What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

*Official 2018 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles* - Tough way to go out. Magic finally gone. (1 Viewer)

To be clear, I'm not saying Foles is better than Wentz.  I'm looking at this pragmatically and for fun discussion.  We can't trade Foles (unless we do some sign and trade, but that's not happening).  So we either can keep Wentz and let Foles walk (which BTW I think they will do and I'm fine with).  Or we can sign Foles and trade Wentz for a big-time impact player and picks.

The only way I see us even entertaining Foles as the long term option is if we get to and/or win the Super Bowl-not sure how you let him walk if that happens.  IF that happens, we did it with the team as currently constructed.  So all we'd be doing is trading Wentz (not a part of the made-up-for-the-sake-of-this-argument Super Bowl winning team) for an upgrade to 1-3 spots on the Super Bowl Winning roster.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
unckeyherb said:
Right, and that calculus has to happen after this season.  If Foles can pull out a win in NO and get us to an NFC Championship game, I'm not sure how you don't consider him Franchise QB worthy.  At that point, getting a treasure trove in addition to keeping the guy that is money in the playoffs might make it worthwhile.
Click to expand...
Whether he's franchise worthy or not isn't really important, it's that Carson IS franchise worthy.  The team does seem to play hard for Foles though.  Sometimes I wonder how much of that is him, and how much of that is that it's playoffs.  We know Nick has been great with pressure on in playoffs, but everyone is acting like we don't know Carson would be.  Could it be that the team, coach, etc. is just big at stepping up when everyone counts us out? 

Carson has also never lost a playoff game.  Maybe he would have playoff magic on this team too.  That's not taking away from Nick, he's been amazing.  But people saying how Foles 'just wins', are discounting that Carson might "just win" those huge playoff games too. 

 
unckeyherb said:
To be clear, I'm not saying Foles is better than Wentz.  I'm looking at this pragmatically and for fun discussion.  We can't trade Foles (unless we do some sign and trade, but that's not happening).  So we either can keep Wentz and let Foles walk (which BTW I think they will do and I'm fine with).  Or we can sign Foles and trade Wentz for a big-time impact player and picks.

The only way I see us even entertaining Foles as the long term option is if we get to and/or win the Super Bowl-not sure how you let him walk if that happens.  IF that happens, we did it with the team as currently constructed.  So all we'd be doing is trading Wentz (not a part of the made-up-for-the-sake-of-this-argument Super Bowl winning team) for an upgrade to 1-3 spots on the Super Bowl Winning roster.  
Click to expand...
You’d be trading Wentz and in 3-4 years looking to get another Wentz. 

 
Deamon said:
Whether he's franchise worthy or not isn't really important, it's that Carson IS franchise worthy.  The team does seem to play hard for Foles though.  Sometimes I wonder how much of that is him, and how much of that is that it's playoffs.  We know Nick has been great with pressure on in playoffs, but everyone is acting like we don't know Carson would be.  Could it be that the team, coach, etc. is just big at stepping up when everyone counts us out? 

Carson has also never lost a playoff game.  Maybe he would have playoff magic on this team too.  That's not taking away from Nick, he's been amazing.  But people saying how Foles 'just wins', are discounting that Carson might "just win" those huge playoff games too. 
Click to expand...
I'm not saying that at all.  Healthy Carson is the better QB.  Full stop.  But Foles is damn good maybe even great.  You have the ability to trade an almost impossible to get commodity in Wentz for a treasure trove of picks and players all that would help you reload and build up around the QB that just won you back to back Super Bowls.  

FWIW, its treating everything like Fantasy football.  I get that.  Just having some fun.

 
unckeyherb said:
I agree, my only point is this.  Would you prefer:

  1. This team, w/ Wentz and the rest of the team as currently constructed.
  2. This team, w/ Foles and the rest of the team as currently constructed plus Barkley. 
But to your point, add in an additional first round pick to option #2.  
Click to expand...
I’d take option number #2 with that additional pick in a heartbeat. At least I think it’s a good idea to try to—as objectively as possible—analyze all the scenarios. Wentz’s measureables, youth and the blazing run he had last year all make him an incredibly desirable center piece. But his injury history has to be factored in. It’s at the very least concerning to all but the most optimistic person. Foles, with his proven post season track record plus the assets that would be gained by a Wentz trade would be tough for me to turn down. And the elephant in the room: what is it going to cost to sign Wentz to what will be north of 30 million per year and how hamstrung will the team be to flesh out the roster? That has to be considered too in all this calculus. 

 
unckeyherb said:
Foles can be your franchise guy for at least 5+ more years.  What if Foles plus what you get from the Wentz trade gets you another ring or two?  Worth it?
Click to expand...
When you look at Nick’s overall body of work what leads to believe he can be your franchise guy for 5+ years? 

Also, they can trade Foles but I don’t expect it. They’re not going to do him dirty. 

As far as the mechanism, the Eagles have options. They can tag Foles and trade him, as the Dolphins did with Jarvis Landry last year. They can also exercise his $20 million option, which would lead Foles to buy back his freedom for $2 million, which may lead Philly to tag him anyway. 

In the end, a tag may be the best option. Either way, while Foles is due a large pay increase after the way he's performed the past two seasons, it does seem the Eagles will be able to get paid on him, as well.
Click to expand...
 
Bigboy10182000 said:
When you look at Nick’s overall body of work what leads to believe he can be your franchise guy for 5+ years? 

Also, they can trade Foles but I don’t expect it. They’re not going to do him dirty. 
Click to expand...
Last year's run and the turnaround this team has taken with him at the helm isn't enough for you to think he's a high level starter in this league?  

ETA. I agree they aren't trading Foles.  So like I said, its either let him walk and stick with Carson (and pay that man his money), or trade Wentz, reap the rewards and build around Foles with a Super Bowl winning team as the foundation to build from.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Kwai Chang Caine said:
At least I think it’s a good idea to try
Click to expand...
Try? Lol. Giants would take that deal immediately 

And the elephant in the room: what is it going to cost to sign Wentz to what will be north of 30 million per year
Click to expand...

What? This will be Wentz first deal after his rookie deal. There’s no “north of 30 million per year” you’re thinking of QB’s SECOND deals after the rookie deal. 

 
Deamon said:
Carson has also never lost a playoff game.  
Click to expand...
Come on man. You’re not seriously using this as an argument are you? First he actually has to stay healthy enough to make it to the playoffs. 

An uninjured Carson and we don’t even debate any of this. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
unckeyherb said:
Last year's run and the turnaround this team has taken with him at the helm isn't enough for you to think he's a high level starter in this league?  
Click to expand...
Now high level?

He had a magnificent 3 playoff games last season. He’s played for 7 years. You’re saying he has 5+ years as a franchise QB. I need a lot more detail. 

 
Bigboy10182000 said:
Try? Lol. Giants would take that deal immediately 

What? This will be Wentz first deal after his rookie deal. There’s no “north of 30 million per year” you’re thinking of QB’s SECOND deals after the rookie deal. 
Click to expand...
You don’t think he’s gonna get 30 mil per year? What do you think he’s gonna get then?

 
Bigboy10182000 said:
Now high level?

He had a magnificent 3 playoff games last season. He’s played for 7 years. You’re saying he has 5+ years as a franchise QB. I need a lot more detail. 
Click to expand...
He's played very well under some schemes and like dog-#### in others (insert obvious Jeff Fischer line here).  His most recent body of work going back to the Rams game last year to now tells me that hes a franchise QB.  

 
Bigboy10182000 said:
Now high level?

He had a magnificent 3 playoff games last season. He’s played for 7 years. You’re saying he has 5+ years as a franchise QB. I need a lot more detail. 
Click to expand...
That’s not necessarily any different than, 7-9, 11-2, 5-6 

two losing records against one brilliant one. 

Now before you scream at me—I don’t take stock in those numbers either but you can’t have it both ways. Throw out Wentz’ rookie year and his injured year. Fine. But also throw out Foles Rams year and his second with Kelly. 

Foles has had two magnificent runs back to back years in addition to some damn good play here before. Why can’t people possibly accept he’s matured and bettered himself as a QB? Hey I hope it happens for Wentz too. Experience matters. 

 
unckeyherb said:
He's played very well under some schemes and like dog-#### in others (insert obvious Jeff Fischer line here).  His most recent body of work going back to the Rams game last year to now tells me that hes a franchise QB.  
Click to expand...
I think it depends how you define franchise.  Is Dalton a franchise quarterback? Bengals thought so.  I guess he is since the franchise decided to run with him for many years. And will again next year.   Teams are often willing to roll the dice if they even think a guy might be a long term starter. This is where Foles is going to make his money.  Me, I'm about 50/50 right now as to whether he's going to be able to be a great QB for someone else. I wouldn't be shocked if he ended up being a very consistent, Philip Rivers type.  But I also wouldn't be shocked if he wound up being Joe Flacco-like.  I certainly hopes he does well on his next team. Seems like an awesome guy.

 
Kwai Chang Caine said:
Come on man. You’re not seriously using this as an argument are you? First he actually has to stay healthy enough to make it to the playoffs. 

An uninjured Carson and we don’t even debate any of this. 
Click to expand...
I'm not using it as an argument.  Just using it that maybe SOME of Foles' playoff "cant seem to lose" magic is Doug's playoff "cant seem to lose" magic?  He's playing good enough to win, and the SB win was a LOT of Foles playing great.  But perhaps the team would rally around/play their best with Carson at qb in the playoffs too?

 
Deamon said:
I'm not using it as an argument.  Just using it that maybe SOME of Foles' playoff "cant seem to lose" magic is Doug's playoff "cant seem to lose" magic?  He's playing good enough to win, and the SB win was a LOT of Foles playing great.  But perhaps the team would rally around/play their best with Carson at qb in the playoffs too?
Click to expand...
Exactly.  He was the best QB in the entire league last year and won them home field throughout. Just because Foles took them the rest of the way doesn't mean Wentz wouldn't have. Were there signs that he was letting up as the season wore on? Hell no.

 
Kwai Chang Caine said:
That’s not necessarily any different than, 7-9, 11-2, 5-6 

two losing records against one brilliant one. 

Now before you scream at me—I don’t take stock in those numbers either but you can’t have it both ways. Throw out Wentz’ rookie year and his injured year. Fine. But also throw out Foles Rams year and his second with Kelly. 

Foles has had two magnificent runs back to back years in addition to some damn good play here before. Why can’t people possibly accept he’s matured and bettered himself as a QB? Hey I hope it happens for Wentz too. Experience matters. 
Click to expand...
I agree and think he is a more mature and better QB than he was.  No question.

With most things, the truth lies in the middle.  He's not nearly as bad as he was in St. Louis.  And probably not as consistently good as he was last playoff run (If he was that good every game of regular seasons, etc, he'd be the top qb in the league which no one is suggesting he is.) 

What I am, is extremely curious how he looks over a FULL season as the starter.  He has struggled in non pressure games.  Are pressure games more important?  The easy answer is yes, but if we won that Tampa game, we wouldn't have had to win that Rams game.  So it goes both ways.  The entire team seems to play better under adversity... is he the same way?  If he was our starter next year, would he show up to the Miami/Washington games and play like he did vs Atlanta this year?  Or like he did vs Oakland or Dallas last year?  That would be AWFUL. 

I love Nick and I love playoff Nick, but there's too many 'stars aligning' factors going on here for me to want to give up on a once in a decade future QB.  I'd love to see what Carson could do in the playoffs too.  I think the team would play hard for him with everything on the line too... which is one of the main points we're using to keeping Nick.

 
Kwai Chang Caine said:
You don’t think he’s gonna get 30 mil per year? What do you think he’s gonna get then?
Click to expand...
There’s 2 QB’s now who make that and both made that on their 3rd deal. Maybe we go bonkers and pay him something insane but it’s doubtful. Depends on when we get it done too. I personally think it’s this offseason and like 22-23 range. 

unckeyherb said:
He's played very well under some schemes and like dog-#### in others (insert obvious Jeff Fischer line here).  His most recent body of work going back to the Rams game last year to now tells me that hes a franchise QB.  
Click to expand...


Kwai Chang Caine said:
That’s not necessarily any different than, 7-9, 11-2, 5-6 

two losing records against one brilliant one. 

Now before you scream at me—I don’t take stock in those numbers either but you can’t have it both ways. Throw out Wentz’ rookie year and his injured year. Fine. But also throw out Foles Rams year and his second with Kelly. 

Foles has had two magnificent runs back to back years in addition to some damn good play here before. Why can’t people possibly accept he’s matured and bettered himself as a QB? Hey I hope it happens for Wentz too. Experience matters. 
Click to expand...
I’m never going to criticize a player for team efforts. With that said the records don’t mean much. Our TEAM won in the playoffs and Super Bowl last year and our TEAM won yesterday

Individually Foles’ 7 year body of work does in no way shape or form resemble a franchise QB— at least what many deem one to be. 

I’m not just an Eagles fan. I love the sport and watch many teams. This is not the first time I have seen a QB get hot or one that plays well in big games. Nick is having a remarkable playoff run again and I love it but that does not cancel his other shortcomings. 

It feels like you guys think that if someone is ok with moving on from Foles that we dislike him. I wish him all the best but I don’t think anyone sees him as better than Wentz. I think Wentz is viewed by most as a top young QB in the game and a franchise QB. You just keep the better player and that’s Wentz. Foles is hot now and if you want to see what he looks like when he’s not hot there’s plenty to go off of. 

If you think he’s just figured it out now, than that’s valid and time will tell if you’re right or not. 

 
JuniorNB said:
Exactly.  He was the best QB in the entire league last year and won them home field throughout. Just because Foles took them the rest of the way doesn't mean Wentz wouldn't have. Were there signs that he was letting up as the season wore on? Hell no.
Click to expand...
We'll never know.  Because Wentz suffered season ending injuries two years in a row.  

 
Deamon said:
I'm not using it as an argument.  Just using it that maybe SOME of Foles' playoff "cant seem to lose" magic is Doug's playoff "cant seem to lose" magic?  He's playing good enough to win, and the SB win was a LOT of Foles playing great.  But perhaps the team would rally around/play their best with Carson at qb in the playoffs too?
Click to expand...
I can understand  that.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bigboy10182000 said:
When you look at Nick’s overall body of work what leads to believe he can be your franchise guy for 5+ years? 

Also, they can trade Foles but I don’t expect it. They’re not going to do him dirty. 
Click to expand...
If you tag Foles it's going to be around $25 million when you're already projected to be over the cap by $11 million next year.  The window would be short while any trade partner works out a long term contract with him and if the trade falls through you would have to pay that $25 million.  Possible, but not without risk.

 
Bigboy10182000 said:
There’s 2 QB’s now who make that and both made that on their 3rd deal. Maybe we go bonkers and pay him something insane but it’s doubtful. Depends on when we get it done too. I personally think it’s this offseason and like 22-23 range. 

I’m never going to criticize a player for team efforts. With that said the records don’t mean much. Our TEAM won in the playoffs and Super Bowl last year and our TEAM won yesterday

Individually Foles’ 7 year body of work does in no way shape or form resemble a franchise QB— at least what many deem one to be. 

I’m not just an Eagles fan. I love the sport and watch many teams. This is not the first time I have seen a QB get hot or one that plays well in big games. Nick is having a remarkable playoff run again and I love it but that does not cancel his other shortcomings. 

It feels like you guys think that if someone is ok with moving on from Foles that we dislike him. I wish him all the best but I don’t think anyone sees him as better than Wentz. I think Wentz is viewed by most as a top young QB in the game and a franchise QB. You just keep the better player and that’s Wentz. Foles is hot now and if you want to see what he looks like when he’s not hot there’s plenty to go off of. 

If you think he’s just figured it out now, than that’s valid and time will tell if you’re right or not. 
Click to expand...
I don't think that.  I've said two or three times this is more of a thought exercise on a Monday than anything else.  

 
Bigboy10182000 said:
And it’s still true. Love him to death but outside of the last drive he had a pretty subpar game. 

First time for everything. Oh, and I don’t care. If you told me a month ago we’d be here I would have laughed at you. This is like playing with house money to me. 
Click to expand...
Yeah both his INT's yesterday were WTF are you doing plays. Yesterday's game showed both sides of Foles play wise as well as why Nick isn't being kept and Carson is future wise. 

 
tonydead said:
If you tag Foles it's going to be around $25 million when you're already projected to be over the cap by $11 million next year.  The window would be short while any trade partner works out a long term contract with him and if the trade falls through you would have to pay that $25 million.  Possible, but not without risk.
Click to expand...
Yeah. It’s not going to happen. He’s earned the chance to go start and make some money. 

 
Bigboy10182000 said:
There’s 2 QB’s now who make that and both made that on their 3rd deal. Maybe we go bonkers and pay him something insane but it’s doubtful. Depends on when we get it done too. I personally think it’s this offseason and like 22-23 range. 
Click to expand...
I would LOVE to be able to secure Wentz after his rookie deal for 22 or 23 million per. I highly doubt that's happening.  He's getting close to 30 million. 2nd or 3rd deal is irrelevant. He's going to get whatever the top tier is getting.

 
unckeyherb said:
That's not remotely close to what I said.  What I said was that he's had two season ending injuries.  You'd agree that should enter into any discussion of his long term viability, right?  
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that this year's would have been season ending if they had beaten the Cowboys in the overtime game.  I think they shut him down.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
JuniorNB said:
I would LOVE to be able to secure Wentz after his rookie deal for 22 or 23 million per. I highly doubt that's happening.  He's getting close to 30 million. 2nd or 3rd deal is irrelevant. He's going to get whatever the top tier is getting.
Click to expand...
I think we need to re-sign him this offseason.  Not saying his value will be low, but this will likely be the lowEST it will ever be. 

 
JuniorNB said:
Exactly.  He was the best QB in the entire league last year and won them home field throughout. Just because Foles took them the rest of the way doesn't mean Wentz wouldn't have. Were there signs that he was letting up as the season wore on? Hell no.
Click to expand...
Last year was a great year all around for the Eagles.  This year he was 5-6 before Foles took over.

 
JuniorNB said:
I would LOVE to be able to secure Wentz after his rookie deal for 22 or 23 million per. I highly doubt that's happening.  He's getting close to 30 million. 2nd or 3rd deal is irrelevant. He's going to get whatever the top tier is getting.
Click to expand...
Why would he get top tier when the top tier didn’t get top tier? Lol

Rodgers JUST got 30 million this year. Wentz isn’t getting 30 if done this year. 

 
jasvic said:
And the Saints never won a Super Bowl...until they did. The past does not predict the future.
Click to expand...
Yeah remember when people were saying how the Bucs hadn't won a game yet in temps under like 40 in the playoffs and they came into the vet and beat us soundly? Yeah things can happen which is why there was a football movie called Any Given Sunday 

 
JuniorNB said:
Rodgers set the new bar.  There will be 5-10 guys higher than that in a few years.
Click to expand...
Correct in a few years. This is why I think we get it done this year. Both parties would be happy with that type of security and it won’t be 30. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
JuniorNB said:
Rodgers set the new bar.  There will be 5-10 guys higher than that in a few years.
Click to expand...
In a few years ya.  That's why it's important for us to get it done this year and not next year.

Also the cap goes up 15 M next year so it's not as big of a %  hit.  I think he gets around 5 years at 27/year.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

The Noid
2024 Philadelphia Eagles - Howie is like a bottle of Tylenol: Tamper-resistant!
44 45 46
Replies
2K
Views
218K
DJackson10
DJackson10
The Noid
2023 Philadelphia Eagles - Complete waste of a season finally comes to an end.
140 141 142
Replies
7K
Views
532K
Cowboysfan8
Cowboysfan8
The Noid
2022 Philadelphia Eagles - Leave Gannon in Arizona and let’s run through the NFC again in 2023.
115 116 117
Replies
6K
Views
158K
Stinkin Ref
Stinkin Ref

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top