That's what a guy like Insein can't figure out. '$20 million' just blows his mind. There's a reason teams sign guys like Tannehill, Cutler, and Dalton to 20+ million dollar contracts, despite the fact that they've never won anything. It's because they know how hard it is to find a quarterback in this league. The teams that are always at the bottom of the league, are the ones that seem to have a new QB every year. Or two different QBs every season. Philly is starting to become one of the franchises. If they let Bradford walk and sign Daniels, he better be top ten by week 4 or guys like Insein will be calling for his head. It could very well be ten years till they get a QB who is considered a franchise guy. Some te4ams haven't had one for twenty or thirty years. There's currently one on the Eagles roster, but some people don't want to give him market value. Well that's fine, but keep your mouths shut these next few seasons. I don't want to hear you whining when we're 5-11 and our QB is near the bottom of the league.
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*Official 2016 Philadelphia Eagles* - The year of Change (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Deamon
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Cjw_55106
Footballguy
And one of the wins was against the Patriots. And that record would have been 7-3 if Sanchez hadn't come in and blown the lead we had against Miami when Bradford got hurt.
Insein
Footballguy
Really? Cam won a national title and his stats his rookie season were better than all of Bradfords seasons in the league.
But let's compare
Cam 4 seasons, 62 gp, 14426yds, 82tds, 54 ints
Sam 5 seasons, 63 go, 14790yds, 78tds, 52ints
So Cam was just about the same passing wise in 4 years as Sam was in 5 INCLUDING Sam's best statistical year. But then you add in 2500yds rushing and another 33 TDs on the ground and yea, the potential for stud was there before his MVP year this season. And again, it was the team that drafted him.
Insein
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
Bradford is not a franchise QB. And why would I be mad if Chase Daniel is losing? I'm not a shortsighted moron like some fans who want to setyle for winning the NFC East. Sam wasn't even good enough for that when it only would have taken 8 wins. He got us 7. Story of his career.
I can see why everyone is so scared to move on from this sure fire Hall of Famer. A talent like that only comes around Once, maybe twice a draft.
The stats you posted just proved our point. Sam and Cam are nearly identical. The rushing yards are nice, but he's a rarity. That usually works for a season or two. (Ask RG3 and Kaep). I know I'm in the minority, but I wouldn't want Cam. He's going to go back to those numbers. Everything just fell in line for that team this year.
Insein
Footballguy
Cam did in 4 seasons (without his MVP year included) what it took Sam to do over 5 injury ridded ones (including his best statistical one last year) And Cam had won a playoff game in that time.
You would rather have Sam over Cam?
Here's why they're afraid of moving on from Bradford...Bubby Brister, Rodney Peete, Ty Detmer, Bobby Hoying, Doug Pederson, Donovan McNabb, Michael Vick, Nick Foles.
That's the list of our starting quarterbacks since Randall Cunningham. Eight guys. I highlighted the only one better than Bradford. I guess we can let Bradford walk and add some more Detmers and Peetes. That was fun to watch.
Yeah yeah, we get it. Bradford is injury prone. Of course it took him an extra year.
I hate Newton. With a passion. So I'd hate for him to be our quarterback. Yeah, the rushing yards would be nice. But I'm fine with him in Carolina.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
and outside of Cinncy (and Dalton is better than Bradford, plus they have drafted well) all the teams that have signed average QBs to $20+ million dollar contracts have been mediocre, at best, teams. That's the point some seem to miss. In a salary cap league overpaying is generally not a great strategy.
His career he was stuck in an awful offense in St. Louis. Chase isn't a Franchise QB either. Neither will the guy we draft in the 3rd round be.
I still can't believe you're saying Sam got us 7 wins. He probably would have gotten us 9 if he didnt get hurt. And he didn't get hurt any more then any qb would have on that hit, so 'injury prone' had nothing to do with that injury. The Oline got him killed.. hence why we should draft OL instead of QB.
Insein
Footballguy
Yes we should settle for the latest Vick then. Maybe he has a flash in the pan season like 2010? Before you know reverting to form.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
That's my point exactly. Had someone suggested that Cam was a top 8 QB coming into this season it would have been met with:
And spare me the National Championship. Both were #1 picks and both won ROY and in Cam's case no one saw his breakout coming which is what happens to more guys than not.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
The point is getting taken out of context--When someone says this:
I don't now that they realize just how many people that applies to every single season
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
Cam did more in less time than Sam his whole career. Cam had a ton of potential, just won a playoff game and was only coming into his 5th year in the league. How could I ever ask the above question? He showed a lot.Cam vs Sam is a silly argument.
How bout Sam vs Jay. That's more in line with what we can expect.
Starts off in Denver as a high 1st round pick. Has some decent stats. (9024yds, 54-37 in 37gp) Gets traded to Chicago. Again midlevel stats. Nothing great but decent. (12292yds, 82/63 td/Int in 56 gp) 34-22 over that stretch and even wins a playoff game for them.
2013, he signs long term 7 year, $126m deal that's about $17m per year. Since then, again decent stats (10092yds, 68/41 in 41gp). What do the Bears have to show for it? 16-25 in games he's played, no playoffs.
I think Cutler is a better talent than Sam. Would I rather Cutler now? No, he's older and even more proven to be nothing. I'd take a rookie over either if them. Once you reach a certain point in this league, you're either ascendig to greatness or you've gone as high as you'll get. I think Sam's peak was last year.
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Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Your comp was of games played correct? Those #'s look VERY similar. One could argue that had Sam not dealt with the injuries he did those per game #'s would be even better than Cam's....different discussion for a different day.
So coming into this season, after losing their #1 WR, following up on a 7-8-1 record, having his yards decrease for 4 consecutive seasons and going for 3100-18-12 you had Cam as a top 8 QB? Unless I see something in writing Im calling complete and total BS on that. I'd say that way more than not had him out of the top 15 even
Im not comparing the 2 AT ALL! Im simply saying that very rarely do you see the breakout coming...they just happen and then revisionist history fills in the blanks, which is EXACTLY what you're doing.
After watching Manning play in the SB I actually feel better about having Sam if the team is built the right way. That wasn't the elite D that often gets mentioned with mediocre QB's but they did enough to win. Sam can be what Manning was to that Denver team....I don't see any rookie, Foles or Sanchez being able to do that...
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Ash
Footballguy
LOL, what?
The search function on this forum is a dumpster fire, but I assure you there is a multiple-page thread on the SP from early last summer asking folks their opinion on the #3 dynasty QB.
I wrote that I had Cam at 3, solidly above Wilson, while acknowledging that I didn't expect everyone to agree.
But probably 80% of the replies had Cam and Russ 3-4 in some order. I don't remember seeing a single person listing Cam outside the top 8.
I know that dynasty FF QB preference doesn't equal NFL QB preference, but you can't honestly believe most folks would have gone 8 deep on QBs to build their franchise around before landing on Cam - even before this season.
By contrast ... find me anyone who's putting Bradford anywhere near their top 8 QBs right now, either real-life or dynasty FF.
It's a crazy comparison.
Ash
Footballguy
My problem with this line of logic is that on balance of probability this hypothetical rookie is much more likely to be Kyle Boller than David Carr. That's assuming one of the top 3 guys is there which isn't a given. Bradford isn't the perfect option either, but I would much rather tag him then look at the draft and if there's a QB at 13 they think is the best pick then take him. Strongly doubt Bradford would sign the tag before the draft anyway, it could then be withdrawn if we wanted.
I don't think you can really go all in on Bradford at this point, but I do want to "check" so I can at least see the next card before I bet or fold.
Insein
Footballguy
I get hedging the bets with the Tag. I'm just done with hearing how we need to give Bradford a chance because of all this potential he holds. He is what he is. A very average QB. One that has never even shown flashes of greatness outside of singular plays. He's never won a game on his own. He's never brought a team back for the win. He's never played in a playoff game or won a division. When was the last big game he's played in? The National Championship in 2009? The guy is as mediocre as mediocre can be and people are acting like we have to keep him because "What are you gonna do play Sanchez?"
I'm tired of the excuses this guy gets. And he will get all of them again this year because nothing is changing. He needs to learn a new offense. The OLine is not that good. The WRs stink and the RBs are suspect. It will be the same old excuses again when we go 8-8 and miss the division by a game.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Good thing no one was talking dynasty, or anything else you mentioned.Mr. Irrelevant said:
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Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I was going to say the exact same thing.Dr. Octopus said:
If the best QB is rated as a 10 and those guys are like 6's, is it really worth paying that amount of money? If you could get a 4 for half the cost (or less) for now?
I guess it depends on what one really believes Bradford's ceiling to be.
Insein
Footballguy
I guess some feel Bradford has a 9 in him despite only showing a 5 or 6 level his whole career. At some point, its gotta show up on the field right?
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
If we look at the AAV for QBs, we see that there are basically 17 starters making primo money: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/quarterback/
(if we still count Kaep as a starter.) They make $16-$22 per year.
Then you have Nick, whose AAV looks a little more than it probably should the way that's structured, but fair enough, he makes $12.
Then you have Brady with that ridiculous $9, plus several guys on rookie deals (Luck, Winston, Mariota, Bridgewater, Bortles, Carr).
this list doesn't have Cousins and Fitz, since they are FA. That's 28 starters. Plus the guys in Buffalo, Cleveland, Houston who make a couple million.
So there really is no middle ground, which is ashame. If you think Bradford can be a decent amount better than he's shown, then it is probably worth at least franchising him. If this is where he tops out, I think it's better just to get someone super cheap and build up the rest of the core for now.
(if we still count Kaep as a starter.) They make $16-$22 per year.
Then you have Nick, whose AAV looks a little more than it probably should the way that's structured, but fair enough, he makes $12.
Then you have Brady with that ridiculous $9, plus several guys on rookie deals (Luck, Winston, Mariota, Bridgewater, Bortles, Carr).
this list doesn't have Cousins and Fitz, since they are FA. That's 28 starters. Plus the guys in Buffalo, Cleveland, Houston who make a couple million.
So there really is no middle ground, which is ashame. If you think Bradford can be a decent amount better than he's shown, then it is probably worth at least franchising him. If this is where he tops out, I think it's better just to get someone super cheap and build up the rest of the core for now.
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Bradford is a 7 with 8 potential. Chase or a rookie is most likely a 5 with 6 potential, with about a 2% chance of being an 8 with 9 potential. Give me the 7 all day.
I can see it now... Sam walks, we draft some wildcard in the 3rd round and we win 5 games and the reason is "well these guys need time" and you find other excuses to bash the team and say why we aren't developing. Meanwhile 3 years down the line we have to blow it up again and fire Doug and search again for a rookie QB and you'll still be here finding another way to run the team better then the current GM/Owners.
I just hope that since you change your mind so easily on your strong opinions, you'll be back on the Sam wagon soon enough. Let's fix this line up in the early rounds and see what we can do.
Insein
Footballguy
Yes the line needs to be fixed. We've established that. I've just been listening all week about this Hall of Fame talent in Sam Bradford that we can't possibly let get away. So I'm tired of it.
If Brady is a 9 at this point in his career, and guys like Cam and Wilson are 8's playing up to 9 potential, then Brees or Rivers are 7's or 8's. Dalton is a 6 with 7 potential. Flacco is a 6 that flashed 7 or 8 potential once. Eli is a 6 that flashed 7 or 8 potential twice. Bradford is a 5 that came out in the draft 6 years ago with 8 or 9 potential. That was 6 years ago. He's yet to show any of it. So at this point, what exactly am I paying stock in that he will buck his career trend and become an ascending talent when every year he's been mediocre? A 7 game stretch where he played as good as the 12th best QB in the league in a different offense? A 7 game stretch where he played above average back in 2013?
If Sam Bradford was a 3rd round pick, he'd be hanging on for a backup position at this point. Because he's a former #1 overall, he keeps getting that "hope" that he'll live up to the potential.
Mighty Mice
Footballguy
Some chatter BUF may release DE Mario Williams. Unhappy with Rex's system. May look to reunite with DC Schwartz, who he played for in BUF in 2014 and had 14.5 sacks. Great fit in Schwartz's 'fastball' system. Cost will be a factor, as well as the fact he's 31, but another interesting FA name along with Jahri Evans to add to the list.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
If the money is right I would be on board with adding both assuming they can still play some
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Not because he was a 20-something year old QB, who won ROY and has shown some flashes of being able to play? Sounds like radio talk to me
I don't think theres a single person saying Sam is great. I have seen (myself included) some suggest that with the right pieces he can do better ala Ryan Fitzpatrick or Payton Manning this season...and whats wrong with that? Unless you think the next franchise QB is on this roster or attainable in the draft or FA, I have no idea what the discussion is even about. There seems to be no gray area or if someone even suggests it you dismiss it immediately. He is exactly what you said he is--a 5 who COULD peak at a 7 (fair?) depending on whats around him. The damn SB winning QB played like a 3 this season.....
The best option I see for us is to tag Sam and hope he doesn't sign right away like they usually do. Go into the draft and see what you can get...IF we get the QB we desire then revoke the tag and make Sam a FA. If that's not an option he has to get a team friendly deal
Insein
Footballguy
Yes that is what my head says is logical. Franchise him and wait and see. My fan side says I can't root for this guy. He's so mediocre. Not in a good way.
"I know his works. He is neither cold nor hot. So because he is lukewarm, I will spew him out of my mouth."
He has never won anything in the NFL. Never won a playoff game. Never won a division. Never had a winning season. I'm not even talking about the injuries. I'm talking about the player. He's not good. He's average. You don't overpay average.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
I cant not root for him until I see what he can do with at least an average set of skill position players to work with....Hell, I'm not even asking for good or great..I just want and average set of skill players to see what he can do.
I'm not big on wins falling on one players either. I actually hate it. His teams have stunk and that's putting it mildly. Last year, IMHO, the only QB who would have done good or above would have been the elite ones and after seeing Rodgers in GB I even doubt he would have don't much here last season
Buddy Ball 2K3
Footballguy
Anyone know how long we can keep a tag on him and then remove it? Is there a scenario where we can tag him through most of the FA period, wait for other teams to solve their QB situation and then remove the tag? Bit of a DlCK move but could save some $$ right?
Insein
Footballguy
Doubt he signs here if we do that just out of spite. In a vacuum yes we could do that. With real human emotions and rgos involved, no way.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
So you can't root for a guy who, by all accounts, is a great teammate and wonderful human being, because he's never proven to be more than average. But you want to bring in guys like Chase Daniels, who's never even been able to win a starting job, and Nick Foles, who was the worst starting QB in the league last before getting benched for Case Keenum? Or maybe you think Sanchez showed enough in his two 45-10 losses to warrant the starting job.
Two former coaches contacted Michael Griffin about joining their team. It's assumed one was Schwartz, other was Fisher.
I like the guy and wish he'd join a top team. On a good D, the S doesn't lead the team in tackles and/or give the impression he is. Life's easier, game seems more fun.
Still though, I would bet it's Schwartz and he's an Eagle. He llllllllloved Griff when he was the DC.
As for Pederson and GMs opinion- no one will block a new DC from getting a "QB of his defense" if Griffin makes himself affordable. He's got at least one all-pro, some pro bowls, and tons of work showing young players the ropes. None of that is something a GM or HC says "no we don't want him" and blocks Schwartz here.
You guys gotta keep in mind he hung around the Titans facility in 2015 while he worked for the NFL. He has a house in TEN and ....you're probably getting some Titans in Philly.
They didn't have a good D, neither did Philly, but other than Griffin, I expect you get some backups from TEN this offseason. Only viable free agents would be their DTs who were totally fine in a 4-3 but constantly injured when they switched to a 3-4. All in all I'd expect just backups.
I am a gigantic fan of Schwartz. He is certainly a throwback style coach that rewards and penalizes guys for effort and hustle. If you don't know why someone is cut, you will soon. He's very transparent. When he cleans house some, remember he believes he can coach anyone that gives the effort.
I don't see a Suh or Haynesworth type DT on the roster. His defenses are disciplined and do funnel everything toward the DT. This is something many coaches say and few hold the defenders to it. He does and you probably noticed the results if ya think about it. Eagles seem to have the outside rushers to funnel em' in but not the beast in the middle to clamp things down.
I expect the Eagles sign or draft a big DT, add Griffin, and then fans get surprised by a few players getting cut who just don't give 100%.
I like the guy and wish he'd join a top team. On a good D, the S doesn't lead the team in tackles and/or give the impression he is. Life's easier, game seems more fun.
Still though, I would bet it's Schwartz and he's an Eagle. He llllllllloved Griff when he was the DC.
As for Pederson and GMs opinion- no one will block a new DC from getting a "QB of his defense" if Griffin makes himself affordable. He's got at least one all-pro, some pro bowls, and tons of work showing young players the ropes. None of that is something a GM or HC says "no we don't want him" and blocks Schwartz here.
You guys gotta keep in mind he hung around the Titans facility in 2015 while he worked for the NFL. He has a house in TEN and ....you're probably getting some Titans in Philly.
They didn't have a good D, neither did Philly, but other than Griffin, I expect you get some backups from TEN this offseason. Only viable free agents would be their DTs who were totally fine in a 4-3 but constantly injured when they switched to a 3-4. All in all I'd expect just backups.
I am a gigantic fan of Schwartz. He is certainly a throwback style coach that rewards and penalizes guys for effort and hustle. If you don't know why someone is cut, you will soon. He's very transparent. When he cleans house some, remember he believes he can coach anyone that gives the effort.
I don't see a Suh or Haynesworth type DT on the roster. His defenses are disciplined and do funnel everything toward the DT. This is something many coaches say and few hold the defenders to it. He does and you probably noticed the results if ya think about it. Eagles seem to have the outside rushers to funnel em' in but not the beast in the middle to clamp things down.
I expect the Eagles sign or draft a big DT, add Griffin, and then fans get surprised by a few players getting cut who just don't give 100%.
Insein
Footballguy
First off, its Daniel. So many have been getting that wrong.
Again, Daniel, Foles, whoever, (not Sanchez) is a placeholder. We're not winning a super bowl with them. Just like we're not winning one with Bradford.
I want a rookie. Yea rookies have a fail rate. Yes rookies take a bit to get ready but the potential is greater in a rookie than in Bradford. We've seen the Bradford movie. Sure we can pay a hefty sum to see if he's got anything more but why wait a year and get another 7 or 8 win season to find out. Rather be done now and move on to trying to find a QB that can be something.
Why can't we draft a quarterback AND franchise Bradford? If the rookie develops and looks to be a good one, let Bradford walk. If Bradford plays like he did in his last 7 games and continues to improve, sign him to a contract. If both look to be good, we hit the jackpot. Trade one of them. Why do we have to go so far backwards at QB to draft a quarterback?
Insein
Footballguy
Look the cap is going to be close. If we franchise Sam, that's $20m cap right there. It's not like if he signed long term and they could maybe stretch that down to only be like $14 or $15m in year 1. That may mean a guy like Bennie Logan is let go or we don't get as good a safety in here or OLB. It's a zero sum game. If this was baseball, yea fire away.
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I can appreciate this ,line of thought, but I don't understand why anyone would assume that Bradford DOESN'T have "better" in him. If he could consistently play the way he did the second half of 2015...that's more than good enough to justify 18-20M. The argument is then more about injury risk...and how much you believe in the "injury-prone" label. Personally, I've never bought into it, or at least, as it's commonly sold in fantasy circles today.
The injuries and an awful SL offense stifled his development....hard to argue against that. The second half of 2015 shouldn't be written off so easily.
I can understand the "just franchise him" crowd. I'd prefer to re-sign him, but I get it. And it's a nice compromise position. Give him another year to prove himself.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
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