beating a team you're supposed to beat, which is not really what's happening here. But then what's the term for realizing you're facing a superior opponent and tucking your genitals between your legs and collectively forgetting how to play the kind of basketball that made you contenders in the first place? Manu Ginobili's will to win is really the only reason last night's game was close. As a team, the Spurs had no business being in the same building as the Thunder last night. Popovich panicked early and so did almost every player on the roster. I appreciate you can't win every game or every series but it hurts to see the Spurs let themselves get punked like this.
saintfool
Dead sexy
I didn't think the Spurs looked scared last night. Instead I think they are simply confused. They just don't know what's wrong or how what they need to do to beat them. The early foul trouble put Duncan on the bench and the rotations were off as a result. Obviously Pop was desperate for any combination of players that worked. I didn't like that Timmy or Manu looked to the refs time and again because you have to play through it. If the story of the series is that OKC simply played harder then that's sorry. I can take shots not going down or being outclassed on talent but not on effort or wanting it more. Manu and Jax are two of the fiercest competitors in the league and they played well last night as a result of it. Timmy was a bit player last night despite good numbers on paper. They just need to cut down on the turnovers because a lot of those translate into easy baskets for OKC on the other end. For me, the Spurs in that Phoenix series two years ago were punked. Seeing a crummy Phoenix team play with no fear was profoundly disappointing.
timschochet
Footballguy
How great is Kevin Durant? Is he a better player than LeBron? Who would you want more?
Dought Man
Footballguy
Durant is already much better than Lebron. In 4 years when we look back and Durant has 3 titles... it will seem funny that we ever compared them.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Durant is amazing, he is going to win titles, it's only a matter of when. He is a great team player and he is even able to put up with Westbrook who many behind the curtains said was getting on Durant's nerves but he would never publicly say there was a problem. I admire Durant, he also is a very nice human being who doesn't get caught up in the punk aspect of BBall. He is someone you want your kids to be like, he is a role model and seems to embrace it. I like him a lot and should the Heat be lucky enough to face off with OKC, it would be satisfying to watch him win a title even at the expense of the Heat. I respect him that much, just an amazing player.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
No, he is not better than LeBron. His teammates are far superior to anything LeBron has played with but that is about it.LeBron is better in virtually every single category.
culdeus
Footballguy
Oh come on. Far?
saintfool
Dead sexy
LBJ is a *much* better defender most notably.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Yes, far.If you replaced Durant with James there would be no need to bother playing the games. Just give them the trophy right now.
hxperson
Footballguy
He probably a better scorer, but defensively and as a facilitator I think he still is significantly behind Lebron.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Yes. Safe to say that Miami is better than anything Cle had. After Wade and Bosh, it is nothing but washed up vets or scrubs. Westbrook & Harden = Wade & Bosh
Ibaka & Perkins are light years better than Anthony & Haslem. Hell, Collison would be the best big on Miami after Bosh.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Scoring is pretty darn even. Just looking at the last two season, LeBron has a higher eFG% and a higher TS%. Everyone thinks Durant is a great 3pt shooter, but LeBron is barely behind him. .387 for Durant and .362 for LeBron this year (.350 vs .330 last year).
Abraham
Footballguy
I agree that lebron is the better player. But it's worth noting they they play significantly different roles on their teams. James is a creator and defender and floor captain. Durant was put on the planet to score points. Durant on the heat would make it a worse team. But im not sure James on the thunder makes okc a better team since he and westbrook would both need the ball to be effective. both guys are on teams well suited for their talents.
Durant is what I thought Carmelo was going to be.
Durant is what I thought Carmelo was going to be.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
How would OKC not be better by adding an equally efficient scorer and rebounder and a superior passer and defender? That doesn't make much sense.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
conference finals loss to an opponent with 3 of the nbas top 30 players is considered Duncan biggest choke job ever?
this okc team has been fabulously put together. if they somehow found a way to keep during/westy/harden/ibaka together (prob somehow rid of perk), wouldnt shock me if they won at least a handful of rings.
this okc team has been fabulously put together. if they somehow found a way to keep during/westy/harden/ibaka together (prob somehow rid of perk), wouldnt shock me if they won at least a handful of rings.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
yeah, overweight, finger pointing cancer he is not.
hxperson
Footballguy
I feel they are close enough that I wouldn't argue too hard either way. But if I needed points, and didn't have the option to pass, I'd choose Durant. IMO their handles are pretty even, and Durant's length and more consistent mid-range and beyond game more than make up for what he lacks in strength, athleticism, and body control vs. Lebron.Scoring is pretty darn even. Just looking at the last two season, LeBron has a higher eFG% and a higher TS%. Everyone thinks Durant is a great 3pt shooter, but LeBron is barely behind him. .387 for Durant and .362 for LeBron this year (.350 vs .330 last year).
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Completely agree. Both great scorers who go about it in different ways.I feel they are close enough that I wouldn't argue too hard either way. But if I needed points, and didn't have the option to pass, I'd choose Durant. IMO their handles are pretty even, and Durant's length and more consistent mid-range and beyond game more than make up for what he lacks in strength, athleticism, and body control vs. Lebron.Scoring is pretty darn even. Just looking at the last two season, LeBron has a higher eFG% and a higher TS%. Everyone thinks Durant is a great 3pt shooter, but LeBron is barely behind him. .387 for Durant and .362 for LeBron this year (.350 vs .330 last year).
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Never attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity/ineptitude. The Clippers are a vanity plate to Sterling, nothing more, and he treats them as such. If ever an owner should have been run from the league for gross incompetence it's Sterling.'Ferris Bueller Fan said:
Gr00vus
Footballguy
The Spurs didn't get enough from their cast of 3 point shooters last night. If they can't make OKC pay for clogging the lane on Parker it's going to be hard for them to win the series (I still think they can). Ginobli and Jackson were 8-16 from three, the rest of the squad 1-8, for a 37.5% rate. They get a couple more 3's to go in the course of the game, the result could have gone either way.'Ferris Bueller Fan said:
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Also, props to Brooks for making a nice adjustment, basically only running 1 big at a time for long stretches. It's really helped them out on the defensive end and made the Spurs work a bit harder on D too. I still think he's giving Fisher too many minutes, but you can't argue with success I suppose.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Not from me.
timschochet
Footballguy
This is anecdotal, but I know a guy who used to be Sterling's gopher. He did all kinds of work for Sterling while learning about the real estate business (Donald Sterling is one of the biggest apartment building owners in West Hollywood and Los Angeles.) This guy told me Sterling would brag about the Clippers, how much money he was making by clinging to Jerry Buss's coattails, how Sterling really didn't give a crap about basketball, but that he would never sell the team because of the prestige factor.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Regardless, the same logic applies. Paper rosters don't automatically equal championships - there are far too many moving parts and dynamics.I think it speaks volumes that we're almost finished with 2 years of LeBron in Miami and we're already starting to hear the "If only LeBron had more talent around him" excuses. That theme was supposed to be over when the SuperFriends came together.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I understand that you're just looking for another reason to trash LeBron, but I think your premise is wrong. Less than half of ESPN experts picked the Heat to win the title post "Decision," so nobody was just handing them the title. Everyone seemed to understand that there were huge question marks as to whether they could fill out a competent roster with three max deals, whether the stars' games would mesh well, and whether they could stay healthy (imperative with so little depth). Other than the injury question to some extent, none of those questions would exist if LeBron switched places with Durant. We already know how OKC works, and LeBron would have no problem being a more well-rounded version of Durant on offense and a much better 3 on defense.
I agree that you don't win titles on paper so I wouldn't make a blanket statement about LeBron + Westbrook + Harden equaling an automatic championship or something, but that's a different thing.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
0 ESPN experts picked Dallas to win. That an appreciable number (12 of 25) of them chose the Heat to win actually speaks more to TGunz's point (which I agree with) than yours.
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
12 of 25 = "handing them the title"? What about the 12 that picked the Lakers- did those people think the NBA was gonna hand out two championships that year?It's a hypothetical, so of course there's no conclusive right answer. But the idea that I can't make an educated guess about what would happen with LeBron on the OKC roster just because the Heat only made it to Game 6 of the Finals last year and are at 2-2 in the Eastern Conference Finals without Bosh this year doesn't really make sense to me. OKC would clearly be a better "supporting cast" for LeBron IMO.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I mostly agree with you on that, though I wonder about how the LeBron/Westbrook dynamic would work out. TGunz's point is that the "but LeBron hasn't had any talent around him" excuse for no championships no longer applies.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Sure, assuming Bosh is healthy as of tonight. But that wasn't really responsive to what I was posting about, so I ignored it. If Bosh isn't healthy, the Heat have huge problems. Would anyone have picked them to win the title if Bosh had torn his ACL in February? I kind of think no- hard to win a title without a single above-average 4 or 5 on your roster. Even Jordan and Pippen had Ho Grant and Rodman grabbing rebounds and mixing it up in the paint, and LeBron and Wade are no Jordan and Pippen.
saintfool
Dead sexy
to be fair, there was no reason to take ibaka off the floor in game 4. he was having the game of his life that night. last night, ibaka had those two fouls less than a minute into the game. perk and collison were able to pick up the slack.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
A lot of people thought they couldn't get by the Bulls even with a healthy Bosh.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I agree here too. Losing Bosh changes everything. I figure it makes them 50/50 with the Celtics and if they make it to the finals without him I would not expect them to win if he can't play.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Seems to go with the fact they are now down 3-2 and facing elimination.'culdeus said:
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
Durant is a great player (heat fan here) but one of the things I saw in Game 1 and 2 of the spurs series is every time they doubled durant he had a hard time passing the ball. James does not have this problem. The casual fan will look at them as being the same but the truth is that LBJ plays better D and passes better. The only thing that durant has over james is that his arms are so long that you need a 6'11 guy to keep him from getting the shot off, and that shot tends to go in...
Losing to the Celtics would be troublesome. This heat teams sometimes plays with a nonchalance that irks me. It is almost like a team full of Shaqs who feel they can "turn it on" when they have to. Sure, they are talented enough to do that (and did in games 3 and 4), but they seem to either a) Get out to a big lead and then relax allowing teams back in, or 2) Get down by 10+ and then turn it on to get back in it.
I'd love to see a 48 minute wall to wall effort game from these guys (something OKC has done these past 3 games)
Losing to the Celtics would be troublesome. This heat teams sometimes plays with a nonchalance that irks me. It is almost like a team full of Shaqs who feel they can "turn it on" when they have to. Sure, they are talented enough to do that (and did in games 3 and 4), but they seem to either a) Get out to a big lead and then relax allowing teams back in, or 2) Get down by 10+ and then turn it on to get back in it.
I'd love to see a 48 minute wall to wall effort game from these guys (something OKC has done these past 3 games)
Dought Man
Footballguy
Same here. How the hell do these guys come out and just walk up and down the court for the first 6 minutes of every game? They are not a very good halfcourt offense. I don't understand why Lebron doesn't push the tempo more often.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Durant doesn't see many doubles because he is more of a catch'n'shoot guy than he is a creator off the dribble (like LeBron). The majority of the time he gets the ball the shot is up before the double gets to him. Since 07, between 32-37% of LeBron's baskets were assisted. For Durant since 08; 48-62%.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Actually most of the season they tend to jump put to big leads. Now in the playoffs facing better teams night in and night out they don't jump on teams as often. They have a surge and if you can survive the surges you can beat the Heat. They are not the best coached team and the playoffs sort of emphasizes this IMO. Spo talks to them but they don't really respond, sort of do what they want when they want. They need a full 48 minutes, I agree with you on that for sure.
Dought Man
Footballguy
I'll never understand how Wade/Lebron pick and roll isn't more prominently featured in the Heat offense. Wade handles..Bron sets the pick...the end result will be one of three things the Heat want to do. Wade shot, Lebron shot or a wide open Battier/Miller in a corner when someone comes to help.
wilked
Footballguy
Refs announced... I will let you draw your own conclusions
Monty McCutchen, Ron Garretson, and Derrick Stafford
Here is all refs ranked by Home Team Win % (refs with <20 games excluded from data set)
http://i45.tinypic.com/2mw5fsz.jpg
All data from below
http://www.nbastuffer.com/2011-2012_NBA_Regular_Season_Referee_Stats.html
Monty McCutchen, Ron Garretson, and Derrick Stafford
Here is all refs ranked by Home Team Win % (refs with <20 games excluded from data set)
http://i45.tinypic.com/2mw5fsz.jpg
All data from below
http://www.nbastuffer.com/2011-2012_NBA_Regular_Season_Referee_Stats.html
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
The pre-emptive whine. ImpressiveRefs announced... I will let you draw your own conclusionsMonty McCutchen, Ron Garretson, and Derrick Stafford Here is all refs ranked by Home Team Win % (refs with <20 games excluded from data set)http://i45.tinypic.com/2mw5fsz.jpgAll data from belowhttp://www.nbastuffer.com/2011-2012_NBA_Regular_Season_Referee_Stats.html
boubucarow
Footballguy
What? They already got by the Bulls once. I thought the Bulls had a chance but didn't hear many people thing the Bulls were clear favorites.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Given the fact that two of the three ranked near the bottom of the league in home win % last season, I'm gonna draw the conclusion that it's entirely random and that whoever took the time to make that jpg probably is wearing tin foil on their head as I type.Refs announced... I will let you draw your own conclusions
Monty McCutchen, Ron Garretson, and Derrick Stafford
Here is all refs ranked by Home Team Win % (refs with <20 games excluded from data set)
http://i45.tinypic.com/2mw5fsz.jpg
All data from below
http://www.nbastuffer.com/2011-2012_NBA_Regular_Season_Referee_Stats.html
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
I heard a lot of talk that they'd have a tough time with the Bulls; not that the Bulls were a clear favorite.Similar threads
