NCAA HOOPS THREAD! -- K petitions to get Maui Jim Maui Invitational moved to Transylvania (2 Viewers)

[ffmail4me]

 State won in Chapel Hill last January.

Duke is the favorite to win it every year.  Crazy they haven't won it more often with all the top recruiting classes year after year.

I didn't realize they just beat them last year. My bad. Just seems like they rarely do, even though State has a great new coach and is a program on the rise. 

And yeah, I guess Duke is a favorite each year, but that's kinda stupid too. To expect 3-5 new freshman to come in and gel and be better than experienced teams just seems foolish. Sure, it happened in 2015 and it happened once for Kentucky, but those are the exceptions to the rule. But this Duke team plays defense as good as any team that has won the national championship in the last 5-10 years. And I just think Zion can be what Carmelo or Durant was for their teams. Just my humble opinion. 

 

[Scoresman]

 State won in Chapel Hill last January.

Duke is the favorite to win it every year.  Crazy they haven't won it more often with all the top recruiting classes year after year.

They are certainly the favorite, but they're a juicy pick for the upset.  In games against more experienced teams, they've shown that they have vulnerabilities.  ACC play will either confirm this or prove it wrong.  

 

[TobiasFunke]

Congratulations to the Duke men's basketball program on playing their first road game of the season last night!  Can't believe I missed the momentous occasion.

So is Ripley's back? Where's the knitting thread?

 

[parasaurolophus]

I really thought Purdue would be better this year. 

How has Mich St. played 5 conference games already? 

 

[Uruk-Hai]

To expect 3-5 new freshman to come in and gel and be better than experienced teams just seems foolish. 

Who is building the team that way in Durham?

 

[apalmer]

Pitt actually wins an ACC game!   

The Kevin Stallings era is officially over.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Wasn't a great game until Howard exploded, that was an unreal performance with 40 2nd half points

I had PTSD flashbacks last night watching the Marquette/Creighton overtime.

 

[ffmail4me]

What a great ending to the Duke FSU game. Happy for Cam as he’s been in a horrible slump the last month. Hope Zion will be okay. 

so what happened in Chapel Hill, didn’t see the game but shocked by the score. Is Louisville criminally underrated or UNC overrated or maybe both? 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

GT > Syracuse > Duke

 

[ffmail4me]

Battle was unreal for Syracuse. And Duke's MVP has to be Tre Jones. They were a completely different team without him. Duke fans better pray his injury isn't season ending or their title chances go way way down. 

 

[ffmail4me]

Big win for Duke tonight without Tre Jones. ACC looks so strong this year. And no more undefeated teams. So next week is Duke #1 or Tennessee? 

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Is it just me, or does Coach K not look healthy? He looks bloated and, I dunno, jaundiced or something. I'm not being snarky here. I was watching tonight's game and thought "this dude doesn't look right".

Anyway, fun day of hoops which made a miserable, rainy day pass much easier. Wisconsin/Michigan was good and so was Kentucky/Auburn. Duke/UVA was pretty much everything you could want.

 

[Hoos First]

Congrats Duke fans. Good game. I thought we looked awful, especially on the defense end with giving up too many offensive rebounds, but Duke caused it to happen. Wished we would have won but losing on the road to the #1 is expected.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Congrats Duke fans. Good game. I thought we looked awful, especially on the defense end with giving up too many offensive rebounds, but Duke caused it to happen. Wished we would have won but losing on the road to the #1 is expected.

Not many teams can do to UVA what Duke did - they broke down the Hoos' D and drove the ball to the hoop. 

Both teams were sloppy - Duke missed a bazillion FTs and UVA missed as many lay ups - but both are FF-caliber teams.

 

[ffmail4me]

Congrats Duke fans. Good game. I thought we looked awful, especially on the defense end with giving up too many offensive rebounds, but Duke caused it to happen. Wished we would have won but losing on the road to the #1 is expected.

Thanks Hoos First. You guys have an amazing coach and program. Did you see that stat they showed, over the last I think 5 years or so, UVA has won like 10-12 more conference games than any other team in the ACC (Duke and UNC were tied for distant second) I was pleasantly surprised Duke won without Jones. Like Uruk-Hai said both teams are FF caliber.

Wanted to share this, a guy from my high school went to game last night, his company (Continental) has the first row of seats behind one of the goals. He literally sat on the very front row and watched Zion do that nasty right handed tomahawk dunk. He called me last night and said "I watched Lebron play his senior year in high school, and Zion is so much better than he was at this same stage and it wasn't even close" And his father (probably in his 70s) said Zion was the only person he's seen in person who has as quick and high a vertical leap as David Thompson. THAT is amazingly high praise. And I loved his comments to Scottie Pippen (who said he should sit out the rest of the year since he's a lock for the #1 pick) as he said he would never quit on his coach or teammates as he loves playing basketball. He's just a generational special talent. I think he's the next Jordan from a marketing perspective. 

 

[ffmail4me]

Is it just me, or does Coach K not look healthy? He looks bloated and, I dunno, jaundiced or something. I'm not being snarky here. I was watching tonight's game and thought "this dude doesn't look right".

He has definitely aged over the last few years. But he looks pretty spry compared to Roy who seems to get Vertigo every time his team loses a game 

 

[Hoos First]

Thanks Hoos First. You guys have an amazing coach and program. Did you see that stat they showed, over the last I think 5 years or so, UVA has won like 10-12 more conference games than any other team in the ACC (Duke and UNC were tied for distant second) I was pleasantly surprised Duke won without Jones. Like Uruk-Hai said both teams are FF caliber.

Yeah I saw the stat. Wish we had some final fours to go with it.

 

[ffmail4me]

I certainly wouldn't pick against UVA making it this year. Your system has always been great under Bennett but your talent level is greater this year. I just hope the same thing happens to Duke's football program. Cutcliffe is a brilliant coach, but he basically only gets 3 star recruits. If he could start getting 4 and 5 star guys, I honestly think they could contend for a conference championship. And now that UVA has some 1st round NBA talent, I expect you'll see the same. 

 

[The Kerminator]

Yeah I saw the stat. Wish we had some final fours to go with it.

Much like his father at Wisconsin. Except his dad **** turned the WI program around, he never did get the top recruits. Tony will and he'll get his Final Fours eventually.

 

[Penguin]

Anyone that hasn't seen Murray State's Ja Morant should familiarize yourself, dude's a freak.

 

[ffmail4me]

Anyone that hasn't seen Murray State's Ja Morant should familiarize yourself, dude's a freak.

He and Zion have opposite builds and different games but both are amazing dunkers and fun to watch! 

 

[TripItUp]

Fellas, I wanted to do a deeper dive this year into college hoops to prepare for betting in March Madness.

Which podcasts, websites etc. would your recommend?  I currently only really use Kenpom and whatever ESPN offers, but I'm sure there's a lot more out there.

Thanks!

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I've always thought Seth Davis was an arrogant jackass but geez a simple question on twitter asking to explain his ranking of Tennessee being #1 got this response from Davis. 

https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/1087204202328158208

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I've always thought Seth Davis was an arrogant jackass but geez a simple question on twitter asking to explain his ranking of Tennessee being #1 got this response from Davis. 

https://twitter.com/SethDavisHoops/status/1087204202328158208

That's awful. Davis ain't on an island with TN (CBS has them #1, too), but there's nothing wrong with asking him to explain himself. The questioner wasn't being snarky.

 

[ffmail4me]

I don’t twitter what did Seth say? I don’t see any issue with Tennessee at #1 

 

[Uruk-Hai]

He was asked this:

Can you explain Tenn at #1? They are #4 or lower in KenPom, BPI, Sagarin, Barttorvik, and NET rankings. They only have 6 Q1 & Q2 wins. 16 teams have more. Tenn is 6-1 in such games while UVA is 8-1 and UMich is 9-1. Thanks.

He answered with this:

Can you explain the huge goiter on your neck?

 

[Penguin]

Davis has had Tennessee #1 for about 3 or 4 weeks now. I think he went off the rails because he's been getting questioned about it since around Christmas.

 

[ffmail4me]

He was asked this:

Can you explain Tenn at #1? They are #4 or lower in KenPom, BPI, Sagarin, Barttorvik, and NET rankings. They only have 6 Q1 & Q2 wins. 16 teams have more. Tenn is 6-1 in such games while UVA is 8-1 and UMich is 9-1. Thanks.

He answered with this:

Can you explain the huge goiter on your neck?

Yikes, not a good look for Seth. I don't think Tennessee is the best team in the country but can't really fault them for moving up in a week everyone else lost in the top 4. Although you could fairly argue Duke doesn't lose to Syracuse with 2 starters missing...but I have no issue with them being #1. 

 

[ffmail4me]

I’m saying it, Zion is the best 2 way player as a freshman I’ve ever seen. Better than Jordan, Hill, Pretty much anyone I can recall from mid 80s on. He had 25, 7, and 7 tonight and just missed 2 shots. So efficient and truly unstoppable. 

 

[MAC_32]

@Steve Tasker big game coming up February 1.  Too bad about last night, but let's both win out between now and then.

 

[Steve Tasker]

@Steve Tasker big game coming up February 1.  Too bad about last night, but let's both win out between now and then.

They were never going to go undefeated in conference, and they lost at NIU last year so it wasn't really a shock to me.  The game was very poorly called on both sides, refs had a lot of trouble and the game had basically zero flow for the entirety.  UB had been playing like trash for the past 3-4 games, lots of careless turnovers.  I kinda hope this kicks them in the ### a bit, gotta play a lot better on the road to win games in the MAC.  I think they should be afford another "good" loss or two and be okay for an at-large, but who knows.

Looks like BG is on a nice run right now.  I'm curious where the bracketology guys will seed them, given that they are now in first place in the conference.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

I’m saying it, Zion is the best 2 way player as a freshman I’ve ever seen. Better than Jordan, Hill, Pretty much anyone I can recall from mid 80s on. He had 25, 7, and 7 tonight and just missed 2 shots. So efficient and truly unstoppable. 

Magic in ‘78 wasn’t even as good IMO. ‘79 was a different story.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I’m saying it, Zion is the best 2 way player as a freshman I’ve ever seen. Better than Jordan, Hill, Pretty much anyone I can recall from mid 80s on. He had 25, 7, and 7 tonight and just missed 2 shots. So efficient and truly unstoppable. 

Can't say for sure without an alias check from the mods, but I believe this is the same poster who told us years ago that Jahlil Okafor was already one of the three best centers on earth while he was still at Duke.

 

[MAC_32]

They were never going to go undefeated in conference, and they lost at NIU last year so it wasn't really a shock to me.  The game was very poorly called on both sides, refs had a lot of trouble and the game had basically zero flow for the entirety.  UB had been playing like trash for the past 3-4 games, lots of careless turnovers.  I kinda hope this kicks them in the ### a bit, gotta play a lot better on the road to win games in the MAC.  I think they should be afford another "good" loss or two and be okay for an at-large, but who knows.

Looks like BG is on a nice run right now.  I'm curious where the bracketology guys will seed them, given that they are now in first place in the conference.

14 seed's my guess.  Given how much the computers like the MAC I don't think they can justify 15.  But there weren't any wins over non-conf teams over 500 and there were at least two awful losses.  So, seed low enough that even with wins over Miami and Buffalo they're not quite to the bubble talk yet.  Room for a bump and getting close though.  But, as cool as it'd be this team isn't running the table anyway.  There will be a rough patch in February.  Just hope for the sake of a good story it isn't until after next Friday.

 

[TLEF316]

Can't say for sure without an alias check from the mods, but I believe this is the same poster who told us years ago that Jahlil Okafor was already one of the three best centers on earth while he was still at Duke.

First off, that was me that said that.

2nd, my stance was that his back to the basket scoring was that good. (In retrospect, that was almost certainly wrong and mostly irrelevant since that's not even an important skill in today's NBA) I never said that his overall game was on that level. It was always obvious that he was a terrible defender and subpar rebounder for his size.

3rd, people are wrong about stuff sometimes. Honestly kinda weird that you're bringing it up 4 years later. (And this isn't the first time)

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Ralph Sampson was the most dominant freshman I've ever seen. I don't know where his numbers fall, but if you saw him play you'd know why I bring him up.

 

[TobiasFunke]

First off, that was me that said that.

2nd, my stance was that his back to the basket scoring was that good. (In retrospect, that was almost certainly wrong and mostly irrelevant since that's not even an important skill in today's NBA) I never said that his overall game was on that level. It was always obvious that he was a terrible defender and subpar rebounder for his size.

3rd, people are wrong about stuff sometimes. Honestly kinda weird that you're bringing it up 4 years later. (And this isn't the first time)

I thought he (assuming its who I think it is) was on board with it too. And you know why I'm bringing it up- because it's funny and because the poster has a history both of hyperbolic statements about Duke and otherwise. The guy made light of Roy Williams' vertigo in a weird effort to trash talk a couple days ago, so I'm pretty sure I know who it is and what he's about. If you'd said the same thing about Zion I wouldn't have brought it up, I promise.

 

[TLEF316]

I thought he (assuming its who I think it is) was on board with it too. And you know why I'm bringing it up- because it's funny and because the poster has a history both of hyperbolic statements about Duke and otherwise. The guy made light of Roy Williams' vertigo in a weird effort to trash talk a couple days ago, so I'm pretty sure I know who it is and what he's about. If you'd said the same thing about Zion I wouldn't have brought it up, I promise.

Fair enough

For what it's worth, I still have questions about how much Zion's lack of shooting will hurt him in the pros. He's still going to be the best athlete on the floor most of the time but finishing through grown men won't be quite as easy. Teams are gonna back off him like he's a non shooter and dare him to make 18 footers.

I also wonder how his body holds up over a long season. That's a lot of weight to carry for 82 games

 

[TobiasFunke]

Fair enough

For what it's worth, I still have questions about how much Zion's lack of shooting will hurt him in the pros. He's still going to be the best athlete on the floor most of the time but finishing through grown men won't be quite as easy. Teams are gonna back off him like he's a non shooter and dare him to make 18 footers.

I also wonder how his body holds up over a long season. That's a lot of weight to carry for 82 games

I think his game is tailor-made to be an unstoppable force in college. College-aged kids simply can't handle that combination of size and skill, especially rosters that often only go 7-8 deep and only get 5 fouls. In the NBA the size won't be the ace in the hole that it is in college.  But I still expect him to be pretty great. The shot looks OK, and jumpers almost always improve over time after guys reach the next level. And obviously as he grows his combo of size and skills will give him a leg up over NBA guys too, just not to the same degree.

 

[ffmail4me]

First off, that was me that said that.

2nd, my stance was that his back to the basket scoring was that good. (In retrospect, that was almost certainly wrong and mostly irrelevant since that's not even an important skill in today's NBA) I never said that his overall game was on that level. It was always obvious that he was a terrible defender and subpar rebounder for his size.

3rd, people are wrong about stuff sometimes. Honestly kinda weird that you're bringing it up 4 years later. (And this isn't the first time)

TLEF316 in college Okafor was incredibly skilled and efficient in the post. He averaged almost 18 a game shooting 66%. There was a reason he was a high draft pick. But yes, he was a terrible defender and subpar rebounder and that's why he has struggled and will likely never do anything in the NBA. 

 

[ffmail4me]

Ralph Sampson was the most dominant freshman I've ever seen. I don't know where his numbers fall, but if you saw him play you'd know why I bring him up.

I don't remember Sampson's freshman year, but I believe this for sure. Betting Len Bias was also crazy good his freshman year but I just can't remember those guys first year. But Sampson man he was a monster. 

 

[ffmail4me]

Fair enough

For what it's worth, I still have questions about how much Zion's lack of shooting will hurt him in the pros. He's still going to be the best athlete on the floor most of the time but finishing through grown men won't be quite as easy. Teams are gonna back off him like he's a non shooter and dare him to make 18 footers.

I also wonder how his body holds up over a long season. That's a lot of weight to carry for 82 games

As long as he learns to make his FTs he will be a monster at the next level. Charles Barkley used to score about 10-12 points a game at the line.  And I think the great players can work on their game and develop outside shots. Jordan did this. LeBron did this. What you can't develop is physical gifts like they have. But Jordan wasn't a great 3 point shooter coming into the league. LeBron wasn't at all. So IF Zion has the drive and passion that MJ and LeBron have, I do think he can become one of the best players on the planet. Big if, but so far it sure seems like he loves the game. There really isn't anything unlikable about him. 

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I don't remember Sampson's freshman year, but I believe this for sure. Betting Len Bias was also crazy good his freshman year but I just can't remember those guys first year. But Sampson man he was a monster. 

He wasn't. You could see the potential, but he didn't know how to use it yet and was basically just a jumping jack. He got better as a sophomore, but he exploded as a junior. That's when he became what everyone remembers . Zion Williamson is miles ahead of Bias at the same point in their careers. 

Ralph changed the way UVA's opponents could play - many were too terrified to throw the ball inside at all (no 3 pt shot then). On offense, he hatched already incredibly skilled. And this was pre-shot clock (with teams still stalling a lot), so I'm betting his numbers would be much better than whatever they were.

 

[ffmail4me]

I would have never guessed that about Bias because I just remember the junior who, IMO, was better than Jordan or Dawkins, the 2 other top scorers in the league around that time. He was kinda like LeBron before LeBron. So big yet so explosive. Of course Zion has taken that to a whole new level, and he's as fun to watch on defense as he is offense. 

 

[TLEF316]

TLEF316 in college Okafor was incredibly skilled and efficient in the post. He averaged almost 18 a game shooting 66%. There was a reason he was a high draft pick. But yes, he was a terrible defender and subpar rebounder and that's why he has struggled and will likely never do anything in the NBA. 

Well aware. I watched him since he was a 17 year old putting up a 40 PER at the U19 world championship.

I honestly thought it would translate and at absolute worst, he'd be an Al Jefferson type battering ram inside. But the modern NBA game just isn't built for that style. Plus okafor got lazy. 

You just can't play in today's NBA if you're a constant liability in pick and roll. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

LeBron was a Magic Johnson-level passer as a prospect.  His court vision was obvious to anyone who watched him for 15 minutes. IIRC that was what separated him from the pack as much as anything. So I don't get that comp. Barkley, sure. Karl Malone, maybe. Perhaps a little Greek Freak in his freakish size/strength/skill combo and ability to finish through contact, OK. But LeBron? Zion isn't even the best passing wing on his team.

 

[TLEF316]

LeBron was a Magic Johnson-level passer as a prospect.  His court vision was obvious to anyone who watched him for 15 minutes. IIRC that was what separated him from the pack as much as anything. So I don't get that comp. Barkley, sure. Karl Malone, maybe. Perhaps a little Greek Freak in his freakish size/strength/skill combo and ability to finish through contact, OK. But LeBron? Zion isn't even the best passing wing on his team.

Zion is a far better (and much more willing) passer than Barrett.

But he's absolutely not lebron level. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

Zion is a far better (and much more willing) passer than Barrett.

But he's absolutely not lebron level. 

I'll defer to you since you've seen both players a lot more than I have. I said that because the numbers show Barrett with a much higher assist rate (paired with a lower turnover rate).

 

[TLEF316]

I'll defer to you since you've seen both players a lot more than I have. I said that because the numbers show Barrett with a much higher assist rate (paired with a lower turnover rate).

Most of the time when RJ gives it up, he's giving it up to Zion for a dunk. When Zion passes, it's generally to a jump shooter.(which duke isn't very good at) So to me, it's not surprising that he registers fewer assists.

On most nights, RJ only passes as a last resort. It's especially painful to watch in transition.  He may not have that many official turnovers, but to me, driving into a double team and throwing up a horrible shot because you refuse to pass should count just the same.

He's a double edge sword. He can obviously score in bursts and win games for you, but he's incredibly inefficient on a lot of nights. Thankfully for him, Zion is off the charts efficient pretty much every night and covers up Barrett's flaws. Plus when Jones was playing they got a ton of fast break opportunities off turnovers

 

[ffmail4me]

Agreed Zion is way more a willing passer than Barrett and it’s not even close. Plus Zion has made some beautiful passes this year, lobs, long bounce passes catching players in stride, etc. Zion was a PG as a kid until high school. That’s what is so unique about him, to have that handle and skill set in a power forwards body.