Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Love isn't even close to being the best player to hit the trade market. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain and Charles Barkley were all traded.
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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff Clavin
- Start date
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Abraham
Footballguy
pollardsvision
Footballguy
I've been warning folks since they were all ugly-crying tears of joy onto their tablets reading that letter.JB Breakfast Club said:
Synthesizer
Footballguy
Do you really think this Cavs team has only about a 5% chance of winning it all?Mister CIA said:
JB Breakfast Club
Footballguy
Pelton mainly looks at modern players since that's when the stats are more complete (he's an analytics writer for those who don't know). His article basically considers if Love is the best player to be available for an open trade since Jabbar. Although, using straight Win Shares, only Wilt (20.4 and 15.1 WS before trades) rated better than Love (14.3 WS) in the year before being traded in NBA history.Snotbubbles said:
Barkley holds the modern record for WARP when traded (18.8). He was 29 years old when he was dealt, right in the peak for NBA players.
Love's WARP last season was 20.3. Love is 25 years old, so he still has potential to improve into his peak years. Considering age, history, and similarity scores, Love projects to be a top 5 player in the NBA over the next three years (Durant, ADavis, LeBron, Paul, Love).
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Oh for sure. And a few people have done that. I can see wanting a second wing defender, more depth and the overall potential upside of Wiggins.Moe. said:
I think they're wrong and I've said before I'd much rather have Love just re-sign, but he's leaving for greener (literally) pastures and I can't blame him.
I have a love/hate relationship with the posts where people clearly know nothing and post things as fact when I would bet they've never watched the players in question.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Wilt Chamberlain. He got traded after averaging 24 points (4th in league), 23 rebounds (1st in league) and 8 assists (2nd in league). He also led the league in minutes played and FG% in 1967-68.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/25/report-bulls-promised-not-to-trade-nikola-mirotic/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
David Haugh of the Chicago Tribune:
Mirotic bought out his contract with Real Madrid of the Spanish League only after the Bulls committed to keeping him in Chicago, according to a source familiar with negotiations.
Sometimes, conditions of such agreements – “We won’t trade you unless…” – get lost in the game of telephone from management to the player to the media, and there could be other people in the chain between those links. The miscommunication possibility is even more likely with someone like Mirotic, who admits his English is not good. (How is Gar Foreman’s Montenegrin?)
However, for the sake of this post, let’s assume the Bulls expressly promised Mirotic they’d keep him in Chicago.
Since signing Mirotic, they’ve added Pau Gasol, another big man who will eat up minutes. It seems possible the Bulls and Mirotic could have mutually agreed to lift the trade embargo, even if him remaining in Chicago remains the preferred option.
Of course, these concerns are purely ethical rather than technical. Mirotic doesn’t have a no-trade clause, and from Aug. 17 on, the Bulls can unilaterally trade him. That’s just a pitfall of playing in the NBA, which doesn’t allow no-trade clauses unless a player has spent eight years in the league and four with the team signing him.
But if the Bulls promised not to trade Mirotic for a period of time, they should honor that.
And if they can get Love, they should try their hardest to talk Mirotic into the beauty of Minnesota.
David Haugh of the Chicago Tribune:
Mirotic bought out his contract with Real Madrid of the Spanish League only after the Bulls committed to keeping him in Chicago, according to a source familiar with negotiations.
Sometimes, conditions of such agreements – “We won’t trade you unless…” – get lost in the game of telephone from management to the player to the media, and there could be other people in the chain between those links. The miscommunication possibility is even more likely with someone like Mirotic, who admits his English is not good. (How is Gar Foreman’s Montenegrin?)
However, for the sake of this post, let’s assume the Bulls expressly promised Mirotic they’d keep him in Chicago.
Since signing Mirotic, they’ve added Pau Gasol, another big man who will eat up minutes. It seems possible the Bulls and Mirotic could have mutually agreed to lift the trade embargo, even if him remaining in Chicago remains the preferred option.
Of course, these concerns are purely ethical rather than technical. Mirotic doesn’t have a no-trade clause, and from Aug. 17 on, the Bulls can unilaterally trade him. That’s just a pitfall of playing in the NBA, which doesn’t allow no-trade clauses unless a player has spent eight years in the league and four with the team signing him.
But if the Bulls promised not to trade Mirotic for a period of time, they should honor that.
And if they can get Love, they should try their hardest to talk Mirotic into the beauty of Minnesota.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Cavs are claiming that they haven't included Wiggins in any trade offer. .
sporthenry
Footballguy
This will turn into a who is the best player ever since just about everyone has been traded. Oscar Robertson, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, Moses, Barkley, Pippen and Shaq. You also technically have LeBron James, Bill Russell, and Kobe Bryant in the discussion.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Todem
Footballguy
Grant Hill was fantastic when he was about to hit the market but decided to be a gamer and play on a obviously bad ankle...then he severely broke it and his career changed forever.Abraham said:
Man Grant Hill was so damn good before that awful injury...(ironically against Miami) in the post season I believe. Then he got that crazy contract from Orlando along with Tracy McGrady. I remember that off-season well. Heat landed PJ Brown and Juwan Howard and the league kaboshed the Howard signing.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Sammy3469
Footballguy
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Top 10 pay-cuts from last year to this.
http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2014/07/24/kobe-dirk-among-biggest-pay-cuts-of-the-offseason/
1. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas. Pay cut of $14.75 million: One of just two players on this list who did not change teams in the offseason, Nowitzki went from among the top five in salary to making less money than Avery Bradley. It was initially reported that Nowitzki took $30 million over three years. But it was later discovered that he received just $25 million, creating extra cap room that allowed the Mavericks to sign Chandler Parsons.
2. Pau Gasol, Chicago. ($11.98 million): He might have been further down on this list had the Bulls and Lakers been able to work a sign-and-trade involving Carlos Boozer. He also might have topped the list had he accepted Oklahoma City’s predictable penny-pinching offer of the mid-level exception. He ended up taking a cut of nearly $12 million – and made the Bulls the favorites in the East in the eyes of many.
3. Danny Granger, Miami. ($11.94 million): The former All-Star joined his fourth team in six months, signing with the Heat for the bi-annual exception. That represents about a 700 percent cut in salary from the last year of his max deal signed with the Pacers. As a Sixers fan, I will fondly remember his time in Philadelphia.
4. Paul Pierce, Washington. ($10.01 million): Despite a pay cut of over $10 million, Pierce has the fourth-highest salary on this list, taking the midlevel exception from the Wizards. This seems like a strange landing spot for “The Truth,” who spent years in Boston, talked long-time teammate Kevin Garnett into accepting last summer’s monster trade to Brooklyn and figured to end up with either the Clippers or Lakers, returning to his Inglewood roots. But with Trevor Ariza gone and Martell Webster hurt, Pierce figures to get most of the minutes at small forward ahead of Otto Porter.
5. Richard Jefferson, Dallas ($9.6 million): No surprise here as Jefferson took a veteran’s minimum deal from the Mavericks. The bigger surprise was that Jefferson not only lasted the entire 2013-14 season on the roster of the rebuilding Utah Jazz but started 78 games and averaged double figures.
6. Ben Gordon, Orlando ($8.7 million): The former Sixth Man Award winner became Charlotte’s 16th man when he was waived by the Bobcats/Hornets – after the March 1 deadline, preventing him from signing with a playoff team. All in all, he landed pretty nicely with the Magic, who gave him $4.5 million even though they have young shooting guards Victor Oladipo and Evan Fournier. By the end of this season, he could be a 16th man again.
7. Kris Humphries, Washington ($7.75 million): The best part of his appearance on this list is imagining him still married to lifestyle monetizer Kim Kardashian and picturing her face when he tells her that he took a 200 percent pay cut.
8. Rodney Stuckey, Indiana ($7.27 million): Another one of the, ahem, shrewd deals negotiated by former Pistons GM Joe Dumars, who thought a third guard was worth $25 million over three years. Still just 28, he definitely is worth more than the veteran minimum but got squeezed by the market. But he may be able to rebuild his value by playing on a good team for the first time in his career.
9. Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers. ($6.95 million): His fans will point out his presence on this list and make him out to be some sort of “Magnanimous Mamba.” But the truth is he is one of just two players to actually make $30 million in a season, his salary reduction wasn’t enough to help the Lakers quickly rebuild, and his new salary is conveniently $90,000 more than what Amar’e Stoudemire gets, making Bryant – you guessed it – the highest-paid player.
10. John Salmons, New Orleans ($6.11 million): With a $1 million buyout on a $7 million salary for the 2014-15 season, he was a valuable trade chip that allowed Toronto to land Lou Williams and Atlanta to create cap room. Even if you add the buyout cash to his veteran’s minimum deal, he still is making over $5 million less than last season.
Et cetera: As of July 24, the next player on the list is Heat forward Luol Deng, whose $10 million is nearly $4.3 million less than what he made last season. … In addition to Okafor, another player who could crash the top 10 is Shawn Marion, who is headed for a huge reduction after making $9.3 million with the Mavericks last season. … Dallas already has two players on the list and could add a third. The Mavs are talking with Jameer Nelson, who made $8.6 million last season with Orlando and was scheduled to make $8 million this season before the Magic bought him out for $2 million.
http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2014/07/24/kobe-dirk-among-biggest-pay-cuts-of-the-offseason/
1. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas. Pay cut of $14.75 million: One of just two players on this list who did not change teams in the offseason, Nowitzki went from among the top five in salary to making less money than Avery Bradley. It was initially reported that Nowitzki took $30 million over three years. But it was later discovered that he received just $25 million, creating extra cap room that allowed the Mavericks to sign Chandler Parsons.
2. Pau Gasol, Chicago. ($11.98 million): He might have been further down on this list had the Bulls and Lakers been able to work a sign-and-trade involving Carlos Boozer. He also might have topped the list had he accepted Oklahoma City’s predictable penny-pinching offer of the mid-level exception. He ended up taking a cut of nearly $12 million – and made the Bulls the favorites in the East in the eyes of many.
3. Danny Granger, Miami. ($11.94 million): The former All-Star joined his fourth team in six months, signing with the Heat for the bi-annual exception. That represents about a 700 percent cut in salary from the last year of his max deal signed with the Pacers. As a Sixers fan, I will fondly remember his time in Philadelphia.
4. Paul Pierce, Washington. ($10.01 million): Despite a pay cut of over $10 million, Pierce has the fourth-highest salary on this list, taking the midlevel exception from the Wizards. This seems like a strange landing spot for “The Truth,” who spent years in Boston, talked long-time teammate Kevin Garnett into accepting last summer’s monster trade to Brooklyn and figured to end up with either the Clippers or Lakers, returning to his Inglewood roots. But with Trevor Ariza gone and Martell Webster hurt, Pierce figures to get most of the minutes at small forward ahead of Otto Porter.
5. Richard Jefferson, Dallas ($9.6 million): No surprise here as Jefferson took a veteran’s minimum deal from the Mavericks. The bigger surprise was that Jefferson not only lasted the entire 2013-14 season on the roster of the rebuilding Utah Jazz but started 78 games and averaged double figures.
6. Ben Gordon, Orlando ($8.7 million): The former Sixth Man Award winner became Charlotte’s 16th man when he was waived by the Bobcats/Hornets – after the March 1 deadline, preventing him from signing with a playoff team. All in all, he landed pretty nicely with the Magic, who gave him $4.5 million even though they have young shooting guards Victor Oladipo and Evan Fournier. By the end of this season, he could be a 16th man again.
7. Kris Humphries, Washington ($7.75 million): The best part of his appearance on this list is imagining him still married to lifestyle monetizer Kim Kardashian and picturing her face when he tells her that he took a 200 percent pay cut.
8. Rodney Stuckey, Indiana ($7.27 million): Another one of the, ahem, shrewd deals negotiated by former Pistons GM Joe Dumars, who thought a third guard was worth $25 million over three years. Still just 28, he definitely is worth more than the veteran minimum but got squeezed by the market. But he may be able to rebuild his value by playing on a good team for the first time in his career.
9. Kobe Bryant, LA Lakers. ($6.95 million): His fans will point out his presence on this list and make him out to be some sort of “Magnanimous Mamba.” But the truth is he is one of just two players to actually make $30 million in a season, his salary reduction wasn’t enough to help the Lakers quickly rebuild, and his new salary is conveniently $90,000 more than what Amar’e Stoudemire gets, making Bryant – you guessed it – the highest-paid player.
10. John Salmons, New Orleans ($6.11 million): With a $1 million buyout on a $7 million salary for the 2014-15 season, he was a valuable trade chip that allowed Toronto to land Lou Williams and Atlanta to create cap room. Even if you add the buyout cash to his veteran’s minimum deal, he still is making over $5 million less than last season.
Et cetera: As of July 24, the next player on the list is Heat forward Luol Deng, whose $10 million is nearly $4.3 million less than what he made last season. … In addition to Okafor, another player who could crash the top 10 is Shawn Marion, who is headed for a huge reduction after making $9.3 million with the Mavericks last season. … Dallas already has two players on the list and could add a third. The Mavs are talking with Jameer Nelson, who made $8.6 million last season with Orlando and was scheduled to make $8 million this season before the Magic bought him out for $2 million.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Sammy3469
Footballguy
BURN!He was top 5 last year.
In all seriousness, as Tre said above who besides James, Durant, and potentially Davis is there?
Rose is always hurt
Curry and Harden are even worse defenders
Westbrook and CPaul have arguments
Griffin is just fractionally worse than Love in almost every respect besides blocked shots
P George...seems like stretch
After that you get to the next tier of admittedly great guys, but no one who projects to be as good as Love and then your to the 2014 draft class (Wiggins :hi
. Which is why if Minny can get Wiggins they need to have already done the trade. He's at least a full 90 cents on the dollar in value which is more than most teams trading super-duper-stars get.
Todem
Footballguy
What a load of class A BS. LOL.
They are doing everything they can to try and pry Love away. They know they have almost no shot at a title without him in the next two years. And if they get him I still think they have maybe a 30-35% shot at a title. People are overrating Kyrie (IMO) who has yet to finish a season and play prime time post season basketball/defense and it is yet to be seen if Love is a prime time post season player and can finish multiple seasons. Gotta see something first before you crown them. Lot's of unknowns and potential. Lebron no question raises the players around him but you need more than one true star to win rings. Wiggins is a heck of a prospect. But time is not on Lebron's side. He knows it and the Cav's know this (maybe who knows with the Cav's front office). That letter is funny (My patience will be tested LOL) because they are going to gut this supposedly great core to win now....which I know Cav's fans want. You should want that. You want a title. Then you need players who are ready right now. You have one in Lebron. And two guys who barely sniffed the floor in Miami over their careers. Lebron will find out soon enough how good he had it in Miami with Wade and Bosh, Spo, etc etc.
I think to get Love it will take Wiggins for sure, and some combo of Anthony and or Waiters and or #1 picks. And Minny is playing it right. They get to see Wiggins play a little this year and evaluate if he indeed shows promise. If he does they can try and pull the trigger. If he shows nothing the Cav's lose all their leverage. Wiggins is the only real golden chip they have right now IMO.
Minny will make a deal at some point but I think the Bulls and Warriors have more to offer that will have impact now plus the future. Where as Cleveland is offering all unknowns. Seriously other than Wiggins it is all unknowns. And Wiggins at this point is an NBA unknown.
Love is a terrific player (elite scorer no question) and only 25. He also wants to get a big time contract. So there is that aspect too. No one knows what he is thinking in that regard. Can he trust that Lebron will stick around? Let's play what if for a second.
What if Cleveland really flops as a team this upcoming season. Kyrie get's hurt as usual, Anthony continues to show not much, Wiggins is 19...they scratch and claw to a 3 seed in the East and get knocked out in the semi's, Lebron is doing all the heavy lifting again like people think he did down here which in of itself is ridiculous because if you watched The Heat (I am talking all the games) throughout the 4 year run Wade and Bosh were huge to Lebron's success and gave him the platform to operate and play the best basketball of his career (and probably the best you will ever see him play) what does Lebron do? What happens in two years if they are just getting knocked out of the post season...not making it to at least the ECF? Then what does Lebron do? What will Cav's fans start complaining about again? What happens when the honeymoon period is over in the media and fan base? What will Lebrons money making legacy machine do to plot it's next move for the brand known as "Lebron"?
Does anyone think he will never leave Cleveland again? I don't think so...but what does Love think? Getting stuck in Cleveland if Lebron bails again? Because Lebron is all about Lebron. It's quite obvious. So many variables about being traded to a town like Cleveland who can't give him a max deal.
Just food for thought.
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B-Deep
Footballguy
you sound jilted
any team with Lebron has a shot, you know that. Lebron and Kyrie they certainly have a shot.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Dubs aren't getting Love. Any offer (from GSW) leaked is likely being done so by MIN to drive up the price.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I also think people are overplaying the age factor with LeBron. Yes the clock is ticking, but there's a LOT of time left on it. LeBron is 29, he'll turn 30 during the next season. Jordan had only three rings on his 32nd birthday. And just a wild guess here but I expect LeBron's game to age better than Jordan's, given how much more James relies on passing and three point shooting, two skills that tend to age well.
Not comparing the two (settle down fantasycurse). I'm saying there's precedent for a megastar game-changing wing to continue to lead teams to championships well into his 30s, and also that I think LeBron's game should age well.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
Every fan base has their share of delusional or super homer fans, as long as someone iusn't making idiotic blanket statements like all Cavs fans are.......
saintfool
Dead sexy
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Todem
Footballguy
I agree they have a shot. Not a great one though. This is not Miami. I think there is this sense of jubilation in Cleveland and a "feel good" "let's root for Lebron again" around the country. But the reality of what they really are will be evident next season without a guy like Kevin Love in the lineup along with Lebron.
If they land Love they have a fairly decent shot at getting to the finals. I still think year one though will be growing pains. Much more than year one in Miami. The Heat were built to win now. The Cav's are not in the same class....just not. You're talking about Lebron not playing with two no doubt HOF players around him.
It's Lebron and ????? Let's be real about it. What proven assets do they have other than Lebron that are battle tested and ready to win a title right now. To win a title you need more than one star. They have one legit star right now.
Lebron.
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Todem
Footballguy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Thread title is pretty dull right now 
pollardsvision
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I got no love for the guy but based on his twitter feed today it seems like he's already smoothing it over (and also that he's halfway around the world and has no idea that he started a bit of a firestorm).
James HardenVerified account @JHarden13
Duh! RT @kingshap: @JHarden13 you gonna miss Parsons?
James Harden @JHarden13 · 1h
Of course! RT @dhud8: Just wondering @JHarden13 did you consider your self as a roll player on OKC?
James Harden @JHarden13 · 1h
What did I say? RT @Real_Sean_Ross: @JHarden13 real **** move to say about your boy parsons.
Harden is right to some extent, of course, but that was a Richard move for sure.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
rodg12
Footballguy
Todem >
Lebron, bosh, broken down wade, the rest 2013
Isn't exactly a huge upgrade over
Irving, James, wiggins (or love) the rest 2014.
Todem
Footballguy
Abe Wade played terrific up until the last 3 games of the finals.Todem >
Lebron, bosh, broken down wade, the rest 2013
Isn't exactly a huge upgrade over
Irving, James, wiggins (or love) the rest 2014.
It is so exaggerated about him being an ineffective player. Yeah he is on the wrong side of 30 but I will wager The Heat were a much better shot for Lebron in 2014/15 with some tweaks than the Cavs built as is.
It is highly debatable and not so outlandish as you make it out to be.
But let's allow next. Season to tell us what happens.
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Abraham
Footballguy
No, I'm pretty sure it's not "highly debatable." If it were, I suspect James would have stayed the course with Miami for one more season.Abe Wade played terrific up until the last 3 games of te finals.Todem >
Lebron, bosh, broken down wade, the rest 2013
Isn't exactly a huge upgrade over
Irving, James, wiggins (or love) the rest 2014.
It is so exaggerated about him being an ineffective player. Yeah he is on the wrong side of 30 but I will wager The Heat were a much better shot for Lebron in 2014/15 with some tweaks than the cavs built as is.
It is highly debatable and not so outlandish as you make it out to be.
But let's allow next. Season to tell us what happens.
And what good is a player that isn't any good for the last three games of the finals?
hxperson
Footballguy
Rockets have to be the most hated team in the league next year, no? The Lakers and Celtics are irrelevant and Lebron is no longer a member of the Heat. They have two unlikeable stars (one probably the most unlikeable in the league) and treated Parsons and Lin pretty poorly.
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Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2014/07/25/parsons-hayward-cash-in-with-biggest-offseason-pay-raises/
Follow-up to pay cuts...biggest pay raises.
Follow-up to pay cuts...biggest pay raises.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Abraham
Footballguy
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Todem
Footballguy
Well given that Wade, Bosh and yes Lebron played in four straight Finals , they all looked pretty exhausted chasing around The Spurs (that had a little something to do with that). The Heat play a high intensity style of defense that ended up being a culprit to their demise vs a deep, and fast ball moving Spurs team. The Heat were chasing them all over the court and it finally after 4 straight Finals appearances and two titles caught up to them.No, I'm pretty sure it's not "highly debatable." If it were, I suspect James would have stayed the course with Miami for one more season.Abe Wade played terrific up until the last 3 games of te finals.Todem >
Lebron, bosh, broken down wade, the rest 2013
Isn't exactly a huge upgrade over
Irving, James, wiggins (or love) the rest 2014.
It is so exaggerated about him being an ineffective player. Yeah he is on the wrong side of 30 but I will wager The Heat were a much better shot for Lebron in 2014/15 with some tweaks than the cavs built as is.
It is highly debatable and not so outlandish as you make it out to be.
But let's allow next. Season to tell us what happens.
And what good is a player that isn't any good for the last three games of the finals?
Wade was still getting into the paint but not having his shots drop anymore and he was obviously out of gas. As the rest of the team. They all looked done. Yes...even Lebron. He was exhausted too. 4 straight years of going all the way to the Finals is like almost playing 6 seasons inside of 4 years.
Also if you think Lebron going after 4 years from The Heat to the Cav's was a basketball decision, in the short term I think your not seeing the bigger picture. But I already posted about that week ago (Branding, dollars after basketball, PR and family and "going home" played the biggest role no question..not winning a title in 2014/15 or even 15/16).
Agree to disagree and next season let's see how the Cav's finish and for that matter The Heat. I will be quite active here during the regular season this time around as I think it is very exciting that nothing is pretty much a given anymore in the East. It was always who will beat the Heat in the East for 4 years. Now it's who will come out of the East.
Nice change for the entire league.
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Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Ah, okay. We'll stick with that logic and say franchises can do whatever the hell they want to players because they give them a lot of money.
Don't get me wrong, I don't feel the slightest bit bad for Asik. But the organization treated him quite poorly.
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