Obama: Worst President Ever? (1 Viewer)

[Fennis]

Reagan

Why? Sounds like a Rolo Tomassi vote (Rolo Tomassi, in L.A. Confidential, is the mythical character that always "gets away with it"). But this would be kind of like if I voted for B. Clinton as the worst. I mean, if you're coming from the left, you've got Nixon, GWB, GHWB, etc.

I grew up in the Reagan 80's. There is nothing during that time that I thought he was the best POTUS in my lifetime. There still isn't one.

I thought we were voting on worst, though. Regardless, won't push too hard if he's your least favorite. Nobody agrees with me about the Elder Bush.

Worst is subjective. Although GWB takes the cake here, even though in my lifetime that should go to Nixon, but I was too young to really judge that.

Seeing Reagan on the stand not recalling anything about Iran-Contra is one of the low points in American history.

That was awful, but Clinton perjuring himself and Gore asking someone to define what the "is is" is pretty damn bad if we're getting historical. Or, what the hell did Gore do during that trial? Something ridiculous.

The difference is people died during Iran-Contra.

Who died during Iran-Contra? How did our government cause them to die? Or are you simply referring to our support of the Contras against Nicaragua?

You know better than this.

link?

 

[jon_mx]

Reagan

All you have to do to know why: just read any jon-mx. That's how bad Reagan was.

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

 

[timschochet]

Reagan

Why? Sounds like a Rolo Tomassi vote (Rolo Tomassi, in L.A. Confidential, is the mythical character that always "gets away with it"). But this would be kind of like if I voted for B. Clinton as the worst. I mean, if you're coming from the left, you've got Nixon, GWB, GHWB, etc.

I grew up in the Reagan 80's. There is nothing during that time that I thought he was the best POTUS in my lifetime. There still isn't one.

I thought we were voting on worst, though. Regardless, won't push too hard if he's your least favorite. Nobody agrees with me about the Elder Bush.

Worst is subjective. Although GWB takes the cake here, even though in my lifetime that should go to Nixon, but I was too young to really judge that.

Seeing Reagan on the stand not recalling anything about Iran-Contra is one of the low points in American history.

That was awful, but Clinton perjuring himself and Gore asking someone to define what the "is is" is pretty damn bad if we're getting historical. Or, what the hell did Gore do during that trial? Something ridiculous.

The difference is people died during Iran-Contra.

Who died during Iran-Contra? How did our government cause them to die? Or are you simply referring to our support of the Contras against Nicaragua?

You know better than this.

Honestly I don't. Iran Contra was a stupid, clumsy affair, but I'm not aware of a lot of people dying because of it.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Obama is the most polarizing president of my lifetime. Constantly playing the blame game. I have a hatred for government as a whole, but I have never seen so much disagreement and vitriol between the two parties. And Obama is the enzyme that creates much of it. He is a ####### jack wagon.

While Obama is very thin-skinned (imagine if he got ripped by the press as much as Bush did!), there is plenty of blame to go around. The GOP are just as big a problem as the Dems are when it comes to how polarized the country is now.

 

[drummer]

Reagan

Why? Sounds like a Rolo Tomassi vote (Rolo Tomassi, in L.A. Confidential, is the mythical character that always "gets away with it"). But this would be kind of like if I voted for B. Clinton as the worst. I mean, if you're coming from the left, you've got Nixon, GWB, GHWB, etc.

I grew up in the Reagan 80's. There is nothing during that time that I thought he was the best POTUS in my lifetime. There still isn't one.

I thought we were voting on worst, though. Regardless, won't push too hard if he's your least favorite. Nobody agrees with me about the Elder Bush.

Worst is subjective. Although GWB takes the cake here, even though in my lifetime that should go to Nixon, but I was too young to really judge that.

Seeing Reagan on the stand not recalling anything about Iran-Contra is one of the low points in American history.

That was awful, but Clinton perjuring himself and Gore asking someone to define what the "is is" is pretty damn bad if we're getting historical. Or, what the hell did Gore do during that trial? Something ridiculous.

The difference is people died during Iran-Contra.

Who died during Iran-Contra? How did our government cause them to die? Or are you simply referring to our support of the Contras against Nicaragua?

You know better than this.

Honestly I don't. Iran Contra was a stupid, clumsy affair, but I'm not aware of a lot of people dying because of it.

Yeah well take a trip to Central America. The ask how nobody died there.

 

[jon_mx]

Yeah well take a trip to Central America.

Mexico, Central America, and South America suck because of Reagan?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

Exactly. Most knowledgeable scholars and historians rate Reagan as one of the 5-10 best presidents ever, and it's always amusing when a tiny portion of extreme left wingers try to say he sucked, when history is already saying otherwise.

 

[poopdawg]

Obama is the most polarizing president of my lifetime. Constantly playing the blame game. I have a hatred for government as a whole, but I have never seen so much disagreement and vitriol between the two parties. And Obama is the enzyme that creates much of it. He is a ####### jack wagon.

So you believe that Obama is the one responsible for polarized politics? Are you suggesting that conservatives would be willing to work with Obama if he were only to offer a little compromise?

Absolutely. He is a stubborn piece of ####. He is more worried about his ego than anything. I'm not saying that conservatives are perfect or that they don't play politics, but this president has done more to divide this country than any president in my lifetime (or any president for that matter).

 

[drummer]

Yeah well take a trip to Central America.

Mexico, Central America, and South America suck because of Reagan?

Not as much as you do.

 

[NREC34]

Sorry about that rockaction.

Well in that case, my challenge still goes out to both Flapjacks and Pizzatyme, both of whom DID call President Obama not just corrupt, but the most corrupt President ever. I'm waiting for either of you to make a case for this.

They can't do it. All they're capable of doing is slinging mud.

 

[timschochet]

Drummer, our policies in Central America during the 1980s (supporting the corrupt, murderous government in El Salvador, and supporting the Contras against the socialist government of Nicaragua) were quite controversial, and if you want to criticize Reagan for pursuing them, I'm tempted to agree with you. But Iran-Contra is a more specific scandal. You wrote that it caused deaths, and I'm unaware of that.

 

[drummer]

Reagan

All you have to do to know why: just read any jon-mx. That's how bad Reagan was.

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

Yes I did. I remember the SNL crisis, he being gutless towards the AIDS crisis, Nancy's stupid "Just Say No" campaign while the inner cities were being flooded with drugs..

Oh and his spending. Lot's of spending.

 

[jon_mx]

Yeah well take a trip to Central America.

Mexico, Central America, and South America suck because of Reagan?

Not as much as you do.

You are bad at this.

 

[timschochet]

Obama is the most polarizing president of my lifetime. Constantly playing the blame game. I have a hatred for government as a whole, but I have never seen so much disagreement and vitriol between the two parties. And Obama is the enzyme that creates much of it. He is a ####### jack wagon.

So you believe that Obama is the one responsible for polarized politics? Are you suggesting that conservatives would be willing to work with Obama if he were only to offer a little compromise?

Absolutely. He is a stubborn piece of ####. He is more worried about his ego than anything. I'm not saying that conservatives are perfect or that they don't play politics, but this president has done more to divide this country than any president in my lifetime (or any president for that matter).

OK. Well we disagree. While I don't approve of many if not most of Obama's domestic policies, I have a really hard time seeing him as the non-compromiser in the group, especially following the 2010 elections and the two debt ceiling crises we've had since then.

 

[drummer]

Drummer, our policies in Central America during the 1980s (supporting the corrupt, murderous government in El Salvador, and supporting the Contras against the socialist government of Nicaragua) were quite controversial, and if you want to criticize Reagan for pursuing them, I'm tempted to agree with you. But Iran-Contra is a more specific scandal. You wrote that it caused deaths, and I'm unaware of that.

Yeah, trading arms doesn't cause deaths.

Are you taking over for johnjohn here? TIA

 

[drummer]

Yeah well take a trip to Central America.

Mexico, Central America, and South America suck because of Reagan?

Not as much as you do.

You are bad at this.

Not as bad as you are.

 

[rockaction]

Reagan

All you have to do to know why: just read any jon-mx. That's how bad Reagan was.

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

Yes I did. I remember the SNL crisis, he being gutless towards the AIDS crisis, Nancy's stupid "Just Say No" campaign while the inner cities were being flooded with drugs..

Oh and his spending. Lot's of spending.

I don't think either of these are invalid criticisms of Reagan. I happen to have been involved with a political guy who was seriously impacted by Reagan and the AIDS crisis, and not in a health way, but in a public policy way. His -- Reagan's -- AIDS response, even to right-wingers, was considered a joke.

I like Reagan. I guess I'm feeling especially rational tonight after the humor thread.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Using the compilation of recent rankings at Wikipedia -- the average ranking for each President:

Abraham Lincoln	 	  1.56 Franklin D. Roosevelt	  2.06 George Washington	  2.78 Thomas Jefferson	  4.50 Theodore Roosevelt	  4.72 Woodrow Wilson	 	  6.94 Harry S. Truman	 	  7.18 Andrew Jackson	 	  9.59 Dwight D. Eisenhower	 10.13 James K. Polk	 	 11.17 John F. Kennedy	 	 11.80 John Adams	 	 12.59 James Madison	 	 13.17 Lyndon B. Johnson	 13.33 James Monroe	 	 14.06 Ronald Reagan	  	 15.00 Grover Cleveland	 16.28 William McKinley	 16.65 John Quincy Adams	 17.67 Bill Clinton	 	 18.33 William Howard Taft	 21.18 George H. W. Bush	 22.09 Martin Van Buren	 23.61 Rutherford B. Hayes	 24.06 Gerald Ford	  	 26.00 Chester A. Arthur	 26.22 Jimmy Carter	  	 26.50 Herbert Hoover	 	 28.29 Benjamin Harrison	 28.33 Calvin Coolidge	 	 28.39 James A. Garfield	 29.50 Richard Nixon	 	 29.88 Zachary Taylor	 	 30.11 Ulysses S. Grant	 31.56 John Tyler	 	 32.72 Millard Fillmore	 33.12 William Henry Harrison	 34.80 George W. Bush	 	 35.00 Andrew Johnson	 	 35.50 Franklin Pierce	 	 36.22 Warren G. Harding	 37.89 James Buchanan	 	 38.06

 

[timschochet]

For me, Reagan is a complex figure. Drummer is right about several of his policies- his abandonment of the inner cities, his denials about AIDs, his support of El Salvador, Chile, and South Africa, among others. These are all IMO problematic, and they don't reflect well on his Presidency.

And yet- jon is right as well. Reagan DID lift up America. He did bring back a sense of optimism and was responsible for revitalizing our spirits. These are important. Reagan was a gigantic figure, and deserves to be considered among our greatest Presidents, much like FDR.

 

[timschochet]

Drummer, our policies in Central America during the 1980s (supporting the corrupt, murderous government in El Salvador, and supporting the Contras against the socialist government of Nicaragua) were quite controversial, and if you want to criticize Reagan for pursuing them, I'm tempted to agree with you. But Iran-Contra is a more specific scandal. You wrote that it caused deaths, and I'm unaware of that.

Yeah, trading arms doesn't cause deaths.

Are you taking over for johnjohn here? TIA

My point is that we were already supporting the Contras and supplying them arms openly prior to Iran-Contra.

 

[drummer]

Drummer, our policies in Central America during the 1980s (supporting the corrupt, murderous government in El Salvador, and supporting the Contras against the socialist government of Nicaragua) were quite controversial, and if you want to criticize Reagan for pursuing them, I'm tempted to agree with you. But Iran-Contra is a more specific scandal. You wrote that it caused deaths, and I'm unaware of that.

Yeah, trading arms doesn't cause deaths.

Are you taking over for johnjohn here? TIA

My point is that we were already supporting the Contras and supplying them arms openly prior to Iran-Contra.

The Nicaraguan Story Somoza Dynasty The U.S. has long intervened in Nicaraguan affairs, aiming to keep its political developments amicable with and aligned to American interests. As early as 1912 the U.S. has utilized military force to quell rebellions against American approved leaders or to help overthrow unwanted regimes. Therefore, when U.S. trained head of the Nicaraguan National Guard, Somoza García, forcefully took power in 1936, the U.S. made no move to protect the current administration under Augusto César Sandino. Sandino’s murder marked the beginning of the Somoza dynastic rule which lasted for the next 43 years. In 1961, the Sandinista National Liberation Front (“FSLN”), named in honor of Sandino, was created in opposition to the Somoza dynasty. Ideologically, the Sandinistas saw themselves as a Marxist-Leninist organization with aims of turning Nicaragua into a socialist state. Inspired by and closely connected to Cuba, the Sandinistas worked to create and consolidate their power in the context of a cold war era where socialist revolutions and uprisings were gaining in worldwide popularity.

In 1967, Anastasio Somoza Debayle, son of Somoza García, became president. He became notorious in Nicaragua for suppressing opposition and focusing on self-enrichment while in power. For example, in 1972, when an earthquake struck Managua, the capital of Nicaragua, Somoza exercised “emergency powers” to address the earthquake which in actuality resulted in him and his close friends confiscating the majority of international aid sent to help rebuild Nicaragua. This event consolidated the Nicaraguan’s disapproval of Anastasio Somoza Debayle, especially among the Sandinistas.

In 1974, the Sandinistas kidnapped several Nicaraguan elites at a Christmas Party. Somoza responded to the affair by declaring a state of siege which spiraled into a series of serious human rights violations and guerilla attacks on peasants. In response, the United States, hyper-sensitive to the threat of communism and in conjunction with a contemporaneous trend of protecting human rights victims, began to pay attention to Nicaraguan affairs for the first time since the Somoza dynasty commenced in 1936. President Jimmy Carter’s foreign policy was shaped not only by a consciousness of human rights, but also by a fatigue of foreign intervention due to the Vietnam War. President Carter cut off all aid to the Nicaraguan government until it improved its human rights violations. Somoza responded by lifting the state of siege. This was met by the Sandinistas re-initiating and expanding their attacks which were now supported by business elites including Alfonso Robelo, and academics, including Adolfo Calero.
Sandinistas in Power: U.S.-Nicaraguan relations still diplomatic On July 19, 1979, the Sandinista uprising culminated in their gaining full power in Nicaragua. The Sandinistas first move as new political leaders was to declare a state of emergency and expropriate land and businesses owned by the old dynastic family and friends, nationalize banks, mines, and transit systems, abolish old courts, denounce churches, and nullify the constitution, laws, and elections. A socialist state was born in Nicaragua. President Carter immediately sent $99 million in aid to the FSLN in an attempt to keep the new regime pro-U.S.. Simultaneously, however, Cuban officials were advising the FSLN on foreign and domestic policy and the FSLN sought an alliance with the Soviet bloc which they reached by March 1980 signing economic, cultural, technological, and scientific agreements with the USSR. Deliveries of Soviet weapons from Cuba began almost immediately after the signing of these agreements.

It was mid-1980 when José Cardenal and Enrique Bermúdez founded what would become the Nicaraguan Democratic Force, or FDN, the main contra group (“the Contras”). The Contras found support among the populations disaffected by Sandinista policies – i.e. protestant evangelicals, farmers, Nicaraguan Indians, Creoles, and other disgruntled and disenfranchised parties. The Argentinean government was the first to support the Contras. They directly oversaw the Contras, trained the military forces, and chose the Contra leadership whereas the U.S. took on the role of supplying money and arms. Many worried that the Contras were a continuation of the Somoza regime because of their use of brutal tactics against noncombatants and their alleged human rights abuses.

Once it became clear to Washington that the FSLN would not moderate its policies, President Carter authorized the CIA to support resistance forces in Nicaragua including propaganda efforts, but not including armed action. The Sandinistas supported expanding socialism abroad, including sending weapons to leftist rebels in El Salvador beginning in 1980 and continuing for the next ten years. Some argue that this international support from Nicaragua was also in effort to insure that the Soviets would fully support and protect Nicaragua in case of a U.S. attack or intervention. Sandinista support for the Salvadoran rebels had a profound impact on U.S.-Nicaragua relations throughout the 80’s.
Reagan Administration: Intervention and Propoganda January 20, 1981, Ronald Reagan was inaugurated during a rightward shift in U.S. politics. He quickly cut off all aid to FSLN indefinitely due to the Sandinista’s continued support of Salvadoran rebels. In response, the Sandinistas consolidated power and expanded arrests of perceived dissidents under the belief that the U.S. would invade. On December 1, 1981, Reagan signed an order that allowed the CIA to support the Contras with arms, equipment, and money. This order was implemented in conjunction with an overall strengthening of U.S. presence in Central America and the belief that covert activities are the most effective way to put pressure on a regime. This shift of foreign policy away from the Carter administration’s non-intervention culminated in June 1982 with the Reagan Doctrine which called for supporting democratization everywhere. It was at this point that the goal of the covert operations in Nicaragua shifted away from one of simply interdicting arms to one of supporting a change in government. Iran-Contra historian Theodore Draper, among others, argued, that this was the real goal all the long.

To help popularize the foreign policy changes of the Reagan administration certain propaganda and media initiatives were implemented to sway public and congressional opinion. In January of 1983, National Security Decisions Directive was signed, entitled “Management of Public Diplomacy Relative to National Security,” institutionalizing public diplomacy. In effect, it was a special planning group within the NSC to coordinate public diplomacy campaigns. [6] This group was America’s first peacetime propaganda ministry. Every administration tries to influence public opinion, but not until Reagan was it so institutionalized. Another use of “white propaganda,” which Richard Miller described as "actually putting out [the] truth, straight information, not deception," was the State Department’s Group of Latin American Public Diplomacy (S/LPD). [7] This group, in actuality, reported directly to the NSC despite being housed within the State Department. Both committees utilized a variety of media propaganda and control efforts. A fourteen page memorandum dated March 20, 1985 from North to National Security Advisor Robert McFarlane explained over 80 publicity stunts to influence public and congressional opinion before upcoming Contra aid votes. [8] The public diplomacy officials also leaked select pieces of information that they wanted made public to journalists who favored Reagan. Strategic leaking and declassification of documents allowed the Executive Branch to manage the public perceptions of the American efforts in South America.

 

[rockaction]

Using the compilation of recent rankings at Wikipedia -- the average ranking for each President:

Abraham Lincoln 1.56 Franklin D. Roosevelt 2.06 George Washington 2.78 Thomas Jefferson 4.50 Theodore Roosevelt 4.72 Woodrow Wilson 6.94 Harry S. Truman 7.18 Andrew Jackson 9.59 Dwight D. Eisenhower 10.13 James K. Polk 11.17 John F. Kennedy 11.80 John Adams 12.59 James Madison 13.17 Lyndon B. Johnson 13.33 James Monroe 14.06 Ronald Reagan 15.00 Grover Cleveland 16.28 William McKinley 16.65 John Quincy Adams 17.67 Bill Clinton 18.33 William Howard Taft 21.18 George H. W. Bush 22.09 Martin Van Buren 23.61 Rutherford B. Hayes 24.06 Gerald Ford 26.00 Chester A. Arthur 26.22 Jimmy Carter 26.50 Herbert Hoover 28.29 Benjamin Harrison 28.33 Calvin Coolidge 28.39 James A. Garfield 29.50 Richard Nixon 29.88 Zachary Taylor 30.11 Ulysses S. Grant 31.56 John Tyler 32.72 Millard Fillmore 33.12 William Henry Harrison 34.80 George W. Bush 35.00 Andrew Johnson 35.50 Franklin Pierce 36.22 Warren G. Harding 37.89 James Buchanan 38.06

Interesting. Who votes? Naturally, I disagree with a bunch, but this is kinda cool.

 

[Fennis]

Using the compilation of recent rankings at Wikipedia -- the average ranking for each President:

Abraham Lincoln 1.56 Franklin D. Roosevelt 2.06 George Washington 2.78 Thomas Jefferson 4.50 Theodore Roosevelt 4.72 Woodrow Wilson 6.94 Harry S. Truman 7.18 Andrew Jackson 9.59 Dwight D. Eisenhower 10.13 James K. Polk 11.17 John F. Kennedy 11.80 John Adams 12.59 James Madison 13.17 Lyndon B. Johnson 13.33 James Monroe 14.06 Ronald Reagan 15.00 Grover Cleveland 16.28 William McKinley 16.65 John Quincy Adams 17.67 Bill Clinton 18.33 William Howard Taft 21.18 George H. W. Bush 22.09 Martin Van Buren 23.61 Rutherford B. Hayes 24.06 Gerald Ford 26.00 Chester A. Arthur 26.22 Jimmy Carter 26.50 Herbert Hoover 28.29 Benjamin Harrison 28.33 Calvin Coolidge 28.39 James A. Garfield 29.50 Richard Nixon 29.88 Zachary Taylor 30.11 Ulysses S. Grant 31.56 John Tyler 32.72 Millard Fillmore 33.12 William Henry Harrison 34.80 George W. Bush 35.00 Andrew Johnson 35.50 Franklin Pierce 36.22 Warren G. Harding 37.89 James Buchanan 38.06

Interesting. Who votes? Naturally, I disagree with a bunch, but this is kinda cool.

I like Ike

 

[drummer]

Using the compilation of recent rankings at Wikipedia -- the average ranking for each President:

Abraham Lincoln 1.56 Franklin D. Roosevelt 2.06 George Washington 2.78 Thomas Jefferson 4.50 Theodore Roosevelt 4.72 Woodrow Wilson 6.94 Harry S. Truman 7.18 Andrew Jackson 9.59 Dwight D. Eisenhower 10.13 James K. Polk 11.17 John F. Kennedy 11.80 John Adams 12.59 James Madison 13.17 Lyndon B. Johnson 13.33 James Monroe 14.06 Ronald Reagan 15.00 Grover Cleveland 16.28 William McKinley 16.65 John Quincy Adams 17.67 Bill Clinton 18.33 William Howard Taft 21.18 George H. W. Bush 22.09 Martin Van Buren 23.61 Rutherford B. Hayes 24.06 Gerald Ford 26.00 Chester A. Arthur 26.22 Jimmy Carter 26.50 Herbert Hoover 28.29 Benjamin Harrison 28.33 Calvin Coolidge 28.39 James A. Garfield 29.50 Richard Nixon 29.88 Zachary Taylor 30.11 Ulysses S. Grant 31.56 John Tyler 32.72 Millard Fillmore 33.12 William Henry Harrison 34.80 George W. Bush 35.00 Andrew Johnson 35.50 Franklin Pierce 36.22 Warren G. Harding 37.89 James Buchanan 38.06

Interesting. Who votes? Naturally, I disagree with a bunch, but this is kinda cool.

Yeah. We have to look at how that data is compiled in order to qualify it.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Using the compilation of recent rankings at Wikipedia -- the average ranking for each President:

Abraham Lincoln 1.56 Franklin D. Roosevelt 2.06 George Washington 2.78 Thomas Jefferson 4.50 Theodore Roosevelt 4.72 Woodrow Wilson 6.94 Harry S. Truman 7.18 Andrew Jackson 9.59 Dwight D. Eisenhower 10.13 James K. Polk 11.17 John F. Kennedy 11.80 John Adams 12.59 James Madison 13.17 Lyndon B. Johnson 13.33 James Monroe 14.06 Ronald Reagan 15.00 Grover Cleveland 16.28 William McKinley 16.65 John Quincy Adams 17.67 Bill Clinton 18.33 William Howard Taft 21.18 George H. W. Bush 22.09 Martin Van Buren 23.61 Rutherford B. Hayes 24.06 Gerald Ford 26.00 Chester A. Arthur 26.22 Jimmy Carter 26.50 Herbert Hoover 28.29 Benjamin Harrison 28.33 Calvin Coolidge 28.39 James A. Garfield 29.50 Richard Nixon 29.88 Zachary Taylor 30.11 Ulysses S. Grant 31.56 John Tyler 32.72 Millard Fillmore 33.12 William Henry Harrison 34.80 George W. Bush 35.00 Andrew Johnson 35.50 Franklin Pierce 36.22 Warren G. Harding 37.89 James Buchanan 38.06

Interesting. Who votes? Naturally, I disagree with a bunch, but this is kinda cool.

It's not votes... it's a collection of rankings by media orgs and scholars. Wikipedia curates the list, but they all represent pretty serious efforts.

ETA: there's not really a ton of disagreement about anyone that I can find.

 

[drummer]

For me, Reagan is a complex figure. Drummer is right about several of his policies- his abandonment of the inner cities, his denials about AIDs, his support of El Salvador, Chile, and South Africa, among others. These are all IMO problematic, and they don't reflect well on his Presidency.

And yet- jon is right as well. Reagan DID lift up America. He did bring back a sense of optimism and was responsible for revitalizing our spirits. These are important. Reagan was a gigantic figure, and deserves to be considered among our greatest Presidents, much like FDR.

You say "our", like that was true.

ETA: If anything, what Reagan created was even more cynicism towards government.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

It's laughable to include Obama in the discussion as worst ever. The discussion of worst ever includes Wilson, Nixon, Fillmore, Pierce, Johnson, and Harding. My vote goes to Harding.

No mention of Hoover? Guy was partially responsible for the Great Depression.

Hoover sucked

 

[timschochet]

Hard for me to have Andrew Jackson high on that list. I know he did a lot of important things, but his actions toward native Americans are probably the worst of any American President. He is guilty of genocide.

 

[timschochet]

For me, Reagan is a complex figure. Drummer is right about several of his policies- his abandonment of the inner cities, his denials about AIDs, his support of El Salvador, Chile, and South Africa, among others. These are all IMO problematic, and they don't reflect well on his Presidency.

And yet- jon is right as well. Reagan DID lift up America. He did bring back a sense of optimism and was responsible for revitalizing our spirits. These are important. Reagan was a gigantic figure, and deserves to be considered among our greatest Presidents, much like FDR.

You say "our", like that was true.

You're right. I wouldn't have written that if I didn't think it was true.

 

[Aerial Assault]

It's laughable to include Obama in the discussion as worst ever. The discussion of worst ever includes Wilson, Nixon, Fillmore, Pierce, Johnson, and Harding. My vote goes to Harding.

No mention of Hoover? Guy was partially responsible for the Great Depression.

James Buchanan is also usually high on the lists I've seen before.

Obama will be on money someday and there will be a huge memorial in DC for him someday as well. I hope I live to see it. Even the great ones like FDR, etc. had partisans screaming how bad they were.

Because fawning adoration is what makes a great President?

It's thinking like this that got Obama a Nobel Peace Prize for doing absolutely nothing.

No, it's thinking (and fawning adoration) like this that still has conservatrolls erecting monuments (in their pants and elsewhere) to Saint Ronnie. Who should be on the lists of worst presidents ever.

 

[drummer]

For me, Reagan is a complex figure. Drummer is right about several of his policies- his abandonment of the inner cities, his denials about AIDs, his support of El Salvador, Chile, and South Africa, among others. These are all IMO problematic, and they don't reflect well on his Presidency.

And yet- jon is right as well. Reagan DID lift up America. He did bring back a sense of optimism and was responsible for revitalizing our spirits. These are important. Reagan was a gigantic figure, and deserves to be considered among our greatest Presidents, much like FDR.

You say "our", like that was true.

You're right. I wouldn't have written that if I didn't think it was true.

Well, I'm sure you can find quite a few who aren't "you".

 

[pizzatyme]

Where does the buck stop? If you say the President, then I say:

Fast & Furious

NSA

IRS

Benghazi

For starters.

For the guy who stumped on being the great uniter and will have the most transparent administration EVAH, it seems like that's not really been the case.

Not being able to prove his knowledge doesn't mean he gets a pass. These things happened under his watch.

I think he has been responsible for some very good things coming about as well, but it doesn't overcome the coverups, withholding documents, etc.

It's my opinion. We all get one.

 

[timschochet]

Woodrow Wilson also- perhaps the most overrated President ever. His foreign policy, based on the notion that democracy and independence is great for everyone no matter what the conditions, still haunts us today. And he was an extreme racist who caused segregation and Jim Crow to last much longer than it probably should have.

 

[rockaction]

Using the compilation of recent rankings at Wikipedia -- the average ranking for each President:

Abraham Lincoln 1.56 Franklin D. Roosevelt 2.06 George Washington 2.78 Thomas Jefferson 4.50 Theodore Roosevelt 4.72 Woodrow Wilson 6.94 Harry S. Truman 7.18 Andrew Jackson 9.59 Dwight D. Eisenhower 10.13 James K. Polk 11.17 John F. Kennedy 11.80 John Adams 12.59 James Madison 13.17 Lyndon B. Johnson 13.33 James Monroe 14.06 Ronald Reagan 15.00 Grover Cleveland 16.28 William McKinley 16.65 John Quincy Adams 17.67 Bill Clinton 18.33 William Howard Taft 21.18 George H. W. Bush 22.09 Martin Van Buren 23.61 Rutherford B. Hayes 24.06 Gerald Ford 26.00 Chester A. Arthur 26.22 Jimmy Carter 26.50 Herbert Hoover 28.29 Benjamin Harrison 28.33 Calvin Coolidge 28.39 James A. Garfield 29.50 Richard Nixon 29.88 Zachary Taylor 30.11 Ulysses S. Grant 31.56 John Tyler 32.72 Millard Fillmore 33.12 William Henry Harrison 34.80 George W. Bush 35.00 Andrew Johnson 35.50 Franklin Pierce 36.22 Warren G. Harding 37.89 James Buchanan 38.06

Interesting. Who votes? Naturally, I disagree with a bunch, but this is kinda cool.

It's not votes... it's a collection of rankings by media orgs and scholars. Wikipedia curates the list, but they all represent pretty serious efforts.

ETA: there's not really a ton of disagreement about anyone that I can find.

I'd say Jefferson and Washington have to be higher than FDR. I'd also say W was saddled with some awful, awful consequences that he wanted nothing to do with, and should be rated higher, though I'm no W fan. When Nixon beats you, I'm pretty sure the list is a bit off, both politically and morally.

 

[The General]

Using the compilation of recent rankings at Wikipedia -- the average ranking for each President:

Abraham Lincoln 1.56 Franklin D. Roosevelt 2.06 George Washington 2.78 Thomas Jefferson 4.50 Theodore Roosevelt 4.72 Woodrow Wilson 6.94 Harry S. Truman 7.18 Andrew Jackson 9.59 Dwight D. Eisenhower 10.13 James K. Polk 11.17 John F. Kennedy 11.80 John Adams 12.59 James Madison 13.17 Lyndon B. Johnson 13.33 James Monroe 14.06 Ronald Reagan 15.00 Grover Cleveland 16.28 William McKinley 16.65 John Quincy Adams 17.67 Bill Clinton 18.33 William Howard Taft 21.18 George H. W. Bush 22.09 Martin Van Buren 23.61 Rutherford B. Hayes 24.06 Gerald Ford 26.00 Chester A. Arthur 26.22 Jimmy Carter 26.50 Herbert Hoover 28.29 Benjamin Harrison 28.33 Calvin Coolidge 28.39 James A. Garfield 29.50 Richard Nixon 29.88 Zachary Taylor 30.11 Ulysses S. Grant 31.56 John Tyler 32.72 Millard Fillmore 33.12 William Henry Harrison 34.80 George W. Bush 35.00 Andrew Johnson 35.50 Franklin Pierce 36.22 Warren G. Harding 37.89 James Buchanan 38.06

Serious value drafting James K. Polk. 1st round value with a 5th round pick.

Reagan appears to be overrated. DO NOT DRAFT.

 

[timschochet]

Where does the buck stop? If you say the President, then I say:

Fast & Furious

NSA

IRS

Benghazi

For starters.

For the guy who stumped on being the great uniter and will have the most transparent administration EVAH, it seems like that's not really been the case.

Not being able to prove his knowledge doesn't mean he gets a pass. These things happened under his watch.

I think he has been responsible for some very good things coming about as well, but it doesn't overcome the coverups, withholding documents, etc.

It's my opinion. We all get one.

Yes you do. And thanks for responding.

With the exception of the NSA issue, nothing you mentioned has been traced back to the President. Sure, you can assume that he's responsible or that he should have known what's going on, but there really isn't any evidence of this. Since, as I wrote before, there IS evidence of Watergate and Teapot Dome, I don't see how you can justify calling Obama the most corrupt President in history.

Regarding the NSA, that is not a matter of corruption so much as it is a matter of policy. You can disagree with his policy (most here do).

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Looks like most of the rankings originated with an organization (mostly big media companies) reaching out to groups of historians and presidential scholars. Like I said, serious efforts.

Bush taking us into Iraq for nothing will anchor him near the bottom of the lists regardless of whatever else people decide about his tenure. You can't completely #### up your biggest call as a Pres and expect history to be kind.

 

[rockaction]

Woodrow Wilson also- perhaps the most overrated President ever. His foreign policy, based on the notion that democracy and independence is great for everyone no matter what the conditions, still haunts us today. And he was an extreme racist who caused segregation and Jim Crow to last much longer than it probably should have.

He said a hyphenated name (of ethnicity) is the dagger in the heart of America, or something like that, about us ethnic whites.

And a failed League of Nations. And a late join to a European war.

 

[jon_mx]

Reagan

All you have to do to know why: just read any jon-mx. That's how bad Reagan was.

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

Yes I did. I remember the SNL crisis, he being gutless towards the AIDS crisis, Nancy's stupid "Just Say No" campaign while the inner cities were being flooded with drugs..

Oh and his spending. Lot's of spending.

You seem to be oblivious to the country which Reagan inherited. One which the US was a waning power. One with double-digit unemployment. High interest rates and high inflation. Long gas lines. A Cold War which we seemed to be losing. A world which nuclear war seemed like a real possibility. Reagan restored America. He brought back pride and confidence. He rid is of obscene tax structures which 70 plus percent rates were stifling growth. He united America and made her great again. He put fear into the Soviet empire and gave the push that lead to its demise. He lead the world to unprecedented peace and economic boom.

 

[jamny]

Obama will be remembered as our first black President and for Obamacare (good or bad)

Not much else.

He really could have been so much more.

 

[timschochet]

Woodrow Wilson also- perhaps the most overrated President ever. His foreign policy, based on the notion that democracy and independence is great for everyone no matter what the conditions, still haunts us today. And he was an extreme racist who caused segregation and Jim Crow to last much longer than it probably should have.

A hyphen is the dagger in the heart of America, or something like that, about us ethnic whites.

And a failed League of Nations. And a late join to a European war.

I don't think the League of Nations was a problem. Like the United Nations, a good idea. The problem was that he basically sought to destroy the British Empire by declaring colonization evil and pushing for democracy everywhere. In most of the countries where this was tried, the result was a dictatorship, because if the people are not ready for a democracy, one guy takes over.

And the collapse of the British Empire, especially in Africa and India, caused the deaths of literally hundreds of millions of people.

 

[rockaction]

Reagan

All you have to do to know why: just read any jon-mx. That's how bad Reagan was.

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

Yes I did. I remember the SNL crisis, he being gutless towards the AIDS crisis, Nancy's stupid "Just Say No" campaign while the inner cities were being flooded with drugs..

Oh and his spending. Lot's of spending.

You seem to be oblivious to the country which Reagan inherited. One which the US was a waning power. One with double-digit unemployment. High interest rates and high inflation. Long gas lines. A Cold War which we seemed to be losing. A world which nuclear war seemed like a real possibility. Reagan restored America. He brought back pride and confidence. He rid is of obscene tax structures which 70 plus percent rates were stifling growth. He united America and made her great again. He put fear into the Soviet empire and gave the push that lead to its demise. He lead the world to unprecedented peace and economic boom.

I looked in the U.S. Master Tax Guide (used to work in an accounting office back in the day). This is true. The tax rates under Nixon, Ford, and Carter were astonishing to me. The obvious reply is deficits, but those tax rates were obscene.

 

[pizzatyme]

Main Entry: corrupt

Part of Speech: adjective

Definition: dishonest

Synonyms: base, bent, bribable, crooked, debauched, double-dealing, exploiting, extortionate, faithless, fast and loose, fixed, foul, fraudulent, gone to the dogs, inconstant, iniquitous, knavish, mercenary, nefarious, on the take, open, padded, perfidious, praetorian, profiteering, racket up, reprobate, rotten, shady, snide, suborned, tainted, treacherous, two-faced, underhanded, unethical, unfaithful, unprincipled, unscrupulous, untrustworthy, venal, wide open

Antonyms: decent, honest, honorable, principled, pure, trustworthy, truthful, uncorrupt, upright

I find more of Obama's policies and "challenges" during his Presidency fall under the synonym category. That's just my take.

 

[drummer]

Reagan

All you have to do to know why: just read any jon-mx. That's how bad Reagan was.

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

Yes I did. I remember the SNL crisis, he being gutless towards the AIDS crisis, Nancy's stupid "Just Say No" campaign while the inner cities were being flooded with drugs..

Oh and his spending. Lot's of spending.

You seem to be oblivious to the country which Reagan inherited. One which the US was a waning power. One with double-digit unemployment. High interest rates and high inflation. Long gas lines. A Cold War which we seemed to be losing. A world which nuclear war seemed like a real possibility. Reagan restored America. He brought back pride and confidence. He rid is of obscene tax structures which 70 plus percent rates were stifling growth. He united America and made her great again. He put fear into the Soviet empire and gave the push that lead to its demise. He lead the world to unprecedented peace and economic boom.

Again, I lived through Nixon. And let's not forget Russia's war with Afghanistan, which has more to do with Russia's undoing than Reagan.

BTW: Thanks Sean Hannity.

 

[timschochet]

Reagan

All you have to do to know why: just read any jon-mx. That's how bad Reagan was.

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

Yes I did. I remember the SNL crisis, he being gutless towards the AIDS crisis, Nancy's stupid "Just Say No" campaign while the inner cities were being flooded with drugs..

Oh and his spending. Lot's of spending.

You seem to be oblivious to the country which Reagan inherited. One which the US was a waning power. One with double-digit unemployment. High interest rates and high inflation. Long gas lines. A Cold War which we seemed to be losing. A world which nuclear war seemed like a real possibility. Reagan restored America. He brought back pride and confidence. He rid is of obscene tax structures which 70 plus percent rates were stifling growth. He united America and made her great again. He put fear into the Soviet empire and gave the push that lead to its demise. He lead the world to unprecedented peace and economic boom.

I looked in the U.S. Master Tax Guide (used to work in an accounting office back in the day). This is true. The tax rates under Nixon, Ford, and Carter were astonishing to me. The obvious reply is deficits, but those tax rates were obscene.

To be fair though, they were just as high under Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson, during which years the economy boomed for the most part. How would you explain this?

 

[The General]

Obama will be remembered as our first black President and for Obamacare (good or bad)

Not much else.

He really could have been so much more.

Gotta say I agree with this, he's not been effective and a bit of a let down. Don't know if it's his fault as much as it is politics today.

No where near any list as worst ever though.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

To be fair though, they were just as high under Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson, during which years the economy boomed for the most part. How would you explain this?

It's not a mystery. Estimates vary a little bit, but the point at which marginal tax rates are actually high enough to stifle billionaires from making another billion are north of 65-70%.

 

[rockaction]

Woodrow Wilson also- perhaps the most overrated President ever. His foreign policy, based on the notion that democracy and independence is great for everyone no matter what the conditions, still haunts us today. And he was an extreme racist who caused segregation and Jim Crow to last much longer than it probably should have.

A hyphen is the dagger in the heart of America, or something like that, about us ethnic whites.

And a failed League of Nations. And a late join to a European war.

I don't think the League of Nations was a problem. Like the United Nations, a good idea. The problem was that he basically sought to destroy the British Empire by declaring colonization evil and pushing for democracy everywhere. In most of the countries where this was tried, the result was a dictatorship, because if the people are not ready for a democracy, one guy takes over.

And the collapse of the British Empire, especially in Africa and India, caused the deaths of literally hundreds of millions of people.

Ah, sounds odd considering his racism, huh?

Regardless, your position sounds like a whole lot of realpolitik. I'll bow out of this discussion, as I'm not equipped, nor sure I philosophically agree in the least.

 

[jon_mx]

Reagan

All you have to do to know why: just read any jon-mx. That's how bad Reagan was.

Did you even live through the Reagan years? Do you have any idea where we were as a country and how he lifted us up? He is one of the most beloved Presidents of all-time for a reason. Only hardcore leftist don't think Reagan was a great president.

Yes I did. I remember the SNL crisis, he being gutless towards the AIDS crisis, Nancy's stupid "Just Say No" campaign while the inner cities were being flooded with drugs..

Oh and his spending. Lot's of spending.

You seem to be oblivious to the country which Reagan inherited. One which the US was a waning power. One with double-digit unemployment. High interest rates and high inflation. Long gas lines. A Cold War which we seemed to be losing. A world which nuclear war seemed like a real possibility. Reagan restored America. He brought back pride and confidence. He rid is of obscene tax structures which 70 plus percent rates were stifling growth. He united America and made her great again. He put fear into the Soviet empire and gave the push that lead to its demise. He lead the world to unprecedented peace and economic boom.

I looked in the U.S. Master Tax Guide (used to work in an accounting office back in the day). This is true. The tax rates under Nixon, Ford, and Carter were astonishing to me. The obvious reply is deficits, but those tax rates were obscene.

To be fair though, they were just as high under Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson, during which years the economy boomed for the most part. How would you explain this?

We had some bad years back then too. Kennedy lowered rates which were close to 90 percent and helped revitalized the economy.

 

[drummer]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/04/AR2011020403104.html?sid=ST2011020403674