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Official 2025 Kentucky Derby thread (1 Viewer)

Judge Smails

Footballguy
Now that we have post positions it's time to start the analysis. I'll be watching all the key preps, then start with eliminating the non-contenders. Usually you can eliminate 10-14 of the runners which makes it much easier to focus on the real contenders. I don't think any of my throwouts in the last 5 years have hit the board other than Rich Strike. I was there that year, had a $200 exacta box with Epicenter and Zandon, thought they were home free. Then Rich Strike breaking from the outside post runs like he had 15 buzzers on him through the stretch. Still have never seen anything like it. Oh well. Back to 2025.

At first look there's a lot of speed in the race. Citizen Bull is a Baffert breaking from the rail. If (big if) he does break he has one way to go. And with all the speed outside him he's a toss for me. Neoequos right next to him is also lesser speed. Toss. American Promise only runs well on the lead for Lukas. Toss. Grande wants to run up front but couldn't keep up with Rodriguez. Will get some play with Pletcher/Repole but a toss for me. East Avenue has never shown the ability to rate. Got caught at 1 1/8 and doesn't look like he will have much in the lane at 1 1/4. Respect Walsh but he's a toss. Render Judgement just has zero style. Just runs in place and doesn't pass anybody. Toss. Owen Almighty weak speed from the outside. Toss.

So there's 7 tosses for me just due to style. Haven't completely thrown out Rodriquez due to style - more on him later. Think he's the only speed horse who may get the distance. Chunk of Gold is slow with weak connections. Toss. Coal Battle looks completely over the top and got scorched going 1 1/8. Connections just happy to be there. Toss. Flying Mohawk highest Beyer is 84. Never raced on dirt. Toss. Publisher is still a maiden with 2 weak races at CD. Will get some play with Irad/Asmussen but c'mon - a bunch of 2nds/3rds/4ths is not a recipe for a Derby winner. So that's 11 that I feel pretty comfortable tossing. I'll focus on the other 10 (counting Baeza as AE).

Journalism is a deserving favorite though the price will be too short. Will get a better pace to close in to and should be finishing at 1 1/4. He sort of grinds down horses in the lane but doesn't have that eye popping turn of foot. Rispoli also a question mark in the big dance. And he's never traveled out of CA. Contender, but some red flags. Burnham Square is fast enough, versatile, has won up close and flying off of it. Has run well at CD, had two 59 breezing works there and gets Brian Hernandez who knows CD inside out. Real contender for me. Sovereignty is a really interesting horse to me. Has the perfect style for the race and he was coming down the lane in the Florida Derby. He's traveled well to NY, KY and FL. What I love is that he aired in the Street Sense at CD, winning by 5 going away. Came back with a great work. Obviously loves the track. Mott/Alvarado. Will be a solid price. Sandman is a $1.2M purchase, came flying going 1 1/8M in the Arkansas Derby and won going away. The problem? His 3 worst races BY FAR were at Churchill Downs, a true horse for course place. He'll get played and will get the set up he needs, but he's closer to a toss than a play for me based on the CD record alone. Tiztastic is similar. Much improved race at FG with a style that could threaten. But other than that he has a bunch of 2nd's, 3rd's and 5th's other than 2 turf wins at KD. Lost by 4 and 5 lengths at CD. Never beat a good horse and outside of the last he can't get it done in G2's and 3's. Almost a toss for me but the last race was impressive and he came back with 2 good works at CD. If he's any good Rosario will have him finishing. Smith is on record saying "come and catch me with" with Rodriquez. Always thought of as a lesser Baffert and the fact they sent him to the Wood says as much. Caught a soft field/pace. Won't get the same in the KD. Respect Smith but don't see him getting the trip or 1 1/4 miles with Cherokee Run blood on the underside. He's still likely a toss for me but what's intriguing is how strong he's looking galloping out. Means he may actually get 1 1/4, bloodlines aside. Not impossible. Baeza is a little interesting to me if he gets in. Really impressive race in the SA Derby as the likely favorite Journalism was all out to beat him. Think a son of McKinzie with a Street Sense bloodline will like CD? Me too. Will have a tough post if he gets in, though if Rich Strike can do it others can too. A Japanese horse is going to win this sooner rather than later. They are dominating internationally and we saw how close Forever Young came last year. This isn't that tough of a Derby field IMO so this could be the year. Luxor Cafe is the better horse over Admire Daytona (beat him twice), but wouldn't absolutely shock me to see both in the Superfecta. Main knock on Luxor Cafe is he hasn't shipped outside of Japan yet, but I'm not going to factor that in too much. I like the American Pharoah bloodline. Won by 5 going away at 1 1/8. I think Admire Daytona is questionable at 1 1/4. Gio Ponti/Shackleford blood lines makes me think he wants to run a mile, 1 1/8 max. They've sure raced him that way. But Luxor Cafe is a threat for sure. Final Gambit is a huge question mark. Never raced on dirt. All synthetic/grass. Did come flying at TP in the Jeff Ruby as his top Beyer jumped 25 points. Brad Cox can get horses to run in the Derby. Maybe he's just getting good. Visually he was the most impressive finisher out of all the preps - but again it was on synthetic. Has Giants Causeway/Tapit so dirt should be OK, and he'll like the distance. Longshot but not impossible if he can run on dirt.

I'm pretty sure the winner is going to be one of Journalism, Burnham Square, Sovereignty, Luxor Cafe or maybe Rodriguez with Baeza, Admire Daytona and Final Gambit those who can break in to the Super at big prices. I'm going to be going through the prep videos and listen to Mike Welsch's Derby clocker reports before making final selections, but this is the early analysis for me. Journalism will be too short of a price for me so will just be a hedge in exactas with the others. I think the other 4 will be more value. Focus for me will be Burnham Square, Sovereignty and Luxor Cafe. Interested to hear FBG thoughts!
 
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Couple of notes. Supposedly Publisher is doing/looking better than Tiztastic in every work. Still think Publisher as a Maiden can do no better than chunking up for a 4th-6th, but it definitely has me tossing Tiztastic.

Watched all the Derby preps. Only videos I haven’t seen is on the Japanese duo. Did read that Admire Daytona goes wire to wire in his wins, which won’t work in this Derby. Sounds like he’ll fly with Citizen Bull, Rodriguez, East Avenue then others. On paper it looks like they can’t survive a fast pace. But you never know. Sometimes they let one go and the others settle. That would change things. But it looks like the Baffert duo has no choice from the inside, and East Avenue is serious heat outside of them. Add in Admire Daytona and the Lukas horse and it should be a fast pace setting it up for the pressers/closers.

Pace Analysis from DRF
https://youtu.be/MrQftN37dkQ?si=a3EMg0Bb-XuAf7Ie
 
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I could be a bit hasty tossing Coal Battle. Didn’t have to win his last and trainer said he didn’t have him fully cranked and will train him harder. I usually don’t buy that stuff. The horse didn’t finish at 1 1/8 in his last major prep and that’s usually an automatic toss for me. Drawn well and could get a perfect trip. Question is will he fire in the lane. Still betting no but it’s possible. At least has the right style and will get the jump on the big closers
 
I watched that race and almost all of the other preps live. They interviewed Briley right after the race and he was kicking himself because he said he was training Battle every 10 days leading up to that one in instead of 7. He said “that will not happen again”
 
I watched that race and almost all of the other preps live. They interviewed Briley right after the race and he was kicking himself because he said he was training Battle every 10 days leading up to that one in instead of 7. He said “that will not happen again”
Just looked again. Yes I saw his post race comments. Question is do I buy it and will he make up that much ground with the training. He lost by 7 lengths going 1 1/8. Only race longer than 1 1/16 and he backed up 5 1/2 lengths in the stretch. I throw out all horses who back up in their final prep. Doesn’t bode well for 1 1/4. Grinder with a big heart but I’m going with my original thought that his best races are behind him in this form cycle. If he beats me he beats me.

Style wise I’m starting to warm up to Publisher possibly finishing strong for 4th/5th or so. No threat to win though
 
Pulling for Rodriguez but doesn't seem likely.
Not impossible at all. All depends on the break. I think he’ll need East Avenue to break bad. If he breaks well then EA will pressure him the entire way. If he doesn’t, and Rodriguez gets a length lead then it is definitely possible.
 
I love this race by Sovereignty and why I think he will be the key on Saturday. Street Sense stakes at Churchill Downs. Showed he can get position on the rail even when starting outside, take all the kick back which CD is famous for, and still come motoring down the lane. No question he likes the track, and that's a huge part of the equation.

Street Sense Stakes
 
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I'm locked in. If Sovereignty doesn't finish first or second I won't cash. He's my key. So my play is going to be a pretty good win bet ($200-$300 if anywhere close to his morning line) and then several exacta boxes, including some longshots. Biggest boxes will be with Journalism and Luxor Cafe (will also tri box those 3), but will have maybe 5 others. (Rodriguez as only speed horse just in case, Final Gambit at 30-1 (he's bred to run on dirt, sire of Epicenter and others who ran well in the Derby, working great on the surface), then lighter with Burnham Square, Sandman and a few others. Will also try a few tri's and supers with the above and several more in the 4th slot to try for a big score. I do think Luxor Cafe is a huge threat. Won both of his 1 1/8 stakes by 5 lengths. Watch this race. #11. Won geared down. Lot left in the tank. Exudes class. Edited - will have to have a backup win bet on Luxor Cafe if he's anywhere close to his line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gx1B2AuK14
 
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A lot of big time handicappers including the guys at Thorograph are liking Chunk of Gold as a live longshot in the exotics. Think he's looking for at another move forward. Don't think he has any shot at winning but if he's in the super it pays boxcars.
 
I love this race by Sovereignty and why I think he will be the key on Saturday. Street Sense stakes at Churchill Downs. Showed he can get position on the rail even when starting outside, take all the kick back which CD is famous for, and still come motoring down the lane. No question he likes the track, and that's a huge part of the equation.

Street Sense Stakes
Great race out of Sovereignty even with going wide and nearly getting run into by Sandman. Sandman's race effectively ended right there. With a clean ride Hernandez might have gotten him up for a close finish, but Sovereignty had a ton left and breezed to the line. Also liked that Sovereignty was gaining ground at the line in the Florida Derby.

Sovereignty and Journalism both seem like solid chalk plays. The question for me is who else is going to hit the board with these two if they run clean races.

So far I'm leaning Sandman (with Jose Ortiz returning after the Arkansas Derby win), Rodriguez, American Promise and Grande to fill out the tris/supers. I look for improving form in this race, and all four of these have been moving in the right direction.

Not sold on Luxor Cafe. Hasn't raced against great competition and I'm not all that impressed with his 1:52 winning time. With the shipping, I'm willing to take the chance that I miss by passing on him, even with 4 straight wins and his American Pharoah pedigree.

Baeza has until 9 a.m. Friday to get in with a scratch. If he gets in, he's in my top 3.
 
I love this race by Sovereignty and why I think he will be the key on Saturday. Street Sense stakes at Churchill Downs. Showed he can get position on the rail even when starting outside, take all the kick back which CD is famous for, and still come motoring down the lane. No question he likes the track, and that's a huge part of the equation.

Street Sense Stakes
Great race out of Sovereignty even with going wide and nearly getting run into by Sandman. Sandman's race effectively ended right there. With a clean ride Hernandez might have gotten him up for a close finish, but Sovereignty had a ton left and breezed to the line. Also liked that Sovereignty was gaining ground at the line in the Florida Derby.

Sovereignty and Journalism both seem like solid chalk plays. The question for me is who else is going to hit the board with these two if they run clean races.

So far I'm leaning Sandman (with Jose Ortiz returning after the Arkansas Derby win), Rodriguez, American Promise and Grande to fill out the tris/supers. I look for improving form in this race, and all four of these have been moving in the right direction.

Not sold on Luxor Cafe. Hasn't raced against great competition and I'm not all that impressed with his 1:52 winning time. With the shipping, I'm willing to take the chance that I miss by passing on him, even with 4 straight wins and his American Pharoah pedigree.

Baeza has until 9 a.m. Friday to get in with a scratch. If he gets in, he's in my top 3.
I like it and agree. The key is picking the others to go with those two, assuming a clean race. I don't know what to do with American Promise. Really did nothing then went to face a super weak field at Colonial. West Virginia hasn't really been a path to Derby success. But hey, he looked great, ran great, and Lukas can surprise. Just don't think he'll get anywhere near the same trip. East Avenue outside of Baffert ensures that the pace will be hot, unless several of them don't break. AP isn't faster than those others early. Grande is talented and looks like he can rate a bit but it's still a big ask for an inexperienced horse. The Wood has been a ghost town for Derby success. 25 years since Fusiachi Pegasus. Don't see this as being the year to turn the tables but you never know. Would be a great price to get in the verticals.
 
FWIW - from GROK3:
1. Journalism
2. Sovereignty
3. Sandman
4. Burnham Square
5. Rodriguez
"Acknowledging that race day performance may alter the final results" 😀
 
I'm locked in. If Sovereignty doesn't finish first or second I won't cash. He's my key. So my play is going to be a pretty good win bet ($200-$300 if anywhere close to his morning line) and then several exacta boxes, including some longshots. Biggest boxes will be with Journalism and Luxor Cafe (will also tri box those 3), but will have maybe 5 others. (Rodriguez as only speed horse just in case, Final Gambit at 30-1 (he's bred to run on dirt, sire of Epicenter and others who ran well in the Derby, working great on the surface), then lighter with Burnham Square, Sandman and a few others. Will also try a few tri's and supers with the above and several more in the 4th slot to try for a big score. I do think Luxor Cafe is a huge threat. Won both of his 1 1/8 stakes by 5 lengths. Watch this race. #11. Won geared down. Lot left in the tank. Exudes class. Edited - will have to have a backup win bet on Luxor Cafe if he's anywhere close to his line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gx1B2AuK14
I suppose I’ll have to have a saver here. I have no idea what he beat, what the splits were…. The # he ran… He was full of run 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
Just watched the Andy Beyer/Steve Crist/Brad Free KD webinar. As you can imagine they were slaves to the speed figures. They thought there were basically 2 good preps, the Santa Anita Derby and the Wood. Fastest races, winners over 100 Beyers. They like the 4 horses coming out of those races. Journalism, Baeza (in everyone's top 3 if he gets in), Rodriguez and Grande. They think Rodriguez can rate. I don't ever count on horses doing something they've never done for the first time in the Derby. So to me he has to get a loose lead or he's toast. But he's fast enough to win.

The only other horse Andy gave a shot to was Burnham Square. Only Andy liked him. Overall they didn't like the Bluegrass, thought the Florida crop was weak and slow (didn't like Sovereignty at all), thought the Japanese horses were not Forever Young types, and discounted anybody coming out of the Jeff Ruby. Lukewarm on Sandman for a piece. Don't know what to make of it - they just seemed to go after the highest figures. Not the worst angle but it's not the only one.

Not many knocks on Journalism. Worthy favorite and has a big speed figure edge.

Grain of salt - take it for what it's worth.
 

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