*** Official Barack Obama FBG campaign headquarters *** (2 Viewers)

[Sulla]

Some information about Capital Gains taxes, which John McCain keeps claiming is one of the ways that Obama will raise Taxes on millions of "middle income" Americans. Obama's tax plan only raises the the rate to 20% on individual filers making 200k plus and joint filers (families) making 250k. Let's assume everyone falls into the 200k bracket though, and look at data from the Tax Policy Center on who pays capital gains.Using 2006 data, returns with an Adjusted Gross Income of $200k or more accounted for 3% of all 138.3 Million returns, or about 4.1 Million total return that would qualify for the higher rate. Breaking that down further, 2.7% of returns had an AGI between $200k - $1M, and 53.9% of those returns actually reported capital gains. So about 2.01M returns in that income grouping would have paid the higher rate. .3% of returns had an AGI >$1M, with 76.3 of those returns reporting capital gains adding .317M returns.In total ~2.33 Million out of 138.3 Million returns would have actually paid more capital gains taxes under Obama's plan, or just under 1.7%. That 1.7% also accounted for 82.6% of all claimed capital gains in 2006. For the record, I also believe that we need to do something to address the corporate tax rate by either lowering it, allowing a dividend paid deduction, or both. The US used to have one of the lowest corporate tax rates and now has one of the highest, and it has generally been accounting for a lower and lower percent of total revenue.

I know this isn't the right thread, but I read somewhere the other day McCain is planning to tax health benefits paid on your behalf by your employer. Has anyone heard if this is indeed part of McCain's economic plan?

 

[the moops]

Barack Obama raised $51 million in July, nearly twice as much as John McCain.

McCain revealed Friday that he raised $27 million last month, his best month of the campaign.

The summer surge pushed Obama over the $400 million mark for what he's raised over the entire campaign, to $401 million. McCain has raised about $171 million, less than half as much.

Obama finished July with $68.5 million cash on hand, versus $21 million for McCain.

On Saturday morning, Obama’s campaign announced his own huge haul. Here’s the text of the release:

More than 65,000 New Donors Contributed to the Obama Campaign in July, Bringing July Total to Over $51 Million

Link

 

[bigbottom]

Some information about Capital Gains taxes, which John McCain keeps claiming is one of the ways that Obama will raise Taxes on millions of "middle income" Americans. Obama's tax plan only raises the the rate to 20% on individual filers making 200k plus and joint filers (families) making 250k. Let's assume everyone falls into the 200k bracket though, and look at data from the Tax Policy Center on who pays capital gains.

Using 2006 data, returns with an Adjusted Gross Income of $200k or more accounted for 3% of all 138.3 Million returns, or about 4.1 Million total return that would qualify for the higher rate.

Breaking that down further, 2.7% of returns had an AGI between $200k - $1M, and 53.9% of those returns actually reported capital gains. So about 2.01M returns in that income grouping would have paid the higher rate. .3% of returns had an AGI >$1M, with 76.3 of those returns reporting capital gains adding .317M returns.

In total ~2.33 Million out of 138.3 Million returns would have actually paid more capital gains taxes under Obama's plan, or just under 1.7%. That 1.7% also accounted for 82.6% of all claimed capital gains in 2006.

For the record, I also believe that we need to do something to address the corporate tax rate by either lowering it, allowing a dividend paid deduction, or both. The US used to have one of the lowest corporate tax rates and now has one of the highest, and it has generally been accounting for a lower and lower percent of total revenue.

I know this isn't the right thread, but I read somewhere the other day McCain is planning to tax health benefits paid on your behalf by your employer. Has anyone heard if this is indeed part of McCain's economic plan?

FactCheck.org

McCain's $5,000 Promise

May 1, 2008

His new ad only tells half the story of what his health proposal could mean for U.S. workers.

Summary

McCain says in a new TV ad: "Let's give every American family a $5,000 refundable tax credit" to buy health insurance.

Sounds good. But McCain failed to mention how existing employer-sponsored health benefits would be affected.

• Workers would be taxed on the value of any employer-paid health benefits, partially offsetting the $5,000 credit for those now covered by such plans.

• Experts say a tax credit plan like this would likely cause companies to reduce or eliminate health benefits for their employees.

The aim of the McCain plan is to reduce health care costs through increased competition, by encouraging individuals to shop around for health insurance and medical care. There are many who favor such an approach, and we take no position on it one way or the other. But McCain's simplistic ad misleads viewers by promising to give "every American family" a $5,000 benefit while failing to mention what he would also take away.

Analysis

Sen. John McCain's ad was released April 29 and will air in Iowa.

Who Benefits?

In the ad, he says the problem with health care is not the quality, but the cost. As a remedy, he promises "every American family a $5,000 refundable tax credit" so families can purchase their own insurance policies. (Individuals would receive $2,500.) The federal government would send the money directly to insurance providers.

Those with employer-sponsored coverage, however, also might want to know that under McCain's plan, they will pay taxes on the value of health care benefits they receive from their employers. It's not that families will receive a windfall of $5,000, but that the credit will more or less offset the increased taxes they'll pay.

Who saves money and who loses under the plan, depends on the tax bracket an individual or family is in and what their health coverage costs. Kenneth E. Thorpe, a former Clinton administration health expert who now is a professor at Emory University, says there would be "a lot of redistribution – a lot of winners and losers" under a McCain plan. Lower-income individuals could do better if they have health care through their employer. They'd pay a lower tax rate on those benefits than higher income workers. "Some people will pay more and some will pay less," Thorpe says.

Those who would benefit most from McCain's tax credit are those who already buy their own private plans and don't receive tax benefits. Those who are uninsured may find the tax credit provides enough financial incentive to sign up for health care policies. The average annual premium costs for a family with employer-sponsored insurance (including both the employee's and employer's contribution) was $12,106 in 2007, and it was $4,479 for a single person, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Annual premiums for nongroup coverage (i.e., individually purchased plans) vary widely, currently ranging from $1,163 to $5,090 for singles, and $2,325 to $9,201 for family coverage. McCain says he will work with states to set up pools to cover those who have been denied insurance. One idea he suggests is to create nonprofit entities that would contract with insurers to cover high-risk people.

Some years in the future, the tax credit may not be substantial enough to make up for the increase in taxes. "Over time, an increasing number of workers will end up paying [more] in higher taxes ... than they will receive in federal assistance through the tax credits," Thorpe told us. "This occurs because the average premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance increase much faster than the health tax credits." (The McCain campaign says the credit will be indexed to the Consumer Price Index.)

What Happens to My Health Plan?

In a speech in Tampa this week, McCain also said that those with employer-sponsored policies could keep them and that their policies "would be largely untouched and unchanged." But experts generally agree that such a plan would have a major impact on employer-sponsored health care.

The current tax system encourages companies to offer insurance, and indeed, 61 percent of the nonelderly population in the U.S. had insurance through their jobs in 2006, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. (Only 5 percent, 13 million people, bought their own insurance.) McCain’s plan to tax workers on the value of their employer-provided health care plans and provide tax credits would encourage some employers, mainly small businesses, to drop health benefits, say experts, and the proposal could eventually eliminate job-based insurance altogether.

Paul Fronstin, director of the health research and education program at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, a nonprofit organization that analyzes benefit programs, says a tax credit plan like McCain's likely would mean the end of employer-sponsored health care. "The question is how does it play out and over what period of time. ... It’s not something that you would see overnight."

Fronstin, whose institute is supported by businesses, unions, foundations and insurers, among other organizations, says "older, less healthy people are generally losers" as the system changes, and young and healthy people would generally be the winners. "I think what's going to happen is you're going to have insurance companies designing plans that are essentially free to people because they are below or at the tax credit," he tells FactCheck.org. "And healthy people are going to find that attractive." As those people drop their employer-sponsored coverage, "you see the beginning of the erosion of the risk pool. ... Less healthy people are left [in the employer-sponsored pool] and so the costs go up," which drives more healthy people out. Eventually, Fronstin says, employers will question why they're offering health care if most employees don't see it as a benefit. "That’s what I see as the tipping point of employer-sponsored coverage."

Another independent expert we consulted said that tax credits would "definitely" lead to a reduction in employer-sponsored coverage, but such benefits wouldn't disappear completely. John Sheils, senior vice president of The Lewin Group, which analyzes health care plans for both political parties, told us that the group plans offered by employers could still be cheaper than what's on the individual market – meaning not all the young and healthy people would scrap job-based plans. "I think you get an adjustment early on, and then I think it would level off," he says. An assessment The Lewin Group conducted of a similar tax credit plan found a net loss of employer-sponsored coverage for about 10 million persons, Sheils says. He has not analyzed McCain's specific proposal, however.

Emory's Thorpe told us in an e-mail that McCain's plan "would result in fewer individuals covered through employer-based plans over time. The extent of the reduction would be greater in small firms (that face administrative costs similar to those workers will find in the individual market) and lower for larger firms with higher administrative costs." He echoed Fronstin's comments that "the proposal also provides incentives for younger, healthier workers to migrate to the individual market resulting in higher premiums for older, more chronically ill workers that continue to receive coverage through their employer."

A tax expert also says credits would "tend to undermine" employer-offered coverage. Leonard E. Burman, director of the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center and head of the Treasury Department's tax policy office during the last two years of the Clinton administration, said in testimony before the House Budget Committee in October 2007 that tax-credit proposals then under consideration likely would lead to employees at smaller firms losing their benefits. "Many firms, particularly larger ones, would still offer insurance because of the combination of convenience, administrative cost savings, and pooling afforded by large groups of people subject to relatively little adverse selection," said Burman in his prepared remarks. "But firms currently near the margin between retaining and dropping insurance would be likely to drop."

The experts we consulted are making predictions, of course, and some, like McCain, argue that tax credits won't lead many employers to drop health care plans. Nina Owcharenko, an analyst at The Heritage Foundation, which has long supported tax credit proposals, says employers would still have incentive to offer health care in order to attract the best of the workforce, and people are accustomed to getting their health care through their jobs. "So it’s not something that's going to die down tomorrow," she says. Owcharenko also says McCain's plan would lead to people having portable coverage they could take with them from job to job. Those with "portable" coverage would, of course, no longer be covered by their employer.

Fronstin says large employers in particular are "hesitant" about such proposals. "They’re concerned about, then what happens. If you destroy the risk pool, how does the government get back into fixing what it may have destroyed? And how much is that going to cost, and how much control would we have over it?"

We make no judgments as to whether a heavily employer-sponsored system or one with more privately insured individuals is better or worse. But we do note that McCain, in his ad, neglected to tell workers how their taxes would be affected by his proposal. And his pronouncement that employer-based plans would be "largely untouched" is optimistic, at best, and at odds with what all but one health expert told us.

-by Lori Robertson, with Viveca Novak

Correction, May 1: Our story originally said that under McCain’s plan, employers would no longer be able to deduct as a business expense the cost of providing health insurance for their workers. That’s not correct. We initially misunderstood this point from the campaign.

Sources

McCain, John. Remarks as prepared for delivery in Tampa, Florida, 29 April 2008.

"Straight Talk on Health System Reform." JohnMcCain.com, accessed 30 April 2008.

The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. "The Uninsured: A Primer," Oct. 2007.

The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. "How Non-Group Health Coverage Varies With Income," 4 Feb. 2008.

The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation. "Employee Health Benefits, 2007 Summary of Findings," 2007.

Fronstin, Paul and Dallas Salisbury. "Health Insurance and Taxes: Can Changing the Tax Treatment of Health Insurance Fix Our Health Care System?" Employee Benefit Research Institute. Issue Brief No. 309, Sept. 2007.

Burman, Leonard E, Tax Policy Center. Statement before the House Committee on the Budget, "Tax Code and Health Insurance Coverage," 18 Oct. 2007.

Owcharenko, Nina. "Addressing Adverse Selection Concerns Under the President’s Health Care Proposal." The Heritage Foundation, 30 Jan. 2007.

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[bigbottom]

I know this isn't the right thread, but I read somewhere the other day McCain is planning to tax health benefits paid on your behalf by your employer. Has anyone heard if this is indeed part of McCain's economic plan?

John McCain: If the Issue Is Health Care, the Answer Is... Tax Cuts!May 2, 2008 2:38 PM | Permalink On Tuesday, Senator John McCain refined his health care proposal a little bit in a speech in Florida. The main thrust of his plan is still to allow a tax credit for the purchase of health insurance, including non-group insurance (insurance purchased on the individual market rather than through an employer). The credit amount would be $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families. To pay for this, McCain would eliminate the exemption for employer-provided health insurance. This would basically make the tax code tilted towards individually purchased health care and perhaps even high-deductible health care. There would no longer be any tax incentive for employers to provide health care, so many could "cash out" the health care benefits they currently offer, meaning some employees would receive additional monetary compensation instead of health insurance. The problem is that these employees would have to turn to the individual health insurance market, where plans offered are much more expensive and less generous. Responding to criticisms that people with preexisting health conditions would never be offered adequate health insurance, McCain on Tuesday added a detail that he calls a "Guaranteed Access Plan" which would "reflect the best experience of the states to ensure these patients have access to health coverage." Jonathan Cohn at The New Republic explains why the programs set up by the states to do this so far utterly fail to provide affordable care to the people who have a preexisting condition. In these state plans the premiums can run in the neighborhood of $600-$850 per month, cost-sharing runs in the thousands and the preexisting condition won't even be covered for at least several months. McCain also wants to pass legislation that would make it easier for health insurance companies to sell policies across state lines, but health care advocates have opposed similar legislation because it would make null and void the differing regulations and standards that states have enacted for health insurance companies operating within their borders. McCain also said he would expand Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). Introduced as part of the Medicare prescription drug law in 2003, HSAs are accounts to which individuals can make tax-deductible contributions and which are connected with a high-deductible health insurance plan. They offer the most benefit to those who are in the highest tax bracket and need no or little medical care, and can therefore serve as tax shelters. The Government Accountability Office just found that HSAs are typically used by people with incomes far higher than average.

 

[cstu]

The aim of the McCain plan is to reduce health care costs through increased competition, by encouraging individuals to shop around for health insurance and medical care.

Has anyone tried shopping around for health care? It's the most convoluted mess I've ever seen. The companies make it virtually impossible to compare plans by changing what is covered. Unlike with car insurance there's no way to increase or decrease your coverage or add on a specific coverage that need and instead you have to accept one of the stock plans they offer.

 

[Sulla]

Thanks, bb for the links.

So the idea is to eliminate the tax exemption for companies' share of their employees' health care payments? I thought the idea was to consider company paid health benefits as taxable income, therefore increasing employees' tax burden. Sort of like a stealth tax increase.

 

[cstu]

The average annual premium costs for a family with employer-sponsored insurance (including both the employee's and employer's contribution) was $12,106 in 2007, and it was $4,479 for a single person, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Annual premiums for nongroup coverage (i.e., individually purchased plans) vary widely, currently ranging from $1,163 to $5,090 for singles, and $2,325 to $9,201 for family coverage.

Everyone should be allowed to deduct their health care costs. That way workers can ask their employers to cancel their insurance and add the amount they pay onto their salary, which workers can use to purchase their own insurance.

 

[Sulla]

The aim of the McCain plan is to reduce health care costs through increased competition, by encouraging individuals to shop around for health insurance and medical care.

Has anyone tried shopping around for health care? It's the most convoluted mess I've ever seen. The companies make it virtually impossible to compare plans by changing what is covered. Unlike with car insurance there's no way to increase or decrease your coverage or add on a specific coverage that need and instead you have to accept one of the stock plans they offer.

Not to mention companies have far more negotiating power to get more benefits at less cost from health insurance companies than Jane Doe has.

 

[Gopher State]

Gallup: Race is back to a tie

USA TODAY

Here's some good news for those who think that no matter how much they twitch up or down, the polls seem to basically say the presidential race is dead even.

Gallup says its national tracking poll today shows:

• Republican John McCain at 44%.

• Democrat Barack Obama at 44%.

Two days ago, Obama had a 6-point lead. Yesterday, he was ahead by 3.

The Aug. 12-14 of 2,690 registered voters has a margin of error of +/- 2 percentage points.

 

[bigbottom]

Thanks, bb for the links. So the idea is to eliminate the tax exemption for companies' share of their employees' health care payments? I thought the idea was to consider company paid health benefits as taxable income, therefore increasing employees' tax burden. Sort of like a stealth tax increase.

I think you had it right. There's a correction in the factcheck piece clarifying that McCain does not intend to eliminate the ability of businesses to deduct employer-provided health benefits as a business expense. But it appears that McCain is proposing that employees pay income tax on those employer-benefits. If your employer has a nice, expensive health benefit, that would be a significant tax increase (since it would all be taxed at the marginal rate). But McCain is also proposing an across the board $5,000 tax credit for health care costs that should more than cover the tax increase in the majority of instances.

 

[Fennis]

I dont watch a ton of TV, but i have been seeing a few more McCain ads than Obama.

Im in Washington State:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/20..._obama-576.html

 

[the moops]

Gallup: Race is back to a tieUSA TODAYHere's some good news for those who think that no matter how much they twitch up or down, the polls seem to basically say the presidential race is dead even.Gallup says its national tracking poll today shows:• Republican John McCain at 44%.• Democrat Barack Obama at 44%.Two days ago, Obama had a 6-point lead. Yesterday, he was ahead by 3.The Aug. 12-14 of 2,690 registered voters has a margin of error of +/- 2 percentage points.

Percentage polls are useless.Because, you know, the president isn't elected by the popular vote and all.

 

[videoguy505]

I dont watch a ton of TV, but i have been seeing a few more McCain ads than Obama.

Im in Washington State:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/20..._obama-576.html

McCain bought $1mil more worth of Olympic ads and will be buying ads during the Democratic Convention broadcasts as well, he has to spend all the money he's raised to date before Sept. 4th.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Here's some more analysis on the candidates' health proposals from Brookings:

Under our assumptions, if the plans took effect in 2009, the McCain plan would cost about $1.3 trillion over ten years and the Obama plan would cost about $1.6 trillion.

Under our assumptions, Senator Obama’s plan would reduce the number of uninsured Americans by about 18 million in 2009 and 34 million in 2018. (Table H2) Almost all children would have coverage because the law would require it, but nearly 33 million adults would still lack coverage in 2018. Senator McCain’s plan would have far more modest effects, reducing the number of uninsured by just over 1 million in 2009, rising to a maximum of almost 5 million in 2013, after which the number of uninsured would creep upward because the credits grow more slowly than premiums.

The relatively modest gain in coverage under Senator McCain’s proposal masks a significant shift in the nature of health insurance coverage. Many small- and medium-sized employers would choose to drop coverage if their employees could obtain substantial tax credits for nongroup coverage. Also, the decline over time in value of the credit relative to premiums would reduce employers’ incentives to offer insurance. By 2018, 21 million individuals would purchase insurance in the nongroup market (including the high-risk pool), but 20 million would have lost (or refused) coverage offered through their employer. Another 1 million would gain public coverage.Many of those who would lose coverage have low incomes or high health care costs. More individuals with high health care costs could gain coverage in the nongroup market if the subsidies for the high-risk pool increased, but these subsidies could be quite expensive (and are not included in our estimates). In 2004, people in the top 5 percent of the distribution (spending more than $13,000 that year) incurred more than half of health expenditures—$267 billion. Of this amount, people without ESI spent $73 billion. Since many high-risk people in small or medium firms would likely lose coverage, the amount of spending covered by a very comprehensive high-risk pool could easily exceed $100 billion. Thus, a plan that used this method to prevent large losses in insurance coverage among the sick and needy could be extremely expensive—on the order of $1 trillion over ten years given projected health care costs.

 

[NCCommish]

It's this kind of indepth analysis that most voters will never see. It's a shame as I think it makes it clear which plan is actually sound and which isn't.

 

[timschochet]

I'm watching this interview right now between Obama and an Orange County pastor. (McCain's coming up next.) I have to say the questions are superb, and so are the answers. They're really getting in depth in issues here, and that's great.

I also want to say that, although I don't agree with his politics (at least those that I consider decisive in terms of choosing a president) I really like Barack Obama. He seems very genuine, a very likeable guy, the sort of person I would love to know. And I think he is a good man.

I also like John McCain and think he is a good man. I'm happy that both these guys are running, and in all serious, I want to reflect on the guy who posted the other day that he'd rather have Putin as president than Bush because at least Putin is competent. How wonderfully lucky we are to live in this country where we don't have Putins as our Presidents.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer.

Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway.

Very nicely done IMO.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

He looked very good. Abortion is a very tough issue and IIRC, you're pretty strongly Pro-Life. So it's pretty refreshing to me that you are fair enough to not judge the entire interview by that one topic. Thanks.

 

[Fennis]

I dont watch a ton of TV, but i have been seeing a few more McCain ads than Obama.

Im in Washington State:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/20..._obama-576.html

McCain bought $1mil more worth of Olympic ads and will be buying ads during the Democratic Convention broadcasts as well, he has to spend all the money he's raised to date before Sept. 4th.

Thanks, I didn't know they were running national ads, I just assumed they were local spots.

 

[bigbottom]

McCain is doing a great job shoring up his base, and he sidestepped the ebryonic stem cell question masterfully. But he's got to get that "my friend" thing under control. I'm beginning to think it's a verbal tic rather than an intentional endearing reference.

Edit: Great reference by McCain to the Free Choice Act (which would essentially do away with secret balllots in union elections). That's the first time I've heard either of the candidates mention the issue. He really should have expanded further on it. It's one of the biggest issues that few people have heard anything about.

 

[NCCommish]

One of those times I wish I had cable TV.

 

[NCCommish]

McCain is doing a great job shoring up his base, and he sidestepped the ebryonic stem cell question masterfully. But he's got to get that "my friend" thing under control. I'm beginning to think it's a verbal tic rather than an intentional endearing reference.Edit: Great reference by McCain to the Free Choice Act (which would essentially do away with secret balllots in union elections). That's the first time I've heard either of the candidates mention the issue. He really should have expanded further on it. It's one of the biggest issues that few people have heard anything about.

And one where he and Obama are diametrically opposed. What little I know about the bill worries me personally. I think the secret ballot is a necessary device to truly ensure Free Choice.

 

[bigbottom]

McCain is doing a great job shoring up his base, and he sidestepped the ebryonic stem cell question masterfully. But he's got to get that "my friend" thing under control. I'm beginning to think it's a verbal tic rather than an intentional endearing reference.Edit: Great reference by McCain to the Free Choice Act (which would essentially do away with secret balllots in union elections). That's the first time I've heard either of the candidates mention the issue. He really should have expanded further on it. It's one of the biggest issues that few people have heard anything about.

And one where he and Obama are diametrically opposed. What little I know about the bill worries me personally. I think the secret ballot is a necessary device to truly ensure Free Choice.

Personally, I think that bill is horrible and borderline unAmerican, but given my line of work, I'm obviously biased. Then again, its passage would probably mean more business for me.

 

[kaa]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

I have no respect for a man that tosses the phrase "typical white person" out there. That was infuriatingly obscene. Obama is a racist. I don't know how a thinking man can blank out that window to his soul and buy the pretty box, ribbon, and wrapping paper.

 

[bigbottom]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

I have no respect for a man that tosses the phrase "typical white person" out there. That was infuriatingly obscene. Obama is a racist. I don't know how a thinking man can blank out that window to his soul and buy the pretty box, ribbon, and wrapping paper.

How about a man who tosses out the racial slur "goook"? Any concerns there?

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

I have no respect for a man that tosses the phrase "typical white person" out there. That was infuriatingly obscene. Obama is a racist. I don't know how a thinking man can blank out that window to his soul and buy the pretty box, ribbon, and wrapping paper.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

McCain is doing a great job shoring up his base, and he sidestepped the ebryonic stem cell question masterfully. But he's got to get that "my friend" thing under control. I'm beginning to think it's a verbal tic rather than an intentional endearing reference.

Edit: Great reference by McCain to the Free Choice Act (which would essentially do away with secret balllots in union elections). That's the first time I've heard either of the candidates mention the issue. He really should have expanded further on it. It's one of the biggest issues that few people have heard anything about.

Yep. This was home turf for him, and he played well. I never bought into the whole "lowered expectations" thing because he's uncomfortable talking about faith. You knew that everything was going end up going back to the stump speeches and that's exactly what happened. I still think he hurts himself more by taking the hard line on abortion (which is his position so you can't really fault him), and the Supreme court than he helps himself. If he wants to drive those Clinton voters back to Obama, nothing is going to do it faster than basically coming right out and saying that Row v. Wade will be toast on your watch.

 

[kaa]

McCain a real prize as well. At times he almost sounds embarrassed to admit he's religious. Between these two I'm still voting Obama.

 

[kaa]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

I have no respect for a man that tosses the phrase "typical white person" out there. That was infuriatingly obscene. Obama is a racist. I don't know how a thinking man can blank out that window to his soul and buy the pretty box, ribbon, and wrapping paper.

How about a man who tosses out the racial slur "goook"? Any concerns there?

John McCain is a piece of human filth. His entire career has been one gigantic trail of slime. This country is in huge trouble if he gets in. Obama is a racist and a idiot, and he's still 1000x the better choice.

 

[bigbottom]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

I have no respect for a man that tosses the phrase "typical white person" out there. That was infuriatingly obscene. Obama is a racist. I don't know how a thinking man can blank out that window to his soul and buy the pretty box, ribbon, and wrapping paper.

How about a man who tosses out the racial slur "goook"? Any concerns there?

John McCain is a piece of human filth. His entire career has been one gigantic trail of slime. This country is in huge trouble if he gets in. Obama is a racist and a idiot, and he's still 1000x the better choice.

Well, all righty then.

 

[kaa]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

I have no respect for a man that tosses the phrase "typical white person" out there. That was infuriatingly obscene. Obama is a racist. I don't know how a thinking man can blank out that window to his soul and buy the pretty box, ribbon, and wrapping paper.

How about a man who tosses out the racial slur "goook"? Any concerns there?

John McCain is a piece of human filth. His entire career has been one gigantic trail of slime. This country is in huge trouble if he gets in. Obama is a racist and a idiot, and he's still 1000x the better choice.

Well, all righty then.

McCain is the guy that married into money for the sole purpose of cherry picking the right state to run for senate. The goal all along has been the White House, not serving the people. He doesn't give a damn about us. Along the way he gets mixed up in the Keating 5, and then tries to take away free political speech with CFR. He's embarrassed of his religion. He is critical of tax cuts. He's authoritarian all the way. He'll backstab his own president or party to achieve power. Freedom is a punchline to him. I can't think of one good thing to say about his political career.if it seriously took McCain using that g word for you to question him, my response is "what on earth took you so long?"

 

[bigbottom]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

I have no respect for a man that tosses the phrase "typical white person" out there. That was infuriatingly obscene. Obama is a racist. I don't know how a thinking man can blank out that window to his soul and buy the pretty box, ribbon, and wrapping paper.

How about a man who tosses out the racial slur "goook"? Any concerns there?

John McCain is a piece of human filth. His entire career has been one gigantic trail of slime. This country is in huge trouble if he gets in. Obama is a racist and a idiot, and he's still 1000x the better choice.

Well, all righty then.

McCain is the guy that married into money for the sole purpose of cherry picking the right state to run for senate. The goal all along has been the White House, not serving the people. He doesn't give a damn about us. Along the way he gets mixed up in the Keating 5, and then tries to take away free political speech with CFR. He's embarrassed of his religion. He is critical of tax cuts. He's authoritarian all the way. He'll backstab his own president or party to achieve power. Freedom is a punchline to him. I can't think of one good thing to say about his political career.if it seriously took McCain using that g word for you to question him, my response is "what on earth took you so long?"

Are you under the impression that I am or was a McCain fan?

 

[timschochet]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

I have no respect for a man that tosses the phrase "typical white person" out there. That was infuriatingly obscene. Obama is a racist. I don't know how a thinking man can blank out that window to his soul and buy the pretty box, ribbon, and wrapping paper.

How about a man who tosses out the racial slur "goook"? Any concerns there?

John McCain is a piece of human filth. His entire career has been one gigantic trail of slime. This country is in huge trouble if he gets in. Obama is a racist and a idiot, and he's still 1000x the better choice.

Well, all righty then.

McCain is the guy that married into money for the sole purpose of cherry picking the right state to run for senate. The goal all along has been the White House, not serving the people. He doesn't give a damn about us. Along the way he gets mixed up in the Keating 5, and then tries to take away free political speech with CFR. He's embarrassed of his religion. He is critical of tax cuts. He's authoritarian all the way. He'll backstab his own president or party to achieve power. Freedom is a punchline to him. I can't think of one good thing to say about his political career.if it seriously took McCain using that g word for you to question him, my response is "what on earth took you so long?"

It's simply amazing, Kaa, that everything you've written here is the exact opposite of the truth:Far from being "a piece of human filth", McCain is a genuine American hero.You say "his entire career has been one gigantic trail of slime", yet so far as I know, the man's got one questionable ethical affair in his entire career in the Senate, the Keating 5 (I'll get to that in a moment.)You claim McCain married for money; please provide evidence beyond your own assumption.You say he doesn't serve the people and that he doesn't give a damn about us; yet he's had a 50 year career of public service and risked his life several times for America.You mention the Keating 5- have you ever actually read about this? He had two half hour meetings with Charles Keating, who was a constituent, and the Democrats dragged McCain in as the one Republican so that it wouldn't seem a fully Democrat scandal. To harp on this 20 years later is ridiculous.You said he tried to take away political speech with CFR; that's fine, that was a policy issue, and you're welcome to disagree with him (I do.)You say he is embarrassed of his religion; please provide some evidence.He say he is critical of tax cuts; he was critical of the Bush tax cut of 2001; he voted for every other tax cut in his career.You say "he's authoritarian all the way"; I challenge you to provide even one piece of evidence to back this up.You say "he'll backstab his own president or party to achieve power"- I think he will disagree with whoever he thinks is wrong. He is very upfront about this; I challenge you to find an instance of "backstabbing."You say "freedom is a punchline to him"; please back this up too. IY think McCain knows and cares more about freedom than most of us have the capacity to do.And you close with "I can't think of one good thing to say about his political career." I can, and plenty.

 

[kaa]

McCain is the guy that married into money for the sole purpose of cherry picking the right state to run for senate. The goal all along has been the White House, not serving the people. He doesn't give a damn about us. Along the way he gets mixed up in the Keating 5, and then tries to take away free political speech with CFR. He's embarrassed of his religion. He is critical of tax cuts. He's authoritarian all the way. He'll backstab his own president or party to achieve power. Freedom is a punchline to him. I can't think of one good thing to say about his political career.

if it seriously took McCain using that g word for you to question him, my response is "what on earth took you so long?"

It's simply amazing, Kaa, that everything you've written here is the exact opposite of the truth:Far from being "a piece of human filth", McCain is a genuine American hero.

You say "his entire career has been one gigantic trail of slime", yet so far as I know, the man's got one questionable ethical affair in his entire career in the Senate, the Keating 5 (I'll get to that in a moment.)

You claim McCain married for money; please provide evidence beyond your own assumption.

McCain's goal was getting into the senate to eventually run for president. He needed (1) and open seat and (2) money. It was known that a senate seat was opening up in 1982 in Arizona, so he Married Cindy, moved to Arizona, and ran for that seat with her help and finances.

You mention the Keating 5- have you ever actually read about this? He had two half hour meetings with Charles Keating, who was a constituent, and the Democrats dragged McCain in as the one Republican so that it wouldn't seem a fully Democrat scandal. To harp on this 20 years later is ridiculous.

In light of everything else McCain has done it is valid.

You said he tried to take away political speech with CFR; that's fine, that was a policy issue, and you're welcome to disagree with him (I do.)

Good.

You say he is embarrassed of his religion; please provide some evidence.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9361.htmlMcCain shies away from religion talk

By JONATHAN MARTIN

Missing so far from John McCain's stump speech is any significant mention of religious faith.

Traversing the country this week on a tour of places that have shaped his life and informed his values, John McCain spoke in strikingly personal language to introduce himself to the American public.

But missing so far is any significant mention of religious faith.

Raised Episcopalian, McCain now attends a Baptist megachurch in Phoenix. But he has not been baptized and rarely talks of his faith in anything but the broadest terms or as it relates to how it enabled him to survive 5½ years in captivity as a POW.

He say he is critical of tax cuts; he was critical of the Bush tax cut of 2001; he voted for every other tax cut in his career.

The problem is this means he is trending away from a belief in tax cuts. To be for tax hikes when you're a kid 20 years ago, and then developing a strong record of being pro tax cuts is one thing. To suddenly start shifting against tax cuts at the tail end of your career is something else. It makes me not trust him.

You say "he's authoritarian all the way"; I challenge you to provide even one piece of evidence to back this up.

McCain is a republican. On the political wheel, a republican believes in social controls and economic freedoms. That's the starting point. Next we must ask "What is John McCain's signature issue during the course of his career?" That is CFR. What is CFR? CFR is economic controls applied to elections. Its "getting the money out of politics". McCain sees too much freedom in use of money in elections. So at his core, when McCain goes maverick on the party, he rebelled against the notion of economic freedom. That moves McCain towards social controls and economic controls. That plants him in the authoritarian wing. In other words, he's telegraphing that he wants to be emperor.

You say "he'll backstab his own president or party to achieve power"- I think he will disagree with whoever he thinks is wrong. He is very upfront about this; I challenge you to find an instance of "backstabbing."

Dictator types LOOOOOVE disagreeing with anyone and everyone if they think they are wrong. Check out Huey P. Long. He disagreed with FDR on the New Deal from the left saying it didn't go far enough. Its all about them. Not party. Its about their power. Granted, some genuinely good people can share this trait, but looking at the evidence I tink we see which type of person this is, and he's the dictator type.

You say "freedom is a punchline to him"; please back this up too. IY think McCain knows and cares more about freedom than most of us have the capacity to do.

CFR.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

McCain is the guy that married into money for the sole purpose of cherry picking the right state to run for senate.

That's the stupidest reason ever to marry into money. When I marry into money, it's going to be for the benjamins.

 

[timschochet]

I guess this is the wrong thread for it, but again you're wrong, Kaa, in just about everyway. However, I don't think we need to go very far to prove it this time. All anyone needs to know is that you believe that McCain's position on campaign finance reform is proof of his authoritarian nature and and his hatred of freedom. While this opinion doesn't tell us a lot about John McCain, it certainly tells us an awful lot about you. nuff said

 

[GroveDiesel]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it.""Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

 

[adonis]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it.""Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

 

[The Commish]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it.""Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

And you and I both know this isn't an acceptable or realistic answer in today's world. I found the response to be as irresponsible as McCain's "in the 21st century..." comments. I was disappointed in Obama's answer here.

 

[adonis]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it.""Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

And you and I both know this isn't an acceptable or realistic answer in today's world. I found the response to be as irresponsible as McCain's "in the 21st century..." comments. I was disappointed in Obama's answer here.

His point was that he's not qualified enough to make that decision. I don't think anyone is.

 

[The Commish]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it.""Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

And you and I both know this isn't an acceptable or realistic answer in today's world. I found the response to be as irresponsible as McCain's "in the 21st century..." comments. I was disappointed in Obama's answer here.

His point was that he's not qualified enough to make that decision. I don't think anyone is.

He doesn't have to make a decision....just take a position. The repubs are going to have a field day with this. Probably be just as annoying as the Rev Wright situation. Problem is, he, as a leader of this country should be prepared to make a decision on this whether or not he feels like he's qualified. I would have been fine with him saying that in general he's xxx on the issue but sometimes he can see the need for it or that it's applied incorrectly. To completely dodge it was disappointing to me.

 

[adonis]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it.""Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

And you and I both know this isn't an acceptable or realistic answer in today's world. I found the response to be as irresponsible as McCain's "in the 21st century..." comments. I was disappointed in Obama's answer here.

His point was that he's not qualified enough to make that decision. I don't think anyone is.

He doesn't have to make a decision....just take a position. The repubs are going to have a field day with this. Probably be just as annoying as the Rev Wright situation. Problem is, he, as a leader of this country should be prepared to make a decision on this whether or not he feels like he's qualified. I would have been fine with him saying that in general he's xxx on the issue but sometimes he can see the need for it or that it's applied incorrectly. To completely dodge it was disappointing to me.

He didn't completely dodge the abortion issue. He was general, and he expanded on his stance on abortion with his following comments.He dodged defining something that many people disagree about, as he doesn't feel like he has any supreme knowledge that makes him qualified to decide when life and rights begin. That's fine. He wants to work with people who disagree on the issue. But you're probably right that the other side will harass him about this, but not taking a stand on an issue so uncertain is a good thing, not a bad one. His choice of words might have been bad, but his content was pretty good.The

 

[The Commish]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer.

Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway.

Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it."

"Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

And you and I both know this isn't an acceptable or realistic answer in today's world. I found the response to be as irresponsible as McCain's "in the 21st century..." comments. I was disappointed in Obama's answer here.

His point was that he's not qualified enough to make that decision. I don't think anyone is.

He doesn't have to make a decision....just take a position. The repubs are going to have a field day with this. Probably be just as annoying as the Rev Wright situation. Problem is, he, as a leader of this country should be prepared to make a decision on this whether or not he feels like he's qualified. I would have been fine with him saying that in general he's xxx on the issue but sometimes he can see the need for it or that it's applied incorrectly. To completely dodge it was disappointing to me.

He didn't completely dodge the abortion issue. He was general, and he expanded on his stance on abortion with his following comments.He dodged defining something that many people disagree about, as he doesn't feel like he has any supreme knowledge that makes him qualified to decide when life and rights begin. That's fine. He wants to work with people who disagree on the issue.

But you're probably right that the other side will harass him about this, but not taking a stand on an issue so uncertain is a good thing, not a bad one. His choice of words might have been bad, but his content was pretty good.

The

Who is this group? That's the problem I have with him not being clear on his position. Well, one of the problems. What's sticking with me is he knows what his personal stance is on the subject and didn't express it for political reasons. I have an issue with that.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer.

Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway.

Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it."

"Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

And you and I both know this isn't an acceptable or realistic answer in today's world. I found the response to be as irresponsible as McCain's "in the 21st century..." comments. I was disappointed in Obama's answer here.

His point was that he's not qualified enough to make that decision. I don't think anyone is.

He doesn't have to make a decision....just take a position. The repubs are going to have a field day with this. Probably be just as annoying as the Rev Wright situation. Problem is, he, as a leader of this country should be prepared to make a decision on this whether or not he feels like he's qualified. I would have been fine with him saying that in general he's xxx on the issue but sometimes he can see the need for it or that it's applied incorrectly. To completely dodge it was disappointing to me.

He didn't completely dodge the abortion issue. He was general, and he expanded on his stance on abortion with his following comments.He dodged defining something that many people disagree about, as he doesn't feel like he has any supreme knowledge that makes him qualified to decide when life and rights begin. That's fine. He wants to work with people who disagree on the issue.

But you're probably right that the other side will harass him about this, but not taking a stand on an issue so uncertain is a good thing, not a bad one. His choice of words might have been bad, but his content was pretty good.

The

Who is this group? That's the problem I have with him not being clear on his position. Well, one of the problems. What's sticking with me is he knows what his personal stance is on the subject and didn't express it for political reasons. I have an issue with that.

I'm of the opinion that Obama and the Democrats can't try to ride the fence at all on this issue. 65% of the public is opposed to Roe v. Wade being overturned. The percentages are solidly in the 80s that abortion rights should be protected for maternal health, rape/incest, and a solid majority want them protected based on the mother's mental health and infant development issues. McCain's responses on the Supreme Court leave no wiggle room that he wants to see Roe overturned (which he hedged on in 2000), and while, as far as I know, he is still in favor of the rape and incest allowances that creates a moral dilemma if he believes as strongly as he answered last night that embryonic cells should be recognized with "full human rights" from the moment of conception.

I know Obama wants to try to draw in some evangelicals who might vote economy and foreign policy over abortion, and more generally the Democrats don't want to drive more turnout among those single issue voters; I think they need to assume that those voters are going to show up anyway for McCain as they did for Bush in huge numbers, and use it an issue to hit McCain with independents, women, and another means to help drive out the younger vote.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"?

Yes, he did, and my instant reaction was one of the "WTF?" only without the acronym. We're all entitled to give a bad answer to a tough question now and then, but I'm sure Obama will end up having that line tossed back at him a few times between now and November. It's also legitimate to point out that he should have been better prepared to say something substantive and convincing about abortion since he had to know that it was going to come up. If you get a chance to watch a replay of this, it would be good to contrast his answer to the "gay marriage" question (which I think he handled superbly) to his stammering on abortion. Like I said earlier, though, I thought Obama did very well last night overall. I have to admit that I didn't stick around for McCain's interview, which people seem to think went well also.

 

[cstu]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it.""Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

And you and I both know this isn't an acceptable or realistic answer in today's world. I found the response to be as irresponsible as McCain's "in the 21st century..." comments. I was disappointed in Obama's answer here.

His point was that he's not qualified enough to make that decision. I don't think anyone is.

He doesn't have to make a decision....just take a position. The repubs are going to have a field day with this. Probably be just as annoying as the Rev Wright situation. Problem is, he, as a leader of this country should be prepared to make a decision on this whether or not he feels like he's qualified. I would have been fine with him saying that in general he's xxx on the issue but sometimes he can see the need for it or that it's applied incorrectly. To completely dodge it was disappointing to me.

You know how he feels about abortion so why are you nitpicking his answer to a question which was deliberately set up to make him say something that could be used against him? He had nothing to gain by answering that question. If it's that big of a deal to you then you weren't going to vote for him anyway.

 

[Daywalker]

What's wrong with saying he does not believe in abortion but believes in a Women's right to choice. The Supreme Court has already decided on this and he will obey their ruling. If the Surpreme Court in the future overtunes Roe v. Wade he will obey that ruling. And to specifically nominate Justices with the intention of overruling Roe v. Wade would be irresponsible.

 

[The Commish]

I had no idea that Rick Warren was holding a nationally-televised forum featuring Obama and McCain until about 75 minutes ago when I was randomly channel-surfing while my wife hogged the computer. Having finished watching Obama's interview, I thought he did an extremely good job handling some pretty good questions. I think even his supporters would acknowledge that he struggled with the "abortion" question, but he's walking a minefield on that I suppose that's understandable. Otherwise, I thought his answers were generally pretty strong, approaching masterful once he got past the abortion issue. This was definitely the "good" Obama on display, the guy that makes people such as me, who deeply dislike his worldview, like and respect Obama anyway. Very nicely done IMO.

Did Obama seriously answer a question about abortion by saying "that's above my pay grade"? I missed this last night but heard about that comment. I know it's a tough issue, but geesh. Not sure that you get to defer those kind of decisions if you're the President."Mr. President, we have this abortion bill on your desk. You need to either sign it into law or veto it.""Uh, this is above my pay grade, so I'm just going to go ahead and forward it to God's desk."

I just heard it. It was about specifically defining when babies get human rights. He was basically saying that he's not able to answer that question absolutely, but would rather work with people of various views to compromise.

And you and I both know this isn't an acceptable or realistic answer in today's world. I found the response to be as irresponsible as McCain's "in the 21st century..." comments. I was disappointed in Obama's answer here.

His point was that he's not qualified enough to make that decision. I don't think anyone is.

He doesn't have to make a decision....just take a position. The repubs are going to have a field day with this. Probably be just as annoying as the Rev Wright situation. Problem is, he, as a leader of this country should be prepared to make a decision on this whether or not he feels like he's qualified. I would have been fine with him saying that in general he's xxx on the issue but sometimes he can see the need for it or that it's applied incorrectly. To completely dodge it was disappointing to me.

You know how he feels about abortion so why are you nitpicking his answer to a question which was deliberately set up to make him say something that could be used against him? He had nothing to gain by answering that question. If it's that big of a deal to you then you weren't going to vote for him anyway.

To assume that abortion is a trivial enough to use the bad "if it's that big of a deal to you then you weren't gonna vote for him anyway" shtick is pretty bad IMO. Abortion is a big issue for a lot of people. Me? Not so much since we have such a cluster@@@@ in this country right now, but it's on the platform. I don't believe the question was intended to do anything that you suggest. I believe the question was asked to get his position. He's been fantastic with these questions that people really don't want the answer to. He's had no problems telling teachers that it's time for a reality check and he's had no problem going into Michigan and telling people to get off their butts and get working. I don't see why he would run from this question, but he did and something about that bothers me a little bit He could have easily answered the question by saying he doesn't like the concept of abortion but he also understands that it's the woman's right to choose. Dancing around it was the worst of all the options in front of him IMO.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Tim Kaine hasn't been very high on my list of the potential VPs, but I sure like the way the handled Rove today.

(CNN) – It was a tough retort from Gov. Tim Kaine, a Democrat from Virginia.

Kaine responded Sunday to comments made by Republican strategist Karl Rove earlier this month criticizing Kaine's potential vice presidential credentials.

On CBS' "Face the Nation," Rove jabbed at the governor, saying "again no disrespect to Gov. Kaine. He's been a governor for three years. He's been able but undistinguished. I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done."

The Democratic governor — who is rumored to be on Barack Obama's potential VP list — pointed out that his state was voted best for business three years in a row by Forbes.com and said "maybe Karl Roves and the Republicans don't care about business climate, that would explain why we're in the situation that we're in".

"Governing Magazine was also named Virginia as the top governed state in America," Kaine told reporters, "maybe to Karl Rove that isn't an achievement that would explain a federal government that couldn't respond to a hurricane a Katrina and couldn't figure out how to start and manage a war."

Kaine spoke to reporters in Washington after shooting a televised interview Sunday morning.

By the way, in the 2008 Governing Magazine ranking, Virginia shares its top A- rating with two other states: Washington and Utah.

Link

 

[Spiderman]

Tim Kaine hasn't been very high on my list of the potential VPs, but I sure like the way the handled Rove today.

(CNN) – It was a tough retort from Gov. Tim Kaine, a Democrat from Virginia.

Kaine responded Sunday to comments made by Republican strategist Karl Rove earlier this month criticizing Kaine's potential vice presidential credentials.

On CBS' "Face the Nation," Rove jabbed at the governor, saying "again no disrespect to Gov. Kaine. He's been a governor for three years. He's been able but undistinguished. I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done."

The Democratic governor — who is rumored to be on Barack Obama's potential VP list — pointed out that his state was voted best for business three years in a row by Forbes.com and said "maybe Karl Roves and the Republicans don't care about business climate, that would explain why we're in the situation that we're in".

"Governing Magazine was also named Virginia as the top governed state in America," Kaine told reporters, "maybe to Karl Rove that isn't an achievement that would explain a federal government that couldn't respond to a hurricane a Katrina and couldn't figure out how to start and manage a war."

Kaine spoke to reporters in Washington after shooting a televised interview Sunday morning.

By the way, in the 2008 Governing Magazine ranking, Virginia shares its top A- rating with two other states: Washington and Utah.

Link

I don't think Rove said anything out of line - he simply said that most Americans have no idea who the guy is, and that he'd be put on the ticket to win Virginia.