*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (4 Viewers)

[Peyton Marino]

It will never compete with NYC, Miami, or San Diego, but there are definitely argument for why it's better than cities like Philly, Chicago, Boston and even LA IMO.

what arguments are those? sounds like something a lunatic would say.

Philly is awful. Dirty, rude people, lots of violence, poor economy. That one is easy.

Chicago has sky high violence in a lot of areas right now. The cost of living is also much higher. But Chicago is overall probably going to win out most of the time.

If you're not white and Catholic, then Cleveland over Boston is a pretty easy choice even before factoring n cost of living.

LA has horrible traffic, sky high cost of living, horrible air quality, droughts, wildfires, earthquakes and is really hot part of the year.

Obviously there are some major things that all those cities have that a lot of people would prefer over what Cleveland has to offer. But there are some things that make Cleveland attractive to some people. Low cost of living, overall friendly people, nice restaurant scene, nice area developing around the lake, world class orchestra, easy commute times, more relaxed lifestyle, etc.

I feel like any argument Cleveland has in ranking it over another city has to do with why that other city sucks rather than why Cleveland is good.

 

[GroveDiesel]

And again, anyone comparing the Cleveland of 5+ years ago to other cities hasn't spent time in axle eland lately. It's vastly improved in the last 2-3 years and is really on the upswing.

 

[Spartans Rule]

Anyway, LeBron is still just 29. He'll be 31-33 when Wiggins is 22-24. Plenty of overlap.

Not that it changes your point much, but LeBron turns 30 before Wiggins turns 20.

 

[B-Deep]

nice thing about having someone else to do the heavy lifting on D is that lebron can focus all his energies on the O. That was quite some double duty he had to perform in Miami.

WHERE WAS THIS HEAVY LIFTING AGAINST DALLAS? OR THE CLANK OFF THE RIM, REBOUND BY BOSH, MIRACLE 3 BY ALLEN GAME 6?! HE'S NO MJ! #hedgingincaseheleaves

The man is human. And I thought the heaters didn't think that was a miracle 3? Had a big debate about that early in the finals this year before the spurs ran away with it. You guys need to get together at todem's place and working on delivering a consistent message.

If you haven't read what i've been posting for...like 4 years...i'm joking. I've defended the guy forever. Just schtick today bud. I'd never actually believe or seriously suggest what I posted. All in fun.

I know. Just kidding myself. The tension is high these days.

Actually not for me.

Gent's I just got back from playing a beautiful round of golf this morning at my club, had an ice cold Corona with a great Chicago burger and some coney fries.

So just waiting for them to announce all three are coming back, the contract details, etc etc etc. And..if what I think won't happen does happen? I will wake up again tomorrow, have some breakfast, go to the office, come home, hang with my son and wife, go out to dinner and see Dawn of The Planet of the Apes at 7PM.

Life will go on. Nothing will change. Except our team will be a train wreck for a few years. But like I have always said from the start:

IN RILEY WE TRUST.

This is a done deal. Sorry Cleveland your being hoodwinked by your front office, the media and owner. It's cruel. But of core the blame will go right to Lebron.

If I am wrong….. I will take it like a man here gentlemen. Just have the courtesy to lube it up a little. LOL. Please go gentle on me. I will have no one in the arena with me next season.

If they are being hoodwinked Lebron is at fault.

His agent could have reined this talk in long ago, and has not. That's on 'Bron. He cannot sit back and let his gaent help whip this into a frenzy and just say "wasn't me". I mean he can, but he'll look like an ###, again.

 

[MAC_32]

And again, anyone comparing the Cleveland of 5+ years ago to other cities hasn't spent time in axle eland lately. It's vastly improved in the last 2-3 years and is really on the upswing.

This is why I tossed that comment into the fire in the first place. Moved here 8 years ago, wasn't too impressed with what was offered. That perception has changed a lot over the last few years.

 

[tommyGunZ]

And again, anyone comparing the Cleveland of 5+ years ago to other cities hasn't spent time in axle eland lately. It's vastly improved in the last 2-3 years and is really on the upswing.

This is why I tossed that comment into the fire in the first place. Moved here 8 years ago, wasn't too impressed with what was offered. That perception has changed a lot over the last few years.

You living there probably has a lot to do with that perception.

 

[B-Deep]

And again, anyone comparing the Cleveland of 5+ years ago to other cities hasn't spent time in axle eland lately. It's vastly improved in the last 2-3 years and is really on the upswing.

This is why I tossed that comment into the fire in the first place. Moved here 8 years ago, wasn't too impressed with what was offered. That perception has changed a lot over the last few years.

Stockholm syndrome, imo

 

[Sinn Fein]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

 

[TobiasFunke]

Anyway, LeBron is still just 29. He'll be 31-33 when Wiggins is 22-24. Plenty of overlap.

Not that it changes your point much, but LeBron turns 30 before Wiggins turns 20.

Fair enough.

The reason you don't see 20 and 21 year olds make significant contributions to deep playoffs runs very often is partially because the best 20 and 21 year olds usually end up on teams that are quite a ways away from being able to make a deep playoff run. When young guys end up in the right circumstance because they dropped too far in the draft (Leonard in 2013, Paul George in 2012) or because their conference goes to hell (Beal in 2014) they can contribute quite a bit. Maybe not lead the way, but this all assumes LeBron is in Cleveland.

 

[Freelove]

It will never compete with NYC, Miami, or San Diego, but there are definitely argument for why it's better than cities like Philly, Chicago, Boston and even LA IMO.

what arguments are those? sounds like something a lunatic would say.

Philly is awful. Dirty, rude people, lots of violence, poor economy. That one is easy.

Chicago has sky high violence in a lot of areas right now. The cost of living is also much higher. But Chicago is overall probably going to win out most of the time.

If you're not white and Catholic, then Cleveland over Boston is a pretty easy choice even before factoring n cost of living.

LA has horrible traffic, sky high cost of living, horrible air quality, droughts, wildfires, earthquakes and is really hot part of the year.

Obviously there are some major things that all those cities have that a lot of people would prefer over what Cleveland has to offer. But there are some things that make Cleveland attractive to some people. Low cost of living, overall friendly people, nice restaurant scene, nice area developing around the lake, world class orchestra, easy commute times, more relaxed lifestyle, etc.

I feel like any argument Cleveland has in ranking it over another city has to do with why that other city sucks rather than why Cleveland is good.

Cleveland's okay.

It's got that old-school Euro-style independent neighborhood culture you mostly find in mid-sized rust belt cities. It's got great architecture and lots of leafy, shady tree-lined streets. It's got a great foodie culture. It's got world-recognized cultural arts -- an artifact of the Rockefeller legacy. It's got a great -- if spectacularly unsuccessful in recent eras -- sports culture. The infrastructure isn't the pits of the world and the urban planning was pretty well executed in the most vital areas.

It's got some rundown hellhole-ish spots, is still recovering economically (though it's doing so successfully, if slowly), and could still stand to clean up its crime a good bit. But it's far from the pits of the universe any more.

I give it a B-.

 

[Freelove]

Although I actually like Milwaukee better, so not sure what that says about me.

 

[MAC_32]

It will never compete with NYC, Miami, or San Diego, but there are definitely argument for why it's better than cities like Philly, Chicago, Boston and even LA IMO.

what arguments are those? sounds like something a lunatic would say.

Philly is awful. Dirty, rude people, lots of violence, poor economy. That one is easy.

Chicago has sky high violence in a lot of areas right now. The cost of living is also much higher. But Chicago is overall probably going to win out most of the time.

If you're not white and Catholic, then Cleveland over Boston is a pretty easy choice even before factoring n cost of living.

LA has horrible traffic, sky high cost of living, horrible air quality, droughts, wildfires, earthquakes and is really hot part of the year.

Obviously there are some major things that all those cities have that a lot of people would prefer over what Cleveland has to offer. But there are some things that make Cleveland attractive to some people. Low cost of living, overall friendly people, nice restaurant scene, nice area developing around the lake, world class orchestra, easy commute times, more relaxed lifestyle, etc.

I feel like any argument Cleveland has in ranking it over another city has to do with why that other city sucks rather than why Cleveland is good.

Cleveland's okay.

It's got that old-school Euro-style independent neighborhood culture you mostly find in mid-sized rust belt cities. It's got great architecture and lots of leafy, shady tree-lined streets. It's got a great foodie culture. It's got world-recognized cultural arts -- an artifact of the Rockefeller legacy. It's got a great -- if spectacularly unsuccessful in recent eras -- sports culture. The infrastructure isn't the pits of the world and the urban planning was pretty well executed in the most vital areas.

It's got some rundown hellhole-ish spots, is still recovering economically (though it's doing so successfully, if slowly), and could still stand to clean up its crime a good bit. But it's far from the pits of the universe any more.

I give it a B-.

Stay out of East Cleveland + make fun of everyone from Parma and you'll be fine

 

[Spanky24]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

Excellent posting.

He will go back to Cleveland becasue they will have a better team in the future.

Jumping ship again is why I'm not a fan of James personally.

 

[B-Deep]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

as far as i am concerned "the decision" was the only bad part about what he did the first time.

I have no issues with him teaming up with Bosh and Wade, that's just smart.

 

[Village Idiot]

nice thing about having someone else to do the heavy lifting on D is that lebron can focus all his energies on the O. That was quite some double duty he had to perform in Miami.

WHERE WAS THIS HEAVY LIFTING AGAINST DALLAS? OR THE CLANK OFF THE RIM, REBOUND BY BOSH, MIRACLE 3 BY ALLEN GAME 6?! HE'S NO MJ! #hedgingincaseheleaves

The man is human. And I thought the heaters didn't think that was a miracle 3? Had a big debate about that early in the finals this year before the spurs ran away with it. You guys need to get together at todem's place and working on delivering a consistent message.

If you haven't read what i've been posting for...like 4 years...i'm joking. I've defended the guy forever. Just schtick today bud. I'd never actually believe or seriously suggest what I posted. All in fun.

I know. Just kidding myself. The tension is high these days.

Actually not for me.

Gent's I just got back from playing a beautiful round of golf this morning at my club, had an ice cold Corona with a great Chicago burger and some coney fries.

So just waiting for them to announce all three are coming back, the contract details, etc etc etc. And..if what I think won't happen does happen? I will wake up again tomorrow, have some breakfast, go to the office, come home, hang with my son and wife, go out to dinner and see Dawn of The Planet of the Apes at 7PM.

Life will go on. Nothing will change. Except our team will be a train wreck for a few years. But like I have always said from the start:

IN RILEY WE TRUST.

This is a done deal. Sorry Cleveland your being hoodwinked by your front office, the media and owner. It's cruel. But of core the blame will go right to Lebron.

If I am wrong….. I will take it like a man here gentlemen. Just have the courtesy to lube it up a little. LOL. Please go gentle on me. I will have no one in the arena with me next season.

Good attitude, but sorry Miami it's going to be Lebron to Cleveland and Cleveland has a deal in place to trade for Love contingent on LeBron coming to Cleveland.

Riley has reloaded before and has seemed to find a way to do it in Miami.

Rebuilding is fun! (OK it's not sorry).

If LeBron doesn't choose Cleveland oh well it really doesn't change my life in any significant way.

 

[Freelove]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

Excellent posting.

He will go back to Cleveland becasue they will have a better team in the future.

Jumping ship again is why I'm not a fan of James personally.

As an outsider looking in, all I can say is that it's a lot less hideous if he goes back to CLE than it would be if he bailed and went anywhere else. I also don't think jumping ship and going home looks any uglier to most fans than staying put in his current mercenary position, anyway. It's too late to do everything in his career in a palatable way, but I think going to CLE and giving it a go is maybe the most palatable move he could make.

 

[Spartans Rule]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?

I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

They wouldn't need 26 and 13 from Love, but a PF who can shoot like him would be an awesome match offensively with LeBron.

 

[timschochet]

Thanks for the info, Todom. $2400 for a ticket that cost me $150? I'd be forced to sell them all. Just too much cash not to.

 

[MAC_32]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

as far as i am concerned "the decision" was the only bad part about what he did the first time.

I have no issues with him teaming up with Bosh and Wade, that's just smart.

Everything he did in the 3 years leading up to the decision was a problem too.

 

[metoo]

I give the Lakers a hard time because of Jim Buss but anyone saying Cleveland is a better city is crazy.

 

[Freelove]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?

I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

They wouldn't need 26 and 13 from Love, but a PF who can shoot like him would be an awesome match offensively with LeBron.

I absolutely agree, but you don't pay max just for his ability to shoot, especially when it comes with glaring defensive deficiencies. You either need and make use of all the awesome things he CAN bring, or you go a different route.

I think a Lebron-centered team would be successful either way, of course. Just not sure K-Love is the smartest way to get there in a bang-for-the-buck sense.

 

[Freelove]

I give the Lakers a hard time because of Jim Buss but anyone saying Cleveland is a better city is crazy.

Anyone saying it objectively offers more is crazy. Anyone saying it's better probably just likes things about midsized northern cities more than Southern California cities. This isn't madness; it's preference.

 

[TobiasFunke]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

It wasn't bad when he left either IMO, but in this case it's one guy joining a team that's already in place rather than 3 superstar free agents deciding to all play for the same team. People seem to think that's better somehow. Also people seem to love the idea of free agents going to play for their home towns (PAY ATTENTION KEVIN DURANT). And there's something particularly appealing if he can bring a title to a city that hasn't won one in any sports for over 60 years.

 

[B-Deep]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

as far as i am concerned "the decision" was the only bad part about what he did the first time.

I have no issues with him teaming up with Bosh and Wade, that's just smart.

Everything he did in the 3 years leading up to the decision was a problem too.

Get an average team into the playoffs?

 

[Paulymaggs]

Why haven't my main man Eminence chimed in here yet?

I think it's awfully peculiar that none of Bosh, James, or Anthony have signed yet. Eerily similar to when Wade, Bosh, and James hadn't signed anywhere. Couple that with how horrible Dwayne Wade looked in the Finals.

I don't see a way two of the big three don't end up on the same team. Who wouldn't want to ride LeBron to 2 - 3 more rings?

This feels like a rotoworld blurb.

 

[Village Idiot]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

It wasn't bad when he left either IMO, but in this case it's one guy joining a team that's already in place rather than 3 superstar free agents deciding to all play for the same team. People seem to think that's better somehow. Also people seem to love the idea of free agents going to play for their home towns (PAY ATTENTION KEVIN DURANT). And there's something particularly appealing if he can bring a title to a city that hasn't won one in any sports for over 60 years.

1964 Browns, 50 years. Still but

 

[TobiasFunke]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

as far as i am concerned "the decision" was the only bad part about what he did the first time.

I have no issues with him teaming up with Bosh and Wade, that's just smart.

Everything he did in the 3 years leading up to the decision was a problem too.

Get an average team into the playoffs?

Maybe he's talking about how LeBron was always getting into legal trouble, and and treating people horribly, and doing sleazy stuff that always landed him in the gossip mags, and not giving anything to charity.

 

[Sebowski]

btw, Cleveland > Miami

San Diego kind of sucks as a city too honestly

Stop trying to out-stupid the Clev folks Rude.

the beaches are great and all and it's certainly not a bad place to live. just not much character to the city itself imo. feels suburban.

I still like it there and all.

 

[Don Quixote]

Nate Silver analysis

He gives the Cavs 52.4 wins with LeBron, and the Heat 51.6 wins if they bring back their three.

 

[NutterButter]

Nate Silver analysis

He gives the Cavs 52.4 wins with LeBron, and the Heat 51.6 wins if they bring back their three.

Its official. The Cavs with LeBron are better than the Heat with LeBron. Prediction: Todem calls Nate Silver an idiot.

 

[Sebowski]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

as far as i am concerned "the decision" was the only bad part about what he did the first time.

I have no issues with him teaming up with Bosh and Wade, that's just smart.

Everything he did in the 3 years leading up to the decision was a problem too.

And after. The most annoying thing Lebron did was that stupid big 3 intro deal when he said the "not 6, not 7, not 2… Ok, actually 2 works better for me. Then I'm out here. Deal, guys?"

 

[Sinn Fein]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

as far as i am concerned "the decision" was the only bad part about what he did the first time.

I have no issues with him teaming up with Bosh and Wade, that's just smart.

Yeah, I don't either - I don't follow the NBA that closely, but I like James. And, at the end of the day, it does not really matter, but I would think in the never-ending debate of GOAT, he will fall short based on his decisions to change teams.

 

[pollardsvision]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

Excellent posting.He will go back to Cleveland becasue they will have a better team in the future.

Jumping ship again is why I'm not a fan of James personally.

He plays in a league that puts a cap on his salary, and pretty much requires top players to take even less than that in order to win. You can't keep a great team together paying everybody what they are worth. It's also a league where players essentially have no choice where they play for their 1st 7 seasons of their career. For most guys, that's about half of their "championship prime".

Given all the factors involved, I don't see how fans could begrudge a player for seeking the best situation they can.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Nate Silver analysis

He gives the Cavs 52.4 wins with LeBron, and the Heat 51.6 wins if they bring back their three.

Its official. The Cavs with LeBron are better than the Heat with LeBron. Prediction: Todem calls Nate Silver an idiot.

Not exactly sure how they compute net points per 100 possessions but it seems to either not look at defense at all or wildly undervalue it. There is no possible chance that Kyrie Irving is significantly more valuable than Dwight Howard or Chris Bosh.

 

[sporthenry]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.

Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?

I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

They wouldn't need 26 and 13 from Love, but a PF who can shoot like him would be an awesome match offensively with LeBron.

I absolutely agree, but you don't pay max just for his ability to shoot, especially when it comes with glaring defensive deficiencies. You either need and make use of all the awesome things he CAN bring, or you go a different route.

I think a Lebron-centered team would be successful either way, of course. Just not sure K-Love is the smartest way to get there in a bang-for-the-buck sense.

Well I don't think you are ignoring the rest of his package but LeBron seems most effective with shooters around him so that is one big plus. Love will still be an elite rebounder and can get their fast break going very quickly. I guess the downside is that Love's passing is one of his best attributes and with Kyrie and especially LeBron, not sure how much he'd get the ball and Varejao is a pretty good rebounder himself.

Either way, they're gonna be up against the cap so it isn't like Love handicaps them that much more once we see what is going the other way. And does Wiggins even do enough on the defensive side to start or play the meaningful minutes in the end? I guess they save Waiters to score in the 2nd unit but assuming they bring in LeBron's AARP entourage, where do they go? I guess defense will be a premium with Kyrie, Waiters, Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Anthony Bennett, etc. and Love might not help much in that category.

 

[Village Idiot]

Nate Silver analysis

He gives the Cavs 52.4 wins with LeBron, and the Heat 51.6 wins if they bring back their three.

Its official. The Cavs with LeBron are better than the Heat with LeBron. Prediction: Todem calls Nate Silver an idiot.

I'm predicting this drives the Todem confidence level to 100.99999%.

 

[Frostillicus]

Here's your smoking gun for Lebron to the Cavs.

 

[thecatch]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

They wouldn't need 26 and 13 from Love, but a PF who can shoot like him would be an awesome match offensively with LeBron.

I absolutely agree, but you don't pay max just for his ability to shoot, especially when it comes with glaring defensive deficiencies. You either need and make use of all the awesome things he CAN bring, or you go a different route.I think a Lebron-centered team would be successful either way, of course. Just not sure K-Love is the smartest way to get there in a bang-for-the-buck sense.

Well I don't think you are ignoring the rest of his package but LeBron seems most effective with shooters around him so that is one big plus. Love will still be an elite rebounder and can get their fast break going very quickly. I guess the downside is that Love's passing is one of his best attributes and with Kyrie and especially LeBron, not sure how much he'd get the ball and Varejao is a pretty good rebounder himself. Either way, they're gonna be up against the cap so it isn't like Love handicaps them that much more once we see what is going the other way. And does Wiggins even do enough on the defensive side to start or play the meaningful minutes in the end? I guess they save Waiters to score in the 2nd unit but assuming they bring in LeBron's AARP entourage, where do they go? I guess defense will be a premium with Kyrie, Waiters, Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Anthony Bennett, etc. and Love might not help much in that category.

I think I'd try to find a cheaper stretch 4 and then use that savings to buy low on a rim protector like Larry Sanders, if I were running the Cavs. Love would be devastating playing next to Lebron, of course, but then they will have 0 interior defense other than what Lebron gives them. Plus they probably wouldn't have to give up Wiggins.

 

[NutterButter]

Nate Silver analysis

He gives the Cavs 52.4 wins with LeBron, and the Heat 51.6 wins if they bring back their three.

Its official. The Cavs with LeBron are better than the Heat with LeBron. Prediction: Todem calls Nate Silver an idiot.

Not exactly sure how they compute net points per 100 possessions but it seems to either not look at defense at all or wildly undervalue it. There is no possible chance that Kyrie Irving is significantly more valuable than Dwight Howard or Chris Bosh.

Is 1 more point per 100 possessions considered significantly more valuable? His PER is right behind Howard and in front of Bosh. Its interesting that he has McRoberts more valuable than Bosh.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Nate Silver analysis

He gives the Cavs 52.4 wins with LeBron, and the Heat 51.6 wins if they bring back their three.

Its official. The Cavs with LeBron are better than the Heat with LeBron. Prediction: Todem calls Nate Silver an idiot.

Not exactly sure how they compute net points per 100 possessions but it seems to either not look at defense at all or wildly undervalue it. There is no possible chance that Kyrie Irving is significantly more valuable than Dwight Howard or Chris Bosh.

Is 1 more point per 100 possessions considered significantly more valuable? His PER is right behind Howard and in front of Bosh. Its interesting that he has McRoberts more valuable than Bosh.

I guess I was looking at the allocated wins, which I assumed were derived from the net points but apparently not. Irving's at 12.0, Howard 8.6, Bosh 7.1.

Defense is hard to quantify, but Irving is generally considered a mediocre to poor defender, while Howard and Bosh are both plus-plus defenders.. Everyone knows about Howard but the nerds rave about Bosh. I believe Zach Lowe said he's the most effective PnR defender in the game.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Here's your smoking gun for Lebron to the Cavs.

Cascading style sheets never lie

 

[MAC_32]

If Lebron goes back to Cleveland now, isn't that just as bad as when he left?

I am a fan, so it does not really matter to me, but it does strike me as whoring himself to the best situation out as much now, as it was when he took his talents to South Beach. (Again, I am fine with it - he's earned free agency - but it does seem to diminish the legacy a little bit...)

as far as i am concerned "the decision" was the only bad part about what he did the first time.

I have no issues with him teaming up with Bosh and Wade, that's just smart.

Everything he did in the 3 years leading up to the decision was a problem too.

Get an average team into the playoffs?

Let me know once you step out of your vacuum.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

PHIL TREXLER-ABJ ‏@PhilTrexler 55m

Folks in Bath feel strongly that LBJ will sign w/ CLE. LBJ's camp contacted cops hour ago to alert them of tonight's annoucement. #kingjames

PhilTrexler: @MrsLevy1 @RuiterWrongFAN Cops expecting a celebration on LBJ's street tonight and not the anger of 2010. #kingjames

 

[pollardsvision]

I won't believe it until I hear it from Ph11 Trex1er.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I hope Miami fans are classier tonight.

 

[Village Idiot]

I really think people are underestimating the Wiggins factor here. A year ago everyone was drooling over him. If you'd said last year he'd be going to the Cavs with Irving people would have said that was already a solid foundation for a contender in 3-4 seasons. I don't think his one year at Kansas should change that much, it wasn't a Harrison Barnes situation where it quickly becomes clear he has a lower ceiling than people thought. He looked pretty amazing at times.

Agree with this 100%. If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, the Cavs could be in for a DOMINANT run. NBA players are aware of how good Kyrie is - he's banging on the door of the elite club.Imagine if Bennett is actually in shape and shows that last year was just a bad fluke. And the Cavs have Miami's first rounder next year?

Go home LeBron.

If Wiggins becomes the superstar he can be, he'll do it about the time LeBron starts to decline. I wouldn't feel great about trying to contend with a 20-year-old as a key player.

If they can trade him for Love it would give them a much more solid window.

I dunno. Isn't that kind of every franchise's wet dream? One elite superstar, one second-tier star second banana, and a young guy the perfect age to pass the torch to if all goes well?I mean, it only works out if it adds up to enough to eke out a title or two (or whatever). I'm not sure if I'm a Cleveland fan, that I'd be slam-dunk in support of moving the kid, even for Love.

As a fan of the game, I guess I'd like Love there better. The team defense would be atrocious, but Love's penchant for giving up on D assignments to rebound and outlet would be phenomenal to watch with Kyrie and Bron, and having three superstar scorers plus no defense might make them play a pretty exciting brand of Loyola-Marymount ball in order to win games.

But I'm not sure that team would be desperate for another 20+ scorer, and I'm not sure they'd be desperate for a rebounder, but they'd sure as hell miss Wiggins's D if it's anywhere near what it's advertised as. Love's by far the better all around player, for now at least, but I'm not sure he's a better match for what they'd need to contend. (ETA: not that it would necessarily matter how perfect a match Love would be, since James, plus Kyrie, plus Love would almost certainly be overwhelming enough to win titles even if it wasn't a perfectly constructed team concept.)

They wouldn't need 26 and 13 from Love, but a PF who can shoot like him would be an awesome match offensively with LeBron.

I absolutely agree, but you don't pay max just for his ability to shoot, especially when it comes with glaring defensive deficiencies. You either need and make use of all the awesome things he CAN bring, or you go a different route.I think a Lebron-centered team would be successful either way, of course. Just not sure K-Love is the smartest way to get there in a bang-for-the-buck sense.

Well I don't think you are ignoring the rest of his package but LeBron seems most effective with shooters around him so that is one big plus. Love will still be an elite rebounder and can get their fast break going very quickly. I guess the downside is that Love's passing is one of his best attributes and with Kyrie and especially LeBron, not sure how much he'd get the ball and Varejao is a pretty good rebounder himself. Either way, they're gonna be up against the cap so it isn't like Love handicaps them that much more once we see what is going the other way. And does Wiggins even do enough on the defensive side to start or play the meaningful minutes in the end? I guess they save Waiters to score in the 2nd unit but assuming they bring in LeBron's AARP entourage, where do they go? I guess defense will be a premium with Kyrie, Waiters, Ray Allen, Mike Miller, Anthony Bennett, etc. and Love might not help much in that category.

I think I'd try to find a cheaper stretch 4 and then use that savings to buy low on a rim protector like Larry Sanders, if I were running the Cavs. Love would be devastating playing next to Lebron, of course, but then they will have 0 interior defense other than what Lebron gives them. Plus they probably wouldn't have to give up Wiggins.

Any idea who is still out there as a stretch 4?

Although trading anything less than Wiggins is an option too I suppose.

I like this concept.

 

[Village Idiot]

PHIL TREXLER-ABJ ‏@PhilTrexler 55m

Folks in Bath feel strongly that LBJ will sign w/ CLE. LBJ's camp contacted cops hour ago to alert them of tonight's annoucement. #kingjames

PhilTrexler: @MrsLevy1 @RuiterWrongFAN Cops expecting a celebration on LBJ's street tonight and not the anger of 2010. #kingjames

You could take that 1st one and interpret it as he wants cops to protect his house because he is announcing he is staying in Miami.

Hopefully not.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Any idea who is still out there as a stretch 4?

Although trading anything less than Wiggins is an option too I suppose.

I like this concept.

Charlie V

Red Rocket

Jamison

Mullens

Tolliver

 

[Premier]

I can't believe Parsons is considering leaving the Houston family.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I hope Miami fans are classier tonight.

On the plus side, there will be fewer Miami fans tomorrow than there yesterday...