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NCAA HOOPS THREAD! -- K petitions to get Maui Jim Maui Invitational moved to Transylvania (1 Viewer)
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pantherclub
Footballguy
Paying the players isnt going to stop anything. It will just open the floodgates and create a very public arms race.
There is no solution, the point of no return was hit a long time ago. When the filthy AAU got their hooks in this then it was all over. The only thing I can think of is setting it up like baseball and no NBA for 3 years out of high school but even then I doubt that this gets corrected.
pantherclub
Footballguy
I dont understand how you guys think that will help. It would just be unbalanced to the schools with the wealthiest alumni and such.
Capella
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
I get that but I dont see how thats any cleaner then whats happening now. Assuming the NCAA is still going to try and lean on the "amateur athlete" angle after all this is said and done.
The NCAA is holding on, with dear life, to the notion that the Basketball, and Football, players are actual student-athletes.
The romance of the student-athlete competing against other students from another school went out the window - a long time ago - at these major Division 1 schools.
Even the Olympics gave up that fight years ago. Its time to recognize the industry for what it is - a multi-billion dollar entertainment industry - where the labor is incredibly cheap, relative to the benefits the schools (and coaches and ADs) derive. Yes, some companies/schools will be bigger, and have greater advantages. Thats already true today in college sports, and its true in business.
mr. furley
Footballguy
this is a common argument (maybe not 3 years, but some layoff between HS and the NBA) and it just never makes sense to me
even in industries that say "BA required" or something.. that's more to weed out people considering the job so that they don't get flunkies walking in off the streets wasting their time by applying. my job said "min. BA required + at least 3 years experience". i had neither of those things. just interviewed (worked out?) well.
why should someone who has the tools be prohibited from taking a job? this isn't the medical profession where lives are on the line. this is.... basketball. if a kid can play at 18, then he should be able to play for a team that selects him.
in Europe kids can play professionally at.. what.. 14? are those leagues destroying the country?
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
What are you talking about?
Why exactly is it bad for players to get paid? I understand why it's bad for them to be paid when it's a federal crime to pay them, but why do we pretend like amateurism is awesome in sports?
Would you agree to work your job for 3 years for free while your bosses are making literally billions of dollars off of you and other "amateur employees" pretty much exclusively? Of course not! So why do we expect that from these athletes?
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
It's cleaner because 4 assistant coaches are facing 80 years in prison because of the current system solely because the NCAA pretends that amateurism is a thing when they know it isn't a thing for the top players.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I wouldn't mind baseball's rules, though. You can go pro out of high school, but if you go to college you have to stay there for a certain number of years at minimum (in baseball it's 3, I believe).
i think that's a fair compromise between allowing the best players to go pro right away and not forcing the schools to be one and done feeder systems that only pretend to be schools.
Then again, I also think the schools should be able to pay the athletes (or at least allow them to get endorsements).
pantherclub
Footballguy
I dont think its bad for them to get paid per se, I am just saying that if the NCAA wants to keep up with the "amateur athlete student" angle than that model doesnt make much sense.
mr. furley
Footballguy
the best players get drafted and go to the minors, though
it makes no sense to me to prohibit kids from getting a job if they are capable.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
The amateur athlete model doesn't make sense when schools are making $100 M/year off basketball and football.
pantherclub
Footballguy
the best players get drafted and go to the minors, though
it makes no sense to me to prohibit kids from getting a job if they are capable.
I dont necessarily disagree but its not that cut and dry
absolutely but as long as the NCAA is in place with their rules it doesnt matter what schools make off those sports. Its supposed to be amateurism
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
As a big UK fan, I know this is going on across the country. I believe Cal is much too smart (or slick) to leave a paper trail that will get him popped. With the NBA pipeline he has established he doesn't have to. It's one year and you are set.
That being said, the emergence of AAU, street agents, one and done has created a perfect storm of corruption. Heck in Ohio the OHSAA is now running commercials to get kids to play high school sports instead of club sports. It's a sad period of time for college basketball but probably long overdue, and no I am not at all upset at the irony the hot potato exploded in Pitino's greasy hands.
That being said, the emergence of AAU, street agents, one and done has created a perfect storm of corruption. Heck in Ohio the OHSAA is now running commercials to get kids to play high school sports instead of club sports. It's a sad period of time for college basketball but probably long overdue, and no I am not at all upset at the irony the hot potato exploded in Pitino's greasy hands.
mr. furley
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
For starters there are not too many options for the kid if he goes into the draft and doesnt get drafted. There are more but that seems to be a big one to start off with
mr. furley
Footballguy
because a kid is too dumb to get a job if he doesn't get drafted? go to Europe? enroll in school somewhere and make a new career?
pantherclub
Footballguy
basically yeah, protecting him from himself kindof thing
In a nutshell I dont think the kids (or parents/handlers) quite comprehend what happens if this basketball thing doesnt work out. But I am a bit old school and think a (free) college degree at least gives them some latitude.
Its not rocket surgery.The kids enroll at UK in the summer, take a couple of classes. In the fall semester, they have to be full-time students - which back in my student-athlete days was 12 credit hours. I think they have to have 24 credits at the end of the spring semester to remain academically eligible - so that just leaves 2 classes they have to take in the spring - not particularly taxing, even if you are prepping for an NBA draft combine...
UK basketball players all live in a basketball dorm - with academic advisors, and student-tutors. They only have to leave the dorm for a short walk to practice.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
Is that how college works for the people who are there for every other program/function of the school?
Or are the athletes the only ones unable to make adult decisions?
pantherclub
Footballguy
I am referring to the kids that enter the draft out of hs and then cannot take a scholly
mr. furley
Footballguy
we don't do this for kids who don't shoot for the NBA, though
nobody tried to protect me from myself when i left at 17. nobody said "you have to go to at least one year of college before getting a job". it helps, yes, but it's not a death sentence. especially since there's no prohibition on going to school one day.
it's not as if skip school, don't get drafted = work in the coal mines
there's an assumption that any kid who wants to play in the NBA won't be able to do anything else if it doesn't work out. or that a kid who goes to college will automatically be successful.
why? why would 1 year of college make a kid successful in the NBA? he may go to school for 3 months and then declare. what good did that do? what good would 2-3 years of having a TA take their exams do?
kids who want to go to college & get a degree are going to do so
kids who want to go straight to the NBA but get forced to go to school are either going to be good enough to be allowed to skate by without doing the work... or they're going to drop out
maybe a small number will be forced to go to school and say "hey, i hate school and i don't want to be here but... i'm changing my mind and this is a great opportunity for me to graduate and maybe get a job making 50k a year instead of going straight to the NBA and collecting a couple million over 3 years"
mr. furley
Footballguy
well, that's got to change. why the NCAA puts a prohibition on, really, only basketball players is ridiculous.
and there are opportunities outside of D1 where kids can go to school and have it get paid. it's not all or nothing.
I think, in general, this is true. But, I don't think the NBA wants these players at 18 - because it negatively impacts their product. But, the NBA does not want to be in the position of "prohibiting" players from being selected. So, they would prefer the NCAA does something about it.
NBA has been getting a free ride on college basketball for a long time now - trying to figure out how to stop the ride, so everyone can re-group is tough to do.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
Agree, I don't understand this rule. If Kobe wants to go to college now and play for 4 years post NBA, why not? Every other guy in his mid-30s is free to try.
mr. furley
Footballguy
how does it negatively impact their product?
did Kevin Garnett negatively impact the NBA?
if an 18 year old gets drafted and he's not better than someone else, he washes out (see; Bennett, Anthony).
is the thought that too many 18 year olds would run amok and destroy the NBA? is this the old "the NBA is just a bunch of thugs" argument re-dressed?
Its funny you mention Garnett, because I am old enough to remember when he first came in - I had season tickets for the Hawks, and recall that when Minnesota came to town - Garnett basically played played the 2nd Quarter, and then a few minutes in the 2nd half - because he was not ready. The Timberwolves eased him into the line-up like that all season.
I don't think the NBA are a bunch of thugs - it is a man's game though, and most 18 yos are not physically up to the task yet. Some are - and I see no reason why they should be excluded. But, NBA teams draft based on potential - not current ability. So, if you make 18 yos eligible, I think the concern is you end up with too many players with "potential" and not enough players with current "ability".
NBA prefers the NCAA model - because, even one year allows more physical maturity, and reduces (not eliminates) some of the inherent risk in drafting based on potential. It also creates a marketing outlet where these players become household names (among basketball fans) without the NBA having to spend a dime on marketing.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Stop taking away kids eligibility for declaring. Let them have their four years until they sign a professional contract. So if they go undrafted let them have the option to sign a free agent contract or go back to college.
Give them college credits for playing sports that go towards earning a degree so they dont have to take other classes they aren't interested in for a degree. Obviously, the top 10 guys rarely care about the degree but help the guys that aren't sure fire pros too.
Paying them won't stop under the table money from changing hands. That's not stopping until they are total free agents. Hell, the NCAA is going to have to create a salary cap like pro sports has.
Give them college credits for playing sports that go towards earning a degree so they dont have to take other classes they aren't interested in for a degree. Obviously, the top 10 guys rarely care about the degree but help the guys that aren't sure fire pros too.
Paying them won't stop under the table money from changing hands. That's not stopping until they are total free agents. Hell, the NCAA is going to have to create a salary cap like pro sports has.
Vanilla Guerrilla
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
How about just stop taking it away period? Guy goes pro, crashes and burns, goes back to college 2 years later. Whats wrong with that? I can see why the NBA wouldn't want that, but why wouldn't the NCAA?
WampusCat43
Footballguy
I'm as big a homer as anybody, and will be very surprised if UK gets any dirt thrown on them. UK has built one of the largest compliance departments in the country to avoid these situations. Heck, we're the reason the NCAA has a compliance program. They'd love to bust us again. Cal's in the unique position, as described before, of not needing to pay players up front. His $1B worth of pro contracts for his former players speaks for itself. There have been many kids (Shabazz Muhammad comes to mind) that UK has suddenly backed away from. I believe at least some of them were dropped because they and their posse were standing there with their hand out.
WampusCat43
Footballguy
From kentuckysportsradio.com:
Up until this morning, the identity of Coach-2 from University-6 in the FBI’s report was a mystery.
But now we may know thanks to CBS, and it’s Rick Pitino.
A federal bribery investigation into men’s college basketball may have cost hall of fame coach Rick Pitino his job: pic.twitter.com/0XaGaOvXCR
— CBS This Morning (@CBSThisMorning) September 28, 2017
A reminder: Coach-2 was the coach with the “big swinging d—“; the coach with all of the power. Coach-2 was also in the discussion of getting more money for Brian Bowen’s family, and was asked to call Jim Gatto, the adidas rep, for the funds.
If true, Pitino’s “I’m shocked” and “I’m innocent” approach is a complete lie (shocker) and what little is left of his legacy is completely destroyed.
UPDATE
The Wall Street Journal is also reporting that Pitino is indeed Coach-2.
Deep ****, Birdsong.
Up until this morning, the identity of Coach-2 from University-6 in the FBI’s report was a mystery.
But now we may know thanks to CBS, and it’s Rick Pitino.
A federal bribery investigation into men’s college basketball may have cost hall of fame coach Rick Pitino his job: pic.twitter.com/0XaGaOvXCR
— CBS This Morning (@CBSThisMorning) September 28, 2017
A reminder: Coach-2 was the coach with the “big swinging d—“; the coach with all of the power. Coach-2 was also in the discussion of getting more money for Brian Bowen’s family, and was asked to call Jim Gatto, the adidas rep, for the funds.
If true, Pitino’s “I’m shocked” and “I’m innocent” approach is a complete lie (shocker) and what little is left of his legacy is completely destroyed.
UPDATE
The Wall Street Journal is also reporting that Pitino is indeed Coach-2.
Deep ****, Birdsong.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Unlimited eligibilty? Or you can play four years between high school and death?
pantherclub
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
Yeah I wasnt quite sure what point he was trying to make so I let that post slide
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
mr. furley
Footballguy
most rookies aren't ready. in any sport. or any job. it takes time to acclimate. not just physically or emotionally but mentally. the game is faster. it's more complex. it's new information at a minimum.
any new job has a learning curve. people don't just jump in and take over a company. you learn the ropes as you go and build from there.
the NBA is 75% athletic ability right now. doesn't matter if you "play the game the right way" (whatever that means). can you jump out of the gym? can you move laterally in a blink? do you have super human quick twitch? we can teach you the rest. very few people in the world have the physical measurables to play in the NBA. if you have the physical potential, then the rest is teachable with time.
and the NBA, like every company selling a product, is always looking for the next development.. the next new shiny product.. the next hot item they can sell. barring 18 year olds and protecting the middle-class players and older isn't helping sell jerseys. it's not exciting to fans anymore to keep a team together for 6-8 years.
fans turn quickly on losing teams. they get bored with the same narrative.
eta: weird. there was more to that (tl;dr). thought it got posted earlier but wasn't. came back to reply and this popped up... short a couple paragraphs.
gb FBGs, only the mistakes have been mine
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Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Sweet so Carmelo has three years of eligibility left? Syracuse own his rights or free agent every season?
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Garnett played 2293 minutes over 80 games his rookie season. His 28.7 MPG was fourth on the team.
Only one rookie last season played over 2000 minutes - Brandon Ingram's 2279, slightly less (but not significantly less) than Garnett's usage.
Over the last three seasons, only three rookies played more minutes than Garnett did his rookie season: Karl-Anthony Towns, Andrew Wiggins, and Elfrid Payton.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Yep. 3 years left. No different than current rules for students transferring, etc.
What would be the harm in allowing him to come back and get a degree? If the guy wants to play NCAA basketball again when he is 38 and he is still good enough to hack it, why is that a problem other than some preconceived notion of how it is supposed to work? Seems unlikely a guy like Carmelo would do this, but what about Iverson? Wouldnt it be pretty cool to see him actually get a degree? Would be fun to watch him stack up also. Could he hack it?
Who would quit making millions in the NBA in order to go back to NCAA basketball? That right there would eliminate the thought of guys in their prime for some reason heading back to college to dominate.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Sounds like you want the NCAA to be the D-league. I'm not really agreeing or disagreeing with you but I'm not sure the thing that makes college sports great (hard to describe passion/pageantry) is going to exist with 40 something year old washed up NBA players going back to college to play. But it's also not realistic because Adidas isn't dropping big money on Iverson to go play for Georgetown because he's not going to sell them shoes at this point.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
I'm in the camp that there should be no cap to the years of eligibility. If a student-athlete wants to try playing intercollegiate sports while pursuing a Master's or PhD, let them do it. I think it would be pretty fun to see if a player could hang on the roster that long. Let every program experience what KU did with Perry Ellis playing forward for the Jayhawks for 17 years.
He averaged under 19 minutes a game through the end of January - first 41 games. 777 minutes in his first 41 games.
It was done by design. He would start, and play, the 2nd period, and then they would go from there, based on how he was doing, and game situation. I remember thinking at the time it was the best situation for him to get introduced to the NBA - he was not expected to carry the team, and was allowed to ease into life as an NBA player.