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*NBA THREAD* Abe will be missed (4 Viewers)

Abraham said:
Who has acquired top 5/superstar player status solely by virtue of winning a title? I guess I don't agree that there are a ton of people for whom merely winning a title would confer superstar status. The stars and franchise players are usually recognized as such even in the absence of a title.
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Dwyane Wade, perhaps, after 2006...?
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I mean yeah, maybe in the minds of casual basketball fans. And serious fans might have started to consider where he would end up ranking among the all time greats after that win. But he averaged 27 ppg on a 50 win team and was all NBA 2d team behind Kobe that year, and made the 2d team and the all defensive team the year before that. I think serious basketball fans knew he was a franchise player before his finals appearance.

 
thecatch said:
Abraham said:
Who has acquired top 5/superstar player status solely by virtue of winning a title? I guess I don't agree that there are a ton of people for whom merely winning a title would confer superstar status. The stars and franchise players are usually recognized as such even in the absence of a title.
Click to expand...
Dwyane Wade, perhaps, after 2006...?
Click to expand...
I mean yeah, maybe in the minds of casual basketball fans. And serious fans might have started to consider where he would end up ranking among the all time greats after that win. But he averaged 27 ppg on a 50 win team and was all NBA 2d team behind Kobe that year, and made the 2d team and the all defensive team the year before that. I think serious basketball fans knew he was a franchise player before his finals appearance.
Click to expand...
That's kind of what I was going for. Sure we all know who the stars are, and if for example New Orleans wins the 2015 title and Sacramento wins the 2016 title no serious fan is gonna say they did it without a franchise player. But many fans and media who don't follow religiously diss the top-heavy power structure in the NBA, saying it's frustrating to follow the league since you can't win unless your team lucks into a generational talent like Jordan or LeBron or Duncan. I know, I used to be one of them. My point was that this isn't true, there's lots of examples of teams winning titles without an all-time Top ten talent at his peak, and that the problem is that winning the title confers that status on them so you get a chicken-and-egg type problem. Wade is one example. KG is another. Dirk is another. Parker during Duncan's slow decline is another. Yeah they made some all-NBA teams before they won a title, but half the league has a guy on the roster that's made an all-NBA team in the last couple years. So that proves you don't need one of those transcendent guys to win a title- more often it's the title makes them transcendent guys.

 
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Abraham said:
Who has acquired top 5/superstar player status solely by virtue of winning a title? I guess I don't agree that there are a ton of people for whom merely winning a title would confer superstar status. The stars and franchise players are usually recognized as such even in the absence of a title.
Click to expand...
Dwyane Wade, perhaps, after 2006...?
Click to expand...
Billups comes to mind for me. Prior to winning a title in 2004, he hadn't even been to an All-Star game. He got the moniker "Mister Big-Shot" after that title run, I think. He's a fine player, maybe the best player even, on a largely anonymous team. After that he began to sniff MVP votes and make All NBA squads for a few years. I sort of felt like he was touted as a great PG solely because he had a ring when nothing suggested he was any different than he was when he entered the league. He offered leadership, I susppose, but I felt he he was never a player that teams had to scheme against.

 
TobiasFunke said:
thecatch said:
Abraham said:
Who has acquired top 5/superstar player status solely by virtue of winning a title? I guess I don't agree that there are a ton of people for whom merely winning a title would confer superstar status. The stars and franchise players are usually recognized as such even in the absence of a title.
Click to expand...
Dwyane Wade, perhaps, after 2006...?
Click to expand...
I mean yeah, maybe in the minds of casual basketball fans. And serious fans might have started to consider where he would end up ranking among the all time greats after that win. But he averaged 27 ppg on a 50 win team and was all NBA 2d team behind Kobe that year, and made the 2d team and the all defensive team the year before that. I think serious basketball fans knew he was a franchise player before his finals appearance.
Click to expand...
That's kind of what I was going for. Sure we all know who the stars are, and if for example New Orleans wins the 2015 title and Sacramento wins the 2016 title no serious fan is gonna say they did it without a franchise player. But many fans and media who don't follow religiously diss the top-heavy power structure in the NBA, saying it's frustrating to follow the league since you can't win unless your team lucks into a generational talent like Jordan or LeBron or Duncan. I know, I used to be one of them. My point was that this isn't true, there's lots of examples of teams winning titles without an all-time Top ten talent at his peak, and that the problem is that winning the title confers that status on them so you get a chicken-and-egg type problem. Wade is one example. KG is another. Dirk is another. Parker during Duncan's slow decline is another. Yeah they made some all-NBA teams before they won a title, but half the league has a guy on the roster that's made an all-NBA team in the last couple years. So that proves you don't need one of those transcendent guys to win a title- more often it's the title makes them transcendent guys.
Click to expand...
I agree with your underlying point, and It's true to some degree in all team sports that the average fan will overrate players on winning teams, and underrate those on losing teams. But I don't think Wade, Garnett, and Dirk are great examples.

Even before Wade's great postseason run in 2006, he had a great regular season. And despite him winning the title and finals MVP, the consensus was that Kobe, coming off his highest scoring season/81 point game/etc, was still the best SG if not best overall player. Over the next handful seasons, when healthy, Wade was a legitimate top 5 player.

Garnett and, to a lesser extent, Nowitzki, were underrated largely on the basis of their postseason "failures" leading up to them actually winning one. But I'd put Garnett as a top 15 player of all time, with Nowitzki having an argument for top 20. So them winning one has somewhat righted the wrong. Still, Garnett didn't win the Finals MVP even though he was deserving. Maybe I'm not judging general perception accurately, but I don't think their titles have significantly altered their overall legacy. All of this is just an attempt to assess the average fan's mind though, so it's not that important to ponder.

 
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Abraham said:
I'm not sure anyone ever thought of billups as a top 5 guy.

I think Pippen would qualify as well.
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Pippen wasn't even considered top 5 after 3 titles. It took a Jordan retirement to earn him his due respect. He was 9th in MVP voting in 91-92, absent in 92-93, and then after Jordan retired he came in 3rd and was widely recognized as the top non center in the league.

 
Was the last US National Team loss in 2006?

Doesn't seem like that long ago we were #####ing about them struggling. Guess it is though.

 
Abe, get your ### into the CFB thread. We want to hurt your feelings when UT loses to Utah State. :)

Edit: Or not.

:kicksrock:

 
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scoobus said:
Very unimpressed with Cousins, Gay, Rose, and DeRozan.
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Harden had his moments offensively, and Davis was a stud. Faried had some highlights to go along with a couple dumb plays. No one else should feel good about this game. I thought Klay looked really bad.

 
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The ratings for this World Cup thing is a total disaster here in the US. Nobody cares. Some cable cartoon outrated it the other day.

We should just start sending college kids and call it a day. Risking elite pros for something so useless is completely crazy.

 
I liked Andrew Sharp's (Grantland) idea of picking a team for a four-year cycle and once you participate you are done. So Durant, LeBron, et al wouldn't have even been eligible for this cycle but guys like Curry (who wouldn't be eligible if it were U23) who have never played are still eligible. Keeps it fresh without just making it a straight youth team.

 
Notorious T.R.E. said:
I'd actually be more interested if it were college kids. Maybe I'm the only one.
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The tournament itself would probably be more interesting. I don't think our college kids would lose to any of these current teams save Spain. With no Parker/Noah and Ginobili this tournament isn't nearly as good as it could be.

 
Check out Mexico's roster. It's a bunch of scrub college players. They qualified for the knockout round. There are 32 teams in this tournament. Most of them are not good.

 
Moe. said:
Check out Mexico's roster. It's a bunch of scrub college players. They qualified for the knockout round. There are 32 teams in this tournament. Most of them are not good.
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I've watched a lot of this crap. I couldn't even tell you who the third good team would be.

 
Juxtatarot said:
I don't think college kids could even beat a team like Finland let alone France, Turkey, Slovenia, Argentina, etc.
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Probably true. None of those teams would be a factor in qualifying though.

ETA: Have you watched Finland at all? I think a high-school all-star team would be favored against them.

 
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When will Canada start qualifying for these? Feels like within the next 10-15 years they will be right there with Spain in terms of best non-US teams.

 
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