*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (5 Viewers)

[timschochet]

Funny how everyone is saying that he should do this all the time. Guy is averaging 30/9.5/5 in the playoffs but that just isn't good enough apparently. Know who else is the only guy to do that? LeBron in 08/09. Hell, the only other guys to average 30/9 are Kareem, Shaq and Wilt!

He had 30 and 6 (I think) at halftime last night. If you didn't see a difference in LeBron's aggressiveness last night you know much less about basketball than I thought.

Plus, as Kurt Rambis pointed out on the radio, LeBron posted up a lot more last night. He received the ball much closer to the basket than he normally does. About a week ago I asked the question here: why doesn't LeBron post up more? Last night he did, and we saw the result. I don't want to call out Cliff Clavin and Tobias Funke (well, maybe Cliff Clavin) but LeBron really did play a different game last night. It wasn't just that his shots went in. He was more aggressive than normal.

How do you quantify that?

I thought I just did. He posted up more.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Funny how everyone is saying that he should do this all the time. Guy is averaging 30/9.5/5 in the playoffs but that just isn't good enough apparently. Know who else is the only guy to do that? LeBron in 08/09. Hell, the only other guys to average 30/9 are Kareem, Shaq and Wilt!

He had 30 and 6 (I think) at halftime last night. If you didn't see a difference in LeBron's aggressiveness last night you know much less about basketball than I thought.

Plus, as Kurt Rambis pointed out on the radio, LeBron posted up a lot more last night. He received the ball much closer to the basket than he normally does. About a week ago I asked the question here: why doesn't LeBron post up more? Last night he did, and we saw the result. I don't want to call out Cliff Clavin and Tobias Funke (well, maybe Cliff Clavin) but LeBron really did play a different game last night. It wasn't just that his shots went in. He was more aggressive than normal.

Kurt Rambis has to be the worst basketball analyst I've ever heard. Anything he says should be immediately disregarded IMO.Moving on to the actual point you're making: look at his shot chart. He actually a higher percentage of shots close to the basket in Game 5. I count ten shots in the pain in Game 5, six in Game 6. And the shots beyond 15 feet tell teh same story- he took more last night than he did in Game 5.

You're seeing what you want to see to fit a narrative. The truth, if you look at it without bias, is this: LeBron has been playing the same spectacular game for pretty much the entire playoff run.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Funny how everyone is saying that he should do this all the time. Guy is averaging 30/9.5/5 in the playoffs but that just isn't good enough apparently. Know who else is the only guy to do that? LeBron in 08/09. Hell, the only other guys to average 30/9 are Kareem, Shaq and Wilt!

He had 30 and 6 (I think) at halftime last night. If you didn't see a difference in LeBron's aggressiveness last night you know much less about basketball than I thought.

Plus, as Kurt Rambis pointed out on the radio, LeBron posted up a lot more last night. He received the ball much closer to the basket than he normally does. About a week ago I asked the question here: why doesn't LeBron post up more? Last night he did, and we saw the result. I don't want to call out Cliff Clavin and Tobias Funke (well, maybe Cliff Clavin) but LeBron really did play a different game last night. It wasn't just that his shots went in. He was more aggressive than normal.

How do you quantify that?

I thought I just did. He posted up more.

Catching the ball 15-20 feet from the basket with a guy on your back it not a postup. He had 9FTA (again, half of those came on pump fakes at the 3pt line) and 6 shots in the paint; not exactly what I'd called aggressive.

 

[Gr00vus]

How do you quantify that?

Number of championships the proposed all time great player has won.But seriously, we're having two different conversations. Some of us are saying there's more to this than just numbers, you keep responding with numbers or asking for numbers. It's not something we'll agree upon. These guys aren't robots, an actual NBA game isn't some statistical simulation model. You can't always measure what we're talking about with raw stats, but you can definitely experience it by watching the ebb and flow of games.

 

[TobiasFunke]

How do you quantify that?

Number of championships the proposed all time great player has won.

But seriously, we're having two different conversations. Some of us are saying there's more to this than just numbers, you keep responding with numbers or asking for numbers. It's not something we'll agree upon. These guys aren't robots, an actual NBA game isn't some statistical simulation model. You can't always measure what we're talking about with raw stats, but you can definitely experience it by watching the ebb and flow of games.

Right.The difference is that some of us only watch the game and experience the ebbs and flows, and some of us look at both. Do you think Ferris, Cliff and I were just watching the Gamecast on espn.com or something?

 

[Gr00vus]

People are talking about how aggressive LeBron was last night. He actually wasn't that more aggressive than usual. He hit a bunch of turnarounds and fallaways in the midrange. Now a couple of those were right out of the "Shake it right off the pass" program that made Hakeem Olajuwon famous, but a lot of them were shots normally thought of as settling...it's worth noting that while LeBron was hitting everything on offense, his primary defensive responsibility, Paul Pierce, was 3-for-16 from the floor and did not shoot a free throw in the first three quarters.

It was more than a couple. There was no hesitation in his game last night. If he had a shot, he took it. In the past few games, he's passing on many of those. Als,o showing up on D was just as big as showing up on O, a huge contrast between games 5 and 6. That's the kind of stuff we're talking about. That's what he needs to be doing every game - hit or miss.

 

[Gr00vus]

How do you quantify that?

Number of championships the proposed all time great player has won.

But seriously, we're having two different conversations. Some of us are saying there's more to this than just numbers, you keep responding with numbers or asking for numbers. It's not something we'll agree upon. These guys aren't robots, an actual NBA game isn't some statistical simulation model. You can't always measure what we're talking about with raw stats, but you can definitely experience it by watching the ebb and flow of games.

Right.The difference is that some of us only watch the game and experience the ebbs and flows, and some of us look at both. Do you think Ferris, Cliff and I were just watching the Gamecast on espn.com or something?

The way you talk about it, it sure does sound that way. We can all see the stats Tobes, you're not pointing out much we don't already know.

 

[TobiasFunke]

People are talking about how aggressive LeBron was last night. He actually wasn't that more aggressive than usual. He hit a bunch of turnarounds and fallaways in the midrange. Now a couple of those were right out of the "Shake it right off the pass" program that made Hakeem Olajuwon famous, but a lot of them were shots normally thought of as settling...it's worth noting that while LeBron was hitting everything on offense, his primary defensive responsibility, Paul Pierce, was 3-for-16 from the floor and did not shoot a free throw in the first three quarters.

It was more than a couple. There was no hesitation in his game last night. If he had a shot, he took it. In the past few games, he's passing on many of those. Als,o showing up on D was just as big as showing up on O, a huge contrast between games 5 and 6. That's the kind of stuff we're talking about. That's what he needs to be doing every game - hit or miss.

Pierce was 6 for 19 in Game 5.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

How do you quantify that?

Number of championships the proposed all time great player has won.But seriously, we're having two different conversations. Some of us are saying there's more to this than just numbers, you keep responding with numbers or asking for numbers. It's not something we'll agree upon. These guys aren't robots, an actual NBA game isn't some statistical simulation model. You can't always measure what we're talking about with raw stats, but you can definitely experience it by watching the ebb and flow of games.

I watched the entire game (well, I missed the first 2 minutes or so). I did not see anything different from LeBron other than him making a lot of jumpshots. Of course an NBA player to take more shots when he starts making them (heat check!). But LeBron didn't take any more shots than usual (maybe 1-2 more than he averages in the 1st half). Seriously, I really don't see what he did different. If he was constantly attacking the rim and living at the line, then I'd get behind this attitude/intensity stuff. But he didn't. He took jumpers all game and he happened to make a ridiculous % of them.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Abbott:

Because of desperation, determination or a lack of better options against incredible Boston defense, in Game 6 James expanded that repertoire dramatically, to include a large number of normally horrible shots ... shots he tries sometimes, and that the record shows are almost never even close to being the Heat's best option.

Dribbling into covered 3s, for instance. Long turnarounds with a hand in his face. Doubled in the post. Covered fallaway mid-range jumpers, drifting side-to-side.

Just getting the Heat to attempt those lousy shots is a win for Boston's defense.

Does that sound like the description of aggressive play? And for all the 'he should do that every game' people:

But there's another common response, which is: He should do that every game.

That's hilarious.

The first reason it's hilarious is ... you caught the part about how that's the best NBA playoffs stat line since Wilt Chamberlain, right? Wilt did it 48 years ago. One once-every-50-year games is a lot from any player. Expecting them every night is loco.

The second reason it's hilarious is that it would not be in the Heat's interest for James to take those same shots again. (Doc Rivers told ESPN's Doris Burke mid-game he was fine with LeBron taking all those tough shots.) James is good as a wide-open jump shooter, and he had some of those opportunities. Same goes for put-backs, deep post-ups, transition buckets, cuts and short pull-ups.

 

[shader]

Lets look at reality:

In games 4 and 5, Lebron took 25 shots. In game 6, he took 26.

So its not as if he "took over, because he's always taking a bunch of shots.

I personally think Lebron stops looking for his shot when he is struggling.

In game 4, he was 1-8 outside of the paint. In game 5 he was 4-12 outside the paint.

In game 6, he was 13-19!

So in reality, he spent a whole lot more time outside shooting jumpers last night than he did in previous games.

The fact that he was "in beast mode" is simply a factor of him hitting his shots.

That's not to say that last night wasn't special, or that he wasn't extraordinary. He was.

But its not as if he simply imposed his will on the opposition, took it to the hole and made it happen inside. He just found his jumper.

BTW, Michael Jordan averaged 25 attempts per game over his entire playoff career.

Kobe Bryant has been under 23 attempts per game for his playoff career.

Historically, Lebron has been under 21 attempts per game. This season he's stepped it up a little bit. But in the past couple of games, he's stepped it up even more, taking a Jordan-esque number of shots.

In the last game, the shots just fell, where they weren't falling in games 4 and 5.

It will be interesting to see if he continues to take this many shots, or reverts back to 21/game territory. I think it is better for his psyche if he takes a lot of shots. Sometimes it seems when he's looking to pass, that he occasionally will take shots just because no one else is open. But when he is determined to score, he gets better looks.

I like him much better taking 25 shots a game, but he needs his team to stop throwing up a bunch of bricks or it won't matter what he does.

 

[Gr00vus]

People are talking about how aggressive LeBron was last night. He actually wasn't that more aggressive than usual. He hit a bunch of turnarounds and fallaways in the midrange. Now a couple of those were right out of the "Shake it right off the pass" program that made Hakeem Olajuwon famous, but a lot of them were shots normally thought of as settling...it's worth noting that while LeBron was hitting everything on offense, his primary defensive responsibility, Paul Pierce, was 3-for-16 from the floor and did not shoot a free throw in the first three quarters.

It was more than a couple. There was no hesitation in his game last night. If he had a shot, he took it. In the past few games, he's passing on many of those. Als,o showing up on D was just as big as showing up on O, a huge contrast between games 5 and 6. That's the kind of stuff we're talking about. That's what he needs to be doing every game - hit or miss.

Pierce was 6 for 19 in Game 5.

If you think LeBron played well on D in game 5, I don't really know what to say except that he didn't - and it was obvious when watching it go down. But you've just provided more proof of what I'm saying - numbers don't tell the whole story. It really does seem like too often all you go on is the box score.

 

[tommyGunZ]

How do you quantify that?

Number of championships the proposed all time great player has won.

But seriously, we're having two different conversations. Some of us are saying there's more to this than just numbers, you keep responding with numbers or asking for numbers. It's not something we'll agree upon. These guys aren't robots, an actual NBA game isn't some statistical simulation model. You can't always measure what we're talking about with raw stats, but you can definitely experience it by watching the ebb and flow of games.

Right.The difference is that some of us only watch the game and experience the ebbs and flows, and some of us look at both. Do you think Ferris, Cliff and I were just watching the Gamecast on espn.com or something?

I have no idea if you guys actually watched the game last night. I can assure you that your insinuation that you, Ferris, and Cliff are the only ones who actually track game stats is wrong.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Given the location, stakes, and circumstances, LeBron had one of the greatest individual performances of this NBA era, if not the entire history of the damn league.

I agree. Last night was an absolute masterpiece. LeBron completely controlled the game from the jump until early in the 4th quarter, when the Celtics essentially gave up.The Detroit game may have been better theater with all the late game heroics, but last night was his best game as a pro overall, IMO. He was a hungry serial killer for 40+ minutes.

 

[TobiasFunke]

How do you quantify that?

Number of championships the proposed all time great player has won.

But seriously, we're having two different conversations. Some of us are saying there's more to this than just numbers, you keep responding with numbers or asking for numbers. It's not something we'll agree upon. These guys aren't robots, an actual NBA game isn't some statistical simulation model. You can't always measure what we're talking about with raw stats, but you can definitely experience it by watching the ebb and flow of games.

Right.The difference is that some of us only watch the game and experience the ebbs and flows, and some of us look at both. Do you think Ferris, Cliff and I were just watching the Gamecast on espn.com or something?

I have no idea if you guys actually watched the game last night. I can assure you that your insinuation that you, Ferris, and Cliff are the only ones who actually track game stats is wrong.

My post was a response to Groovus', who was talking about how some things are only detectable by following the ebbs and flows of the game. I would agree with that, but I'm guessing that all of us "watched the ebb and flow of the game," so it's kind of a silly argument to make.However, based on the comments from many about LeBron being much more "aggressive" on the offensive end despite the statistics regarding his FG and FT attempts and shot selection that show that this was pretty much exactly the same as his other games, it kind of does seem like there are some people here who aren't bothering to look up the stats before they draw a conclusion.

 

[shader]

How do you quantify that?

Number of championships the proposed all time great player has won.

But seriously, we're having two different conversations. Some of us are saying there's more to this than just numbers, you keep responding with numbers or asking for numbers. It's not something we'll agree upon. These guys aren't robots, an actual NBA game isn't some statistical simulation model. You can't always measure what we're talking about with raw stats, but you can definitely experience it by watching the ebb and flow of games.

Right.The difference is that some of us only watch the game and experience the ebbs and flows, and some of us look at both. Do you think Ferris, Cliff and I were just watching the Gamecast on espn.com or something?

I have no idea if you guys actually watched the game last night. I can assure you that your insinuation that you, Ferris, and Cliff are the only ones who actually track game stats is wrong.

My post was a response to Groovus', who was talking about how some things are only detectable by following the ebbs and flows of the game. I would agree with that, but I'm guessing that all of us "watched the ebb and flow of the game," so it's kind of a silly argument to make.However, based on the comments from many about LeBron being much more "aggressive" on the offensive end despite the statistics regarding his FG and FT attempts and shot selection that show that this was pretty much exactly the same as his other games, it kind of does seem like there are some people here who aren't bothering to look up the stats before they draw a conclusion.

Not only that, but he took MORE outside jumpers yesterday than he did the previous couple of games. He was just on fire.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Abbott:

Because of desperation, determination or a lack of better options against incredible Boston defense, in Game 6 James expanded that repertoire dramatically, to include a large number of normally horrible shots ... shots he tries sometimes, and that the record shows are almost never even close to being the Heat's best option.

Dribbling into covered 3s, for instance. Long turnarounds with a hand in his face. Doubled in the post. Covered fallaway mid-range jumpers, drifting side-to-side.

Just getting the Heat to attempt those lousy shots is a win for Boston's defense.

Does that sound like the description of aggressive play? And for all the 'he should do that every game' people:

But there's another common response, which is: He should do that every game.

That's hilarious.

The first reason it's hilarious is ... you caught the part about how that's the best NBA playoffs stat line since Wilt Chamberlain, right? Wilt did it 48 years ago. One once-every-50-year games is a lot from any player. Expecting them every night is loco.

The second reason it's hilarious is that it would not be in the Heat's interest for James to take those same shots again. (Doc Rivers told ESPN's Doris Burke mid-game he was fine with LeBron taking all those tough shots.) James is good as a wide-open jump shooter, and he had some of those opportunities. Same goes for put-backs, deep post-ups, transition buckets, cuts and short pull-ups.

Did you finish Abbott's article Cliff? Specifically, this part:

Meanwhile, there is one thing about LeBron James' Game 6 that is immediately exportable to Game 7, the Finals and beyond. Dwyane Wade noticed it, and mentioned it in the post-game press conference: That focus.

"LeBron James is not a great shooter," says David Thorpe. "And focus has always been an issue for him, even since high school, when he was so much better than everyone that it was easy to get bored. He doesn't have supreme concentration skills, because he never had to hone them. Now that he has had a game where he was almost silent, completely locked in every second, and delivered maybe the second top performance in history ... you can't expect these numbers again. But you can expect that focus."

Are DWade and David Thorpe LeBron haters who don't pay attention to statistics?

 

[shader]

I agree he looked focused, but if he shot 33% yesterday, people would have said he's lost his love of the game based on his expressions.

 

[shader]

Yeah, that's what I'd expect to happen and it'd be exciting (I'm a Bobcats fan with not much else to look forward to). It's just that LeBron's Heat appear to be the weaker team at the moment and they have a much, much shorter window. Scary to think that, by the time KD turns 27, Wade'll probably be done and Bosh will be 32.

If the argument is "MIA's championship window is wide open as long as LeBron is in his prime and healthy", then MIA has a long run ahead of them. But the LeBron/Wade/Bosh MIA title window isn't really open that much longer. Because of Wade's playing style and injury history, IMO Wade's decline won't be slow and graceful; he will fall off a cliff. MIA's decision to surround LeBron/Wade/Bosh with with 30+ guys that weren't that athletic to begin with like James Jones, Mike Miller, and Shane Battier isn't helping, either.

They have to make some changes in the 4-10 guys. I personally think that if they win a championship, they'll keep the big three.If they lose, they'll get rid of Bosh.They really need a great three point shooter, an interior defender, and one more young and athletic guy that can make occasional plays.

 

[Gr00vus]

if there was no hesitation in his game last night

There wasn't, plain and simple. If you don't know that you didn't watch the ####### game.

and he was shooting right off of the pass

Shooting right off the pass isn't close to the entirety of showing no hesitation in his game. The rest of that segment of your wall of text is support of a straw man.

LeBron has 54 defensive rebounds and 8 blocks in this series. His primary defensive assignment has been Paul Pierce, who has been three decent offensive games and three awful ones. In the fourth quarters and OT, LeBron has guarded everyone from Rajon Rondo to Kevin Garnett depending on matchups, foul situations, and teammates' health. If you don't think LeBron hasn't been showing up on D, especially not showing up on D in Game 5 when Pierce's eFG% and TS% were over 100 points lower than his season averages, then about 98% of the league doesn't show up on D.

Wait - so first you say in fourth quarters LeBron covers everyone from Rondo to Garnett, then you try to make some statement about whether LeBron did or didn't play D based on Pierce's shooting? Which is it? In truth it doesn't matter - his effort on D in game 5 wasn't good, as anyone who watched the game (including Srkibbles if some of his posts on that point are to be believed) plainly saw. You're not doing your arguments any favors by trying to prop up that stance.

 

[timschochet]

Why doesn't LeBron play like that every night? Because no one has ever played the game like that every night. Hardly anyone has ever played one game like this on any night. In the last 27 seasons (1), including playoffs, only 34 times has a player scored 45 points and pulled down 15 rebounds in the same game, only 5 of those performances were in the playoffs, and most of them are attached to names like "O'Neal", "Olajuwon", and "Malone". Filtering out the Cs and PFs... perimeter players have put up 45-and-15 six times since 1986:Jordan put up 69-and-18 in an OT win over CLE in the 1990 regular season. MJ played 50 minutes.Kobe put up 48-and-16 in a Game 4 win over SAC to sweep the Kings in the 2001 playoffs. Kobe played all 48 minutes.Vince Carter put up 46-and-16 in an OT win over WAS in the 2007 regular season. Carter played 47 minutes.Durant put up 46-and-15 in a loss to LAC in the 2009 regular season (2). Durant played 46 minutes.Durant put up 47-and-18 in an OT win over MIN in the 2011 regular season (3). Durant played played 50 minutes.LeBron put up 45-and-15 in a Game 6 road win over BOS in the 2012 playoffs to force Game 7. James played 45 minutes.Given the location, stakes, and circumstances, LeBron had one of the greatest individual performances of this NBA era, if not the entire history of the damn league. ---------------------(1) A seemingly-arbitrary cutoff thanks to basketball-reference.com, whose searchable box score data goes back to 1986.(2) Going into this game, the Clippers were 9-32 and the Thunder were 8-35. I'm surprised someone even bothered to bring a pencil into the arena to score the game.(3) After Durant hit a jumper to put OKC up by 2, MIN embarked on a comedy of errors on the last possession; in the last 14 seconds, the Wolves managed to miss three field goal attempts and one free throw that would have tied or won the game.

This is why using statistics to make definitive comments about player performance in the NBA is usually futile. When I and others asked, "Why doesn't LeBron play like this every night?" we are not talking about results. We are talking about shooting the ball without hesitation, and posting up, and moving without the ball, and all the little things that define being more aggressive but which are unrecorded by statistics. Forget the statistics- simply use the eyeball test. If you watched LeBron in games 3, 4, 5, and then watched him in game 6, it was a different performance. He was great in most of the games, especially in the first 3 quarters of game 5. But in game 6 he took it to a different level entirely, not simply in results, which are quanitifiable, but in effort, which is not.

 

[Max Power]

Yeah, that's what I'd expect to happen and it'd be exciting (I'm a Bobcats fan with not much else to look forward to). It's just that LeBron's Heat appear to be the weaker team at the moment and they have a much, much shorter window. Scary to think that, by the time KD turns 27, Wade'll probably be done and Bosh will be 32.

If the argument is "MIA's championship window is wide open as long as LeBron is in his prime and healthy", then MIA has a long run ahead of them. But the LeBron/Wade/Bosh MIA title window isn't really open that much longer. Because of Wade's playing style and injury history, IMO Wade's decline won't be slow and graceful; he will fall off a cliff. MIA's decision to surround LeBron/Wade/Bosh with with 30+ guys that weren't that athletic to begin with like James Jones, Mike Miller, and Shane Battier isn't helping, either.

When you pay 3 guys close to the Max, those are the only type of moves avilable. LUCKY for the Heat, Haslem took a major pay cut to stay. Windhorse (or however you spell it) was on a ESPN radio show a week or two ago talking about how the HEAT have at most 2 more years together due to the tax implications under the new CBA.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Why doesn't LeBron play like that every night? Because no one has ever played the game like that every night. Hardly anyone has ever played one game like this on any night. In the last 27 seasons (1), including playoffs, only 34 times has a player scored 45 points and pulled down 15 rebounds in the same game, only 5 of those performances were in the playoffs, and most of them are attached to names like "O'Neal", "Olajuwon", and "Malone". Filtering out the Cs and PFs... perimeter players have put up 45-and-15 six times since 1986:Jordan put up 69-and-18 in an OT win over CLE in the 1990 regular season. MJ played 50 minutes.Kobe put up 48-and-16 in a Game 4 win over SAC to sweep the Kings in the 2001 playoffs. Kobe played all 48 minutes.Vince Carter put up 46-and-16 in an OT win over WAS in the 2007 regular season. Carter played 47 minutes.Durant put up 46-and-15 in a loss to LAC in the 2009 regular season (2). Durant played 46 minutes.Durant put up 47-and-18 in an OT win over MIN in the 2011 regular season (3). Durant played played 50 minutes.LeBron put up 45-and-15 in a Game 6 road win over BOS in the 2012 playoffs to force Game 7. James played 45 minutes.Given the location, stakes, and circumstances, LeBron had one of the greatest individual performances of this NBA era, if not the entire history of the damn league. ---------------------(1) A seemingly-arbitrary cutoff thanks to basketball-reference.com, whose searchable box score data goes back to 1986.(2) Going into this game, the Clippers were 9-32 and the Thunder were 8-35. I'm surprised someone even bothered to bring a pencil into the arena to score the game.(3) After Durant hit a jumper to put OKC up by 2, MIN embarked on a comedy of errors on the last possession; in the last 14 seconds, the Wolves managed to miss three field goal attempts and one free throw that would have tied or won the game.

This is why using statistics to make definitive comments about player performance in the NBA is usually futile. When I and others asked, "Why doesn't LeBron play like this every night?" we are not talking about results. We are talking about shooting the ball without hesitation, and posting up, and moving without the ball, and all the little things that define being more aggressive but which are unrecorded by statistics. Forget the statistics- simply use the eyeball test. If you watched LeBron in games 3, 4, 5, and then watched him in game 6, it was a different performance. He was great in most of the games, especially in the first 3 quarters of game 5. But in game 6 he took it to a different level entirely, not simply in results, which are quanitifiable, but in effort, which is not.

We've been through this 1000 times, but here it is again: one advantage of the stat approach - most would say the primary advantage of the stat approach- is that the eyeball test lies to you constantly. Psychologists can probably tick off more cognitive biases than LeBron had points last night. That's the value of the numbers. They don't seek out a narrative. They don't look to prove or disprove a theory. They don't see facial expressions or high-fives. They don't listen to those inane ESPN guys at halftime. They don't care who wins or loses or who plays well or doesn't. Let me put it this way- there are a few examples when someone as a valid perception of a game that the stats don't capture, yes. But there are a thousand times more examples when the stats correct an invalid perception. And that's what you're seeing here. Take all the people talking about how LeBron stepped up and was more aggressive and all that. If we didn't have access to the stats or shot charts and I asked if they thought LeBron took more shots than usual last night, or took more shots in the paint than usual last night, or took more shots at the rim than usual last night, I bet you a million dollars they all would have said "yes" to all three questions. I know I would have. And we would have been wrong. That doesn't prove that the stats have less value, it shows that they can correct our mistakes.Nobody can invalidate vague concepts like "effort" and "aggressiveness," so it's literally impossible to prove you wrong. All I can do is appeal to common sense.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Can we speculate about who's going to be "clutch" and who's going to "step up" tomorrow? And then make generalizations on the quality of various players' careers based on the results of said game?

 

[tommyGunZ]

Why doesn't LeBron play like that every night? Because no one has ever played the game like that every night.

I don't think anyone who's serious about hoops is asking why LeBron doesn't put up 45-15-5 on 71% shooting every night. They're talking about the focus, intensity, and aggressiveness that LeBron displayed from the opening tip on last night.I'd have said the same thing regardless of the results, whether LeBron got 45 last night or 25. His approach last night was different. DWade saw it, twitter was ablaze with tweets from NBA players last night who saw it and piped up, all the analysts saw it, the commentators, etc.

 

[Wrighteous Ray]

Can we speculate about who's going to be "clutch" and who's going to "step up" tomorrow?

I don't think anyone will be clutch tomorrow.

 

[Wrighteous Ray]

Can we speculate about who's going to be "clutch" and who's going to "step up" tomorrow?

I don't think anyone will be clutch tomorrow.

Crap, I thought the game was Sunday. Everyone will be clutch tomorrow.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Can we speculate about who's going to be "clutch" and who's going to "step up" tomorrow?

I don't think anyone will be clutch tomorrow.

Crap, I thought the game was Sunday. Everyone will be clutch tomorrow.

Depending on tomorrow, LeBron is either going to be great or have a disappointing career.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Tobias, Ferris and Clavin, I usually agree with you guys about LBJ, but in regards to last night, James was simply on another level than he is usually is (and that usual level is still above everyone already most of the time). He just had a different look about him last night. It is not something you can see on the stat sheet or quantify by anything objective; it was just something you could see watching the game.

 

[Todem]

As Tobias said earlier (and what I agree with) is that LeBron didn't do anything different last night other that hit a higher %. It wasn't like has was attacking the rim like a mad man and living at the line. Heck, half his FTs came from pump faking on the perimeter. He was taking contested fade aways most of the game and just happened to be making them at a high %. I don't know where this "attitude" stuff is coming from. Looked like the same player who had a hot shooting night.ETA: Change 3-4 of his misses to makes in any game this series and we're talking about that game being a legendary performance.

This is why I think it's crazy that people are writing off the Celtics. The Heat didn't find any unbeatable formula other than "hit most of your jump shots."

No they actually played defense for 48 minutes. It helps when the other team is off...but a lot of those misses...were bad shots, with hands in their face. The Heat played hard on defense. We are a top 3 defeisve team in this league. Defense and turnovers. That is what I have been waiting for the last three games.Game 7 will be tighter. But the Heat will prevail. Lebron will not let Boston beat his team. It's his team. It has been all year. Wade is the co-pilot this year and going forward.having Chris Bosh back is massive. I get sick when i hear Magic say over and over..no excuse because Boston is missing ther freaking rookie guard.Your comparing a 7 footer 18/7 a night guy to a rookie off the bench? COME ON!!!!Anyway. Game 7...great series so far. It should be fun.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Abbott:

Because of desperation, determination or a lack of better options against incredible Boston defense, in Game 6 James expanded that repertoire dramatically, to include a large number of normally horrible shots ... shots he tries sometimes, and that the record shows are almost never even close to being the Heat's best option.

Dribbling into covered 3s, for instance. Long turnarounds with a hand in his face. Doubled in the post. Covered fallaway mid-range jumpers, drifting side-to-side.

Just getting the Heat to attempt those lousy shots is a win for Boston's defense.

Does that sound like the description of aggressive play? And for all the 'he should do that every game' people:

But there's another common response, which is: He should do that every game.

That's hilarious.

The first reason it's hilarious is ... you caught the part about how that's the best NBA playoffs stat line since Wilt Chamberlain, right? Wilt did it 48 years ago. One once-every-50-year games is a lot from any player. Expecting them every night is loco.

The second reason it's hilarious is that it would not be in the Heat's interest for James to take those same shots again. (Doc Rivers told ESPN's Doris Burke mid-game he was fine with LeBron taking all those tough shots.) James is good as a wide-open jump shooter, and he had some of those opportunities. Same goes for put-backs, deep post-ups, transition buckets, cuts and short pull-ups.

Did you finish Abbott's article Cliff? Specifically, this part:

Meanwhile, there is one thing about LeBron James' Game 6 that is immediately exportable to Game 7, the Finals and beyond. Dwyane Wade noticed it, and mentioned it in the post-game press conference: That focus.

"LeBron James is not a great shooter," says David Thorpe. "And focus has always been an issue for him, even since high school, when he was so much better than everyone that it was easy to get bored. He doesn't have supreme concentration skills, because he never had to hone them. Now that he has had a game where he was almost silent, completely locked in every second, and delivered maybe the second top performance in history ... you can't expect these numbers again. But you can expect that focus."

Are DWade and David Thorpe LeBron haters who don't pay attention to statistics?

I read the whole thing. I just disregarded the part where the sports writer turned into a psychologist. Maybe matuski can give us a break down of LeBron's focus as well.

 

[Todem]

Tobias, Ferris and Clavin, I usually agree with you guys about LBJ, but in regards to last night, James was simply on another level than he is usually is (and that usual level is still above everyone already most of the time). He just had a different look about him last night. It is not something you can see on the stat sheet or quantify by anything objective; it was just something you could see watching the game.

Agree 100%. Nothing was going to rattle him, laser focus, relaxed, and clearly in a zone like I have never seen him in. His body language, his snarl, his approach. Intangibles that stat's can't quantify. If you have played sports on any competitve level....you understand this aspect. Stat's never tell that side of the equation. Lebron was in beast mode all night. he would not let this game be his last this season. It was glorious watching this as a die hard Heat fan.This series has produed two legendary games IMO. Game 2 was Rondo in this zone. Game 6 was Lebron.Awesome stuff.

 

[the moops]

Lebron James starts more internet fights than all other basketball player combined.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Why doesn't LeBron play like that every night? Because no one has ever played the game like that every night.

I don't think anyone who's serious about hoops is asking why LeBron doesn't put up 45-15-5 on 71% shooting every night. They're talking about the focus, intensity, and aggressiveness that LeBron displayed from the opening tip on last night.I'd have said the same thing regardless of the results, whether LeBron got 45 last night or 25. His approach last night was different. DWade saw it, twitter was ablaze with tweets from NBA players last night who saw it and piped up, all the analysts saw it, the commentators, etc.

FYI, focus, intensity and aggressiveness are pretty much the standard adjectives used by teammates/media when a player has a great night. What else are they supposed to say? 'He was kinda aloof, passive and unfocused when he dropped those 50 points'.Oh, they did miss 'he was in the zone'.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Lebron James starts more internet fights than all other basketball player combined.

Only if the Lakers have already been eliminated.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Wait - so first you say in fourth quarters LeBron covers everyone from Rondo to Garnett, then you try to make some statement about whether LeBron did or didn't play D based on Pierce's shooting? Which is it? In truth it doesn't matter - his effort on D in game 5 wasn't good, as anyone who watched the game (including Srkibbles if some of his posts on that point are to be believed) plainly saw. You're not doing your arguments any favors by trying to prop up that stance.

I'm not sure I said he played terrible defense, if I did, it was more of a general 'the Heat played terrible defense'. I said the offense wasn't the problem but the defense was; not singling out LeBron (although he did sag off Pierce too much on the dagger IMO).

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Love the footnote shtick.

 

[ChainsawU]

The hard part is blocking out the situation, the distractions and the consequences of poor play. Then performing at a level that not only quells all fear of elimination from your teammates and fans, but simultaneously eliminates any drive your opponent has to try to win the game.

That was the “feel” that I got from the performance midway through the third quarter. And that was what made it great.

 

[Gr00vus]

Wait - so first you say in fourth quarters LeBron covers everyone from Rondo to Garnett, then you try to make some statement about whether LeBron did or didn't play D based on Pierce's shooting? Which is it?

If you're one of those people who thinks the fourth quarter is the only part of the game that counts, then you won't understand my argument (1). The dilemma you pose is a false one unless the fourth quarter is the only part of the game that counts.If you examine Pierce's shooting in Q1-Q3, it's subpar by Pierce's standards, like the 3-for-16 he shot in Q1-Q3 of Game 6, and the 4-for-16 he shot in Q1-Q3 of Game 5, and the 5-for-17 he shot in Q1-Q3 of Game 1. That's why I said Pierce has had three decent offensive games and three awful ones in this series. But if the 4th quarter is the only one that matters, then none of that matters. (2)

In truth it doesn't matter - his effort on D in game 5 wasn't good, as anyone who watched the game (including Srkibbles if some of his posts on that point are to be believed) plainly saw. You're not doing your arguments any favors by trying to prop up that stance.

According to the logic exhibited by you in this post, the fourth quarter is the only one that matters and I didn't even watch the game, so I can't imagine any set of circumstances where anything I say about the game matters, so I'm surprised you're even bothering with grading my arguments. -----------------------(1) Nor would you think LeBron played well last night. Once again the guy freaking disappeared down the stretch: zero points, zero assists, and once again unwilling to even shoot the ball in the last six minutes. When will this chump finally show up in a big game?!?(2) There's also the high probability Pierce took some of those shots when someone besides LeBron was guarding him, and I'm sure we could find data breaking down Pierce's shooting percentages based on who was guarding him. But you stopped listening a long time ago, so why bother?

When did I ever say the 4th quarter is the only one that mattered? I'm pretty sure I never said that. Why are you putting words in my mouth? You're the guy who brought up the 4th quarter, not me - I'm just following on from what you wrote. Further, James covered multiple guys throughout the game - not just the 4th quarter. So picking out one of the guys he covers as sole evidence of how he did on D that game is silly. Beyond that, the 4th quarter isn't the only one that matters, but it matters at least as much as the other three - when you suck on D in the 4th, it doesn't mean you get brownie points for not sucking the other 3 quarters, particularly in a tight game. I mean, that's really what myself and others have been saying - you did well the first three quarters, why not keep that up the whole game, or at least close to it? Further, you know as well as I that it's not just his man on man D that makes LeBron great - he's maybe the best team defender I've ever seen (when he feels like it). I saw very little of that in game 5 - did you?Is it really your assertion that there was no difference in LeBron's approach to or effort in games 5 and 6? I'm not talking numbers - just watching the games, you didn't get the impression that he had very different mindsets in those 2 games? If that's the case, you're right, we're never going to come to some kind of understanding here.

 

[Gr00vus]

Wait - so first you say in fourth quarters LeBron covers everyone from Rondo to Garnett, then you try to make some statement about whether LeBron did or didn't play D based on Pierce's shooting? Which is it? In truth it doesn't matter - his effort on D in game 5 wasn't good, as anyone who watched the game (including Srkibbles if some of his posts on that point are to be believed) plainly saw. You're not doing your arguments any favors by trying to prop up that stance.

I'm not sure I said he played terrible defense, if I did, it was more of a general 'the Heat played terrible defense'. I said the offense wasn't the problem but the defense was; not singling out LeBron (although he did sag off Pierce too much on the dagger IMO).

Show me how to correctly interpret the following exchange then - because apparently I'm not getting the right conclusion from what you wrote:

The Heat scored 30 points in the 4th Q. 30. Only the 2nd time in the series they have scored 30+ in a Q in this series and people are seriously ragging on LeBron for not taking more shots? Idiots.

Can we rag on him for not playing D down the stretch? Or passing up wide open shots? I guess LeBron didn't defer to Norris Cole quite enough, otherwise they would have won. Idiots.

To the bolded, for sure. Criticizing their offense would be pretty dumb though.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Is it really your assertion that there was no difference in LeBron's approach to or effort in games 5 and 6? I'm not talking numbers - just watching the games, you didn't get the impression that he had very different mindsets in those 2 games? If that's the case, you're right, we're never going to come to some kind of understanding here.

Consider the flip side. Imagine LeBron had played exactly the same on every single possession- literally every single thing he did on both offense and defense was exactly the same- except that instead of hitting 73% from the field he hit 33% and the Heat lost the game. Just a run of terrible luck, jump shots seemingly going halfway down before coming off the rim every time he put one up. Do you think you and other posters and the ESPN talking heads would still be praising his effort and aggressiveness? If you think so, you're full of

 

[Gr00vus]

Is it really your assertion that there was no difference in LeBron's approach to or effort in games 5 and 6? I'm not talking numbers - just watching the games, you didn't get the impression that he had very different mindsets in those 2 games? If that's the case, you're right, we're never going to come to some kind of understanding here.

Consider the flip side. Imagine LeBron had played exactly the same on every single possession- literally every single thing he did on both offense and defense was exactly the same- except that instead of hitting 73% from the field he hit 33% and the Heat lost the game. Just a run of terrible luck, jump shots seemingly going halfway down before coming off the rim every time he put one up. Do you think you and other posters and the ESPN talking heads would still be praising his effort and aggressiveness? If you think so, you're full of

You want to know what I think? I think at the point he realized his outside shot wasn't working, he'd have taken it to the rack. Hooray, now we can have a stupid argument about stuff that didn't even happen!!!

 

[TobiasFunke]

You want to know what I think? I think at the point he realized his outside shot wasn't working, he'd have taken it to the rack. Hooray, now we can have a stupid argument about stuff that didn't even happen!!!

I could ask what you'd say if those drives to the rim also came up empty, but I sense we won't get anywhere. Like I said, when someone argues about vague, indefinable concepts it's impossible to prove them wrong. That's why narratives will never die- it's just too easy to keep changing themto match the results.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Wait - so first you say in fourth quarters LeBron covers everyone from Rondo to Garnett, then you try to make some statement about whether LeBron did or didn't play D based on Pierce's shooting? Which is it? In truth it doesn't matter - his effort on D in game 5 wasn't good, as anyone who watched the game (including Srkibbles if some of his posts on that point are to be believed) plainly saw. You're not doing your arguments any favors by trying to prop up that stance.

I'm not sure I said he played terrible defense, if I did, it was more of a general 'the Heat played terrible defense'. I said the offense wasn't the problem but the defense was; not singling out LeBron (although he did sag off Pierce too much on the dagger IMO).

Show me how to correctly interpret the following exchange then - because apparently I'm not getting the right conclusion from what you wrote:

The Heat scored 30 points in the 4th Q. 30. Only the 2nd time in the series they have scored 30+ in a Q in this series and people are seriously ragging on LeBron for not taking more shots? Idiots.

Can we rag on him for not playing D down the stretch? Or passing up wide open shots? I guess LeBron didn't defer to Norris Cole quite enough, otherwise they would have won. Idiots.

To the bolded, for sure. Criticizing their offense would be pretty dumb though.

I said you could. Didn't say if it would be accurate.ETA: I wasn't locked in on LeBron's D the entire game so I'm not going to argue either way. I've seen the replay off Pierce's shot which could be argued wasn't great D that is just one play.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Lebron James starts more internet fights than all other basketball player combined.

If Kobe Bryant played soccer instead of basketball (1) and if Shaquille O'Neal had answered his true calling and signed with the WWF (2) instead of the NBA, I'd agree with you. That said, I don't see a player on the horizon that will become as polarizing as LeBron, so we're still early in LeBron's career arc as a dominant Internet fight-starter.--------------(1) Disclosure: I've wished for this on more than one occasion. And when I say "one", I mean "ten".(2) The first pass at this sentence incorporated "sumo wrestling", but Shaq's relatively high center of gravity would have hurt him. Yes, I did think that one through at that level. It's a blessing and a curse.

Assuming #1, Ronaldo and Messi would lose a slot in the world rankings.I think LeBron's career arc is peaking - if/when he wins multiple titles, those who argue against him will lose what little ammunition they have left. For that reason alone, I hope we get KG and Rondo in game 7 instead of KJ and Hondo.

 

[Premier]

Man Simmons hit a grand slam with his grantland article today. About his daughter becoming a sports fan.

 

[Pick]

I'd play the same way if I were the Celtics. Not only was Lebron on fire but he was making some very tough shots. If he makes those all night like he did then you tip your hat to him. But really isn't that what you want as a Celtic? LBJ shooting a bunch of tough shots?

 

[Pick]

Also thought droopy eyes made a good point about transition defense. Heat seem to really struggle to get back and find their man.

 

[Daywalker]

Don't think any Lebron fan should be satisfied until he is playing on/near the block 75% of the time. Even last night was frustrating as he would be unstoppable with his back to the basket only to be trying to direct the offense at the three-point line the next 3-4 minutes.

Lebron should be feed the ball down-low at every opportunity. Just playing around otherwise. Maybe if an over-the-hill Celts eliminates him and he enters year 10 he'll finally realize this.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Tobias, Ferris and Clavin, I usually agree with you guys about LBJ, but in regards to last night, James was simply on another level than he is usually is (and that usual level is still above everyone already most of the time). He just had a different look about him last night. It is not something you can see on the stat sheet or quantify by anything objective; it was just something you could see watching the game.

That is why stats are great! We all see different things when we watch it. You (and many others) saw something different about him apparently. I saw the same LeBron that shows up every night only this time he hit a ridiculous % of his shots. All the statistics debunk the 'he was more aggressive' tagline which goes along with what I saw; LeBron taking a lot of jumpers. If he had actually been more aggressive, we'd have seen more FTA and points in the paint. Unless we aren't on the same page as what to constitutes aggressiveness. As for 'focus' and 'intensity', I'm shuked. What made you believe he was more intense or focused than normal? As I said earlier, those are adjectives used after every athlete, regardless of sport, has a good game.