NFL offers to reduce Vilma's suspension to 8 games (1 Viewer)

[GregR]

Vilma needs to take his medicine. He was obviously involved even after he knew they were warned. I have no sympathy for the Saints at all. What they did was to the detriment of the game, not just at the NFL level but all the way down to Pop Warner. Kids see this and get ideas about setting up their own bounty system. Pretty soon a kid is injured severely. What is that worth in terms of game checks? Vilma and the Saints did something very wrong and reckless. The repercussions of their actions have been severe. Good for them.

Jason Taylor said every team has some sort of bounty system..be it hard hits, sacks, INTs.. for dinner and drinks whatever. Taylor went on to say that some defensive players are making 2,3,4 million a season..do you really think 500-1000 dollars is going to motivate them any more or to play harder?

As far as Goodell goes I think the NFL does not want anymore dirty laundry to be aired. Still think the NFL over-reacted as do the majority of the players who play the game.

Obviously the players believe it is enough to motivate them, or they wouldn't put in the time and effort to run such a system.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Vilma needs to take his medicine. He was obviously involved even after he knew they were warned. I have no sympathy for the Saints at all. What they did was to the detriment of the game, not just at the NFL level but all the way down to Pop Warner. Kids see this and get ideas about setting up their own bounty system. Pretty soon a kid is injured severely. What is that worth in terms of game checks? Vilma and the Saints did something very wrong and reckless. The repercussions of their actions have been severe. Good for them.

Jason Taylor said every team has some sort of bounty system..be it hard hits, sacks, INTs.. for dinner and drinks whatever. Taylor went on to say that some defensive players are making 2,3,4 million a season..do you really think 500-1000 dollars is going to motivate them any more or to play harder?

As far as Goodell goes I think the NFL does not want anymore dirty laundry to be aired. Still think the NFL over-reacted as do the majority of the players who play the game.

Obviously the players believe it is enough to motivate them, or they wouldn't put in the time and effort to run such a system.

Wait, if it's about motivation remind me again why a $1000 pool amongst players for knock-out hits is wrong, but gaining around an extra $20,000 from the league for winning a playoff game when knocking out a QB or key RB or causing a key fumble when a player becomes concussed or injured (say Jay Cutler or Pierre Thomas or Kyle Williams) is ok?

 

[Da Guru]

Vilma needs to take his medicine. He was obviously involved even after he knew they were warned. I have no sympathy for the Saints at all. What they did was to the detriment of the game, not just at the NFL level but all the way down to Pop Warner. Kids see this and get ideas about setting up their own bounty system. Pretty soon a kid is injured severely. What is that worth in terms of game checks? Vilma and the Saints did something very wrong and reckless. The repercussions of their actions have been severe. Good for them.

Jason Taylor said every team has some sort of bounty system..be it hard hits, sacks, INTs.. for dinner and drinks whatever. Taylor went on to say that some defensive players are making 2,3,4 million a season..do you really think 500-1000 dollars is going to motivate them any more or to play harder?

As far as Goodell goes I think the NFL does not want anymore dirty laundry to be aired. Still think the NFL over-reacted as do the majority of the players who play the game.

Obviously the players believe it is enough to motivate them, or they wouldn't put in the time and effort to run such a system.

The Bounty system is like a Kangaroo Court in MLB.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Something may have gone down in that Vilma hearing or in chambers later....Judge Ginger Berrigan is a known liberal (don't go nuts, I'm just saying this objectively) on the EDLA bench and she's pro-labor in a state that has the worst labor laws in the union. It's just possible that the tenor of the hearing did not go like the NFL's lawyers would have liked and it's just possible there may have been another conference in chambers in which the judge let known her leanings. Plus she's a New Orleans judge in a New Orleans courtroom and people here, judges included, well let's just say passion for the Saints and city runs high in that courthouse just as it does everywhere else between the River & the Lake.Or maybe the NFL just doesn't know and they are just hedging their bets.But I believe the report and don't believe the league's denials.

Yup!Rumors confirmed!http://www.wwltv.com/sports/black-and-gold/vilmainsettlementtalkswithnfl-165187636.html>>>In a court filing Monday afternoon, Vilma's attorneys admitted they were in settlement talks, but blasted the NFL's leaks about them.“I think the only way they reach a settlement is if there's some doubt about their chance of success in the litigation, and I think Judge Berrigan put just enough doubt in their mind to make the league think twice about whether or not they want to go through with this,” said Gabe Feldman, director of the Tulane Sports Law Center.<<<

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Vilma needs to take his medicine. He was obviously involved even after he knew they were warned. I have no sympathy for the Saints at all. What they did was to the detriment of the game, not just at the NFL level but all the way down to Pop Warner. Kids see this and get ideas about setting up their own bounty system. Pretty soon a kid is injured severely. What is that worth in terms of game checks? Vilma and the Saints did something very wrong and reckless. The repercussions of their actions have been severe. Good for them.

Jason Taylor said every team has some sort of bounty system..be it hard hits, sacks, INTs.. for dinner and drinks whatever. Taylor went on to say that some defensive players are making 2,3,4 million a season..do you really think 500-1000 dollars is going to motivate them any more or to play harder?

does a 20 buck or 100 buck entry in your fantasy league motivate you to compete any harder?I'd say no, but there are a lot of people that think it adds something.

 

[fatness]

Saints' Vilma Seeks Court Probe of Settlement Talks Leak

New Orleans Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma, facing a full NFL season suspension for his alleged role in a scheme to reward players for hits that deliberately hurt opponents, asked a U.S. judge to find out who told the media about confidential litigation settlement talks.

“Vilma entered into settlement discussions with the NFL in good faith,” attorneys for the linebacker said. “Vilma is well aware of, and has absolutely complied with, his obligation to safeguard the existence and substance of all such discussions.”

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Vilma needs to take his medicine. He was obviously involved even after he knew they were warned. I have no sympathy for the Saints at all. What they did was to the detriment of the game, not just at the NFL level but all the way down to Pop Warner. Kids see this and get ideas about setting up their own bounty system. Pretty soon a kid is injured severely. What is that worth in terms of game checks? Vilma and the Saints did something very wrong and reckless. The repercussions of their actions have been severe. Good for them.

Jason Taylor said every team has some sort of bounty system..be it hard hits, sacks, INTs.. for dinner and drinks whatever. Taylor went on to say that some defensive players are making 2,3,4 million a season..do you really think 500-1000 dollars is going to motivate them any more or to play harder?

As far as Goodell goes I think the NFL does not want anymore dirty laundry to be aired. Still think the NFL over-reacted as do the majority of the players who play the game.

Obviously the players believe it is enough to motivate them, or they wouldn't put in the time and effort to run such a system.

Wait, if it's about motivation remind me again why a $1000 pool amongst players for knock-out hits is wrong, but gaining around an extra $20,000 from the league for winning a playoff game when knocking out a QB or key RB or causing a key fumble when a player becomes concussed or injured (say Jay Cutler or Pierre Thomas or Kyle Williams) is ok?

this seems like kind of a stupid question to me, but they say there are no stupid questions, so my answer would be that the league is not paying them to concuss the qb in the playoffs -- they are paying them extra if they win.you can actually win a football game by playing football, without intentionally crippling your opponent.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Goodell is a power-hungry egomaniac. This just reinforces it.

 

[Ilov80s]

I read most if thread, but not every post, so I apologize if this was addressed. How common is it for Goodell to offer significantly reduced punishments to players after his initial ruling?

 

[Godsbrother]

I don't understand why everyone tries to vilify Goodell. Maybe he simply doesn't want this civil suit to overshadow the football year. I'm not saying the opposite isn't plausible or even true, but there are too many people on this board who simply have it out for "the man" and however that manifests. It's weird to me.

I agree. What they fail to comprehend is that the players union elected to give Goodell this power. So they have nobody to whine to except themselves. They are obviously welcome to play football in another league if the agreement THEIR UNION MADE isn't acceptable to them personally. Nobody really seems to have a problem though until it impacts them or a teammate.

Incorrect. The Steelers were the only team to vote against the CBA and their objection was that appeals were decided by the same guy that made the original judgement. Too bad the Saints and other teams didn't stand up with them. Now it appears the only way to get a fair appeal is to sue the commissioner.

 

[Godsbrother]

I read most if thread, but not every post, so I apologize if this was addressed. How common is it for Goodell to offer significantly reduced punishments to players after his initial ruling?

There have been numerous cases where the commissioner suspends a player for a range of say 2-4 games and the players received the minimum of that range. I cannot recall a single case where a player suspended for a whole season had their punishment reduced.

 

[psychobillies]

I read most if thread, but not every post, so I apologize if this was addressed. How common is it for Goodell to offer significantly reduced punishments to players after his initial ruling?

There have been numerous cases where the commissioner suspends a player for a range of say 2-4 games and the players received the minimum of that range. I cannot recall a single case where a player suspended for a whole season had their punishment reduced.

I'm sure he hasn't reduced anything after he has denied them in an appeal hearing.

 

[Doug B]

Another hearing is going on right now in front of Judge Berrigan. NFL's and Vilma's lawyers prsenting arguments. Lots of Twitter updates here.

On pg 7:

Albert Breer ‏@AlbertBreer

Important to remember: Vilma getting the injunction would mean Berrigan taking the case, leads to what NFL really wants to avoid: Discovery.

 

[Doug B]

Jeff Darlington ‏@JeffDarlington

The question is no longer whether judge believes Vilma deserves injunction (she does). The question is whether she has the power to do so.

EDIT:

‏@JeffDarlington

NFL faces interesting situation once Kessler stops talking/calms down: How do you tell a woman she doesn't have power -- and win? Good luck.

 

[Doug B]

IJudge wants to rule in favor of Vilma and attorneys seem to have given her reason to do so. NFL hasn't had its at-bat tho -- JohnDeShazier (@JohnDeShazier)

JohnDeShazier is one of the New Orleans Time-Picayune's Saints' beat writers.

 

[Doug B]

Kind of a mystery tweet here ... don't know the context:

Thomas McEachin ‏@thomasmceachin

Third argument. CBA prohibits suspension for pay for performance.

Retweeted by Scott Fujita

EDIT:

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Kessler-in all other conduct detrimental cases,NFL had burden of proof & presented evidence.To extent NFL denies that, they're "making it up"

John DeShazier@JohnDeShazier

Kessler says NFL in previous conduct detrimental cases has always provided all its evidence. Not this time

Kessler is one of Vilma's attorney's, addressing Judge Berrgian here.

 

[Doug B]

NFL lawyers have been up to bat for about 40 minutes now:

Levy- commish was prepared to punish players at same time as coaches, but PA asked them to wait so could do own investigation. They never did

Superchuck500 of SR.com (post #205): The fallacy is that the PA asked to review the evidence and league refused

Ryan Jones@rjonesTP

NFL pointing to Ben Roethlisberger suspension reduction as proof that Goodell is fair/reduces suspensions after hearing players out

John DeShazier@JohnDeShazier

Roethlisberger had suspension shortened after informal conversation with commish, not an appeals hearing

Ryan Jones@rjonesTP

Levy: I accept your judgment that they did not fail to exhaust in appeals hearing. But they need to show Goodell's bias had impact

Berrigan (to Levy - db): Players stuck between rock and hard place. Forced to argue merits to Goodell without evidenceat hearing or fight his jurisdiction -- rjonesTP (@rjonesTP)

 

[Doug B]

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Levy closing by emphasizing that Judge must defer to collectively bargained process. Point of law is to keep courts out of these disputes.

Superchuck500 (post #214): The problem with the 'players agreed to this' argument IMO is that the league has conceded that the appeal was an 'arbitration'. And under the NLRA and FAA, there are minimum standards st apply - I don't think basic fairness can be waived.

 

[Doug B]

John DeShazier@JohnDeShazier

Judge wonders if "conduct detrimental" is too broad, a catch-all for commish to discipline

EDIT:

Judge: wants to know how RG thought conduct was detrimental -- wdsu (@wdsu)

Jebus ... Berrigan must have a Brees jersey under her robes. But all the same.

 

[Doug B]

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Judge to Levy-does "conduct detrimental" overridevother provisions of CBA? Levy-not for you to decide. Judge- you're making me feel powerless

Ryan Jones@rjonesTP

Berrigan: "You're making me feel very powerless over here. But I know that's your position." Levy: "Your honor I fully recognize your power"

EDIT:

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Judge again suggesting that this was pay for performance and thus not within commish's jurisdiction.

A lot of note-passing going on within NFL legal team -- rjonesTP (@rjonesTP)

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Judge-"this makes me crazy because I don't think this was fair." BUT (big but), she adds, " maybe I can't get to that."

 

[Doug B]

John DeShazier@JohnDeShazier

@garlandgillen judge wants to rule in Vilma's favor. I don't think she will, but it's clear she doesn't like"conduct detrimental"

John DeShazier@JohnDeShazier

@garlandgillen Vilma's attorney Ginsberg and NFLPA atty Kessler have been strong

Re: the bolded above ... the law is a funny place

 

[Doug B]

Kessler is one of Vilma's attorney's, addressing Judge Berrgian here.

Quoting and nit-picking myself: Kessler directly represents the NFLPA.

 

[Mello]

John DeShazier@JohnDeShazier

@garlandgillen judge wants to rule in Vilma's favor. I don't think she will, but it's clear she doesn't like"conduct detrimental"

John DeShazier@JohnDeShazier

@garlandgillen Vilma's attorney Ginsberg and NFLPA atty Kessler have been strong

Re: the bolded above ... the law is a funny place

What was the point of the hearing if she can't rule on it? If there's a dispute about the interpretation of the CBA, isn't it the job of the court to decide what is correct?

 

[Doug B]

I can't use enough superlatives to describe Jeffrey Kessler. He's something else. Almost has more arguments than he knows what to do with -- rjonesTP (@rjonesTP)

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Kessler- commish can't simply declare everything conduct detrimental and discipline for it.

 

[Doug B]

What was the point of the hearing if she can't rule on it? If there's a dispute about the interpretation of the CBA, isn't it the job of the courts to decide what is correct?

Need some attorneys like Christo or Zow or Superchuck500 (from SR.com) to field that one.Saints fans are following this very closely, but we really shouldn't get to excited. Whatever Berrigan decides (and she's likely to defer until after August 30th) will just get appealed. But I consider a win for Vilma just getting the league to discovery, and having to lay out ALL their evidence in front of a judge. Don't really care if anyone gets their suspensions reduced or overturned.

 

[Doug B]

@garlandgillen she has wondered aloud several times whether she can offer Vilma and players relief -- JohnDeShazier (@JohnDeShazier)

Also, Mello, some are opining that Berrigan hesitates to set a "CBAs are made of rice paper" precedent by ruling on this matter. Guess we'll see.

 

[Doug B]

Judge even says she's powerless here. Looks like she wants to rule in JVilma favor but may not... -- wdsu (@wdsu)

EDIT: Kessler is still trying, though:

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Kessler- NFL had absolute obligation to turn over all evidence. Mocking idea that NFL can have 1000 pages of evidence and show players none.

 

[David Dodds]

I am loving this. Fun to watch the NFL squirm.

 

[Doug B]

InThatNumber, an attorney member of SR.com (post 258):

At this point I wouldn't expect her to rule from the bench. She's clearly concerned about her authority. I expect her to take it under advisement to give her clerks one more chance to find solid legal grounds for her to act on. She could still rule by the end of the day, but she'll want to carefully craft her opinion I would think.

...

EDIT:

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Judge actually chuckled when Kessler suggested league seems to think they could compile evidence and not turn it over to players

 

[Mello]

Thanks for passing on what you know. I wasn't aware the NFL was being forced to show their evidence against Vilma. That's definitely a positive step.

Personally, even though I'm hardly a Saints fan, I just want to see Goodell put in his place for once.

 

[Doug B]

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

Ginsberg-Vilma learned of susp from ESPN. Can't be proper procedure. (Not clear if he's suggesting different network should've had scoop)

EDIT:

Ginsberg (Vilma's attorney): "We're not challenging CBA or Goodell's power. We're challenging a unique derailment of that system." ...hmmm. -- JeffDarlington (@JeffDarlington)

 

[Doug B]

John DeShazier@JohnDeShazier

Judge again questions whether she can do anything before Aug. 30 hearing

Said she has to go back to drawing board -- JohnDeShazier (@JohnDeShazier)

EDIT:

Gabe Feldman@SportsLawGuy

No ruling from judge. Urges parties to talk because she will need time to decide. Settlement may be faster than her decision.

Donald Chick Foret ‏@chickforet

Strongly urges settlement discussions which she confirmed had been taking place..how will nfl spin this disclosure by Judge

Chick Foret is a New Orleans area attorney that local media consults on these kinds of matters.

 

[Doug B]

InThatNumber, an attorney member of SR.com (post 310):

As I said above, I don't think this necessarily means she won't rule until August 30, just that she wants to have her clerks dig into it more before she rules.

Even without a ruling, today was a huge victory for Vilma. There's now a federal court that has commented on Goodell's process as unfair and harshly criticized both the process and the result. The media loves a sensational story, and that certainly gives them something to write about. If the result (for now) is that the courts recognize Vilma is getting screwed but that they have to wait 3 weeks to give him relief, imagine what that will do to public opinion.

Also, there is HUGE pressure on the NFL now to settle, and on the Appeals Panel to seriously question whether it wants to just blindly uphold the suspension. If the NFL lets this get back to the Judge after August 30 (assuming no ruling before then), they know to almost a certainty that there will be precedent handed down condemning the CBA's process and remarking on Goodell's evident partiality/bias. The NFL wants (needs!) to avoid that.

EDIT: Post 317:

... Imagine being the law clerk back in chambers right now when she says, "OK, I've stated on the record how I want to rule, I've been called powerless, and now it's your job to go find me a way to show that I'm not a potted plant." My butt is staying glued to Westlaw all night and all weekend until I find the right case law.

 

[Doug B]

Did FBGs know that the league just created an Appeals Panel (independent of the Commissioner)? They will rule on some of this stuff by or on August 30th. Berrigan likely deferring any ruling she'd make until after the 30th.

 

[Doug B]

InThatNumber again (post 323):

Originally Posted by BigA3723

Why would she repeatedly say out loud that she doesn't know if she can rule in Vilmas favor legally unless she was trying to send a message to him to settle with NFL eventhough she clearly feels in his favor, she legally can't rule in his favor no matter how much she wants to. The no rule is like allowing more time for a settlement to happen. At least that is how I see it.

What she was saying is that she can't rule in his favor until the appeal is resolved on (or shortly after) August 30. Once the appeal is resolved it seems like she recognizes that she has inherent authority under the FAA to vacate an arbitration award that does not adhere to the minimal requirements, and that she believes this award falls short of those requirements. Basically, she thinks she has to give the arbitration appeal panel a chance to correct the mistake before she steps in and does it for them.

 

[Doug B]

Thanks for passing on what you know. I wasn't aware the NFL was being forced to show their evidence against Vilma. That's definitely a positive step.

Personally, even though I'm hardly a Saints fan, I just want to see Goodell put in his place for once.

Not yet on the bolded. Lots of legal ground to cover yet.And there are multiple decisions at play, too, not just one. At minimum:

a) Can Vilma get his suspension enjoined?

But also:

b) Can Vilma's camp proceed with the defamation suit against the person of Roger Goodell? Or can Goodell get the defamation suit dismissed summarily?

The dfamation suit is where any discovery would take place. Other issues at play are things like "how some fine points -- or even undefined points -- of the CBA should be interpreted" and "the fundamental fairness of the CBA's remedies as written".

 

[Mello]

Thanks Doug

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Thanks, indeed. Nice twitter links. Gotta love the new age reports right from the hearing.

Roger, welcome to New Orleans.

We been at this a long time.

 

[Doug B]

Lots of talk, too, about the inevitable appeal(s) to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, and how the 5th would basically serve as a puppet for the league due to their strong pro-employer track record

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Lots of talk, too, about the inevitable appeal(s) to the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, and how the 5th would basically serve as a puppet for the league due to their strong pro-employer track record

Well that should have been true in the USDC too.