Obesity and Ozempic and more (1 Viewer)

[beer 30]

@JAA dropping knowledge up in here

 

[culdeus]

I was at a cardiometabolic health conference over the weekend. During the obesity panel, someone asked the doctors whether, if a patient is started on Wegovy, they should be on it for life. All of the doctors said yes, as did some in the audience.

Not only because of the weight rebound issue, but because of its other cardiometabolic benefits. You don’t take people off their blood pressure and cholesterol drugs. They see this as the same idea.

That's upsetting.

You only need to be on the drug forever if you don't change eating habits.

You don't go off the drug, and fat magically reappears. If you go off the drug, and eat well, you won't get obese again.

This is my concern. Ozempic could be an amazing tool to jump start long team health and weight management. Instead, it will be the ONLY tool many people use

Sub 20% guy…..

I know you all are just jabbing at each other a bit, but it's kind of a demonstration of what I just posted about: Thin guy negging on somewhat-less-thin guy over body-fat percentage. Both of you probably look like a starving underwear models in a room full of obese people.

Related: In the world of "people who are serious about fitness" ... how serious are the "idea wars" about best diet, best fitness ideas, etc. Does it ever get to the point of profound disrespect? Do the "Mediterranean diet" guys think the Keto guys are loons?

I think humans should focus on resting heart rate and VO2 max. IMHO those are the only 2 metrics which should count. Waaaaaaaay to many different body structures out there, none of which are "wrong".

I have an Apple Watch and log workouts on it regularly. But in my Health app, my last VO2 reading is from 2019. Not sure what I’m doing wrong.

Are the workouts outside? Only way I get a reading is if I run or walk.

Yeah, a ton of them are outside walks. Maybe they need to be outside runs. I will jog occasionally, but mostly they are 4 mile walks at a brisk pace so I log them on my watch as walks. I’ll try it out. Thanks.

It should work for walks. Hmmm Not sure what or why it's not working.

Walks with gps on should trigger it on all watch devices. If have location services private to health app that may shut it down.

 

[Doug B]

Then what? People will still be eating garbage, not getting nutrients, they will be skinny fat, and will still develop long term health problems associated with poor diet. It will probably happen less because of these drugs, and that's great. And some people will choose to eat healthier when they lose weight, clearly. But people who don't like dieting, and don't want to change their diet, are they more likely to make hard changes after they lose weight? Doubtful.

Top-of-the-mountain: Does the bolded really matter?

Another prior: I kind of think the "obese people eat nothing but junk!" is not really accurate. It's convenient shorthand to talk about people "living on Cheetos" or whatever. And yes, I remember kids in school back in the day having packed lunches with bologna sandwiches on white bread, Fritos, and Twinkies -- AND I know a handful of adults who still eat this stuff. However -- the main run of obese people in my life actually eat reasonably healthy foods most of the time. However again -- those same obese people also "need dessert" or "get hangry if they can't have X" or "gotta have salty snacks". So IMHO, "reasonably healthy food + junk" is a lot more common obese-person diet than "junk, junk, and more junk!".

Yes, I'm aware that "reasonably healthy foods" is doing a lot of work here. No, I won't claim that it means "Mediterranean diet" or "Okinawan diet" or anything like that.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

I am on record in this forum several times regarding the corporate garbage food that gets pushed in this country. It is, BY FAR, the biggest issue in terms of tackling this problem. OK? You won't find any "just stop eating" posts from me anywhere. What the FDA allows, the sugar lobby, the corn industry, the shady labeling practices, our completely inactive children.....it's a problem with many sources, and what our leaders allow to happen in the US food industry is the biggest cause of this epidemic.

This right here is the biggest issue. IMHO. I too have shouted it from the mountaintops. No one really cares

 

[Doug B]

Just as an aside -- and this could be a whole 'nother thread -- a surprising amount of obese people (that I know closely) skip breakfast. One really only eats between around 3:00 - 10:00 p.m. except on weekends. However, she needs the salty snacks, needs dessert, and gets "hangry!" frequently.

 

[JAA]

Then what? People will still be eating garbage, not getting nutrients, they will be skinny fat, and will still develop long term health problems associated with poor diet. It will probably happen less because of these drugs, and that's great. And some people will choose to eat healthier when they lose weight, clearly. But people who don't like dieting, and don't want to change their diet, are they more likely to make hard changes after they lose weight? Doubtful.

Top-of-the-mountain: Does the bolded really matter?

Another prior: I kind of think the "obese people eat nothing but junk!" is not really accurate. It's convenient shorthand to talk about people "living on Cheetos" or whatever. And yes, I remember kids in school back in the day having packed lunches with bologna sandwiches on white bread, Fritos, and Twinkies -- AND I know a handful of adults who still eat this stuff. However -- the main run of obese people in my life actually eat reasonably healthy foods most of the time. However again -- those same obese people also "need dessert" or "get hangry if they can't have X" or "gotta have salty snacks". So IMHO, "reasonably healthy food + junk" is a lot more common obese-person diet than "junk, junk, and more junk!".

Yes, I'm aware that "reasonably healthy foods" is doing a lot of work here. No, I won't claim that it means "Mediterranean diet" or "Okinawan diet" or anything like that.

You didnt ask me, but here is my response.

For 95+% of people counting calories let alone macros (% fat, carb, protein) are not important. What is important is the proliferation, almost glorification, of a sedentary lifestyle. We need to move more. Any movement, like really, anything but sitting or laying down. If we could just start moving more, everything would work itself out. Like literally everything.

Spoiler

For the most part, people don't eat and drink while they are moving

 

[beer 30]

Just as an aside -- and this could be a whole 'nother thread -- a surprising amount of obese people (that I know closely) skip breakfast. One really only eats between around 3:00 - 10:00 p.m. except on weekends. However, she needs the salty snacks, needs dessert, and gets "hangry!" frequently.

My company moved into a new building a few years ago. It was a long time coming and much needed. One of the traditions we had at the old building was candy on Friday's. It was a fun way to celebrate the end of the week, most it was wrapped candy but there were M&M's and Skittles that we would pour into Dixie cups. Like everything, it was well intentioned when it started but folks started pushing the limits. You'd see large folk walking around with 5-6 Dixie cups chuck full, people started requesting certain candies, then it went from Friday afternoon after 1PM to all day Friday to all day everyday. Fast forward to now. We have two large baskets full of one side gummy type stuff, one side chocolate along with a big Costco sized jug of 3 different types of M&M's, Skittles and jelly beans. We go through $10k worth of candy a month. I've seen folks double fisting coffee cups full of M&M's. It's ridiculous. We also now have a Pepsi & Coke dispenser ala any restaurant you've ever been in.

Yet the company has signs every where espousing a healthy life style, talk about it all the time in group meetings, go get regular check ups, all the talky things. It's a crazy dichotomy with some of the ridiculously large folks here that can barely walk to the candy counter and back to their cube.

 

[bigbottom]

I was at a cardiometabolic health conference over the weekend. During the obesity panel, someone asked the doctors whether, if a patient is started on Wegovy, they should be on it for life. All of the doctors said yes, as did some in the audience.

Not only because of the weight rebound issue, but because of its other cardiometabolic benefits. You don’t take people off their blood pressure and cholesterol drugs. They see this as the same idea.

That's upsetting.

You only need to be on the drug forever if you don't change eating habits.

You don't go off the drug, and fat magically reappears. If you go off the drug, and eat well, you won't get obese again.

This is my concern. Ozempic could be an amazing tool to jump start long team health and weight management. Instead, it will be the ONLY tool many people use

Sub 20% guy…..

I know you all are just jabbing at each other a bit, but it's kind of a demonstration of what I just posted about: Thin guy negging on somewhat-less-thin guy over body-fat percentage. Both of you probably look like a starving underwear models in a room full of obese people.

Related: In the world of "people who are serious about fitness" ... how serious are the "idea wars" about best diet, best fitness ideas, etc. Does it ever get to the point of profound disrespect? Do the "Mediterranean diet" guys think the Keto guys are loons?

I think humans should focus on resting heart rate and VO2 max. IMHO those are the only 2 metrics which should count. Waaaaaaaay to many different body structures out there, none of which are "wrong".

I have an Apple Watch and log workouts on it regularly. But in my Health app, my last VO2 reading is from 2019. Not sure what I’m doing wrong.

Are the workouts outside? Only way I get a reading is if I run or walk.

Yeah, a ton of them are outside walks. Maybe they need to be outside runs. I will jog occasionally, but mostly they are 4 mile walks at a brisk pace so I log them on my watch as walks. I’ll try it out. Thanks.

It should work for walks. Hmmm Not sure what or why it's not working.

Walks with gps on should trigger it on all watch devices. If have location services private to health app that may shut it down.

I think I realized that I had the gps off on my watch for forever. That may be the issue b

 

[Doug B]

You didnt ask me, but here is my response.

Hey, I'm glad for the feedback. Thanks.

...

Going back a few posts, the ones that discussed messaging: Another place where messaging might be falling down is in recent reports that weight loss is, I don't know, 90% calorie reduction and 10% exercise/movement. Or thereabouts. Been a little of it in this thread from the HealthGuys.

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

I know from my own recent experiences that exercise & movement matters plenty in a "use it or lose it" sense -- maybe not for weight loss so much, but for continuing to be able to do the basic things you did when younger (e.g. walk around for a 30-minute stretch, climb a ladder, take a few flights of stairs, etc.).

 

[Doug B]

We have two large baskets full of one side gummy type stuff, one side chocolate along with a big Costco sized jug of 3 different types of M&M's, Skittles and jelly beans. We go through $10k worth of candy a month. I've seen folks double fisting coffee cups full of M&M's. It's ridiculous. We also now have a Pepsi & Coke dispenser ala any restaurant you've ever been in.

I'd bet money, too, that there are obese people at that office who'll skip lunch and then load up on the candy later on in the day.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I was at a cardiometabolic health conference over the weekend. During the obesity panel, someone asked the doctors whether, if a patient is started on Wegovy, they should be on it for life. All of the doctors said yes, as did some in the audience.

Not only because of the weight rebound issue, but because of its other cardiometabolic benefits. You don’t take people off their blood pressure and cholesterol drugs. They see this as the same idea.

That's upsetting.

You only need to be on the drug forever if you don't change eating habits.

You don't go off the drug, and fat magically reappears. If you go off the drug, and eat well, you won't get obese again.

This is my concern. Ozempic could be an amazing tool to jump start long team health and weight management. Instead, it will be the ONLY tool many people use

One of the main points in the podcast I referenced in the original post is that most see it as a drug you will take for the rest of your life. Which is partly why the pharma companies are so excited about it.

Johann Hari said he stopped for a while and it was a little scary how severely he rebounded in not being full and wanting to eat a lot.

 

[Chadstroma]

I was at a cardiometabolic health conference over the weekend. During the obesity panel, someone asked the doctors whether, if a patient is started on Wegovy, they should be on it for life. All of the doctors said yes, as did some in the audience.

Not only because of the weight rebound issue, but because of its other cardiometabolic benefits. You don’t take people off their blood pressure and cholesterol drugs. They see this as the same idea.

That's upsetting.

You only need to be on the drug forever if you don't change eating habits.

You don't go off the drug, and fat magically reappears. If you go off the drug, and eat well, you won't get obese again.

This is my concern. Ozempic could be an amazing tool to jump start long team health and weight management. Instead, it will be the ONLY tool many people use

One of the main points in the podcast I referenced in the original post is that most see it as a drug you will take for the rest of your life. Which is partly why the pharma companies are so excited about it.

Johann Hari said he stopped for a while and it was a little scary how severely he rebounded in not being full and wanting to eat a lot.

Technically Ozempic is for lowering your A1C for diabetes 2. In that role, chances are high you will need to continue (unless, as some have had, the weight loss had the affect of no longer being in the diabetes level). In that sense, yes, you would take Ozempic indefinitely.

WeGovy is the one that is approved for weight loss.

In my conversations with two different Endocrinologist and my primary, never was it expressed this would be a drug I would take indefinitely but rather assistance to get to a healthy weight and then come off of it.

 

[belljr]

We have two large baskets full of one side gummy type stuff, one side chocolate along with a big Costco sized jug of 3 different types of M&M's, Skittles and jelly beans. We go through $10k worth of candy a month. I've seen folks double fisting coffee cups full of M&M's. It's ridiculous. We also now have a Pepsi & Coke dispenser ala any restaurant you've ever been in.

I'd bet money, too, that there are obese people at that office who'll skip lunch and then load up on the candy later on in the day.

Is that wrong? Seems smart saving those calories

 

[Sand]

For 95+% of people counting calories let alone macros (% fat, carb, protein) are not important. What is important is the proliferation, almost glorification, of a sedentary lifestyle. We need to move more. Any movement, like really, anything but sitting or laying down. If we could just start moving more, everything would work itself out. Like literally everything.

Spoiler

For the most part, people don't eat and drink while they are moving

If you read Attia (and every medical article that comes out, it seems), one thing that we can readily say is that exercise is the best panacea we have for a healthy life. A bit of lifting heavy things, a bit of HIIT, and a bit of endurance work.

 

[bigbottom]

You didnt ask me, but here is my response.

Hey, I'm glad for the feedback. Thanks.

...

Going back a few posts, the ones that discussed messaging: Another place where messaging might be falling down is in recent reports that weight loss is, I don't know, 90% calorie reduction and 10% exercise/movement. Or thereabouts. Been a little of it in this thread from the HealthGuys.

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

I know from my own recent experiences that exercise & movement matters plenty in a "use it or lose it" sense -- maybe not for weight loss so much, but for continuing to be able to do the basic things you did when younger (e.g. walk around for a 30-minute stretch, climb a ladder, take a few flights of stairs, etc.).

Exercise was a huge component of my most recent diet, and remains a huge part of my ability to stay at my goal weight post-diet.

 

[Doug B]

We have two large baskets full of one side gummy type stuff, one side chocolate along with a big Costco sized jug of 3 different types of M&M's, Skittles and jelly beans. We go through $10k worth of candy a month. I've seen folks double fisting coffee cups full of M&M's. It's ridiculous. We also now have a Pepsi & Coke dispenser ala any restaurant you've ever been in.

I'd bet money, too, that there are obese people at that office who'll skip lunch and then load up on the candy later on in the day.

Is that wrong? Seems smart saving those calories

It's kind of a maladaptive food trap that a lot of obese people fall into: "I skipped breakfast, so I can load up at lunch/dinner". "I skipped lunch, so a big fried-chicken dinner is fine". And so on. Not assuming this ... it's behavior I see up close and also have engaged in myself.

HealthGuys might need to check my assumptions here:

What seems to happen is that someone, say, skips lunch and then eats 600 kcal worth of candy at 3 p.m. Calories are saved compared to, say, eating a chimichanga and sides for lunch (~700 kcal) and then 210 kcal worth of M&Ms (the "share size" bag) a few hours later. But your body missed out on actual nutrients from skipping lunch, the 600 kcal of candy didn't put a dent in that ... so what's dinner, dessert, and pre-bedtime snack going to look like?

 

[Doug B]

Exercise was a huge component of my most recent diet, and remains a huge part of my ability to stay at my goal weight post-diet.

Maybe what I was seeing was that "good exercise + bad diet = no weight loss" while "little exercise + great diet = significant weight loss". Sound about right?

I'm talking completely independently of overall cardiovascular health here.

 

[bigbottom]

Exercise was a huge component of my most recent diet, and remains a huge part of my ability to stay at my goal weight post-diet.

Maybe what I was seeing was that "good exercise + bad diet = no weight loss" while "little exercise + great diet = significant weight loss". Sound about right?

I'm talking completely independently of overall cardiovascular health here.

Yeah, there’s probably truth to that.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Yes. Trying to make a pie chart of what constitutes a healthy person and dividing it up into "Diet" and "Exercise" is an interesting discussion.

 

[Joe Bryant]

How much is Exercise and how much is Diet? https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/healthy-person-diet-and-exercise-how-much-of-each.812732/

 

[belljr]

We have two large baskets full of one side gummy type stuff, one side chocolate along with a big Costco sized jug of 3 different types of M&M's, Skittles and jelly beans. We go through $10k worth of candy a month. I've seen folks double fisting coffee cups full of M&M's. It's ridiculous. We also now have a Pepsi & Coke dispenser ala any restaurant you've ever been in.

I'd bet money, too, that there are obese people at that office who'll skip lunch and then load up on the candy later on in the day.

Is that wrong? Seems smart saving those calories

It's kind of a maladaptive food trap that a lot of obese people fall into: "I skipped breakfast, so I can load up at lunch/dinner". "I skipped lunch, so a big fried-chicken dinner is fine". And so on. Not assuming this ... it's behavior I see up close and also have engaged in myself.

HealthGuys might need to check my assumptions here:

What seems to happen is that someone, say, skips lunch and then eats 600 kcal worth of candy at 3 p.m. Calories are saved compared to, say, eating a chimichanga and sides for lunch (~700 kcal) and then 210 kcal worth of M&Ms (the "share size" bag) a few hours later. But your body missed out on actual nutrients from skipping lunch, the 600 kcal of candy didn't put a dent in that ... so what's dinner, dessert, and pre-bedtime snack going to look like?

That was a bit tongue and cheek even though that's my move

 

[JAA]

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

Right. As it turns out, exercise is the only* thing that matters.

Spoiler

* - UNLESS YOUR LITTLE JOHNNY HAS A PEANUT ALLERGY!!

 

[JAA]

For 95+% of people counting calories let alone macros (% fat, carb, protein) are not important. What is important is the proliferation, almost glorification, of a sedentary lifestyle. We need to move more. Any movement, like really, anything but sitting or laying down. If we could just start moving more, everything would work itself out. Like literally everything.

Spoiler

For the most part, people don't eat and drink while they are moving

If you read Attia (and every medical article that comes out, it seems), one thing that we can readily say is that exercise is the best panacea we have for a healthy life. A bit of lifting heavy things, a bit of HIIT, and a bit of endurance work.

Your words aren't wrong, but will fall flat to most folks. For the masses, its really easy. Just move. Any movement, more of it. Simple basic anything. Just do more of it.

I am a betting man, the end game for Garmin like companies will simply be some device which tracks MOVING vs NOT-MOVING. It will set a daily measurement and tell you to move more. Just. That. Simple.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

My company moved into a new building a few years ago. It was a long time coming and much needed. One of the traditions we had at the old building was candy on Friday's. It was a fun way to celebrate the end of the week, most it was wrapped candy but there were M&M's and Skittles that we would pour into Dixie cups. Like everything, it was well intentioned when it started but folks started pushing the limits. You'd see large folk walking around with 5-6 Dixie cups chuck full, people started requesting certain candies, then it went from Friday afternoon after 1PM to all day Friday to all day everyday. Fast forward to now. We have two large baskets full of one side gummy type stuff, one side chocolate along with a big Costco sized jug of 3 different types of M&M's, Skittles and jelly beans. We go through $10k worth of candy a month. I've seen folks double fisting coffee cups full of M&M's. It's ridiculous. We also now have a Pepsi & Coke dispenser ala any restaurant you've ever been in.

Yet the company has signs every where espousing a healthy life style, talk about it all the time in group meetings, go get regular check ups, all the talky things. It's a crazy dichotomy with some of the ridiculously large folks here that can barely walk to the candy counter and back to their cube

This post reminds me of those scenes in the movie Wall-E where everyone is stuck in their chair watching TV, using voice commands while the robots zip around refreshing their snacks.

 

[Joe Bryant]

For 95+% of people counting calories let alone macros (% fat, carb, protein) are not important. What is important is the proliferation, almost glorification, of a sedentary lifestyle. We need to move more. Any movement, like really, anything but sitting or laying down. If we could just start moving more, everything would work itself out. Like literally everything.

Spoiler

For the most part, people don't eat and drink while they are moving

If you read Attia (and every medical article that comes out, it seems), one thing that we can readily say is that exercise is the best panacea we have for a healthy life. A bit of lifting heavy things, a bit of HIIT, and a bit of endurance work.

Your words aren't wrong, but will fall flat to most folks. For the masses, its really easy. Just move. Any movement, more of it. Simple basic anything. Just do more of it.

I am a betting man, the end game for Garmin like companies will simply be some device which tracks MOVING vs NOT-MOVING. It will set a daily measurement and tell you to move more. Just. That. Simple.

Agreed. The Oura ring already has a thing that if you're sitting too long, you get a notification asking if you need to stretch your legs a bit.

 

[belljr]

For 95+% of people counting calories let alone macros (% fat, carb, protein) are not important. What is important is the proliferation, almost glorification, of a sedentary lifestyle. We need to move more. Any movement, like really, anything but sitting or laying down. If we could just start moving more, everything would work itself out. Like literally everything.

Spoiler

For the most part, people don't eat and drink while they are moving

If you read Attia (and every medical article that comes out, it seems), one thing that we can readily say is that exercise is the best panacea we have for a healthy life. A bit of lifting heavy things, a bit of HIIT, and a bit of endurance work.

Your words aren't wrong, but will fall flat to most folks. For the masses, its really easy. Just move. Any movement, more of it. Simple basic anything. Just do more of it.

I am a betting man, the end game for Garmin like companies will simply be some device which tracks MOVING vs NOT-MOVING. It will set a daily measurement and tell you to move more. Just. That. Simple.

Don't the watches already do that? Mine tells me to get up and start moving

 

[beer 30]

My company moved into a new building a few years ago. It was a long time coming and much needed. One of the traditions we had at the old building was candy on Friday's. It was a fun way to celebrate the end of the week, most it was wrapped candy but there were M&M's and Skittles that we would pour into Dixie cups. Like everything, it was well intentioned when it started but folks started pushing the limits. You'd see large folk walking around with 5-6 Dixie cups chuck full, people started requesting certain candies, then it went from Friday afternoon after 1PM to all day Friday to all day everyday. Fast forward to now. We have two large baskets full of one side gummy type stuff, one side chocolate along with a big Costco sized jug of 3 different types of M&M's, Skittles and jelly beans. We go through $10k worth of candy a month. I've seen folks double fisting coffee cups full of M&M's. It's ridiculous. We also now have a Pepsi & Coke dispenser ala any restaurant you've ever been in.

Yet the company has signs every where espousing a healthy life style, talk about it all the time in group meetings, go get regular check ups, all the talky things. It's a crazy dichotomy with some of the ridiculously large folks here that can barely walk to the candy counter and back to their cube

This post reminds me of those scenes in the movie Wall-E where everyone is stuck in their chair watching TV, using voice commands while the robots zip around refreshing their snacks.

Dude, we talk about that all the time. I've literally walked behind folks so large, they put them on the first floor and they huff & puff to get 100 yards so they can get their "cups". Like at what point do you think, "maybe oughta push back on the cups of sugar and mix in a salad"? I don't what motivation it would take for some folks but living like that has got to be miserable. You're never clean no matter how often you hose down, there's just gonna be spots you're never getting to unless you get something like a long handled brush

 

[massraider]

Johann Hari said he stopped for a while and it was a little scary how severely he rebounded in not being full and wanting to eat a lot.

Dietary changes are the linchpin to getting off the drug.

Sugar compared to cocaine

When trying to kick something that addictive, taking a little daily is not a great idea. The signals and cravings go away, but they don't if people "cut down" on sugar, or crank two Coke Zeros every afternoon. If you cut down, it's always a battle. You need to cut it all out in order to get past the withdrawal and cravings.

Man, if I thought the plan was to get everyone eating the Mediterranean diet (or some variation) in combo with Ozempic, I would be front and center, Team Ozempic. I think it's a powerful motivational tool, just massive.

Someone switching to a responsible diet, taking these drugs, and increasing their activity in any way whatsoever, will see massive gains, i have no doubt.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Right on cue, the New England Journal released a review of diets today. Can't link full text article, but these are their conclusions:

Although many diets have been developed with the initial aim of controlling body weight, dietary composition also has important health effects that are independent of the effects on adiposity. An overall inspection of the literature suggests that plant-based diets with a moderate lipid content, characterized by the consumption of vegetables, fruits, whole-grain cereals, legumes or pulses, nuts, and unsaturated fats, with low-to-moderate amounts of poultry and seafood and low quantities of red meat and sugar, may offer substantial health benefits. The Mediterranean diet may be an option, at least for some population groups.

And if one could take a poll of reasonable nutritionists and scientists a decade ago, they would say something similar. The one caveat I would add is don't overdo it on fruit. Eating a bunch of natural sugar is better than HFCS, but it still sends signals to your body craving more sugar. It's still sugar.

It's not this incredible difficult puzzle.

Issues with fructose are overblown, a consequence of sugar being blamed for all our nutritional problems. Fruit intake doesn’t increase the risk of diabetes, or obesity, for example. And the fiber content of many types of fruit is quite satiating. I guess smoothies can be calorie bombs, but that is way down the list of my nutritional concerns.

 

[Doug B]

Issues with fructose are overblown, a consequence of sugar being blamed for all our nutritional problems.

Sometimes, I wonder if the way-out-there new-age film What the Bleep Do We Know!? is secretly about nutritional science

 

[Terminalxylem]

Sub 20% guy…..

I know you all are just jabbing at each other a bit, but it's kind of a demonstration of what I just posted about: Thin guy negging on somewhat-less-thin guy over body-fat percentage. Both of you probably look like a starving underwear models in a room full of obese people.

Related: In the world of "people who are serious about fitness" ... how serious are the "idea wars" about best diet, best fitness ideas, etc. Does it ever get to the point of profound disrespect? Do the "Mediterranean diet" guys think the Keto guys are loons?

I think humans should focus on resting heart rate and VO2 max. IMHO those are the only 2 metrics which should count. Waaaaaaaay to many different body structures out there, none of which are "wrong".

My VO2is between 39-40 (58 years old), so not too bad. My resting HR is around 48-52. Funny thing is, yesterday went for my bi-annual physical. BP was 114/64. O2 was 98%. Pulse was 48. Nurse did it twice asking if the low HR was normal...

My resting HR is around 45. I get the same thing at the doctor - distinct impression that this is way out of the ordinary.

Yeah, obviously there’s selection bias in play, but the number of people volunteering resting HR below 50 and vO2 max above 50 in these threads is astonishing. Both of those values are in the upper 5% of fitness for middle aged dudes.

And to pile on fat-shaming @DA RAIDERS, 99 is the upper end of “normal” for resting HR. Kinda like 21% is considered high normal for middle aged men (there’s controversy here, but play along).

But I’d never pick that HR as a target for CV fitness, especially if someone was having chest pain.

Looked at the year average for resting heart rate. 57

That’s great, but I was trying to use an analogy, comparing a HR in the 90s to body fat % of 20. Though both are considered high “normal”, neither is ideal.

I understood. I was double checking my claim of low 50s. 50s would be more accurate.

And if my body composition is equivalent to a resting heart rate of 90, I’m doomed. Give me all the pills and staple my stomach @nd remove half of it while you’re at it. I can’t imagine that 19.5% bf is equivalent to a resting 90 hr. Maybe I just don’t understand.

I don't think it's that dire. Still, I'll wager you'll feel better a few pounds lighter, with a lower body fat %.

I would chime in and say you should spend 0 seconds looking at any scale unless you are worrying about power-to-weight calculations for climbing. Weight is a useless measurement unless you want to get dipped in a pool to get a true reading, not of your fat, but of your exoskeletal mass. This value can help you determine your actual desired weight. Backing into desired weight with height is silly.

I would like to make a hot take since im getting punchy here: 99% of MD doctors have no clue about athletic physical fitness. 99% of MD doctors know how to treat severely ill people and make them almost normal. They have no clue how to take athletes and make them stronger athletes.

You’re missing the context of my discussion with @DA RAIDERS. He has a bum knee, which is the main reason I’m suggesting he lose weight.

And I’m pushing back on the idea that 20% body fat is an acceptable goal for an active person, just because he’s weighed the same “forever”. By virtue of aging, he’s almost certainly lost muscle, and gained fat as the years have passed. So he may want to recalibrate his goal weight/body composition.

Despite its limitations, summarily dismissing BMI’s value ignores a bunch of literature showing it correlates to health. It’s a quick and dirty tool, yes, but not a useless one. The general public has no access to hydrostatic weighing, and that level of precision is overkill in all but the most controlled settings.

Lastly, most physicians receive no formal training in nutrition, or physical fitness. They’re not exercise physiologists, athletic trainers, or nutritionists, after all. But 99% is obnoxiously overstated.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Just as an aside -- and this could be a whole 'nother thread -- a surprising amount of obese people (that I know closely) skip breakfast. One really only eats between around 3:00 - 10:00 p.m. except on weekends. However, she needs the salty snacks, needs dessert, and gets "hangry!" frequently.

Skipping breakfast has been associated with increased mortality in one study, but I don’t know if it correlates to obesity.

Quick google search

Globally, increasing rates of obesity are one of the most important health issues. The association between breakfast skipping and body weight is contradictory between cross-sectional and interventional studies. This systematic review and meta-analysis aims to summarize this association based on observational longitudinal studies. We included prospective studies on breakfast skipping and overweight/obesity or weight change in adults. The literature was searched until September 2020 in PubMed and Web of Science. Summary risk ratios (RRs) or β coefficients with a 95% confidence interval (CI), respectively, were estimated in pairwise meta-analyses by applying a random-effects model. In total, nine studies were included in the systematic review and three of them were included in the meta-analyses. The meta-analyses indicated an 11% increased RR for overweight/obesity when breakfast was skipped on ≥3 days per week compared to ≤2 days per week (95% CI: 1.04, 1.19, n = two studies). The meta-analysis on body mass index (BMI) change displayed no difference between breakfast skipping and eating (β = −0.02; 95% CI: −0.05, 0.01; n = two studies). This study provides minimal evidence that breakfast skipping might lead to weight gain and the onset of overweight and obesity.

Personally, I skip breakfast all the time, and have maintained a healthy weight. But I also think being “hangry” is easily avoided, if you keep active.

 

[Terminalxylem]

You didnt ask me, but here is my response.

Hey, I'm glad for the feedback. Thanks.

...

Going back a few posts, the ones that discussed messaging: Another place where messaging might be falling down is in recent reports that weight loss is, I don't know, 90% calorie reduction and 10% exercise/movement. Or thereabouts. Been a little of it in this thread from the HealthGuys.

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

I know from my own recent experiences that exercise & movement matters plenty in a "use it or lose it" sense -- maybe not for weight loss so much, but for continuing to be able to do the basic things you did when younger (e.g. walk around for a 30-minute stretch, climb a ladder, take a few flights of stairs, etc.).

The dogma has always been: proper diet is critical for weight loss/achieving a healthy weight, but activity level helps you maintain it.

Exercise is far more important for promoting longevity and maximizing healthspan.

 

[AAABatteries]

10-12% is not normal

12-15% is more along the lines of normal.

Fat is a critical component to the longevity of the human race

10-12 is a lower, healthy bf percentage, not uncommon among young males, and some older recreational athletes. I think @DA RAIDERS identifies as the latter, which is why I picked that as a goal. I wanted to show the target weight he believed unrealistic wasn’t completely off the mark. I mean, he weighed that much when he was younger, so clearly it’s possible.

Actually, it’s always interesting hearing people dismiss target weights, often followed by “I haven’t weighed that much since college!?!” Ummmm, OK, how do you think body composition should change from young adulthood to middle age? We don’t typically gain muscle or bone mass after college, so what’s left?

Also, can you expound upon the longevity comment?

10% body fat is simply not "healthy" for today, it is more of a workout warrior. Here is a good article on fat and the evolution of the human race: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ns-piled-pounds-lost-muscle-mass-evolved.html

When I say longevity, I mean the human race would have died out without fat (as noted above). Fat is where we store our energy. We require stored energy to be able to endure chasing our prey, day after day, tiring them out, then eating them. Carbs are great for quickly converting energy, but arent the right solution for continuing the human race.

Agree some fat is essential for survival, but I don’t think the optimal amount for modern living conditions is known. But yes, I was describing low-end %, to a poster who has repeatedly mentioned his commitment to regular exercise, while settling on ~20% body fat. Essentially, the body fat I’d expect from a workout warrior.

Strongly disagree about the importance of carbohydrates for continuing our race. Most of the healthiest food are carbohydrate-rich (fruits and veggies), but the hyper-protein, “good fat” keto craze has thrown out that factoid with the bath water of processed foods.

Every diet of long-lived populations includes at least half its calories from carbohydrates. Traditional Okinawans, at one point the longest live people on the planet, consume over 80%, with roughly 2/3 of their calories coming a single, carbohydrate-rich food: sweet potatoes.

Carbs are important. We /should/ be getting our carbs from fiber rich foods. Instead though, we are getting our carbs from processed grain and sugar. That is bad, very bad.

We should be eating some lean protein in 1-2 handful amounts and getting the rest of our nutrients from fiber rich foods like whole fruit and vegetables.

I’m not even sure a couple handfuls of lean protein (per day, presumably) is necessary. Okinawans eat less than 10% of their calories from protein, with roughly 10:1 carbohydrate to protein ratio.

I realize they are an extreme, but using them as an example is much less of a stretch than saying carbohydrates (again, not sugary, processed garbage) aren’t the right solution for continuing the human race.

Is the “10% of their calories from protein” statement from a recent study? I lived in Oki from 2012-2017 and would have guessed that the average protein intake was considerably more than 10%. It seemed like meat was a large part of their diet. Especially pork…

Yeah, contemporary Okinawans have slowly adapted some Western eating patterns, but most of the stuff I've read refers to their traditional diet, studied around 2000, or earlier. And they were looking at dietary habits of the very elderly, specifically.

But none of the so-called "blue zones" eat low carbohydrate, high animal protein/fat diets. People who do that, like Inuits and Masai, don't live nearly as long.

My only issue with folks dismissing low carb diets out of hand is the similar issue you (and I) have with those dismissing these weight loss drugs. If someone has shown they aren’t capable of eating a Mediterranean diet or plant based diet then a low carb diet can be a good alternative and produce much better results than the SAD. Too many times we let optimal get in the way of improvements.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Sub 20% guy…..

I know you all are just jabbing at each other a bit, but it's kind of a demonstration of what I just posted about: Thin guy negging on somewhat-less-thin guy over body-fat percentage. Both of you probably look like a starving underwear models in a room full of obese people.

Related: In the world of "people who are serious about fitness" ... how serious are the "idea wars" about best diet, best fitness ideas, etc. Does it ever get to the point of profound disrespect? Do the "Mediterranean diet" guys think the Keto guys are loons?

I think humans should focus on resting heart rate and VO2 max. IMHO those are the only 2 metrics which should count. Waaaaaaaay to many different body structures out there, none of which are "wrong".

My VO2is between 39-40 (58 years old), so not too bad. My resting HR is around 48-52. Funny thing is, yesterday went for my bi-annual physical. BP was 114/64. O2 was 98%. Pulse was 48. Nurse did it twice asking if the low HR was normal...

My resting HR is around 45. I get the same thing at the doctor - distinct impression that this is way out of the ordinary.

Yeah, obviously there’s selection bias in play, but the number of people volunteering resting HR below 50 and vO2 max above 50 in these threads is astonishing. Both of those values are in the upper 5% of fitness for middle aged dudes.

And to pile on fat-shaming @DA RAIDERS, 99 is the upper end of “normal” for resting HR. Kinda like 21% is considered high normal for middle aged men (there’s controversy here, but play along).

But I’d never pick that HR as a target for CV fitness, especially if someone was having chest pain.

Exactly why I didnt choose some random HR.

Everyone has a resting HR. Also, VO2 max is not a specific HR, but HR over time.

And to clarify the knowledge you're dropping, vO2 max is not a measure of HR at all. It represents maximal oxygen consumption during physical exertion, which in turn reflects cardiopulmonary fitness. The units are mL oxygen consumed per kg body weight, per minute. Not beats per minute.

While it's most accurately assessed via cardiopulmonary exercise testing, which directly measures gas exchange during exertion, availability of such tests is limited, and they are expensive. So there are several formulas available to estimate vO2 max instead. One method involves the ratio of maximum HR to resting HR, another uses distance covered while running, still another uses post-exertional HR, body weight and age. Like BMI, those estimates aren't perfect, but they offer practical alternatives for the real world, and are good enough for most applications.

Nowadays, smart watches estimate vO2 max from HR at sub maximal exertion. So even though HR is incorporated in many vO2 max estimates, it isn't a surrogate for HR over time, but more a reflection of the connectedness of cardiopulmonary physiology.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

Right. As it turns out, exercise is the only* thing that matters.

Spoiler

* - UNLESS YOUR LITTLE JOHNNY HAS A PEANUT ALLERGY!!

Wait, are you Peter Attia?

Help me understand your stance. Do you believe exercising alone can reverse our obesity epidemic?

 

[Terminalxylem]

10-12% is not normal

12-15% is more along the lines of normal.

Fat is a critical component to the longevity of the human race

10-12 is a lower, healthy bf percentage, not uncommon among young males, and some older recreational athletes. I think @DA RAIDERS identifies as the latter, which is why I picked that as a goal. I wanted to show the target weight he believed unrealistic wasn’t completely off the mark. I mean, he weighed that much when he was younger, so clearly it’s possible.

Actually, it’s always interesting hearing people dismiss target weights, often followed by “I haven’t weighed that much since college!?!” Ummmm, OK, how do you think body composition should change from young adulthood to middle age? We don’t typically gain muscle or bone mass after college, so what’s left?

Also, can you expound upon the longevity comment?

10% body fat is simply not "healthy" for today, it is more of a workout warrior. Here is a good article on fat and the evolution of the human race: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ns-piled-pounds-lost-muscle-mass-evolved.html

When I say longevity, I mean the human race would have died out without fat (as noted above). Fat is where we store our energy. We require stored energy to be able to endure chasing our prey, day after day, tiring them out, then eating them. Carbs are great for quickly converting energy, but arent the right solution for continuing the human race.

Agree some fat is essential for survival, but I don’t think the optimal amount for modern living conditions is known. But yes, I was describing low-end %, to a poster who has repeatedly mentioned his commitment to regular exercise, while settling on ~20% body fat. Essentially, the body fat I’d expect from a workout warrior.

Strongly disagree about the importance of carbohydrates for continuing our race. Most of the healthiest food are carbohydrate-rich (fruits and veggies), but the hyper-protein, “good fat” keto craze has thrown out that factoid with the bath water of processed foods.

Every diet of long-lived populations includes at least half its calories from carbohydrates. Traditional Okinawans, at one point the longest live people on the planet, consume over 80%, with roughly 2/3 of their calories coming a single, carbohydrate-rich food: sweet potatoes.

Carbs are important. We /should/ be getting our carbs from fiber rich foods. Instead though, we are getting our carbs from processed grain and sugar. That is bad, very bad.

We should be eating some lean protein in 1-2 handful amounts and getting the rest of our nutrients from fiber rich foods like whole fruit and vegetables.

I’m not even sure a couple handfuls of lean protein (per day, presumably) is necessary. Okinawans eat less than 10% of their calories from protein, with roughly 10:1 carbohydrate to protein ratio.

I realize they are an extreme, but using them as an example is much less of a stretch than saying carbohydrates (again, not sugary, processed garbage) aren’t the right solution for continuing the human race.

Is the “10% of their calories from protein” statement from a recent study? I lived in Oki from 2012-2017 and would have guessed that the average protein intake was considerably more than 10%. It seemed like meat was a large part of their diet. Especially pork…

Yeah, contemporary Okinawans have slowly adapted some Western eating patterns, but most of the stuff I've read refers to their traditional diet, studied around 2000, or earlier. And they were looking at dietary habits of the very elderly, specifically.

But none of the so-called "blue zones" eat low carbohydrate, high animal protein/fat diets. People who do that, like Inuits and Masai, don't live nearly as long.

My only issue with folks dismissing low carb diets out of hand is the similar issue you (and I) have with those dismissing these weight loss drugs. If someone has shown they aren’t capable of eating a Mediterranean diet or plant based diet then a low carb diet can be a good alternative and produce much better results than the SAD. Too many times we let optimal get in the way of improvements.

Yeah, I've come around to the idea that the best diet is one that is sustainable, while achieving a healthy weight.

What I don't accept is the demonization of all carbohydrates, and suggestion a bunch of nutrient poor foods, which are high in animal protein/fat, are preferable for long term health.

So sure, if eating typical keto fare keeps you slim, that's better than being obese. But just like @massraider has argued about weight loss drugs, it's not exactly clear those choosing very low carbohydrate diets will ever be incentivized to eat healthier.

And most importantly, I don't think keto is a sustainable for the vast majority of people.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

You didnt ask me, but here is my response.

Hey, I'm glad for the feedback. Thanks.

...

Going back a few posts, the ones that discussed messaging: Another place where messaging might be falling down is in recent reports that weight loss is, I don't know, 90% calorie reduction and 10% exercise/movement. Or thereabouts. Been a little of it in this thread from the HealthGuys.

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

I know from my own recent experiences that exercise & movement matters plenty in a "use it or lose it" sense -- maybe not for weight loss so much, but for continuing to be able to do the basic things you did when younger (e.g. walk around for a 30-minute stretch, climb a ladder, take a few flights of stairs, etc.).

Guilty.

I say that diet is more important. But I definitely say that one must exercise. And my version of exercise means that you’re gasping for breath. my FIL, a work out nut, said “you stop moving, you die”

 

[DA RAIDERS]

For 95+% of people counting calories let alone macros (% fat, carb, protein) are not important. What is important is the proliferation, almost glorification, of a sedentary lifestyle. We need to move more. Any movement, like really, anything but sitting or laying down. If we could just start moving more, everything would work itself out. Like literally everything.

Spoiler

For the most part, people don't eat and drink while they are moving

If you read Attia (and every medical article that comes out, it seems), one thing that we can readily say is that exercise is the best panacea we have for a healthy life. A bit of lifting heavy things, a bit of HIIT, and a bit of endurance work.

Throw in make your own food….and who knows what could happen.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

For 95+% of people counting calories let alone macros (% fat, carb, protein) are not important. What is important is the proliferation, almost glorification, of a sedentary lifestyle. We need to move more. Any movement, like really, anything but sitting or laying down. If we could just start moving more, everything would work itself out. Like literally everything.

Spoiler

For the most part, people don't eat and drink while they are moving

If you read Attia (and every medical article that comes out, it seems), one thing that we can readily say is that exercise is the best panacea we have for a healthy life. A bit of lifting heavy things, a bit of HIIT, and a bit of endurance work.

Your words aren't wrong, but will fall flat to most folks. For the masses, its really easy. Just move. Any movement, more of it. Simple basic anything. Just do more of it.

I am a betting man, the end game for Garmin like companies will simply be some device which tracks MOVING vs NOT-MOVING. It will set a daily measurement and tell you to move more. Just. That. Simple.

Agreed. The Oura ring already has a thing that if you're sitting too long, you get a notification asking if you need to stretch your legs a bit.

Apple Watch does this as well. The metrics are wonky but it tells you to move. Set your stand goal to 18 hours or more because Apple doesn’t count hours like the rest of us.

 

[Terminalxylem]

You didnt ask me, but here is my response.

Hey, I'm glad for the feedback. Thanks.

...

Going back a few posts, the ones that discussed messaging: Another place where messaging might be falling down is in recent reports that weight loss is, I don't know, 90% calorie reduction and 10% exercise/movement. Or thereabouts. Been a little of it in this thread from the HealthGuys.

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

I know from my own recent experiences that exercise & movement matters plenty in a "use it or lose it" sense -- maybe not for weight loss so much, but for continuing to be able to do the basic things you did when younger (e.g. walk around for a 30-minute stretch, climb a ladder, take a few flights of stairs, etc.).

Guilty.

I say that diet is more important. But I definitely say that one must exercise. And my version of exercise means that you’re gasping for breath. my FIL, a work out nut, said “you stop moving, you die”

Yep, I've frequently described myself as a shark, alluding to death from inactivity.

The next time we ski, I'll make sure to crack the whip. There are some longer side country areas in Niseko perfect for gasping, though we should have avi training first.

But before any of that happens, fix that knee!

 

[DA RAIDERS]

You didnt ask me, but here is my response.

Hey, I'm glad for the feedback. Thanks.

...

Going back a few posts, the ones that discussed messaging: Another place where messaging might be falling down is in recent reports that weight loss is, I don't know, 90% calorie reduction and 10% exercise/movement. Or thereabouts. Been a little of it in this thread from the HealthGuys.

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

I know from my own recent experiences that exercise & movement matters plenty in a "use it or lose it" sense -- maybe not for weight loss so much, but for continuing to be able to do the basic things you did when younger (e.g. walk around for a 30-minute stretch, climb a ladder, take a few flights of stairs, etc.).

Guilty.

I say that diet is more important. But I definitely say that one must exercise. And my version of exercise means that you’re gasping for breath. my FIL, a work out nut, said “you stop moving, you die”

Yep, I've frequently described myself as a shark, alluding to death from inactivity.

The next time we ski, I'll make sure to crack the whip. There are some longer side country areas in Niseko perfect for gasping, though we should have avi training first.

But before any of that happens, fix that knee!

Bring it on! Sounds awesome.

 

[Sand]

Throw in make your own food….and who knows what could happen.

Food poisoning, botulism, amputation, and death?

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Throw in make your own food….and who knows what could happen.

Food poisoning, botulism, amputation, and death?

what are all ways to/lose some weight?

 

[notoriousbill]

Magic Spoon review. https://www.bonappetit.com/story/magic-spoon-cereal-review

This seems like a great business idea.

Good to know. I bought 4 boxes on Amazon of the PB flavor...

Actually surprised. It is pretty good. Not sweet at all. It will curb my cereal cravings. Better than a bowl of Captain Crunch and the roof of my mouth is much happier too. lol

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Right on cue, the New England Journal released a review of diets today. Can't link full text article, but these are their conclusions:

Although many diets have been developed with the initial aim of controlling body weight, dietary composition also has important health effects that are independent of the effects on adiposity. An overall inspection of the literature suggests that plant-based diets with a moderate lipid content, characterized by the consumption of vegetables, fruits, whole-grain cereals, legumes or pulses, nuts, and unsaturated fats, with low-to-moderate amounts of poultry and seafood and low quantities of red meat and sugar, may offer substantial health benefits. The Mediterranean diet may be an option, at least for some population groups.

And if one could take a poll of reasonable nutritionists and scientists a decade ago, they would say something similar. The one caveat I would add is don't overdo it on fruit. Eating a bunch of natural sugar is better than HFCS, but it still sends signals to your body craving more sugar. It's still sugar.

It's not this incredible difficult puzzle.

Issues with fructose are overblown, a consequence of sugar being blamed for all our nutritional problems. Fruit intake doesn’t increase the risk of diabetes, or obesity, for example. And the fiber content of many types of fruit is quite satiating. I guess smoothies can be calorie bombs, but that is way down the list of my nutritional concerns.

I think there are literally zero people in the United States who are fat because they eat too much fruit. That's a completely fictional character.

 

[Oracle]

10-12% is not normal

12-15% is more along the lines of normal.

Fat is a critical component to the longevity of the human race

10-12 is a lower, healthy bf percentage, not uncommon among young males, and some older recreational athletes. I think @DA RAIDERS identifies as the latter, which is why I picked that as a goal. I wanted to show the target weight he believed unrealistic wasn’t completely off the mark. I mean, he weighed that much when he was younger, so clearly it’s possible.

Actually, it’s always interesting hearing people dismiss target weights, often followed by “I haven’t weighed that much since college!?!” Ummmm, OK, how do you think body composition should change from young adulthood to middle age? We don’t typically gain muscle or bone mass after college, so what’s left?

Also, can you expound upon the longevity comment?

10% body fat is simply not "healthy" for today, it is more of a workout warrior. Here is a good article on fat and the evolution of the human race: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...ns-piled-pounds-lost-muscle-mass-evolved.html

When I say longevity, I mean the human race would have died out without fat (as noted above). Fat is where we store our energy. We require stored energy to be able to endure chasing our prey, day after day, tiring them out, then eating them. Carbs are great for quickly converting energy, but arent the right solution for continuing the human race.

Agree some fat is essential for survival, but I don’t think the optimal amount for modern living conditions is known. But yes, I was describing low-end %, to a poster who has repeatedly mentioned his commitment to regular exercise, while settling on ~20% body fat. Essentially, the body fat I’d expect from a workout warrior.

Strongly disagree about the importance of carbohydrates for continuing our race. Most of the healthiest food are carbohydrate-rich (fruits and veggies), but the hyper-protein, “good fat” keto craze has thrown out that factoid with the bath water of processed foods.

Every diet of long-lived populations includes at least half its calories from carbohydrates. Traditional Okinawans, at one point the longest live people on the planet, consume over 80%, with roughly 2/3 of their calories coming a single, carbohydrate-rich food: sweet potatoes.

Carbs are important. We /should/ be getting our carbs from fiber rich foods. Instead though, we are getting our carbs from processed grain and sugar. That is bad, very bad.

We should be eating some lean protein in 1-2 handful amounts and getting the rest of our nutrients from fiber rich foods like whole fruit and vegetables.

I’m not even sure a couple handfuls of lean protein (per day, presumably) is necessary. Okinawans eat less than 10% of their calories from protein, with roughly 10:1 carbohydrate to protein ratio.

I realize they are an extreme, but using them as an example is much less of a stretch than saying carbohydrates (again, not sugary, processed garbage) aren’t the right solution for continuing the human race.

Is the “10% of their calories from protein” statement from a recent study? I lived in Oki from 2012-2017 and would have guessed that the average protein intake was considerably more than 10%. It seemed like meat was a large part of their diet. Especially pork…

Yeah, contemporary Okinawans have slowly adapted some Western eating patterns, but most of the stuff I've read refers to their traditional diet, studied around 2000, or earlier. And they were looking at dietary habits of the very elderly, specifically.

But none of the so-called "blue zones" eat low carbohydrate, high animal protein/fat diets. People who do that, like Inuits and Masai, don't live nearly as long.

Yeah…that follows with what I see on the street.

Kind of a side tangent, but something I also see is that the Japanese start looking their age around 55/60, and it’s not gradual. I understand that aging for Caucasian’s occur earlier, but it also seems to be more gradual . Also, I’ve noticed an extreme amount of older Asians walk almost hunchbacked. I wonder how painful this is and if it’s caused due to the mindset of no sun exposure. The hunchback look gets more severe as they get older. I also wonder what their quality of life is based upon the quantity of life.

 

[massraider]

I think there are literally zero people in the United States who are fat because they eat too much fruit. That's a completely fictional character.

I agree. Who said that?

Issues with fructose are overblown, a consequence of sugar being blamed for all our nutritional problems. Fruit intake doesn’t increase the risk of diabetes, or obesity, for example. And the fiber content of many types of fruit is quite satiating. I guess smoothies can be calorie bombs, but that is way down the list of my nutritional concerns.

I'm talking about the signals that get sent to the brain, the dopamine release. Someone who is trying to lose weight, and struggling with cravings. If someone is trying to avoid excess sugar, a glass of OJ is not the best thing for them. Is it bad for them? No. Orange juice Will not cause obesity.
Will it make them more likely to crave sweet things, and maybe make a reasonable diet harder to maintain?

Yes, IMO.

 

[JAA]

For 95+% of people counting calories let alone macros (% fat, carb, protein) are not important. What is important is the proliferation, almost glorification, of a sedentary lifestyle. We need to move more. Any movement, like really, anything but sitting or laying down. If we could just start moving more, everything would work itself out. Like literally everything.

Spoiler

For the most part, people don't eat and drink while they are moving

If you read Attia (and every medical article that comes out, it seems), one thing that we can readily say is that exercise is the best panacea we have for a healthy life. A bit of lifting heavy things, a bit of HIIT, and a bit of endurance work.

Your words aren't wrong, but will fall flat to most folks. For the masses, its really easy. Just move. Any movement, more of it. Simple basic anything. Just do more of it.

I am a betting man, the end game for Garmin like companies will simply be some device which tracks MOVING vs NOT-MOVING. It will set a daily measurement and tell you to move more. Just. That. Simple.

Don't the watches already do that? Mine tells me to get up and start moving

 

[JAA]

You didnt ask me, but here is my response.

Hey, I'm glad for the feedback. Thanks.

...

Going back a few posts, the ones that discussed messaging: Another place where messaging might be falling down is in recent reports that weight loss is, I don't know, 90% calorie reduction and 10% exercise/movement. Or thereabouts. Been a little of it in this thread from the HealthGuys.

Anyway, you know how that particular message gets interpreted all too often? "Exercise doesn't matter".

I know from my own recent experiences that exercise & movement matters plenty in a "use it or lose it" sense -- maybe not for weight loss so much, but for continuing to be able to do the basic things you did when younger (e.g. walk around for a 30-minute stretch, climb a ladder, take a few flights of stairs, etc.).

The dogma has always been: proper diet is critical for weight loss/achieving a healthy weight, but activity level helps you maintain it.

Exercise is far more important for promoting longevity and maximizing healthspan.

Yup. Absolute dogma, mostly propagated by multivitamin pharma

Calories in, calories out. This will work for 95% of everyone. Sure, there are outliers with issues, there are also anemic groups, etc. However, it's really hard in today's world to go nutrient deficient if you are simply getting in your appropriate calories from almost any source. Are there better calories? Absolutely. However, we are talking about an obesity epidemic, not energy levels.