What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

offensive line rankings (1 Viewer)

I really enjoyed the article. One thing that I think could be an improvement would be listing the run blocking schemes (zone/man) of the coaches and perhaps the number of years they have been using the scheme. I see that you reduced the rating given to coaching by 50% and I understand your reasoning. Still it is useful to know what scheme the team is running and for how long, that helps you identify RB picked up by the team that may be a good or poor fit.

Listing the last 3 years YPC as well as pass/run ratio could be useful also. That is something I like to look at when projecting team rushing yards.

Very nice work so soon after the draft!

 
So the lowest grade given to any player was a C. I think that someone has to be below average.
the cynic would respond that if a C is the lowest than a B is actually average (the mean).

Actually there are below C grades but not in the starters.

When Colin Baxter steps in for Nick Hardwick, that's a D grade. NFL teams usually do a good job of not planning to start D's.

But tthey do end up playing due to injury, and that's reflected later in the year.

 
KC is kinda low...dont agree
KC's grade at 22 is higher than it was. It is held down by Geoff Schwartz being just ok, two new starters, and a lack of any All-Pro or Pro Bowl talent. I never rank rookies as Pro Bowlers if they have never played in the league before. If Eric Fisher plays up to his potential that line can be great but there is a big difference between KC right now and a team like HOU with 3 Pro Bowlers on the left side. KC can be HOU in a year (look at the rise of Minnesota for example). The young guys just have to mature. Put it another way if your team takes a tackle in the top 5 that line has problems.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So the lowest grade given to any player was a C. I think that someone has to be below average.
the cynic would respond that if a C is the lowest than a B is actually average (the mean). Actually there are below C grades but not in the starters. When Colin Baxter steps in for Nick Hardwick, that's a D grade. NFL teams usually do a good job of not planning to start D's. But tthey do end up playing due to injury, and that's reflected later in the year.
Ok I see what you mean. If you are lower than a C grade you would not be a starter hopefully.
 
I really enjoyed the article. One thing that I think could be an improvement would be listing the run blocking schemes (zone/man) of the coaches and perhaps the number of years they have been using the scheme. I see that you reduced the rating given to coaching by 50% and I understand your reasoning. Still it is useful to know what scheme the team is running and for how long, that helps you identify RB picked up by the team that may be a good or poor fit.

Listing the last 3 years YPC as well as pass/run ratio could be useful also. That is something I like to look at when projecting team rushing yards.

Very nice work so soon after the draft!
Seconded. It'd also be great to know how many sacks were given up, how many pressures led to INTs and fumbles, passing and rushing yardage.

 
Nice work, thorough.

I don't really agree with the sentiment about talent vs coaching OL. I think it's been obvious in TEN.

I didn't like reading this http://www.tennessean.com/article/20130510/SPORTS01/305100124/Tennessee-Titans-Mike-Munchak-turns-attention-helping-line-improve?nclick_check=1 from a fan perspective, I mean within is him about saying he hasn't done much OL coaching and us fans have watched that unit struggle, that's Munchak's strength and....it somewhat backs up all the fans frustration the last couple years. Anyhow, onward I'm glad he's back at it for the time being.

IMO Roos and Stewart are not as good as they once were and are declining. We shall see with the improved Guard play.

I don't follow the logic in making Levitre a pro bowler if the guy never made it.

nitpicks:

Your overall grades don't always matchup. Looking at Hawks getting A, C, A, B, C but total of an A...average of that should be a B. I'd also guess their RT gets replaced with that elbow. Elbows and shoulders have wrecked many OL careers and he wasn't too too good to start with.

Nice article, for May when topics can be difficult-it's awesome. Kudos.

 
Thanks for doing the heavy lifting Matt. I started writing out the OL for the NFC and it just takes up a ton of time. I might add my own thoughts on each team, you definitely have some questionable grades however I want to stress that I understand how difficult it can be trying to piece this all together. It is May and there are a lot of factors going on here. Also a great run blocking OL does not always mean FF gold. SF has one of the best but they seem more and more like an RBBC to me.

Thanks for doing this early, I can't speak for everyone but I know a lot of us appreciate this. As much as folks want to be entrenched in the FF knowledge, the OL is a bit dry for many to have to sift thru so this is a nice starting point and we can add to it from here.

 
San Diego's line is worse this year than last year? That's unpossible.Ditching Harris alone should bump them up several spots.and the 'current' lineup per minicamp tweets is Dunlap-Rinehart-Hardwick-Clary-FlukerDunlap graded out very well (relatively speaking) in pass protection per PFF and calling Rinehart 'backup caliber' is a stretch.

@PFF: Nice move for the Chargers signing Chad Rinehart. Played real well in 2011 - third best pass blocking efficiency score of all guards then
 
Last edited by a moderator:
New York Giants

LT/RT: William Beatty($7.25M) really paid off last season and was rewarded for it big time by the Giants as he signed a 5 yr/$38M deal with $24M paid out over the next 3 seasons and 2013/2014 all guaranteed. Beatty earned it and his 22 QBR-3 sacks were very good measured out against other LT in the NFL. Beatty was a 2nd round pick out of UConn in 2009 so it was about time for his next contract. He really had not made a major impact until last season so the only question now is will Beatty continue his strong play now that he got paid?

David Diehl($1M) only played about half the snaps last season and statistically he has gone downhill the last couple seasons. He did agree to a monster cut in pay from $4.5M down to $1m. Diehl is on his way out, maybe the Giants can squeeze part of a season while they develop Justin Pugh(R-1.19) from Syracuse . He has issues including weight and strength. He weighed in at 302 at the combine and struggled on bull rush techniques at Guard so he might not even make a good OG. He has short arms as well, struggled in one on one edge rushes as well. He has a lot of work to do in order to start any time soon. James Brewer(2011-4th) looked good in spot play, basically just depth right now but maybe like Beatty he can develop and surprise some folks.

C/LG/RG: David Baas ($1.25m) has decided to restructure his contract again. He also went thru a couple off season surgeries so if there was a reason to expect his numbers to go down we could start there. He is 31 years old but with solid play from the OG spots he manages to hold his own. In comparison to the rest of the league, Baas is pretty average but again he’s solid and cap friendly now. Kevin Boothe was brought back on a 1 year deal. The 30 year old LG was solid in run blocking, not so much on pass blocking. The deal is likely worth about $1.5-$2M with incentives. It was the best year of Boothe’s pretty underwhelming career to that point. Chris Snee($5.2m) had off season hip surgery but he should be ready to fire on all cylinders by the time camp rolls around. It is frightening how much off season surgery there is. There isn’t a lot of depth here and what there is doesn’t look all that promising. They need the starters to stay healthy.

Run Grade: B- They are coming off 7th in rush avg but only 14th overall so the OC need to make a commitment here.

Pass Grade: B They were 1st in sacks allowed last season but right now RT is pretty shaky

 
So comparing what Matt wrote, he graded Beatty a "B" and that's fine, he only did it for 1 season. he grades Boothe a "C+", again only 1 decent year last year on a pretty ho hum resume. I'm not as high on Baas, Snee grades high, and I also have some reservations about Pugh. I would like to see you dig up more information on the rookies before you grade them out...not sure how you can grade them right now as most would flunk if we put them on the field and you are using that as an argument for not going below a "C" grade on any starter in the NFL. You are free to do it your way but you gotta understand there is a big opening for criticism.

We need someone to spearhead this so just be ready for differing opinions and open to making adjustments as need be.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I wonder if you should be giving a grade for depth. The Vikings, for example, have good line but IMO their depth is wanting. I am not sure if any of their backups can play.

 
I really enjoyed the article. One thing that I think could be an improvement would be listing the run blocking schemes (zone/man) of the coaches and perhaps the number of years they have been using the scheme. I see that you reduced the rating given to coaching by 50% and I understand your reasoning. Still it is useful to know what scheme the team is running and for how long, that helps you identify RB picked up by the team that may be a good or poor fit.

Listing the last 3 years YPC as well as pass/run ratio could be useful also. That is something I like to look at when projecting team rushing yards.

Very nice work so soon after the draft!
this is great feedback. I do mention it in the writeups when a team is especially zone heavy (HOU and WAS for example). I will try to add that to the future columns.I have a column in the model called "focus" which is really more of a characterization of whether the offense is pass focused or run focused. FWIW the top 5 OL in the rankings are run focused (NE is the highest pass focused unit).

 
craxie said:
San Diego's line is worse this year than last year? That's unpossible.Ditching Harris alone should bump them up several spots.and the 'current' lineup per minicamp tweets is Dunlap-Rinehart-Hardwick-Clary-FlukerDunlap graded out very well (relatively speaking) in pass protection per PFF and calling Rinehart 'backup caliber' is a stretch.

@PFF: Nice move for the Chargers signing Chad Rinehart. Played real well in 2011 - third best pass blocking efficiency score of all guards then
The Chargers line is better than last year. Problem is the other 31 teams didn't stay static. It's possible for them to be better than last year and still the worst line in the league. the Rinehart critique is fair, but note If we grade Rinehart as a B instead of a C+ it only gets the line to 31st. They have widespread changes and no elite talent.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
So comparing what Matt wrote, he graded Beatty a "B" and that's fine, he only did it for 1 season. he grades Boothe a "C+", again only 1 decent year last year on a pretty ho hum resume. I'm not as high on Baas, Snee grades high, and I also have some reservations about Pugh. I would like to see you dig up more information on the rookies before you grade them out...not sure how you can grade them right now as most would flunk if we put them on the field and you are using that as an argument for not going below a "C" grade on any starter in the NFL. You are free to do it your way but you gotta understand there is a big opening for criticism.

We need someone to spearhead this so just be ready for differing opinions and open to making adjustments as need be.
the Giants line is one of the hardest to grade. there's a ton of uncertainty, where Pugh will play, where Diehl will play etc. They could be higher with a different lineup (no Boothe).

The rookie grade formula is easy. 1st rounders get Bs, 2nd-3rd rounders get C+ and all other rookies get Cs.

I don't think it's wise to grade a rookie as a Pro Bowler, until he's proven it. The grades are just a starting point. By the end of last year Matt Kalil was playing like an A, even though he starter as a B. Meanwhile Gabe Carimi was a B that downgraded as the year went on.

 
Donnybrook said:
I wonder if you should be giving a grade for depth. The Vikings, for example, have good line but IMO their depth is wanting. I am not sure if any of their backups can play.
It's a fair point, I grade the swing tackle as half a starter. teams can usually find guards and centers, but they usually can't find tackles mid year. The thing about depth is that the teams don't really want these players to play. The best offensive lines (historically great lines like the 1980's Hogs on the Redskins), it's all about continuity. the backups hopefully never play. these days with guys getting painkillers at halftime and going back into the game with broken ribs it's even less likely a backup sees time.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
How is vasquez ranked as a C+???? And the Broncos didn't sign him to a 4 year contract to compete with Kuper.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
last year I graded Iupati and Whitworth as pro bowler (backups B+) even tho they never made it. They did make it. I also graded Andre Smith as a pro bowl but that was probably a mistake. 2 for 3 aint bad.

the pro bowl is a flawed honor (as many have pointed out) but the biggest problem is vets making it on reputation and young guys getting snubbed for a year. Another problem is that losing teams dont get as many pro bowlers as winning teams.

I try to predict 3 of the under appreciated young guys as a way to even out the rankings.

This year I graded Levitre as a Pro Bowl backup, as he's been a really good player. Another guy with that kind of potential is Eugene Monroe. And the third is Kelechi Osemele. When i see these guys, they are better than B's. So we will see how it goes.

I didn't give upgrades to Tyron Smith, Jared Veldheer but they were on that short list of guys who could possibly be Pro Bowlers if their career paths continue.

I don't follow the logic in making Levitre a pro bowler if the guy never made it.
 
How is vasquez ranked as a C+???? And the Broncos didn't sign him to a 4 year contract to compete with Kuper.
He's pretty good. He actually played well for the last two years. I might have to upgrade him, after looking at him further. Agree he will start over Kuper, because of the contract.

btw if we grade him a B instead of a C+, the DEN ranking becomes a tie with TEN for 7th. not a huge change at all.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
2 stats I really look at when judging an oline are sacks allowed and rushing yards. So when I see the Bills at 29 I really scratch my head. They were 10th in sacks allowed and 6th in total rush yards. They did lose Levitre, however going from a top 10 line in both these categories to the 3rd worst line because they lost a guard? But then you had them ranked pretty low last year too(21). So do you over value the grades you give to each individual player vs the unit as a whole? Or do you just dislike certain teams and grade them poorly based on perception?

 
2 stats I really look at when judging an oline are sacks allowed and rushing yards. So when I see the Bills at 29 I really scratch my head. They were 10th in sacks allowed and 6th in total rush yards. They did lose Levitre, however going from a top 10 line in both these categories to the 3rd worst line because they lost a guard? But then you had them ranked pretty low last year too(21). So do you over value the grades you give to each individual player vs the unit as a whole? Or do you just dislike certain teams and grade them poorly based on perception?
thanks for your question.

to specifically talk about the Bills, their old offensive system, under Chan gailey, was a quick hit system with the ball thrown super fast. They didn't give up many sacks for all the years they ran that system, not just last year. For the last 3-5 years the Bills have been among the league leaders in sacks allowed. I wouldn't say they were the best OL in the league for that period, despite the sacks. But that was last year. The line is different now. The OC is different now. The sacks will probably go up, because that system was extremely unique.

Yes they lost Llevitre but they also didn't replace him. They also lost Rinehart, who a poster in this thread says is worth at least a B. :) Who is the starter there? David Snow? Sam Young? why is that better than it was last year? The Bills could have drafted a lineman, or signed one in free agency, but they didn't. Bottom line other teams got better, they didn't.

in general I do not dislike certain teams. I try to be fair with these rankings. But I also don't factor offensive production in these rankings.

for example if we go to NFL.com the Atlanta Falcons had the 6th ranked passing offense (8th overall). but i have them as the 30th ranked OL. Why?

part of that is it's a new year and different players. The other part of it is that the quality of an offensive line and the stats produced by the QB, WR etc are not necessarily a linear connection.

If Matt Ryan had a choice, do you think he'd rather have the Falcons' OL or the Browns OL? Joe Thomas easy choice. but the Browns probably aren't gonna win 13 games this year.

 
What do you owe it to that a line can have a lower overall grade than its worst individual player?

Take the Lions.. I almost think an overall grade of D- is being generous, but then the worst starting player on the line is a C+?

 
What do you owe it to that a line can have a lower overall grade than its worst individual player?

Take the Lions.. I almost think an overall grade of D- is being generous, but then the worst starting player on the line is a C+?
great question.

the glib answer is that sometimes a group can be more or less than the sum of it's parts.

the real answer is that the overall grades (and run/pass block grades) are for entertainment purposes only...

the way the rankings work is that the individual grades plus swing tackle, coaching, and cohesion are fed into an equation and that produces a raw score. That score is actually how the teams are ranked.

I created overall letter grades for ease of use but careful observation such as yours will uncover that the overall letter grades are not directly connected to the individual grades. the overall grades are more about where the team fits into the grand scheme, compared to all the other teams.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
How is vasquez ranked as a C+???? And the Broncos didn't sign him to a 4 year contract to compete with Kuper.
He's pretty good. He actually played well for the last two years. I might have to upgrade him, after looking at him further. Agree he will start over Kuper, because of the contract.

btw if we grade him a B instead of a C+, the DEN ranking becomes a tie with TEN for 7th. not a huge change at all.
Another problem with your ranking is the use of Chris Clark as the swing tackle. I assume you are including the 6th oline to be part of goal line/short yardage situations. While Clark may have that role initially, as soon as Kuper is healthy he will take over that responsibility. He was/is one of the best run blockers the Broncos have.

 
In watching offensive linemen have any matchups stood out to you as being lop sided either in favor of O or D individuals, especially amongst divisional foes? ie Silverback v JPP

 
I would like to thank you for your work and this product. Thank you.

This isn't meant to be an attack but just honest questions about your process.

How do come up with these grades (numbers)? Do you watch film on each players? Do you weigh in stats? Did you factor in players skills (athleticism) versus technique in specific schemes (ie; zone)?

Again, I don't want to sound rude and to be honest I haven't read through all the teams yet but it sounds like general observation and opinion. There is lots of Pro Bowl, injury, draft position and positional battle info. I can understand why you would write the article like this (for the sake of most readers) but did you break down each players technique strengths and weaknesses? Like kick steps, arm extension, anchoring technique, ability to recover, etc.? Also, this would be extremely time consuming.

Thanks again.

 
With the Saints line ranked so low (and I tend to agree with the evaluation) and a new starter, with possibly little to no experience, at LT, how can we rank Drew Brees so high??

 
The Pats' Logan Mankins is more of an A- player than an A+ player nowadays. He can get in trouble in one-on-one pass protection. His run blocking is better, but released Donald Thomas looked better in that department when Mankins was hurt (Thomas was a liability in pass protection, though).

 
With the Saints line ranked so low (and I tend to agree with the evaluation) and a new starter, with possibly little to no experience, at LT, how can we rank Drew Brees so high??
I believe Drew Brees has one of the quickest releases going these days. A lot of the playbook is short passes, get the ball out quick, both Nicks and Bushrod were let go and part of that is perhaps the front office and coaching putting their foot down and saying "Why pay for all these big oafs when we can pour our money into skill position players and devise a game plan where we don't need the QB to stand in the pocket for 4-5 seconds scanning the field?"

This is just what I overhear at the owner's meetings.

 
Just looking for thoughts and opinions:

- Does anyone have any info on how NFL teams or sites such as FBG, Outsiders, RW or PFF grade offensive lines and particular players?

- Are there certain stats or measurables or metrics that are used? If so are these retained somewhere?

- Also, seeing as how it's pretty difficult to do watching games on tv, any suggestions on watching offensive lines' performance at games? is it just a question of whether they get beat, get pushed back, or the like?

Thanks.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
One thing that is pretty easy to spot on TV is OTs who turn their feet and shoulders perpendicular to the LOS, which usually gives rushers a two way go at the QB in the pocket. I feel that this is something you see that makes QBs get rid of the ball too soon. They tend to not be able to feel the pressure properly because they are unsure of how long the OT can sustain and where exactly the rusher will come from, making it harder to climb the pocket with confidence because they don't have confidence in the blocking. Especially if it's on the blind side.

 
KC is kinda low...dont agree
He explains in the analysis if you read it. Basically, the Chiefs line while on paper seems like it should be amazing is very young and unproven. The line has elite potential but who knows when and if it all comes together. Could be this year, could be next year, could be never.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Just looking for thoughts and opinions:

- Does anyone have any info on how NFL teams or sites such as FBG, Outsiders, RW or PFF grade offensive lines and particular players?

- Are there certain stats or measurables or metrics that are used? If so are these retained somewhere?

- Also, seeing as how it's pretty difficult to do watching games on tv, any suggestions on watching offensive lines' performance at games? is it just a question of whether they get beat, get pushed back, or the like?

Thanks.
these are very good questions

i grade these players based on Madden rankings and goats entrails. (just kidding)

there is lengthy explanation on methodology before the 2012 ranking article but can't seem to find it right now.

To summarize in a TMI fashion:

Every starter (5 starters and a 6th man "swing tackle") is graded based on resume and my observations (week to week/year to year). The starters are weighed differently (LT and RT are doubled, swing tackles are a half)

  • current All Pros get A+ or 4.5 in number terms
  • previous All Pros and current Pro Bowls get A or 4
  • previous Pro Bowl get B+ or 3.5
  • good starter gets a B or 3
  • decent starter gets a C+ or 2.5
  • below average starter gets C or 2
  • bad starter gets 1.5 or below
  • rookies get B in 1st rd, C+ in rd 2/3 and C all other rookies
There's a 7th grade for cohesion which is counted as a full starting guard and a boring function of games played together and in the same position (swapping Bryan Bulaga from RT to LT was a downgrade of cohesion even tho he was a Packer last year). The redskins have a bottom tier line talent wise (outside of Trent Williams) but they have like 3 years of cohesion together, which makes them an above average OL.

there are no bad starters when the season starts (street guys like Colin Baxter starting at center for Nick Mangold is an example of 1.5 in the rankings or Mike Harris on the Chargers last year at LT). these things will happen.

from week to week I make note of sack stats, beast modes, and rushing totals. Epic fails are also noted.

PFF does an interesting system of snap by snap breakdown, and these grades can be useful. However they are not gospel because PFF doesn't really know what these players were expected to do on any given play. It's a huge part of the puzzle to miss. I do not subscribe to PFF but have a respect for the work they do over the years. I do not agree with all their grades.

respect All Pro and Pro Bowl lists more than some because the OL is a tight community and coaches/scouts love to talk to media about their OL from week to week. 33% players/coaches/fans is a good mix actually. the voting system for Pro Bowl is underrated cause the game sucks. But compared to other leagues it's relatively fair.

 
Kind of hard to imagine Drew Brees setting all those QB records and leading a top NFL offense behind a C grade offensive line. Pro Bowls are a popularity contest for the most part so I would reduce or eliminate those from my grading system. As for the Saints new face, Charles Brown's only knock has been staying healthy. He is not a rookie though and he has filled in and looked good in the past. He is the reason the Saints didn't knock themselves out over Bushrod. He is also the reason they drafted depth at the position. Other than his injuries, he is actually an upgrade over Bushrod from everything I have seen.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Kind of hard to imagine Drew Brees setting all those QB records and leading a top NFL offense behind a C grade offensive line.
Matt Ryan and Aaron Rodgers produce like Drew Brees with less protection.

For years the announcers would say the Colts OL was great, until Peyton Manning left and everyone realized they were Jeff Saturday and 4 garbagemen.

It's not a straight line between fantasy points and OL quality. Certain run heavy offenses like SF need that OL because they don't have Aaron Rodgers.

 
I would just add in regards to the Saints that they have had some high profile offensive linemen leave their team over the past 2 seasons in Carl Nicks and Jermond Bushrod. I think there was someone else significant they have lost over the last 3 seasons as well but the name escapes me.

So this has to be at least somewhat of a downgrade from the perspective of continuity as well as overall quality.

 
Jeff Faine? Micky Loomis has filled that position very well with Brian de La Puente. Brees hardly ever gets pressure up the middle. Ben Grubbs who took over for Nicks is playing at a high level and what is Nicks doing now? His career might actually be over due to injury. Truthfully, my one concern on our offensive line other than Charles Brown staying healthy is Zack Streif at right Tackle. I think he has slowed down considerably on that side and often gets bull rushed putting pressure on Brees.

Also to Matt not that this matters as far as this topic goes but- Matt Ryan has never produced like Drew Brees. Not ever. Maybe one day though. Rogers well thats true, yes he has.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes Faine is who I was thinking of thank you. I do not track the Saints much however. Thank you for your perspective on them. Just saying what my perception about their Oline was. It is certainly not as impactful as when they lost Willie Roaf. I do see those moves collectively being a bit of a step backwards though.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Just looking for thoughts and opinions:

- Does anyone have any info on how NFL teams or sites such as FBG, Outsiders, RW or PFF grade offensive lines and particular players?

- Are there certain stats or measurables or metrics that are used? If so are these retained somewhere?

- Also, seeing as how it's pretty difficult to do watching games on tv, any suggestions on watching offensive lines' performance at games? is it just a question of whether they get beat, get pushed back, or the like?

Thanks.
Check out Footballoutsiders.com and ProFootballFocus.com

Both of those websites provide some very in depth analysis of offensive lines. Like down to every single play run by every single team. Percentages and yardage for runs behind every single member of the offensive line.

If you want to know how CJ Spiller will fare running to the left behind Cordy Glenn (LT), you can see precisely what type of production was had. Or where was Arian Foster most effective: running behind his LG or RG?

EDIT: My bad, I didn't realize you were asking how they came up with those numbers.

From some interviews I've heard on local radio, it comes down to the staff of those sites watching every single play of every game and charting the results.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Top