*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (7 Viewers)

[Daywalker]

As a Laker fans love these mocks with them passing on Gordon let alone having a chance to draft him. .

Marcus Smart? 6'4" poor shooting ball-handler? Doesn't have crazy athleticism either. Not going to get to the line in the NBA. No thanks.

 

[Daywalker]

Parker the easy #1 with Embiid's foot issues. You get Parker in prime shape he is an 8-10 time All-Star type. Pencil it in. Can't miss.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

4-6 month recovery for Embid

Perfectly fine for me. Noel sat a whole year. Why is letting Embiid sit so scary now?

Nobody gives a crap about Embiid missing time this year. It's the possibility of drafting a big with bad feet and a bad back part.That, and drafting Noel didn't really mean passing up a really good chance to get a great player.

Hell, speaking of Noel, look how far his injury caused him to drop in a draft where Anthony freaking Bennett went number 1 overall. Bennett probably wouldn't go in the top 20 this year.

What great player are we missing out on?

Exum.

I understand your point, though.

Say Exum is good to great, is that a game changer? Is having a good to great point guard the piece you need to build a championship team especially when you have a potential good PG already? How about an athletic 4 that has the potential for good to greatness? Seems like the upside is worth the risk with the 4 than the 1.

Obviously I really know nothing about him, but from what I've read, it sounds like he can be a shooting guard, so both can play together. So if Exum's ceiling is an 80 and Embiid's is a 95, but Exum has a 75% chance of getting there and Embiid only 50% (just using hypothetical numbers), then Exum is the better pick.

But I can see the argument that Embiid's true value could be exponentially greater, because a top 5 player is worth a lot more than a random top 20 player than a straight ranking would suggest.

really need to take into acct how much salary cap room the Sixers will have fior next few years. i am sure they are targeting some guys and will draft with the idea they may land them. there is no team in better salary cap shape then the Sixers for the next few years

what?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Sg:

Harden

George if you think he's a 2

Beal

Afflalo on his current deal

Matthews on current deal

Derozan on current deal

Thompson on a Max deal

Lance getting paid.

Gets pretty thin after that.

It all depends on what you want in a guy. Thompson is a fantastic complimentary piece. Maybe that is just because of his role is GS but it seems like if he is your go to piece, you're in trouble. Klay makes Kobe look like Stockton out there. Giving him the ball and saying go isn't going to end well for the other 4 guys standing around watching. And a complete lack of rebounding. Not a big deal for his position but he was damn near the worst as his position.

Lance is going to give you a bit of everything with a big crazy cherry on top.

Derozan lives at the line, has improved his passing and 3 point shooting every season but is a horrific defender and his bread and butter is the worst shot in basketball.

Beal is kind of a poor man's Thompson at this point. Don't think he belongs in this group yet.

Matthew's is what he is at this point. Nice player but a tier below the guys listed.

Harden and George (he really is a 3 but whatever) are obviously a tier above these guys... well, if you value defence maybe not Harden

Tier 1: Harden, George

Tier 2: Thompson, Derozan, Lance, Hayward

Tier 3: Afflalo, Matthews, Beal

Then there is a group of guys like Ginobli, Wade, Crawford, Martin, Green, Gordon (I consider Dragic a PG) etc who could slot into those tiers depending on health and role. I'd take almost anyone of these guys on a smaller deal vs paying Thompson the max.

 

[Abraham]

Agreed. And outside of harden and George I don't think any of those guys can be the lead dog on a team the way Jordan, drexler, mcgrady were.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Agreed. And outside of harden and George I don't think any of those guys can be the lead dog on a team the way Jordan, drexler, mcgrady were.

Are you forgetting about Carter or purposely leaving him out?

 

[Abraham]

Forgot him.

 

[boubucarow]

If in fact Melo is wanting to be a Bull it will be interesting how much winning means to him. I don't hate on any player getting as much money as they can but his salary will be in immediate direct conflict with the talent on his team.

Taking from this article:

- The Bulls amnesty Boozer and have about $13M to give Melo.

- Draft a Euro who stays oversees and they have and additional $800K to give Melo.

- Trade Dunleavy for a pick and they have about $16M to give Melo.

- Trade Bulter for pick and they have about $17.7M to give Melo.

- To give Melo the max they have to move Gibson.

- If he demands the max there is no way they can bring Mirotic over (it seems unlikely if they do add Melo whatever the cost) and they loss their mid-level exceptions.

 

[pollardsvision]

Sg:

Harden

George if you think he's a 2

Beal

Afflalo on his current deal

Matthews on current deal

Derozan on current deal

Thompson on a Max deal

Lance getting paid.

Gets pretty thin after that.

It all depends on what you want in a guy. Thompson is a fantastic complimentary piece. Maybe that is just because of his role is GS but it seems like if he is your go to piece, you're in trouble. Klay makes Kobe look like Stockton out there. Giving him the ball and saying go isn't going to end well for the other 4 guys standing around watching. And a complete lack of rebounding. Not a big deal for his position but he was damn near the worst as his position.

Lance is going to give you a bit of everything with a big crazy cherry on top.

Derozan lives at the line, has improved his passing and 3 point shooting every season but is a horrific defender and his bread and butter is the worst shot in basketball.

Beal is kind of a poor man's Thompson at this point. Don't think he belongs in this group yet.

Matthew's is what he is at this point. Nice player but a tier below the guys listed.

Harden and George (he really is a 3 but whatever) are obviously a tier above these guys... well, if you value defence maybe not Harden

Tier 1: Harden, George

Tier 2: Thompson, Derozan, Lance, Hayward

Tier 3: Afflalo, Matthews, Beal

Then there is a group of guys like Ginobli, Wade, Crawford, Martin, Green, Gordon (I consider Dragic a PG) etc who could slot into those tiers depending on health and role. I'd take almost anyone of these guys on a smaller deal vs paying Thompson the max.

There's another guy that hasn't been mentioned at all that could make a real case for that SG#2 spot (not really, but nobody makes a great case).

He's getting old, but he's 6'8", hits 40% of his 3's, and led his team past DeRozan with a mildly ####ty supporting cast.

Incidentally, he's also the poster child for what's going to happen when a team gives Klay a near max contract because they can't get better FA's.

 

[Abraham]

Joe Johnson is a very good example as well. And you are right / an example of how a bad contract can cloud evaluation of a player.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

There's another guy that hasn't been mentioned at all that could make a real case for that SG#2 spot (not really, but nobody makes a great case).

He's getting old, but he's 6'8", hits 40% of his 3's, and led his team past DeRozan with a mildly ####ty supporting cast.

Incidentally, he's also the poster child for what's going to happen when a team gives Klay a near max contract because they can't get better FA's.

And he's an all-star!

He's definitely poking around there somewhere. He'll probably only have a season or two left being in the conversation but he's definitely in it.

His contract just makes me thing so low of him that I kind of left him out. And by that I don't mean thinking low of him as a 'person'. Just the value, or lack thereof, that he brings for it.

ETA: And #### did he abuse Derozan. Single handedly won them that series.

 

[mr fancypants]

Seems like the Warriors are calling out the Twolves. and not agreeing to any of their proposals. You gotta love Bob Myers backbone.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2014/06/20/snags-warriors-kevin-love-talks-dont-want-take-back-kevin-martin-dont-want-include-klay-thompson/

 

[Juxtatarot]

If in fact Melo is wanting to be a Bull it will be interesting how much winning means to him. I don't hate on any player getting as much money as they can but his salary will be in immediate direct conflict with the talent on his team.

Taking from this article:

- The Bulls amnesty Boozer and have about $13M to give Melo.

- Draft a Euro who stays oversees and they have and additional $800K to give Melo.

- Trade Dunleavy for a pick and they have about $16M to give Melo.

- Trade Bulter for pick and they have about $17.7M to give Melo.

- To give Melo the max they have to move Gibson.

- If he demands the max there is no way they can bring Mirotic over (it seems unlikely if they do add Melo whatever the cost) and they loss their mid-level exceptions.

This is why attempting a sign and trade with Boozer is so appealing. This opens up endless possibilities: Bulls taking back Felton or J.R. Smith, Bulls giving up Mirotic and/or picks for the Knicks to eat the Boozer contract (this would be a non-starter for most teams but maybe not Dolan and the Knicks), enticing a 3rd team in a 3-way to eat the Boozer contract (ala Utah-Golden State trade last year), etc.

 

[pollardsvision]

Seems like the Warriors are calling out the Twolves. and not agreeing to any of their proposals. You gotta love Bob Myers backbone.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2014/06/20/snags-warriors-kevin-love-talks-dont-want-take-back-kevin-martin-dont-want-include-klay-thompson/

If this is true, it's the Warriors that seem the most unreasonable

-The Warriors want it to be structured around Lee + Harrison Barnes for Love.

-And Minnesota wants it structured around Lee + Klay Thompson + other Warriors items for Love + Martin.

The key, of course, how good MIN's other offers are, but if GSW doesn't want to include Klay, there's absolutely no reason for MIN to even be at the table.

I don't think MIN can ask for the world for Love, but I'd stand strong here (on taking Martin). GSW has no real long-term assets to offer, outside of Klay (who will be open for bidding in 12 months). If they aren't getting picks, they can't basically just take money off GSW's hands for the players they don't need and can't pay if they have Love.

If GSW won't take Martin, I'd shop Love for the best compo of picks. Picks are cheap, controllable assets for many years.

 

[Abraham]

The 7 for klay Thompson is interesting. Doesn't seem to make sense for eityer la or gs.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Sources: Bulls pursuing trade for Magic's Arron AfflaloInteresting. If true, it must be a set up for another trade. What is Orlando's asking price? I'd assume it would be pretty high.

 

[pollardsvision]

I'd think the 16 would get it done.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Sources: Bulls pursuing trade for Magic's Arron Afflalo

Interesting. If true, it must be a set up for another trade. What is Orlando's asking price? I'd assume it would be pretty high.

Or the Magic want to free up minutes for drafting a 2/3. Can't see Afflalo fetching too much.

 

[5Rings]

Talk if Utah and Cavs swapping picks 5 and 1. Cleveland gets Favors and the 5, Utah gets the 1 and selects Parker.

I like that move for Cleveland.

The black Mormon has Utah drooling. I think a move like this is bound to happen.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Sources: Bulls pursuing trade for Magic's Arron Afflalo

Interesting. If true, it must be a set up for another trade. What is Orlando's asking price? I'd assume it would be pretty high.

Or the Magic want to free up minutes for drafting a 2/3. Can't see Afflalo fetching too much.

I guess the Bulls might offer Dunleavy, Snell and their non-guaranteed contracts (salary filler) and picks 16 and 19 for him. I'm sure Premier will come soon and quote this post with a :X . Of course, adding his salary complicates the Bulls hopes for Melo. Although I guess Afflalo could be dumped later if necessary. If they strike out in free agency, Afflalo would fill a need for the Bulls going forward.

 

[Abraham]

16 for afflalo seems low considering his contract is very reasonable.

 

[pollardsvision]

So, when Carmelo signs with CHI, how much more does that motivate LeBron to find a good spot instead of just staying loyal to Riley/Wade/Miami (or whatever the hell it is we all think is going to keep him there)?

 

[Premier]

I'd think the 16 would get it done.

Everything I've read has said they want a lottery pick, with interest from Charlotte, Denver and another team.

He's worth more than the 16 on his salary.

 

[Premier]

Sources: Bulls pursuing trade for Magic's Arron Afflalo

Interesting. If true, it must be a set up for another trade. What is Orlando's asking price? I'd assume it would be pretty high.

Or the Magic want to free up minutes for drafting a 2/3. Can't see Afflalo fetching too much.

I guess the Bulls might offer Dunleavy, Snell and their non-guaranteed contracts (salary filler) and picks 16 and 19 for him. I'm sure Premier will come soon and quote this post with a :X . Of course, adding his salary complicates the Bulls hopes for Melo. Although I guess Afflalo could be dumped later if necessary. If they strike out in free agency, Afflalo would fill a need for the Bulls going forward.

It is a pretty crappy offer and the Magic don't need 4 rookies.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

The 7 for klay Thompson is interesting. Doesn't seem to make sense for eityer la or gs.

Lakers need everything but a broken down 36 year old taking up 40% of the salary cap.

 

[Abraham]

They also don't need a 30 year old shooting guard whose best teammates are in their early twenties.

 

[pollardsvision]

I'd think the 16 would get it done.

Everything I've read has said they want a lottery pick, with interest from Charlotte, Denver and another team.

He's worth more than the 16 on his salary.

I don't disagree.

That contract is a double-egded sword though. It's almost certainly a one-year rental. Trading a lottery pick for Afflalo is a terrible long-term move for a team that needs more young talent (that includes probably 20 teams, and almost all the one's that indeed have lottery picks).

Charlotte is one of the few teams that have a lottery pick, and would be interested in doing it. I'd lose my #### if they did though.

They probably won't draft a better player than Afflalo at 9, but the chance to get a good one that they can control for the better part of a decade is too enticing to trade it for a year of Afflalo.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Sources: Bulls pursuing trade for Magic's Arron Afflalo

Interesting. If true, it must be a set up for another trade. What is Orlando's asking price? I'd assume it would be pretty high.

Or the Magic want to free up minutes for drafting a 2/3. Can't see Afflalo fetching too much.

I guess the Bulls might offer Dunleavy, Snell and their non-guaranteed contracts (salary filler) and picks 16 and 19 for him. I'm sure Premier will come soon and quote this post with a :X . Of course, adding his salary complicates the Bulls hopes for Melo. Although I guess Afflalo could be dumped later if necessary. If they strike out in free agency, Afflalo would fill a need for the Bulls going forward.

It is a pretty crappy offer and the Magic don't need 4 rookies.

Then what does Orlando want from Chicago? It has to be their picks. Maybe Orlando would package them to move up or something.

 

[Abraham]

Jimmy butler.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

They can probably get a pick a couple spots higher, but 16 for Afflalo is reasonable. (Really what I'd expect the return to be)

Rebuilding teams (most of the lotto teams) aren't going to be interested in him in the final year of deal when they can have a younger player under team control for more years at a fraction of the cost.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Team like the Bulls are in a tough spot. If Melo falters in his 30's, the team would be in a world of hurt with the Rose & Melo's contract for many years. It would completely cripple them . Simply my opinion, they'd be better off with Afflalo and bringing Deng back (I don't imagine he'll get a huge deal of great length after Cleveland).

PG: Rose

SG: Afflalo

SF: Deng

PF: Taj

C: Noah

SG/SF Butler

And more importantly, keep open the possibility of Mirotic coming. Bulls need scoring (unquestionably), I just think their are better ways to do it (for the long term benefit of the team than Melo). I'd go for Love. If don't get him, work with Mirotic to bring him over ASAP.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Jimmy butler.

I'm not sure that makes sense for either team.

 

[tommyGunZ]

The 7 for klay Thompson is interesting. Doesn't seem to make sense for eityer la or gs.

Klay's about to get paid too, right?

Jimbo's plan is to build the team by spending $40M+ of the $65M cap on two shooting guards? Fail proof!

 

[tommyGunZ]

I'd think the 16 would get it done.

Everything I've read has said they want a lottery pick, with interest from Charlotte, Denver and another team.

He's worth more than the 16 on his salary.

Not in this draft. Orlando should take the 16 and package it to move into the top 7 and get Smart.

 

[pollardsvision]

The 7 for klay Thompson is interesting. Doesn't seem to make sense for eityer la or gs.

Klay's about to get paid too, right?

Jimbo's plan is to build the team by spending $40M+ of the $65M cap on two shooting guards? Fail proof!

It certainly wouldn't be the worst decision Jimbo's made.

And it would only be $40 mill for the 2 for one year, unless the Lakers really want to do right by Kobe and offer him another $50 mill when this extension runs out.

That would certainly show FA's how they take care of their own.

 

[Abraham]

Afflalo to Charlotte would be a nice move by the hornets.

 

[Premier]

I'd think the 16 would get it done.

Everything I've read has said they want a lottery pick, with interest from Charlotte, Denver and another team. He's worth more than the 16 on his salary.

Not in this draft. Orlando should take the 16 and package it to move into the top 7 and get Smart.

I would think in this draft, the 12 and Afflalo would get those crappy non-contenders who think they are (Charlotte, Lakers?) to think.

 

[Abraham]

12 and afflalo for MCW?

 

[tommyGunZ]

12 and afflalo for MCW?

Orlando would jump on that.

 

[pollardsvision]

Afflalo to Charlotte would be a nice move by the hornets.

I defended CHA playing for short-term success last off-season with the Al signing, but this would be a bridge too far.

CHA simply cannot give up lottery picks for something that's unlikely to have any long-term benefit. If Afflalo's good, he's a one year rental. If it's demonstrated that there was a reason an Afflalo-led team couldn't win 25 games in the worst Conference in NBA history, then it makes it an even worse trade.

CHA has to draft well and overpay flawed FA's.

They cannot give lottery picks for 29 YO rentals.

 

[pollardsvision]

Simmons/Jalen speculating on Elfrid Payton getting the small school PG late skyrocketing stock treatment and maybe going in the Top 10.

 

[Abraham]

Ford has him in the lottery as well.

 

[Britney Spears]

Where's the break even point? James is worth like 250M. What's another 15M? Why not just play for the absolute minimum and maximize the chance of winning titles.

I think that would be really cool to see. Probably the best way to catch Jordan.

Sure, maybe we can get one team where 3 superstars go play for like a million each. Then they can sign 3 other superstars to max contracts and that team go for the first perfect season. That would be awesome.

That would be pretty unwatchable. What's the point of sports if there is no competition?

But wouldn't it be cool to watch a guy or bunch of guys accept pay way below their market value so that they can stack their team and win a bunch of titles.

Was it cool to watch the Spurs & Heat this year?

 

[Juxtatarot]

Simmons/Jalen speculating on Elfrid Payton getting the small school PG late skyrocketing stock treatment and maybe going in the Top 10.

Did he suddenly learn how to shoot?

 

[Premier]

Afflalo to Charlotte would be a nice move by the hornets.

I defended CHA playing for short-term success last off-season with the Al signing, but this would be a bridge too far.CHA simply cannot give up lottery picks for something that's unlikely to have any long-term benefit. If Afflalo's good, he's a one year rental. If it's demonstrated that there was a reason an Afflalo-led team couldn't win 25 games in the worst Conference in NBA history, then it makes it an even worse trade.

CHA has to draft well and overpay flawed FA's.

They cannot give lottery picks for 29 YO rentals.

I agree fwiw. But Charlotte is by far the most oft-mentioned trade partner for AA.

 

[Britney Spears]

No I think I do. Watch:

You're literally trying to change the subject because I just made you look silly, which is making you look like even more of a ####### (figuratively speaking).

I'm ignoring your stupid attempt at a point because it was not worthy of discussion. I thought you were more astute than this.

If I were you I'd figuratively tuck my tail between my legs and back away, too.

Of course, because that's what guys like you do.

Huh? I'm still here.

You said you don't want to further explain or explore your hatred for the Spurs. That's your decision. Let me know if you change your mind.

I'm more interested in your fascination with ruthlessly defending horrible analogies. It's extremely strange. I'll be here to talk about that anytime you are ready.

Can we get this thread changed to the OFFICIAL ANALOGY thread so we can talk more about this?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

Simmons/Jalen speculating on Elfrid Payton getting the small school PG late skyrocketing stock treatment and maybe going in the Top 10.

Did he suddenly learn how to shoot?

You can learn to shoot.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

Simmons/Jalen speculating on Elfrid Payton getting the small school PG late skyrocketing stock treatment and maybe going in the Top 10.

Did he suddenly learn how to shoot?

Like his game, but that shot is horrible.

 

[jestertj]

It's either a big smokescreen or Saunders is serous about not rebuilding, which is stupid. His options are to burn it down and start over or take the Warriors trade and hope for like, a 7 seed at best. I hope they get it done before the draft with the Celtics or outside shot at the Cavs.

I have a hard time believing that they would trade Love without receiving some sort of decent first rounder this year. For the sake of Wolves fans everywhere, I hope they can pull off a trade next week prior to the draft. Love is worth more now than he will be at the deadline and they can receive more value in the next 6 days than they can at any point in the season.

For the sake of Wolves fans everywhere, if you move Love then you get whatever you can for Rubio and Pek too. No reason to pay those guys. You gotta blow it up.

If anyone really cared about Wolves fans they'd just make Taylor sell the team and send them to Seattle and pretend the Minnesota Timberwolves never happened.

 

[thecatch]

It's either a big smokescreen or Saunders is serous about not rebuilding, which is stupid. His options are to burn it down and start over or take the Warriors trade and hope for like, a 7 seed at best. I hope they get it done before the draft with the Celtics or outside shot at the Cavs.

I have a hard time believing that they would trade Love without receiving some sort of decent first rounder this year. For the sake of Wolves fans everywhere, I hope they can pull off a trade next week prior to the draft. Love is worth more now than he will be at the deadline and they can receive more value in the next 6 days than they can at any point in the season.

For the sake of Wolves fans everywhere, if you move Love then you get whatever you can for Rubio and Pek too. No reason to pay those guys. You gotta blow it up.

Why? You have to pay somebody and those two guys could be nice pieces.

 

[jestertj]

It's either a big smokescreen or Saunders is serous about not rebuilding, which is stupid. His options are to burn it down and start over or take the Warriors trade and hope for like, a 7 seed at best. I hope they get it done before the draft with the Celtics or outside shot at the Cavs.

I have a hard time believing that they would trade Love without receiving some sort of decent first rounder this year. For the sake of Wolves fans everywhere, I hope they can pull off a trade next week prior to the draft. Love is worth more now than he will be at the deadline and they can receive more value in the next 6 days than they can at any point in the season.

For the sake of Wolves fans everywhere, if you move Love then you get whatever you can for Rubio and Pek too. No reason to pay those guys. You gotta blow it up.

Why? You have to pay somebody and those two guys could be nice pieces.

Nice peices of what, a team that continually fails and will never be able to atttract any free agents because nobody wants to come to MN? Neither Rubio nor Pek is a star. The only way the Wolves can EVER get a star is through the draft process. Need picks, not pieces.