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Official Captain America: Civil War Thread (With Spoilers) (1 Viewer)

Cap found out in the Winter Soldier film that Hydra had killed Tony's father. My assumption is that during his research on what happened to Bucky he learned it was the Winter Soldier who killed the Starks. But we definitely were not told at any time onscreen Cap knew it was the Winter Soldier who did it. However Cap found out it occurred at some point off camera. 

 
bcdjr1 said:
Ok, so Cap was told by Zola in Cap 2 that HYDRA would kill people and make it look like an accident when they needed to influence events. While telling this part, he showed an image of the report of Howard Stark dying in a car crash.

I've only seen Cap 3 once, but as I remember it, Zemo got information from heavily encrypted HYDRA files that Black Widow put online about them killing the Starks. I believe he said he was probably the only one who had decoded them yet. That led him to the guy who was in charge of sending the Winter Soldier after the Starks, and the Winter Soldier journal thing with the command code for the Winter Soldier. When the Russian wouldn't tell Zemo about that mission, that's when Zemo started trying to flush out Bucky with the bombing that killed T'Chalka.

After getting ahold of Bucky, he activated him to get the information about the mission to kill the Starks and where the mission files were. That led him to Siberia. I'm guessing HYDRA kept the records of the mission and the surveillance tape because that's the kind of thing the military does.

Cap knew HYDRA had killed the Starks, but he didn't know Bucky did it until he saw the video. He did know Bucky had done a lot of bad things.

Zemo didn't use the other Winter Soldier subjects held in Siberia because he hates enhanced humans. And Marvel didn't want to do another movie where the bad guy gathers a super army for the heroes to fight (IM2, IM3, GotG, Cap 2, Avengers, Avengers 2, etc.).
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Oh yeah, forgot about the Zemo comment that he got the info from the Blackwidow's files she released at the end of Cap 2.

 
One thing that kinda bothered me about this movie was how reckless Captain America was to protect Bucky. I mean, I get it that they were friends. I also get that the WS was brainwashed. But really, Cap is ready to trash the Avengers and risk many innocent lives for a buddy? That's not really the Captain America from the comics. 

The winter solider was on the other day and it really is crazy the amount of people Bucky murders in that movie. This the guy you're protecting, CA? It's crazy. Then in the end they just freeze him because he's too dangerous. WTH? Seemed like there could have been a much easier way that didn't involve crippling war machine and almost killing ironman. 

 
Hang 10 said:
One thing that kinda bothered me about this movie was how reckless Captain America was to protect Bucky. I mean, I get it that they were friends. I also get that the WS was brainwashed. But really, Cap is ready to trash the Avengers and risk many innocent lives for a buddy? That's not really the Captain America from the comics. 

The winter solider was on the other day and it really is crazy the amount of people Bucky murders in that movie. This the guy you're protecting, CA? It's crazy. Then in the end they just freeze him because he's too dangerous. WTH? Seemed like there could have been a much easier way that didn't involve crippling war machine and almost killing ironman. 
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Cap was protecting Bucky because he didn't kill anyone. The Winter Soldier killed people, but Bucky isn't in control of his actions when the Winter Soldier is activated.

And Cap didn't try to trash the Avengers. He was protecting Bucky and Team Iron Man attacked. They could've backed off or even helped Cap like the rest of Team Cap, but they chose not to. Cap didn't betray his friends. Cap didn't fire on War Machine, he was hit by a blast from Vision during the aforementioned attack by Team IM on Team Cap. That happening made Tony realize he was going about the pursuit of Bucky the wrong way, and that Rhodey got hurt because of it. And Cap didn't almost kill Iron Man. He went as far as he needed to stop IM, and then stopped. He showed that he was in control where IM was not.

And in the end, Bucky chose to go back into cold storage, even though Cap didn't want him to. Bucky felt he should be locked away even though he didn't do anything wrong, because he could be used to hurt people.

 
Just read a story about what's going on with the new Captain America in the comics. Makes me glad I don't read comics anymore. I'll stick with the films.  

 
packersfan said:
Just read a story about what's going on with the new Captain America in the comics. Makes me glad I don't read comics anymore. I'll stick with the films.  
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Yeah, but they need a way to sell comics these days. That new story line is certainly one way to do it, but I hate the entire premise.

 
I didn't say what is happening and won't say it without using any spoiler tags. But every story about it is revealing it so I wouldn't Google it or do any searches if you're interested. It's not being kept a secret. 

 
packersfan said:
I didn't say what is happening and won't say it without using any spoiler tags. But every story about it is revealing it so I wouldn't Google it or do any searches if you're interested. It's not being kept a secret. 
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He was being sarcastic. Spill the beans

 
Cold Dead Hands said:
Captain America comic spoilers! You have been warned. Enter at your own risk.
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Not significantly different from what they did with Superior Spider-man (doc ock as spider-man) for a year or so back in 2013.

With the comics there are only so many stories you can tell that seem interesting, different, or sales worthy... so they opt for "shocking gimmicks" and "massive events".

Comic books are pretty tough to sell these days with all the other mediums for people to get their superhero fixes... so unfortunately this is what they resort to.. i get it.

 
Just saw it.  Initial impression left me pretty underwhelmed....certainly not on par with the extremely positive reviews it was getting.  Felt pretty hollow and redundant.  That being said, Tom Holland nailed Spider-Man.

Still think that GoTG is the best. 

 
Thunderlips said:
Just saw it.  Initial impression left me pretty underwhelmed....certainly not on par with the extremely positive reviews it was getting.  Felt pretty hollow and redundant.  That being said, Tom Holland nailed Spider-Man.

Still think that GoTG is the best. 
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I realize this is all subjective but the love for this film really baffles me. I did like this film more the second time I saw it but I think it is massively overrated. I wouldn't rank it anywhere near the best of the Marvel films. I really don't get the love for it at all. 

 
packersfan said:
I realize this is all subjective but the love for this film really baffles me. I did like this film more the second time I saw it but I think it is massively overrated. I wouldn't rank it anywhere near the best of the Marvel films. I really don't get the love for it at all. 
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One big reason for its love is... its sits well with people who are not Marvel fans (or anti as pro DC fans) or comic/superhero fans.

It takes a lot of what makes all the Marvel movies great and puts it into an unknown sci-fi placement and removes these preconceptions.

 
The other bothersome thing is the it would seem Cap would more likely be in support of the UN/US Government directive than Tony - as Cap is a soldier.  But they needed Cap on the other side because of Bucky.  

Would have made a lot more sense if Cap was on the other side obeying orders.

 
The Dude said:
The other bothersome thing is the it would seem Cap would more likely be in support of the UN/US Government directive than Tony - as Cap is a soldier.  But they needed Cap on the other side because of Bucky.  

Would have made a lot more sense if Cap was on the other side obeying orders.
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IIRC, Cap was anti-government in the comic as well.....and I don't think the comic had anything to do with Bucky. 

 
Saw it again, and the onesided Bucky man love did get a tad old, but I still loved the movie.  I am just not on board with the galactic, magic, infinity stone crap as much which is why the last 2 Cpt America movies are my favs. 

 
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packersfan said:
I realize this is all subjective but the love for this film really baffles me. I did like this film more the second time I saw it but I think it is massively overrated. I wouldn't rank it anywhere near the best of the Marvel films. I really don't get the love for it at all. 
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Marvel excels at the everyman/flawed/relatable hero.  To that, the characters in GoTG felt more like that than just about any of the other characters in the Marvel Universe. I guess that's what did it for me.  I think they did a good job with Captain America and Bucky......but pretty much all of the other ones seem fairly stock and two dimensional. 

 
Thunderlips said:
Marvel excels at the everyman/flawed/relatable hero.  To that, the characters in GoTG felt more like that than just about any of the other characters in the Marvel Universe. I guess that's what did it for me.  I think they did a good job with Captain America and Bucky......but pretty much all of the other ones seem fairly stock and two dimensional. 
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Agree..  that's why Spider-Man has been as big of a hit as he has been.   At it's core the spider bite and the spider powers are kind of lame,  but Peter Parker and his story is very relateable...     and him not being rich and high and mighty is always what's attracted me to him over Batman (whom I still like) or Iron Man or some of the other weird galactic style people.

Deadpool is another mostly down on his luck guy also... also relateable on some level.. moreso than regular x-men

 
The Dude said:
The other bothersome thing is the it would seem Cap would more likely be in support of the UN/US Government directive than Tony - as Cap is a soldier.  But they needed Cap on the other side because of Bucky.  

Would have made a lot more sense if Cap was on the other side obeying orders.
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While this is true (and it's probably already been discussed in this thread), since the last CA movie (Winter Soldier) was all about how HYDRA had infiltrated & took over SHIELD, it makes sense that Cap wouldn't be willing to just follow orders anymore.

 
The Dude said:
The other bothersome thing is the it would seem Cap would more likely be in support of the UN/US Government directive than Tony - as Cap is a soldier.  But they needed Cap on the other side because of Bucky.  

Would have made a lot more sense if Cap was on the other side obeying orders.
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Cap being on the opposite side of the establishment made perfect sense given the events of Winter Soldier. And Tony being on the side of the establishment made sense given his feelings of internal grief and anguish over everything he's felt since the events of the first Avengers film. I think this film did a superb job of personalizing their stories into the larger story that encapsulated the greater mechanisms Ross was engineering with the Accords. I don't know what happened with the Civil War storyline in the comics and again I don't care. The film is a separate entity and as we're seeing with the current Captain America situation in the comics I'm damn glad that's the case. 

I think what Tony is essentially looking for is someone to govern himself because he knows deep down he can't control himself and it's his own actions that's causing so much chaos. He needs an authority figure of some kind in his life. To put it simply and it's pretty obvious - Tony's got some pretty big daddy issues. Now he's still going to rebel against it (as he does when he puts Ross on hold at the end of the film) but he still needs it in some fashion. Cap has reached the point where he no longer needs it and doesn't trust it. The soldier only trusts his own instincts and his friends.

All of his is pretty mature stuff for a "comic book" film and that's why I really love what Marvel is doing. I think these films transcend the genre in many ways. There's a lot going on with these films and I can't wait to see where they go next.

 
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Sebowski said:
Oh, go #### yourselves, comics. That's horrible. 
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Yeah it's as awful as what DC is doing with Rebirth. Not to get all comic :nerd: but Doctor Manhattan, and the Watchmen, are essentially going to be bad guys. And Manhattan has been behind all the crap with the New 52 etc.

 
The Dude said:
The other bothersome thing is the it would seem Cap would more likely be in support of the UN/US Government directive than Tony - as Cap is a soldier.  But they needed Cap on the other side because of Bucky.  

Would have made a lot more sense if Cap was on the other side obeying orders.
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From the beginning, Cap has not been a good little soldier obeying orders.  Rogers was originally told he couldn't be in the army, but he kept going around to different recruitment offices trying to find one that would let him in.  After the Super Soldier project was scrapped, Cap was relegated to being a mascot.  He still held out hope that he would eventually be given a real assignment, but when he found out Bucky had been captured by the Nazis, he again defied orders to go get him and all the other POWs in the same camp.  He was then given the authority to be the one to decide how to take down HYDRA.  After being revived in the present, he chafed at going on missions for SHIELD when he didn't know everything that was going on.  He openly opposed project Insight as being overreaching.  When Fury was taken down, even before he learned it was HYDRA behind the whole thing, he went against SHIELD to find out the truth.

Tony, on the other hand, has been motivated to go to extremes because of guilt from the beginning.  In the first Iron Man movie, he's a happy-go-lucky arms dealer until he's brought face-to-face with the death and suffering his company was manufacturing.  He then shut down the most profitable aspect of his company and built himself a suit that he could use to take out the terrorists who were using his company's weapons to cause that death and suffering.  In Iron Man 2, he was willing to alienate Rhodey and Pepper because he knew he was dying and felt guilty that he'd be leaving them.  In Iron Man 3, he issued a challenge to the Mandarin because he felt guilty he hadn't done anything to stop him to that point.  After defeating AIM, he destroyed all his suits because he felt guilty about the danger he was putting the people close to him (Pepper and Happy) in.  In Avengers 2, he built Ultron because he felt guilty for not having been able to stop the Chitauri before they even got to Earth.

It makes much more sense for Iron Man to take the bleeding heart path to submission than it does for Cap, who has shown he is willing to fight against anyone for what he believes is right.

 
bcdjr1 said:
From the beginning, Cap has not been a good little soldier obeying orders.  Rogers was originally told he couldn't be in the army, but he kept going around to different recruitment offices trying to find one that would let him in.  After the Super Soldier project was scrapped, Cap was relegated to being a mascot.  He still held out hope that he would eventually be given a real assignment, but when he found out Bucky had been captured by the Nazis, he again defied orders to go get him and all the other POWs in the same camp.  He was then given the authority to be the one to decide how to take down HYDRA.  After being revived in the present, he chafed at going on missions for SHIELD when he didn't know everything that was going on.  He openly opposed project Insight as being overreaching.  When Fury was taken down, even before he learned it was HYDRA behind the whole thing, he went against SHIELD to find out the truth.

Tony, on the other hand, has been motivated to go to extremes because of guilt from the beginning.  In the first Iron Man movie, he's a happy-go-lucky arms dealer until he's brought face-to-face with the death and suffering his company was manufacturing.  He then shut down the most profitable aspect of his company and built himself a suit that he could use to take out the terrorists who were using his company's weapons to cause that death and suffering.  In Iron Man 2, he was willing to alienate Rhodey and Pepper because he knew he was dying and felt guilty that he'd be leaving them.  In Iron Man 3, he issued a challenge to the Mandarin because he felt guilty he hadn't done anything to stop him to that point.  After defeating AIM, he destroyed all his suits because he felt guilty about the danger he was putting the people close to him (Pepper and Happy) in.  In Avengers 2, he built Ultron because he felt guilty for not having been able to stop the Chitauri before they even got to Earth.

It makes much more sense for Iron Man to take the bleeding heart path to submission than it does for Cap, who has shown he is willing to fight against anyone for what he believes is right.
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:goodposting:

 
Dentist said:
Agree..  that's why Spider-Man has been as big of a hit as he has been.   At it's core the spider bite and the spider powers are kind of lame,  but Peter Parker and his story is very relateable...     and him not being rich and high and mighty is always what's attracted me to him over Batman (whom I still like) or Iron Man or some of the other weird galactic style people.

Deadpool is another mostly down on his luck guy also... also relateable on some level.. moreso than regular x-men
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Wat?  Being super strong, fast, agile, can cling to/climb anything, and the ability to sense things before they happen is lame?

GTFO

 
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Finally saw this with my son last night (soccer games, tournaments, programs and end of school crap got in the way of this for a while).

Enjoyed it...not yet sure where I rank it overall.  Enjoyed the fight scenes (though, the camera shakiness feeling was a bit high in some of them).

I used to think I wanted more IM in some of these...but more and more I enjoy the fighting of Black Widow and then enjoyed Black Panther and Spidey's use in this.

Never was a comic book nerd...so not sure who would be considered most powerful.  Reading this...Scarlet Witch would seem pretty high on that to people.  Would think Vision would be as well.  

With movies like this...there is always going to be that suspension of reality.  Not just from effects and ehanced humans...but the politics.  Like...hey, why didn't Cap just explain better tht Bucky was brainwashed and he and WS aren't really the same.  or that the Avengers could defend themselves in their destruction because they kept it from being far worse and so on.  There is not enough time to tie up every loose end/hole and so you just have to take that all as a way to move the story line.

Definitely enjoyable and I look forward to Black Panther and Spider-Man flicks.  Also would love to see a "prequel" type thing with Black Widow.

 
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