Nolan Ryan once threw 235 pitches in a game (1 Viewer)

[Raider Nation]

In fact...

In an 11-week span in 1974, Ryan threw 150 pitches (a two-hitter with eight walks and 11 strikeouts), 172 pitches (19 strikeouts), 184 pitches (an 11-inning, 1-0 loss to Mickey Lolich in which both pitchers threw complete games) and—hang on to your clickers—235 pitches (a 13-inning effort against Luis Tiant, who took a complete game loss in the 15th inning). Ryan pitched for 27 seasons and started more games than any other pitcher except Cy Young.

Think about that next time you see a pitcher being BABIED. It's disgusting."OH MY GOD... he's thrown 100 pitches! Sure, he's throwing a shutout, but we have to get him out of there!!!"



I can't be 100% sure about this, but I don't ever remember Ryan having arm problems. It's called "perfect mechanics." And don't even get me started about Satchel Paige pitching both ends of a doubleheader (uphill BOTH ways, in the snow!)

Bunch of sissies today!

 

[boom king]

they didnt pitch uphill ########

 

[Raider Nation]

they didnt pitch uphill ########

ARE YOU CERTAIN???

 

[PatriotJohn]

In fact...

In an 11-week span in 1974, Ryan threw 150 pitches (a two-hitter with eight walks and 11 strikeouts), 172 pitches (19 strikeouts), 184 pitches (an 11-inning, 1-0 loss to Mickey Lolich in which both pitchers threw complete games) and—hang on to your clickers—235 pitches (a 13-inning effort against Luis Tiant, who took a complete game loss in the 15th inning). Ryan pitched for 27 seasons and started more games than any other pitcher except Cy Young.

Think about that next time you see a pitcher being BABIED. It's disgusting."OH MY GOD... he's thrown 100 pitches! Sure, he's throwing a shutout, but we have to get him out of there!!!"



I can't be 100% sure about this, but I don't ever remember Ryan having arm problems. It's called "perfect mechanics." And don't even get me started about Satchel Paige pitching both ends of a doubleheader (uphill BOTH ways, in the snow!)

Bunch of sissies today!

Boxscore from said game

235 pitches sounds about right....and that doesn't even count warm up pitches before the game and between innings. Incredible!

 

[Raider Nation]

Boxscore from said game

Cecil Cooper was 0-8 with 6 Ks. Ryan was such a stud.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I thought the ESPN article earlier this year about Ryan and the Texas pitching staff was pretty good. He's definitely of the opinion that many of the arm problems today are caused by the excessive coddling of young pitchers.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I have an Uncle that is 103 years old and has smoked at least 2 packs a day since he's a teenager. He backs it up with a few fifths of Jack a week and he's buried 4 doctors. His anomaly of a life shouldn't be a blueprint for us all. I think Ryan proved to be a physical freak with good genes and a great work ethic beyond these games and did things we've never seen anyone do.

We have one Nolan Ryan, I'd be we could literally fill a stadium with guys who didn't achieve their potential due to overwork and abuse.

 

[Tau837]

Off topic, but my favorite Ryan moment was when he beat the crap out of Robin Ventura after hitting Ventura with a pitch.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Off topic, but my favorite Ryan moment was when he beat the crap out of Robin Ventura after hitting Ventura with a pitch.

I'm going with K'ing Robbie Alomar for the 7th no-no. The 6th was unbelievable enough against a pretty tough A's team but I remember ESPN going live with coverage for that, and that was just super satisfying.

 

[whoknew]

What a stupid thread.

Nolan was awesome, though. Though generally overrated.

 

[rascal]

What a stupid thread.Nolan was awesome, though. Though generally overrated.

nominated for dumbest comment of the year.

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

I'd be we could literally fill a stadium with guys who didn't achieve their potential due to overwork and abuse.

Koufax and Drysdale were through by their early 30's.Fernando Valenzuela, Bob Feller and Denny McClain, were mediocre by then.Eckersley was through as a starter barely in his 30's.

 

[Raider Nation]

Nolan was awesome, though. Though generally overrated.

nominated for dumbest comment of the year.

Sadly, many agree.

 

[the moops]

In fact...

In an 11-week span in 1974, Ryan threw 150 pitches (a two-hitter with eight walks and 11 strikeouts), 172 pitches (19 strikeouts), 184 pitches (an 11-inning, 1-0 loss to Mickey Lolich in which both pitchers threw complete games) and—hang on to your clickers—235 pitches (a 13-inning effort against Luis Tiant, who took a complete game loss in the 15th inning). Ryan pitched for 27 seasons and started more games than any other pitcher except Cy Young.

Think about that next time you see a pitcher being BABIED. It's disgusting."OH MY GOD... he's thrown 100 pitches! Sure, he's throwing a shutout, but we have to get him out of there!!!"



I can't be 100% sure about this, but I don't ever remember Ryan having arm problems. It's called "perfect mechanics." And don't even get me started about Satchel Paige pitching both ends of a doubleheader (uphill BOTH ways, in the snow!)

Bunch of sissies today!

Boxscore from said game

235 pitches sounds about right....and that doesn't even count warm up pitches before the game and between innings. Incredible!

You mean to tell us that they dont include warmup pitches in the official pitch count? Who knew.

 

[whoknew]

Nolan was awesome, though. Though generally overrated.

nominated for dumbest comment of the year.

Sadly, many agree.

It's true. He was great but its not like he was Maddux or Clemens or something.

 

[trogg78]

Lets make the exception the norm so everyone can be a failure. YEAH!

 

[Exit 1]

They said that Mark Prior had perfect mechanics too.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I think they should include throws to first, and maybe when they throw it to the ump for a new ball.

 

[oso diablo]

Off topic, but my favorite Ryan moment was when he beat the crap out of Robin Ventura after hitting Ventura with a pitch.

never off-topic

 

[Darth Cheney]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

 

[Trump]

Boxscore from said game

Cecil Cooper was 0-8 with 6 Ks. Ryan was such a stud.

Cooper was essentially a rookie that year...and that game accounted for 8% of his strikeout total for the season.

What a stupid thread.

Nolan was awesome, though. Though generally overrated.

nominated for dumbest comment of the year.

absolutely

 

[Dr. No]

how is it that 100 pitches in a game and we're considering pulling them out, but Federer and Nadal can serve 100-150 times in a match every other day for 2 weeks without their arms falling off?

 

[Vladislav Tretiak]

It's because of this pitch count that pitchers aren't trained to be pitchers.

Blyleven said it best.

In his day you threw 8, 9, 10, or 11 innings.

You rested a day

Soft toss a day

Long toss for a day

Pitch again

All the working out in the weight room isn't making better pitchers. Just better in shape ones with weaker arms.

 

[Vladislav Tretiak]

I'd be we could literally fill a stadium with guys who didn't achieve their potential due to overwork and abuse.

Koufax and Drysdale were through by their early 30's.Fernando Valenzuela, Bob Feller and Denny McClain, were mediocre by then.Eckersley was through as a starter barely in his 30's.

Koufax?His career was over but not due to pitching all those innings.You certainly aren't your name are you?

 

[Vladislav Tretiak]

I'd be we could literally fill a stadium with guys who didn't achieve their potential due to overwork and abuse.

Koufax and Drysdale were through by their early 30's.Fernando Valenzuela, Bob Feller and Denny McClain, were mediocre by then.Eckersley was through as a starter barely in his 30's.

Who was McClain pitching for in his 30s?

 

[Vladislav Tretiak]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

Okay...pick a year he should have won a Cy Young Award

 

[Darth Cheney]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

Okay...pick a year he should have won a Cy Young Award

I wasn't particularly speaking of any particular year...just the idea that a guy who was voted in the HOF on 491 out of 497 ballots didn't win any awards. But, if you want to look at the numbers... it wouldn't have been a travesty if he won in either 73 or 77.

 

[Trump]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

Okay...pick a year he should have won a Cy Young Award

1973.

2 No Hitters.

21 wins on a sub .500 team. (Jim Palmer - the winner won one more game for a team that won 97 games)

26 complete games in 39 starts. (326 innings pitched - there are 351 in 39 nine inning affairs)

Set a post-1900 Major League Baseball record for most strikeouts in a season with 383.

2.87 ERA

4 shut-outs and 1 save.

 

[dparker713]

Nolan was awesome, though. Though generally overrated.

nominated for dumbest comment of the year.

Sadly, many agree.

The guy was a very good pitcher with dominating stuff. He was able to focus and battle with amazing results for no-hitters. He is not, however, one of the best pitchers of all time as many seem to regard him. Guy walked the ballpark. His stikeouts compensated, but he's often overrated.

 

[Tau837]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

Okay...pick a year he should have won a Cy Young Award

1973.

2 No Hitters.

21 wins on a sub .500 team. (Jim Palmer - the winner won one more game for a team that won 97 games)

26 complete games in 39 starts. (326 innings pitched - there are 351 in 39 nine inning affairs)

Set a post-1900 Major League Baseball record for most strikeouts in a season with 383.

2.87 ERA

4 shut-outs and 1 save.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

Okay...pick a year he should have won a Cy Young Award

1973.

2 No Hitters.

21 wins on a sub .500 team. (Jim Palmer - the winner won one more game for a team that won 97 games)

26 complete games in 39 starts. (326 innings pitched - there are 351 in 39 nine inning affairs)

Set a post-1900 Major League Baseball record for most strikeouts in a season with 383.

2.87 ERA

4 shut-outs and 1 save.

It went to Jim Palmer for the first place O's, in what must have been East Coast bias rearing its head, that is a strange one that Nolan didn't take that year.

 

[Vladislav Tretiak]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

Okay...pick a year he should have won a Cy Young Award

I wasn't particularly speaking of any particular year...just the idea that a guy who was voted in the HOF on 491 out of 497 ballots didn't win any awards. But, if you want to look at the numbers... it wouldn't have been a travesty if he won in either 73 or 77.

1973? Cy Young award winner don't lose 16 games and don't walk 162 batters AND Jim Palmer was a better choice. 1977? Cy Young award winners don't lose 16 games (again) and don't walk 204 batters. Sorry but 204 BBs isn't getting a Cy Young

 

[oso diablo]

1973? Cy Young award winner don't lose 16 games and don't walk 162 batters AND Jim Palmer was a better choice.

1977? Cy Young award winners don't lose 16 games (again) and don't walk 204 batters. Sorry but 204 BBs isn't getting a Cy Young

why can't the league's best pitcher lose a lot of games be the pitcher of record in games his team loses? Aren't we ready to move past this overly simplistic and misleading metric?P.S. On a related note, in reviewing Ryan's stats, i saw that he led the league in WHIP when he was 43 and 44 years old. Remarkable for any pitcher, but downright amazing for a guy who used to walk so many guys.

 

[Darth Cheney]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

Okay...pick a year he should have won a Cy Young Award

I wasn't particularly speaking of any particular year...just the idea that a guy who was voted in the HOF on 491 out of 497 ballots didn't win any awards. But, if you want to look at the numbers... it wouldn't have been a travesty if he won in either 73 or 77.

1973? Cy Young award winner don't lose 16 games and don't walk 162 batters AND Jim Palmer was a better choice. 1977? Cy Young award winners don't lose 16 games (again) and don't walk 204 batters. Sorry but 204 BBs isn't getting a Cy Young

Why? Cause Palmer had less losses for a much better team? Ryan's WAR was almost 2 points higher and he was in the ballpark in ERA's (2.40 to 2.87) and WHIP (1.14 to 1.227). Ryan had a batter H/9 (6.6 to 6.8) and K/9 (10.6 to 4.8). It could have gone either way.

 

[dparker713]

I can't believe he's never won a Cy Young.

Okay...pick a year he should have won a Cy Young Award

I wasn't particularly speaking of any particular year...just the idea that a guy who was voted in the HOF on 491 out of 497 ballots didn't win any awards. But, if you want to look at the numbers... it wouldn't have been a travesty if he won in either 73 or 77.

1973? Cy Young award winner don't lose 16 games and don't walk 162 batters AND Jim Palmer was a better choice. 1977? Cy Young award winners don't lose 16 games (again) and don't walk 204 batters. Sorry but 204 BBs isn't getting a Cy Young

Why? Cause Palmer had less losses for a much better team? Ryan's WAR was almost 2 points higher and he was in the ballpark in ERA's (2.40 to 2.87) and WHIP (1.14 to 1.227). Ryan had a batter H/9 (6.6 to 6.8) and K/9 (10.6 to 4.8). It could have gone either way.

Guy has a legit case for 2 Cy Young awards. Only 2. Yet he had a nearly unanimous vote into the HoF. He wasn't one of the best pitchers of his era. He was a good pitcher for a very long time with a few great years. He's severely overrated because of the strikeouts.

 

[This_Guy]

1973? Cy Young award winner don't lose 16 games and don't walk 162 batters AND Jim Palmer was a better choice. 1977? Cy Young award winners don't lose 16 games (again) and don't walk 204 batters. Sorry but 204 BBs isn't getting a Cy Young

Why? Cause Palmer had less losses for a much better team? Ryan's WAR was almost 2 points higher and he was in the ballpark in ERA's (2.40 to 2.87) and WHIP (1.14 to 1.227). Ryan had a batter H/9 (6.6 to 6.8) and K/9 (10.6 to 4.8). It could have gone either way.

Guy has a legit case for 2 Cy Young awards. Only 2. Yet he had a nearly unanimous vote into the HoF. He wasn't one of the best pitchers of his era. He was a good pitcher for a very long time with a few great years. He's severely overrated because of the strikeouts.

The guy threw 7 no-hitters in his career. There is certainly some luck involved in throwing a no-hitter but to do it 7 times you've got to be pretty good. Only Koufax threw more than half that many in his career. And he has the most 1 hit games in a career. And he had 24 no hitters broken up in the 7th inning or later. Next person on that list Randy Johnson with 11.You make it out like he was a stat accumulator because of his longevity. He was but he was also a pretty good pitcher late into his career.He had a 2.91 ERA in 173 innings 2 years before he retired with a WHIP of 1.006. He had a 2.76 ERA 20 years into his career. The fact that he was able to pitch for 27 seasons and still be good late in his career strengthens the case of how good he was. For the most part guys aren't retiring because they want to do something else, they retire because they can't do it any more. Ryan was able to keep doing it through his entire career.Also to VTs point. Gaylord Perry had 16 losses as the 1972 Cy Young winner.

 

[whoknew]

1973? Cy Young award winner don't lose 16 games and don't walk 162 batters AND Jim Palmer was a better choice. 1977? Cy Young award winners don't lose 16 games (again) and don't walk 204 batters. Sorry but 204 BBs isn't getting a Cy Young

Why? Cause Palmer had less losses for a much better team? Ryan's WAR was almost 2 points higher and he was in the ballpark in ERA's (2.40 to 2.87) and WHIP (1.14 to 1.227). Ryan had a batter H/9 (6.6 to 6.8) and K/9 (10.6 to 4.8). It could have gone either way.

Guy has a legit case for 2 Cy Young awards. Only 2. Yet he had a nearly unanimous vote into the HoF. He wasn't one of the best pitchers of his era. He was a good pitcher for a very long time with a few great years. He's severely overrated because of the strikeouts.

The guy threw 7 no-hitters in his career. There is certainly some luck involved in throwing a no-hitter but to do it 7 times you've got to be pretty good. Only Koufax threw more than half that many in his career. And he has the most 1 hit games in a career. And he had 24 no hitters broken up in the 7th inning or later. Next person on that list Randy Johnson with 11.You make it out like he was a stat accumulator because of his longevity. He was but he was also a pretty good pitcher late into his career.He had a 2.91 ERA in 173 innings 2 years before he retired with a WHIP of 1.006. He had a 2.76 ERA 20 years into his career. The fact that he was able to pitch for 27 seasons and still be good late in his career strengthens the case of how good he was. For the most part guys aren't retiring because they want to do something else, they retire because they can't do it any more. Ryan was able to keep doing it through his entire career.Also to VTs point. Gaylord Perry had 16 losses as the 1972 Cy Young winner.

Nobody is arguing that Ryan wasn't great. He was.He's just not on the super elite tier of pitchers. He's at the level right below that. No shame in that.

 

[Darth Cheney]

1973? Cy Young award winner don't lose 16 games and don't walk 162 batters AND Jim Palmer was a better choice. 1977? Cy Young award winners don't lose 16 games (again) and don't walk 204 batters. Sorry but 204 BBs isn't getting a Cy Young

Why? Cause Palmer had less losses for a much better team? Ryan's WAR was almost 2 points higher and he was in the ballpark in ERA's (2.40 to 2.87) and WHIP (1.14 to 1.227). Ryan had a batter H/9 (6.6 to 6.8) and K/9 (10.6 to 4.8). It could have gone either way.

Guy has a legit case for 2 Cy Young awards. Only 2. Yet he had a nearly unanimous vote into the HoF. He wasn't one of the best pitchers of his era. He was a good pitcher for a very long time with a few great years. He's severely overrated because of the strikeouts.

The guy threw 7 no-hitters in his career. There is certainly some luck involved in throwing a no-hitter but to do it 7 times you've got to be pretty good. Only Koufax threw more than half that many in his career. And he has the most 1 hit games in a career. And he had 24 no hitters broken up in the 7th inning or later. Next person on that list Randy Johnson with 11.You make it out like he was a stat accumulator because of his longevity. He was but he was also a pretty good pitcher late into his career.He had a 2.91 ERA in 173 innings 2 years before he retired with a WHIP of 1.006. He had a 2.76 ERA 20 years into his career. The fact that he was able to pitch for 27 seasons and still be good late in his career strengthens the case of how good he was. For the most part guys aren't retiring because they want to do something else, they retire because they can't do it any more. Ryan was able to keep doing it through his entire career.Also to VTs point. Gaylord Perry had 16 losses as the 1972 Cy Young winner.

Nobody is arguing that Ryan wasn't great. He was.He's just not on the super elite tier of pitchers. He's at the level right below that. No shame in that.

Where would you rank him in his era?

 

[TobiasFunke]

On the original topic, because any time there's a reason to go back and read old Fire Joe Morgan stuff you have to take it, here's a great takedown of an anti-pitch count guy.

God, I miss those guys.

 

[Trump]

Where would you rank him in his era?

What was "his" era? He started with Seaver, Jenkins and Palmer ...pitched against Gooden, Viola and Morris and finished against Clemens, Maddux and Pedro....

 

[Smack Tripper]

1973? Cy Young award winner don't lose 16 games and don't walk 162 batters AND Jim Palmer was a better choice. 1977? Cy Young award winners don't lose 16 games (again) and don't walk 204 batters. Sorry but 204 BBs isn't getting a Cy Young

Why? Cause Palmer had less losses for a much better team? Ryan's WAR was almost 2 points higher and he was in the ballpark in ERA's (2.40 to 2.87) and WHIP (1.14 to 1.227). Ryan had a batter H/9 (6.6 to 6.8) and K/9 (10.6 to 4.8). It could have gone either way.

Guy has a legit case for 2 Cy Young awards. Only 2. Yet he had a nearly unanimous vote into the HoF. He wasn't one of the best pitchers of his era. He was a good pitcher for a very long time with a few great years. He's severely overrated because of the strikeouts.

The guy threw 7 no-hitters in his career. There is certainly some luck involved in throwing a no-hitter but to do it 7 times you've got to be pretty good. Only Koufax threw more than half that many in his career. And he has the most 1 hit games in a career. And he had 24 no hitters broken up in the 7th inning or later. Next person on that list Randy Johnson with 11.You make it out like he was a stat accumulator because of his longevity. He was but he was also a pretty good pitcher late into his career.He had a 2.91 ERA in 173 innings 2 years before he retired with a WHIP of 1.006. He had a 2.76 ERA 20 years into his career. The fact that he was able to pitch for 27 seasons and still be good late in his career strengthens the case of how good he was. For the most part guys aren't retiring because they want to do something else, they retire because they can't do it any more. Ryan was able to keep doing it through his entire career.Also to VTs point. Gaylord Perry had 16 losses as the 1972 Cy Young winner.

Nobody is arguing that Ryan wasn't great. He was.He's just not on the super elite tier of pitchers. He's at the level right below that. No shame in that.

Ok, I'm starting with the begining of Ryans career, to today, to define, his era. Seems as reasonable a yardstick as any:1. Maddux2. Seaver3. Randy Johnson4. Steve Carlton5. Pedro6. Ryan7. Palmer8. Glavine9. Clemens(throwing out his late career spike due to roids)10. Catfish11. FergieI think that's pretty reasonable company to be in. I think you could flip him and Pedro, making him a very much borderline top 5 guy in the last 40 plus years.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Where would you rank him in his era?

What was "his" era? He started with Seaver, Jenkins and Palmer ...pitched against Gooden, Viola and Morris and finished against Clemens, Maddux and Pedro....

For arguments sake...let's say 1970 to 1990. That would give you the best years of Carlton, Seaver, Sutton, Perry but wouldn't bump into Pedro and Maddux.

 

[Trump]

Ok, I'm starting with the begining of Ryans career, to today, to define, his era. Seems as reasonable a yardstick as any:1. Maddux2. Seaver3. Randy Johnson4. Steve Carlton 5. Pedro6. Ryan7. Palmer8. Glavine9. Clemens(throwing out his late career spike due to roids)10. Catfish11. FergieI think that's pretty reasonable company to be in. I think you could flip him and Pedro, making him a very much borderline top 5 guy in the last 40 plus years.

Fun list. The only arguments I would make would be to drop Glavine down to 10 on that list and perhaps drop Clemens off of it based on the fact he was good, not great prior to roiding. Some names that could justifiably crawl into the list...Curt Schilling, Wilbur Wood, Fernando Valenzuela, Jimmy Key (Look at his post season record vs. Glavine), and even a guy like Bret Saberhagen or Dave Stieb who are really under the radar kind of guys.

 

[dparker713]

Ok, I'm starting with the begining of Ryans career, to today, to define, his era. Seems as reasonable a yardstick as any:1. Maddux2. Seaver3. Randy Johnson4. Steve Carlton 5. Pedro6. Ryan7. Palmer8. Glavine9. Clemens(throwing out his late career spike due to roids)10. Catfish11. FergieI think that's pretty reasonable company to be in. I think you could flip him and Pedro, making him a very much borderline top 5 guy in the last 40 plus years.

Fun list. The only arguments I would make would be to drop Glavine down to 10 on that list and perhaps drop Clemens off of it based on the fact he was good, not great prior to roiding. Some names that could justifiably crawl into the list...Curt Schilling, Wilbur Wood, Fernando Valenzuela, Jimmy Key (Look at his post season record vs. Glavine), and even a guy like Bret Saberhagen or Dave Stieb who are really under the radar kind of guys.

That list is poor both in terms of order and members. Fergie Jenkins instead of Blyleven? Catfish Hunter over 30 other guys?

 

[oso diablo]

perhaps drop Clemens off of it based on the fact he was good, not great prior to roiding.

when did he start roiding? from 86-98, Clemens was Top 5 in Adjusted ERA+ a whopping 11 times, and finished first 7 times. That's pretty great.

 

[Trump]

perhaps drop Clemens off of it based on the fact he was good, not great prior to roiding.

when did he start roiding? from 86-98, Clemens was Top 5 in Adjusted ERA+ a whopping 11 times, and finished first 7 times. That's pretty great.

"For various reasons, Clemens became merely mortal over the next four seasons (1993-1996). He spent two stints on the DL in 1993 and finished with a losing record for the first time, with a bloated 4.46 ERA. He bounced back somewhat in the strike-shortened 1994 season, ranking second in the league in ERA and strikeouts with five 10-strikeout performances during the season, but the Sox were fading as a power and Clemens failed to get adequate run support. The downward career trend continued in 1995 when he started the season on the DL. He managed to win 10 games, but once again saw his ERA balloon to 4.18.It seemed on the surface that Clemens' career was ending when he went only 10-13 in 1996."I'd say about then...

 

[Smack Tripper]

Ok, I'm starting with the begining of Ryans career, to today, to define, his era. Seems as reasonable a yardstick as any:1. Maddux2. Seaver3. Randy Johnson4. Steve Carlton 5. Pedro6. Ryan7. Palmer8. Glavine9. Clemens(throwing out his late career spike due to roids)10. Catfish11. FergieI think that's pretty reasonable company to be in. I think you could flip him and Pedro, making him a very much borderline top 5 guy in the last 40 plus years.

Fun list. The only arguments I would make would be to drop Glavine down to 10 on that list and perhaps drop Clemens off of it based on the fact he was good, not great prior to roiding. Some names that could justifiably crawl into the list...Curt Schilling, Wilbur Wood, Fernando Valenzuela, Jimmy Key (Look at his post season record vs. Glavine), and even a guy like Bret Saberhagen or Dave Stieb who are really under the radar kind of guys.

That list is poor both in terms of order and members. Fergie Jenkins instead of Blyleven? Catfish Hunter over 30 other guys?

I did consider Sabes, but unfortunately, his cumulative track record didn't warrant inclusion with these guys I thought. But if I had one game where I knew a pitcher had his best stuff, to win, I put Sabes on that list. He was nasty when he was right. I"m a big Key mark, but I'm most familiar with him from his Yankee run so I didn't want to be homer considering him. Again, I don't know if he had enough sustained excellence to be part of this discussion but I enjoyed watching no pitcher pitch more in my life than him. A true artist. And dpark, I may have erred in Catfish in retrospect, the totality of his resume may be lacking, but the guy was a money pitcher on a lot of winners. If you don't like the list, take a stab at it.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Ok, I'm starting with the begining of Ryans career, to today, to define, his era. Seems as reasonable a yardstick as any:1. Maddux2. Seaver3. Randy Johnson4. Steve Carlton 5. Pedro6. Ryan7. Palmer8. Glavine9. Clemens(throwing out his late career spike due to roids)10. Catfish11. FergieI think that's pretty reasonable company to be in. I think you could flip him and Pedro, making him a very much borderline top 5 guy in the last 40 plus years.

Fun list. The only arguments I would make would be to drop Glavine down to 10 on that list and perhaps drop Clemens off of it based on the fact he was good, not great prior to roiding. Some names that could justifiably crawl into the list...Curt Schilling, Wilbur Wood, Fernando Valenzuela, Jimmy Key (Look at his post season record vs. Glavine), and even a guy like Bret Saberhagen or Dave Stieb who are really under the radar kind of guys.

That list is poor both in terms of order and members. Fergie Jenkins instead of Blyleven? Catfish Hunter over 30 other guys?

I did consider Sabes, but unfortunately, his cumulative track record didn't warrant inclusion with these guys I thought. But if I had one game where I knew a pitcher had his best stuff, to win, I put Sabes on that list. He was nasty when he was right. I"m a big Key mark, but I'm most familiar with him from his Yankee run so I didn't want to be homer considering him. Again, I don't know if he had enough sustained excellence to be part of this discussion but I enjoyed watching no pitcher pitch more in my life than him. A true artist. And dpark, I may have erred in Catfish in retrospect, the totality of his resume may be lacking, but the guy was a money pitcher on a lot of winners. If you don't like the list, take a stab at it.

Better than Ryan during his heyday?No particular order...CarltonSeaver PalmerJenkinsI think Ryan is a notch below with pitchers such as Perry, Catfish Hunter and Blyleven and above pitchers such as Don Sutton and Phil Niekro.Maddux (6 shared years and two Cy Youngs) and Clemens ( 9 shared years and three Cy Youngs) are both better pitchers....but I don't think they are considered his era. Pedro was in the league for one year with Ryan. Randy Johnson wasn't his dominant self during those few years he pitched against him....although I think both of these two are better pitchers.

 

[the moops]

He bounced back somewhat in the strike-shortened 1994 season, ranking second in the league in ERA and strikeouts with five 10-strikeout performances during the season

I love the "bounced back somewhat" line.